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Some thoughts on IoT
Geoff Huston
Chief Scientist, APNIC
Technology
Does technology change society, or do we develop
and adopt technology to address society’s changes?
Technology
When Meng Tian invented the camel hair
paintbrush in 250 BCE he did not invent calligraphy.
He responded to a need in ancient Chinese society
for more and higher quality written documents that
could be produced faster
Technology
When Meng Tian invented the camel hair
paintbrush in 250 BCE he did not invent calligraphy.
He responded to a need in ancient Chinese society
for more and higher quality written documents that
could be produced faster
The most profound technologies are those that
disappear. They weave themselves into the fabric
of everyday life until they are indistinguishable
from it...
- Mark Weiser 1991
Technology
Technology
The age of smartphones has left humans with
such a short attention spans, even a goldfish
can hold a thought for longer” Leon Watson
The age of smartphones has left humans with
such a short attention spans, even a goldfish
can hold a thought for longer” Leon Watson
Technology
So how should we look at the Internet of Things?
Is this merely a temporary consumer fad, destined to be
replaced by the next cool technology item?
Or is this an instance of a profound technology change that
redefines our role in our society, and will shape our everyday
life for many years to come?
To try and answer this, lets try and put this
question into some broader context of the
evolution the computer and communications
enterprise
Computers were esoteric high frontier research projects
1946 – Eniac – a numeric calculator
1964: IBM 360
Then they became a “must have” business tool
1964 IBM 360 – commercial computing
The Computing Evolutionary Path
Extravagant statements of techno power
1976 CRAY-1 – “super” computing
The Computing Evolutionary Path
1976: Apple I
But there was also the hobbyist market
1976 – Apple-1 “personal” computing
Consumer computers as a statement of design style
1984 – Mac
From Style to Mass Marketed Luxury Item
2007 – Apple’s iPhone
With desktop devices the Internet of computers was a dedicated activity
dedicated chair
lighting
wired bandwidth
large view screens
privacy
dedicated worktop
reliable power
The Internet is now anywhere and everywhere
Its trivial, commonplace and blends into all our activities
radio connectivity
battery power
hand sized
Thumb
operated
As dedicated “things” are replacing it
Maybe its about the demise of the “traditional” computer
Connecting “things” to the Internet is nothing new
Simon Hackett’s Internet Remote Radio of 1990
John Romkey’s Internet Toaster – Let them eat Toast!
Connecting “things” to the Internet is nothing new
The “old” IoT
The use of microprocessors to undertake simple
tasks is about as old as the Intel 4004 and the
Zylogics Z80 processor chips
This new IoT is just the old IoT
(with new chips!)
This new IoT is just the old IoT
with new chips!
The New IoT is just the Same Old
IoT
And we are already living in a processing-dense world:
• A modern car has around 150 – 200 microprocessor-
controlled systems, from the windscreen wipers, to the entry
system, to engine control and all things in between
• Many / most consumer appliances have all turned to
microprocessor control
• Industrial processes, logistics and inventory control,
environmental monitoring all use various forms of embedded
processing
So if this has been going on for years, why is IoT a hot
topic today?
The Hype
• Gartner Predictions
• CES shows
• Home Apps
• Car Apps
IoT is …?
• It is a generic term that encompasses a huge variety
of application that have little in common other than
a propensity to operate in an unmanaged
environment
• Its hard to talk about the IoT in anything other than
highly generic terms
Why now?
Why now?
• Low power, high capability silicon now dominates chip
fabrication plants
Saturation of the smart device market
Full stream silicon production volumes requires some form
of consumption model
• Radio Technology: RFID, Bluetooth, WiFi, LTE
• Improvements in AD convertors is providing range and
bandwidth to radio systems
• Protocol development provides ”seamless” connectivity
• i.e. Passports and Clothing Tags, Apple earbuds, Home
controllers and similar
• Actors seeking new markets
• 5G for SIMs and wide area mobility
• Smart phone platform providers seeking to enter the
car, home and work environments
• Industrial and process automation seeking to expand
market reach
Why now?
• Low power, high capability silicon now dominates chip
fabrication plants
Saturation of the smart device market
Full stream silicon production volumes requires some form
of consumption model
• Radio Technology: RFID, Bluetooth, WiFi, LTE
• Improvements in AD convertors is providing range and
bandwidth to radio systems
• Protocol development provides ”seamless” connectivity
• i.e. Passports and Clothing Tags, wireless earbuds,
Home controllers and similar
• Actors seeking new markets
• 5G for SIMs and wide area mobility
• Smart phone platform providers seeking to enter the
car, home and work environments
• Industrial and process automation seeking to expand
market reach
Why now?
• Low power, high capability silicon now dominates chip
fabrication plants
Saturation of the smart device market
Full stream silicon production volumes requires some form
of consumption model
• Radio Technology: RFID, Bluetooth, WiFi, LTE
• Improvements in AD convertors is providing range and
bandwidth to radio systems
• Protocol development provides ”seamless” connectivity
• i.e. Passports and Clothing Tags, Apple earbuds, Home
controllers and similar
• Actors seeking new markets
• 5G for SIMs and wide area mobility
• Smart phone platform providers seeking to enter the
car, home and work environments
• Industrial and process automation seeking to expand
market reach
Why now?
• Because we have saturated our traditional markets for
technology and the production capacity is being
redirected to new opportunities
• PC sales volumes are plummeting
• Smartphone sales are now peaking
• The computer technology industry is seeking to use its
existing capability to provide new product to high volume
markets
• Which means looking at low unit margin very high volume
opportunities by adding ”smart” network centric interfaces
and controllers to existing devices and functions
The opportunities
• “smart” lighting - e.g. Philips
• “smart” home appliances and networks - e.g. Miele
• “smart” power management
• ”smart” labels for retail
• “smart” traffic control
• “smart” image analysis
• “smart” video surveillance
Almost anything else that uses the word “smart”
The Variety of Life
It’s a set of discrete applications that have highly
divergent requirements:
• Radius of connectivity varies from mm to kilometers
• Bandwidth varies from bits to gigabits per second
• Data volumes vary from bytes to petabytes
• Connectivity models may be push or pull
• Connectivity may be ad-hoc relays to dedicated wired
• Transactions may be unicast, multicast or anycast in nature
• Applications include sensing and reporting, command and
control, adaptation and interfacing
There is little that these environments have in common,
except maybe a common underlying gene pool!
The IoT Gene Pool
Unix Platform
• Its small, its ubiquitous, its well understood, its cheap,
its open source without onerous IPR constraints, it has a
massive set of application libraries
• Customised micro kernels are risky, expensive and rarely
necessary
The IoT Gene Pool
IP Comms
• Its small, its ubiquitous, it scales, its well understood, its
cheap, its open source without onerous IPR constraints,
and everyone speaks it!
• But which version of IP?
IPv4 and IoT
• The “conservative” option for IP in this environment
• Ubiquitous support across the entire deployed Internet
• Well understood protocol behaviour
• Widely available APIs
Of course it should also be useful to factor in NATs in IPv4:
• Push model where the “thing” pushes data to a rendezvous
point rather than a constant pollable model of “pull” access
• Pull and Feeder models work behind NATs using relays and/or
ALGs split the primary feed from the propagation of the data
IPv6 and IoT
It’s the “killer app” for IPv6
But the numbers suggest otherwise:
• 7B connected “devices” on today’s IPv4 Internet, plus a further 7B –
20B (*) conventional PC and smart devices
• 2.8B announced IPv4 addresses
• 1.5B “occupied” IPv4 addresses
• We can probably push this model harder!
* https://www.statista.com/statistics/471264/iot-number-of-connected-devices-worldwide/
“Thing” Behaviour
Pull:
• Device is always connected and interrogated by
external agents
• A model of polling or feed subscription where the device
maintains information that can be polled by an external agent
• This requires an public IP address + Port
• It also requires a highly robust core implementation that is
resistant to attack
• It also requires some considerable thought on the
authorization model
• Device is configured to authorize users and/or
• Device uses a third party auth server
• Commonly seen in web cams and other continuous
monitoring applications (though it’s not necessarily required)
Pull vs Push
Push:
• Intermittedly connected and interrogated via external
agents
• Device pushes data to some data collection agent
• Limited connection requirement
• This behaviour NAT ”friendly” as the device is the client and the
collection point is the server
• External access via the data collection agent, not the device
• Does not require dedicated addressing outside of the local context
• This limited access model facilitates defensive measures, including
encrypted communications to the device’s agents and preventing all
third party connections
• And such devices probably should be behind a NAT in any case! (e.g.
cameras)
Security
Seen at NANOG 69…
Security
Interesting quote ...
“At last count I have about 43 devices on my LAN, with less than a third
running an OS that I can actually interact with. The rest are embedded
systems that get updated (hah!) by the vendors at their whim. Easily two-
thirds would 'phone home' to somewhere at various times. About 7 have
external access without explicitly setting port-forwarding.
Of course, my router monitors and reports on all outbound traffic - but do
I actively look at it? I should. But I don’t. And of course everything we
value on our LAN we protect and encrypt end-to-end and at-rest as the LAN
is actually occupied by foreign devices with unknown network capability...
sure we encrypt absolutely everything...”
An Internet of Stupid Things
We keep on seeing the same stupidity again and again:
• Devices with the telnet port open
• Devices with open DNS resolvers on the WAN side
• Devices with open NTP / SNMP / chargen etc
• Devices with the same preset root password
• Devices using vulnerable libraries that are susceptible to
root kit exploitation
Insanely
An Internet of Stupid Things
We keep on seeing the same stupidity again and again:
• Devices with the telnet port open
• Devices with open DNS resolvers on the WAN side
• Devices with open NTP / SNMP / chargen etc
• Devices with the same preset root password
• Devices using vulnerable libraries that are susceptible to
root kit exploitation
Insanely
https://www.malwaretech.com/2016/10/mapping-mirai-a-botnet-case-study.html
An Internet of Stupid Things
We keep on seeing the same stupidity again and again:
• Devices with the telnet port open
• Devices with open DNS resolvers on the WAN side
• Devices with open NTP / SNMP / chargen etc
• Devices with the same preset root password
• Devices using vulnerable libraries that are susceptible to
root kit exploitation
Insanely
https://www.malwaretech.com/2016/10/mapping-mirai-a-botnet-case-study.html
The Internet of Stupid Things
• How do you perform field upgrades of otherwise
neglected and unmanaged devices
• What’s the economics of incenting field upgrades
from the manufacturer?
• Who is responsible for broken “things”?
The Internet of Stupid Things
Is this stupidity even avoidable?
• The bleak picture is maybe not!
• In a price sensitive market where system robustness and
quality is largely intangible where is the motive to
maintain high quality code?
• How can a consumer tell the difference in the quality of
the software, in term of its robustness and security of
operation?
high clock speed industry + commodity components + low
margin = market failure for IoT Security
Privacy
Privacy
Privacy
Privacy
Some things we can’t tell yet
• Will we standardize the IoT space or will it continue to
be a diverse set of mutually incompatible devices?
• Will the market consolidate to be dominated by a small
number of providers and their pseudo-open
proprietary architectures?
• When will the IoT embrace IPv6, if ever?
• Will the IoT market ever discriminate on quality and
robustness?
• How do we manage the risk of coercion of these
devices?
But there are some things you can
count on…
• The volumes are already huge, and they’re growing
• “Things” already outnumber everything else on the
Internet
• Comprehensive security is unachievable
• Privacy is now an historical concept
• Digital pollution is pervasive
We now have an Internet that is a largely chaotic
and definitely hostile environment
And one more thing we can tell…
And one more thing we can tell…
It will definitely get a whole lot worse
than it is today!
A rather bleak prognosis from the
Economist in April this year – don’t
look for technology to improve this
rather disturbing situation!
They suggest looking at economics
and markets to try and address this
problem…
It’s a tough problem…
But markets may not help either…
"The market can't fix this because neither the buyer nor the seller
cares.
The owners of the webcams and DVRs used in the denial-of-service attacks
don't care. Their devices were cheap to buy, they still work, and they
don't know any of the victims of the attacks.
The sellers of those devices don't care: They're now selling newer and
better models, and the original buyers only cared about price and
features.
There is no market solution, because the insecurity is what economists
call an externality: It's an effect of the purchasing decision that
affects other people. Think of it kind of like invisible pollution."
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/02/security_and_th.html
Is this another of those massive
challenges of our time?
We just don’t have the tools to figure out how to
stop this environment being fatally overrun by these
devices:
• We can’t improve their quality
• We can’t keep building ever larger DOS barriers
• We can’t regulate behaviours of the equipment, their
makers or distributors
Why will this get any better?
It wont.
Thanks!

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AusNOG 2017: Some thoughts on IoT

  • 1. Some thoughts on IoT Geoff Huston Chief Scientist, APNIC
  • 2. Technology Does technology change society, or do we develop and adopt technology to address society’s changes?
  • 3. Technology When Meng Tian invented the camel hair paintbrush in 250 BCE he did not invent calligraphy. He responded to a need in ancient Chinese society for more and higher quality written documents that could be produced faster Technology When Meng Tian invented the camel hair paintbrush in 250 BCE he did not invent calligraphy. He responded to a need in ancient Chinese society for more and higher quality written documents that could be produced faster
  • 4. The most profound technologies are those that disappear. They weave themselves into the fabric of everyday life until they are indistinguishable from it... - Mark Weiser 1991 Technology
  • 5. Technology The age of smartphones has left humans with such a short attention spans, even a goldfish can hold a thought for longer” Leon Watson The age of smartphones has left humans with such a short attention spans, even a goldfish can hold a thought for longer” Leon Watson Technology
  • 6. So how should we look at the Internet of Things? Is this merely a temporary consumer fad, destined to be replaced by the next cool technology item? Or is this an instance of a profound technology change that redefines our role in our society, and will shape our everyday life for many years to come?
  • 7. To try and answer this, lets try and put this question into some broader context of the evolution the computer and communications enterprise
  • 8. Computers were esoteric high frontier research projects 1946 – Eniac – a numeric calculator
  • 9. 1964: IBM 360 Then they became a “must have” business tool 1964 IBM 360 – commercial computing
  • 10. The Computing Evolutionary Path Extravagant statements of techno power 1976 CRAY-1 – “super” computing
  • 11. The Computing Evolutionary Path 1976: Apple I But there was also the hobbyist market 1976 – Apple-1 “personal” computing
  • 12. Consumer computers as a statement of design style 1984 – Mac
  • 13. From Style to Mass Marketed Luxury Item 2007 – Apple’s iPhone
  • 14.
  • 15. With desktop devices the Internet of computers was a dedicated activity dedicated chair lighting wired bandwidth large view screens privacy dedicated worktop reliable power
  • 16. The Internet is now anywhere and everywhere Its trivial, commonplace and blends into all our activities radio connectivity battery power hand sized Thumb operated
  • 17. As dedicated “things” are replacing it Maybe its about the demise of the “traditional” computer
  • 18. Connecting “things” to the Internet is nothing new Simon Hackett’s Internet Remote Radio of 1990
  • 19. John Romkey’s Internet Toaster – Let them eat Toast! Connecting “things” to the Internet is nothing new
  • 20. The “old” IoT The use of microprocessors to undertake simple tasks is about as old as the Intel 4004 and the Zylogics Z80 processor chips
  • 21. This new IoT is just the old IoT (with new chips!) This new IoT is just the old IoT with new chips!
  • 22. The New IoT is just the Same Old IoT And we are already living in a processing-dense world: • A modern car has around 150 – 200 microprocessor- controlled systems, from the windscreen wipers, to the entry system, to engine control and all things in between • Many / most consumer appliances have all turned to microprocessor control • Industrial processes, logistics and inventory control, environmental monitoring all use various forms of embedded processing So if this has been going on for years, why is IoT a hot topic today?
  • 23. The Hype • Gartner Predictions • CES shows • Home Apps • Car Apps
  • 24. IoT is …? • It is a generic term that encompasses a huge variety of application that have little in common other than a propensity to operate in an unmanaged environment • Its hard to talk about the IoT in anything other than highly generic terms
  • 26. Why now? • Low power, high capability silicon now dominates chip fabrication plants Saturation of the smart device market Full stream silicon production volumes requires some form of consumption model • Radio Technology: RFID, Bluetooth, WiFi, LTE • Improvements in AD convertors is providing range and bandwidth to radio systems • Protocol development provides ”seamless” connectivity • i.e. Passports and Clothing Tags, Apple earbuds, Home controllers and similar • Actors seeking new markets • 5G for SIMs and wide area mobility • Smart phone platform providers seeking to enter the car, home and work environments • Industrial and process automation seeking to expand market reach
  • 27. Why now? • Low power, high capability silicon now dominates chip fabrication plants Saturation of the smart device market Full stream silicon production volumes requires some form of consumption model • Radio Technology: RFID, Bluetooth, WiFi, LTE • Improvements in AD convertors is providing range and bandwidth to radio systems • Protocol development provides ”seamless” connectivity • i.e. Passports and Clothing Tags, wireless earbuds, Home controllers and similar • Actors seeking new markets • 5G for SIMs and wide area mobility • Smart phone platform providers seeking to enter the car, home and work environments • Industrial and process automation seeking to expand market reach
  • 28. Why now? • Low power, high capability silicon now dominates chip fabrication plants Saturation of the smart device market Full stream silicon production volumes requires some form of consumption model • Radio Technology: RFID, Bluetooth, WiFi, LTE • Improvements in AD convertors is providing range and bandwidth to radio systems • Protocol development provides ”seamless” connectivity • i.e. Passports and Clothing Tags, Apple earbuds, Home controllers and similar • Actors seeking new markets • 5G for SIMs and wide area mobility • Smart phone platform providers seeking to enter the car, home and work environments • Industrial and process automation seeking to expand market reach
  • 29. Why now? • Because we have saturated our traditional markets for technology and the production capacity is being redirected to new opportunities • PC sales volumes are plummeting • Smartphone sales are now peaking • The computer technology industry is seeking to use its existing capability to provide new product to high volume markets • Which means looking at low unit margin very high volume opportunities by adding ”smart” network centric interfaces and controllers to existing devices and functions
  • 30. The opportunities • “smart” lighting - e.g. Philips • “smart” home appliances and networks - e.g. Miele • “smart” power management • ”smart” labels for retail • “smart” traffic control • “smart” image analysis • “smart” video surveillance Almost anything else that uses the word “smart”
  • 31. The Variety of Life It’s a set of discrete applications that have highly divergent requirements: • Radius of connectivity varies from mm to kilometers • Bandwidth varies from bits to gigabits per second • Data volumes vary from bytes to petabytes • Connectivity models may be push or pull • Connectivity may be ad-hoc relays to dedicated wired • Transactions may be unicast, multicast or anycast in nature • Applications include sensing and reporting, command and control, adaptation and interfacing There is little that these environments have in common, except maybe a common underlying gene pool!
  • 32. The IoT Gene Pool Unix Platform • Its small, its ubiquitous, its well understood, its cheap, its open source without onerous IPR constraints, it has a massive set of application libraries • Customised micro kernels are risky, expensive and rarely necessary
  • 33. The IoT Gene Pool IP Comms • Its small, its ubiquitous, it scales, its well understood, its cheap, its open source without onerous IPR constraints, and everyone speaks it! • But which version of IP?
  • 34. IPv4 and IoT • The “conservative” option for IP in this environment • Ubiquitous support across the entire deployed Internet • Well understood protocol behaviour • Widely available APIs Of course it should also be useful to factor in NATs in IPv4: • Push model where the “thing” pushes data to a rendezvous point rather than a constant pollable model of “pull” access • Pull and Feeder models work behind NATs using relays and/or ALGs split the primary feed from the propagation of the data
  • 35. IPv6 and IoT It’s the “killer app” for IPv6 But the numbers suggest otherwise: • 7B connected “devices” on today’s IPv4 Internet, plus a further 7B – 20B (*) conventional PC and smart devices • 2.8B announced IPv4 addresses • 1.5B “occupied” IPv4 addresses • We can probably push this model harder! * https://www.statista.com/statistics/471264/iot-number-of-connected-devices-worldwide/
  • 36. “Thing” Behaviour Pull: • Device is always connected and interrogated by external agents • A model of polling or feed subscription where the device maintains information that can be polled by an external agent • This requires an public IP address + Port • It also requires a highly robust core implementation that is resistant to attack • It also requires some considerable thought on the authorization model • Device is configured to authorize users and/or • Device uses a third party auth server • Commonly seen in web cams and other continuous monitoring applications (though it’s not necessarily required)
  • 37. Pull vs Push Push: • Intermittedly connected and interrogated via external agents • Device pushes data to some data collection agent • Limited connection requirement • This behaviour NAT ”friendly” as the device is the client and the collection point is the server • External access via the data collection agent, not the device • Does not require dedicated addressing outside of the local context • This limited access model facilitates defensive measures, including encrypted communications to the device’s agents and preventing all third party connections • And such devices probably should be behind a NAT in any case! (e.g. cameras)
  • 39. Seen at NANOG 69…
  • 40. Security Interesting quote ... “At last count I have about 43 devices on my LAN, with less than a third running an OS that I can actually interact with. The rest are embedded systems that get updated (hah!) by the vendors at their whim. Easily two- thirds would 'phone home' to somewhere at various times. About 7 have external access without explicitly setting port-forwarding. Of course, my router monitors and reports on all outbound traffic - but do I actively look at it? I should. But I don’t. And of course everything we value on our LAN we protect and encrypt end-to-end and at-rest as the LAN is actually occupied by foreign devices with unknown network capability... sure we encrypt absolutely everything...”
  • 41. An Internet of Stupid Things We keep on seeing the same stupidity again and again: • Devices with the telnet port open • Devices with open DNS resolvers on the WAN side • Devices with open NTP / SNMP / chargen etc • Devices with the same preset root password • Devices using vulnerable libraries that are susceptible to root kit exploitation Insanely
  • 42. An Internet of Stupid Things We keep on seeing the same stupidity again and again: • Devices with the telnet port open • Devices with open DNS resolvers on the WAN side • Devices with open NTP / SNMP / chargen etc • Devices with the same preset root password • Devices using vulnerable libraries that are susceptible to root kit exploitation Insanely https://www.malwaretech.com/2016/10/mapping-mirai-a-botnet-case-study.html
  • 43. An Internet of Stupid Things We keep on seeing the same stupidity again and again: • Devices with the telnet port open • Devices with open DNS resolvers on the WAN side • Devices with open NTP / SNMP / chargen etc • Devices with the same preset root password • Devices using vulnerable libraries that are susceptible to root kit exploitation Insanely https://www.malwaretech.com/2016/10/mapping-mirai-a-botnet-case-study.html
  • 44. The Internet of Stupid Things • How do you perform field upgrades of otherwise neglected and unmanaged devices • What’s the economics of incenting field upgrades from the manufacturer? • Who is responsible for broken “things”?
  • 45. The Internet of Stupid Things Is this stupidity even avoidable? • The bleak picture is maybe not! • In a price sensitive market where system robustness and quality is largely intangible where is the motive to maintain high quality code? • How can a consumer tell the difference in the quality of the software, in term of its robustness and security of operation? high clock speed industry + commodity components + low margin = market failure for IoT Security
  • 50. Some things we can’t tell yet • Will we standardize the IoT space or will it continue to be a diverse set of mutually incompatible devices? • Will the market consolidate to be dominated by a small number of providers and their pseudo-open proprietary architectures? • When will the IoT embrace IPv6, if ever? • Will the IoT market ever discriminate on quality and robustness? • How do we manage the risk of coercion of these devices?
  • 51. But there are some things you can count on… • The volumes are already huge, and they’re growing • “Things” already outnumber everything else on the Internet • Comprehensive security is unachievable • Privacy is now an historical concept • Digital pollution is pervasive We now have an Internet that is a largely chaotic and definitely hostile environment
  • 52. And one more thing we can tell…
  • 53. And one more thing we can tell… It will definitely get a whole lot worse than it is today!
  • 54. A rather bleak prognosis from the Economist in April this year – don’t look for technology to improve this rather disturbing situation! They suggest looking at economics and markets to try and address this problem… It’s a tough problem…
  • 55. But markets may not help either… "The market can't fix this because neither the buyer nor the seller cares. The owners of the webcams and DVRs used in the denial-of-service attacks don't care. Their devices were cheap to buy, they still work, and they don't know any of the victims of the attacks. The sellers of those devices don't care: They're now selling newer and better models, and the original buyers only cared about price and features. There is no market solution, because the insecurity is what economists call an externality: It's an effect of the purchasing decision that affects other people. Think of it kind of like invisible pollution." https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/02/security_and_th.html
  • 56. Is this another of those massive challenges of our time? We just don’t have the tools to figure out how to stop this environment being fatally overrun by these devices: • We can’t improve their quality • We can’t keep building ever larger DOS barriers • We can’t regulate behaviours of the equipment, their makers or distributors
  • 57. Why will this get any better?
  • 59.