Presentation at "Doing metrics responsibly: how far have we come and what are the next steps" SIG at Association of Research Managers and Administrators (ARMA) Annual Conference, Liverpool, 7th June 2017 Panel presentation based on my experince as a member of the computer science and informatics subpanel at REF2014, and subsequent metrics-based analysis of public-domain REF data, which revealed order of magnitude biases. My final conclusion is: metrics are rubbush but ... people are far worse http://alandix.com/academic/papers/ARMA-2017-metrics/