The document provides guidance on choosing protocols and dispositions for various pediatric patient cases presented to a telehealth triage nurse. It describes 9 calls involving children with various complaints such as crying, eye irritation, ear pulling, mouth bleeding, wheezing, swallowed objects, abdominal pain, limited arm movement, and provides the guidelines and rationales chosen by the nurse. It emphasizes the importance of actively ruling out serious conditions, considering 911 in some respiratory cases, and giving instructions to reduce injuries like subluxed joints if emergency department access is not possible.
Expectations and Communicating with Your Healthcare TeambbyRN
A tutorial for people entering the US healthcare system for diagnosis and treatment. Realistic expectations are revealed and discussed, as well as the necessity of patients asking questions, listening, and making autonomous decisions based on physicians' expertise.
A talk I gave in Al-Zaem Al-Azhary university on Thursday, 15/5/2014
Outline:
What do we mean by breaking bad news (BBN)?
Which news is bad? really bad? Like really, really bad !
Why should we care about BBN?
Ethical
Professional
Legal
BBN as part of the Communication Cycle/Pathway
Practical approaches to BBN:
SPIKES
ABCDE
BREAKS
The Do Not's in BBN
BBN - Breaking Bad News is difficult task for Junior doctors in India as it was not in the Curriculum unlike Western countries. So this slide will give you the Facts / Methods with Description of one method & Key points.
A series of practical resources to enable leaders and professionals with direct reach to communities and an established, trusted relationship, for example community leaders, social prescribing link workers and faith leaders, to support their communities to reduce their risk of becoming seriously ill from Covid-19
Lecture 14 & 15 truth telling and breaking bad news (BBN)Dr Ghaiath Hussein
A lecture on truth telling & breaking bad news (BBN) delivered to Alfarabi Medical College undergraduate medical students in the week starting 04.12.2016
Expectations and Communicating with Your Healthcare TeambbyRN
A tutorial for people entering the US healthcare system for diagnosis and treatment. Realistic expectations are revealed and discussed, as well as the necessity of patients asking questions, listening, and making autonomous decisions based on physicians' expertise.
A talk I gave in Al-Zaem Al-Azhary university on Thursday, 15/5/2014
Outline:
What do we mean by breaking bad news (BBN)?
Which news is bad? really bad? Like really, really bad !
Why should we care about BBN?
Ethical
Professional
Legal
BBN as part of the Communication Cycle/Pathway
Practical approaches to BBN:
SPIKES
ABCDE
BREAKS
The Do Not's in BBN
BBN - Breaking Bad News is difficult task for Junior doctors in India as it was not in the Curriculum unlike Western countries. So this slide will give you the Facts / Methods with Description of one method & Key points.
A series of practical resources to enable leaders and professionals with direct reach to communities and an established, trusted relationship, for example community leaders, social prescribing link workers and faith leaders, to support their communities to reduce their risk of becoming seriously ill from Covid-19
Lecture 14 & 15 truth telling and breaking bad news (BBN)Dr Ghaiath Hussein
A lecture on truth telling & breaking bad news (BBN) delivered to Alfarabi Medical College undergraduate medical students in the week starting 04.12.2016
micro teaching on communication m.sc nursing.pdfAnurag Sharma
Microteaching is a unique model of practice teaching. It is a viable instrument for the. desired change in the teaching behavior or the behavior potential which, in specified types of real. classroom situations, tends to facilitate the achievement of specified types of objectives.
Acute scrotum is a general term referring to an emergency condition affecting the contents or the wall of the scrotum.
There are a number of conditions that present acutely, predominantly with pain and/or swelling
A careful and detailed history and examination, and in some cases, investigations allow differentiation between these diagnoses. A prompt diagnosis is essential as the patient may require urgent surgical intervention
Testicular torsion refers to twisting of the spermatic cord, causing ischaemia of the testicle.
Testicular torsion results from inadequate fixation of the testis to the tunica vaginalis producing ischemia from reduced arterial inflow and venous outflow obstruction.
The prevalence of testicular torsion in adult patients hospitalized with acute scrotal pain is approximately 25 to 50 percent
Ethanol (CH3CH2OH), or beverage alcohol, is a two-carbon alcohol
that is rapidly distributed in the body and brain. Ethanol alters many
neurochemical systems and has rewarding and addictive properties. It
is the oldest recreational drug and likely contributes to more morbidity,
mortality, and public health costs than all illicit drugs combined. The
5th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders
(DSM-5) integrates alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence into a single
disorder called alcohol use disorder (AUD), with mild, moderate,
and severe subclassifications (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).
In the DSM-5, all types of substance abuse and dependence have been
combined into a single substance use disorder (SUD) on a continuum
from mild to severe. A diagnosis of AUD requires that at least two of
the 11 DSM-5 behaviors be present within a 12-month period (mild
AUD: 2–3 criteria; moderate AUD: 4–5 criteria; severe AUD: 6–11 criteria).
The four main behavioral effects of AUD are impaired control over
drinking, negative social consequences, risky use, and altered physiological
effects (tolerance, withdrawal). This chapter presents an overview
of the prevalence and harmful consequences of AUD in the U.S.,
the systemic nature of the disease, neurocircuitry and stages of AUD,
comorbidities, fetal alcohol spectrum disorders, genetic risk factors, and
pharmacotherapies for AUD.
Title: Sense of Taste
Presenter: Dr. Faiza, Assistant Professor of Physiology
Qualifications:
MBBS (Best Graduate, AIMC Lahore)
FCPS Physiology
ICMT, CHPE, DHPE (STMU)
MPH (GC University, Faisalabad)
MBA (Virtual University of Pakistan)
Learning Objectives:
Describe the structure and function of taste buds.
Describe the relationship between the taste threshold and taste index of common substances.
Explain the chemical basis and signal transduction of taste perception for each type of primary taste sensation.
Recognize different abnormalities of taste perception and their causes.
Key Topics:
Significance of Taste Sensation:
Differentiation between pleasant and harmful food
Influence on behavior
Selection of food based on metabolic needs
Receptors of Taste:
Taste buds on the tongue
Influence of sense of smell, texture of food, and pain stimulation (e.g., by pepper)
Primary and Secondary Taste Sensations:
Primary taste sensations: Sweet, Sour, Salty, Bitter, Umami
Chemical basis and signal transduction mechanisms for each taste
Taste Threshold and Index:
Taste threshold values for Sweet (sucrose), Salty (NaCl), Sour (HCl), and Bitter (Quinine)
Taste index relationship: Inversely proportional to taste threshold
Taste Blindness:
Inability to taste certain substances, particularly thiourea compounds
Example: Phenylthiocarbamide
Structure and Function of Taste Buds:
Composition: Epithelial cells, Sustentacular/Supporting cells, Taste cells, Basal cells
Features: Taste pores, Taste hairs/microvilli, and Taste nerve fibers
Location of Taste Buds:
Found in papillae of the tongue (Fungiform, Circumvallate, Foliate)
Also present on the palate, tonsillar pillars, epiglottis, and proximal esophagus
Mechanism of Taste Stimulation:
Interaction of taste substances with receptors on microvilli
Signal transduction pathways for Umami, Sweet, Bitter, Sour, and Salty tastes
Taste Sensitivity and Adaptation:
Decrease in sensitivity with age
Rapid adaptation of taste sensation
Role of Saliva in Taste:
Dissolution of tastants to reach receptors
Washing away the stimulus
Taste Preferences and Aversions:
Mechanisms behind taste preference and aversion
Influence of receptors and neural pathways
Impact of Sensory Nerve Damage:
Degeneration of taste buds if the sensory nerve fiber is cut
Abnormalities of Taste Detection:
Conditions: Ageusia, Hypogeusia, Dysgeusia (parageusia)
Causes: Nerve damage, neurological disorders, infections, poor oral hygiene, adverse drug effects, deficiencies, aging, tobacco use, altered neurotransmitter levels
Neurotransmitters and Taste Threshold:
Effects of serotonin (5-HT) and norepinephrine (NE) on taste sensitivity
Supertasters:
25% of the population with heightened sensitivity to taste, especially bitterness
Increased number of fungiform papillae
ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IN HEALTHCARE.pdfAnujkumaranit
Artificial intelligence (AI) refers to the simulation of human intelligence processes by machines, especially computer systems. It encompasses tasks such as learning, reasoning, problem-solving, perception, and language understanding. AI technologies are revolutionizing various fields, from healthcare to finance, by enabling machines to perform tasks that typically require human intelligence.
Report Back from SGO 2024: What’s the Latest in Cervical Cancer?bkling
Are you curious about what’s new in cervical cancer research or unsure what the findings mean? Join Dr. Emily Ko, a gynecologic oncologist at Penn Medicine, to learn about the latest updates from the Society of Gynecologic Oncology (SGO) 2024 Annual Meeting on Women’s Cancer. Dr. Ko will discuss what the research presented at the conference means for you and answer your questions about the new developments.
Explore natural remedies for syphilis treatment in Singapore. Discover alternative therapies, herbal remedies, and lifestyle changes that may complement conventional treatments. Learn about holistic approaches to managing syphilis symptoms and supporting overall health.
Pulmonary Thromboembolism - etilogy, types, medical- Surgical and nursing man...VarunMahajani
Disruption of blood supply to lung alveoli due to blockage of one or more pulmonary blood vessels is called as Pulmonary thromboembolism. In this presentation we will discuss its causes, types and its management in depth.
The prostate is an exocrine gland of the male mammalian reproductive system
It is a walnut-sized gland that forms part of the male reproductive system and is located in front of the rectum and just below the urinary bladder
Function is to store and secrete a clear, slightly alkaline fluid that constitutes 10-30% of the volume of the seminal fluid that along with the spermatozoa, constitutes semen
A healthy human prostate measures (4cm-vertical, by 3cm-horizontal, 2cm ant-post ).
It surrounds the urethra just below the urinary bladder. It has anterior, median, posterior and two lateral lobes
It’s work is regulated by androgens which are responsible for male sex characteristics
Generalised disease of the prostate due to hormonal derangement which leads to non malignant enlargement of the gland (increase in the number of epithelial cells and stromal tissue)to cause compression of the urethra leading to symptoms (LUTS
Lung Cancer: Artificial Intelligence, Synergetics, Complex System Analysis, S...Oleg Kshivets
RESULTS: Overall life span (LS) was 2252.1±1742.5 days and cumulative 5-year survival (5YS) reached 73.2%, 10 years – 64.8%, 20 years – 42.5%. 513 LCP lived more than 5 years (LS=3124.6±1525.6 days), 148 LCP – more than 10 years (LS=5054.4±1504.1 days).199 LCP died because of LC (LS=562.7±374.5 days). 5YS of LCP after bi/lobectomies was significantly superior in comparison with LCP after pneumonectomies (78.1% vs.63.7%, P=0.00001 by log-rank test). AT significantly improved 5YS (66.3% vs. 34.8%) (P=0.00000 by log-rank test) only for LCP with N1-2. Cox modeling displayed that 5YS of LCP significantly depended on: phase transition (PT) early-invasive LC in terms of synergetics, PT N0—N12, cell ratio factors (ratio between cancer cells- CC and blood cells subpopulations), G1-3, histology, glucose, AT, blood cell circuit, prothrombin index, heparin tolerance, recalcification time (P=0.000-0.038). Neural networks, genetic algorithm selection and bootstrap simulation revealed relationships between 5YS and PT early-invasive LC (rank=1), PT N0—N12 (rank=2), thrombocytes/CC (3), erythrocytes/CC (4), eosinophils/CC (5), healthy cells/CC (6), lymphocytes/CC (7), segmented neutrophils/CC (8), stick neutrophils/CC (9), monocytes/CC (10); leucocytes/CC (11). Correct prediction of 5YS was 100% by neural networks computing (area under ROC curve=1.0; error=0.0).
CONCLUSIONS: 5YS of LCP after radical procedures significantly depended on: 1) PT early-invasive cancer; 2) PT N0--N12; 3) cell ratio factors; 4) blood cell circuit; 5) biochemical factors; 6) hemostasis system; 7) AT; 8) LC characteristics; 9) LC cell dynamics; 10) surgery type: lobectomy/pneumonectomy; 11) anthropometric data. Optimal diagnosis and treatment strategies for LC are: 1) screening and early detection of LC; 2) availability of experienced thoracic surgeons because of complexity of radical procedures; 3) aggressive en block surgery and adequate lymph node dissection for completeness; 4) precise prediction; 5) adjuvant chemoimmunoradiotherapy for LCP with unfavorable prognosis.
Tom Selleck Health: A Comprehensive Look at the Iconic Actor’s Wellness Journeygreendigital
Tom Selleck, an enduring figure in Hollywood. has captivated audiences for decades with his rugged charm, iconic moustache. and memorable roles in television and film. From his breakout role as Thomas Magnum in Magnum P.I. to his current portrayal of Frank Reagan in Blue Bloods. Selleck's career has spanned over 50 years. But beyond his professional achievements. fans have often been curious about Tom Selleck Health. especially as he has aged in the public eye.
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Introduction
Many have been interested in Tom Selleck health. not only because of his enduring presence on screen but also because of the challenges. and lifestyle choices he has faced and made over the years. This article delves into the various aspects of Tom Selleck health. exploring his fitness regimen, diet, mental health. and the challenges he has encountered as he ages. We'll look at how he maintains his well-being. the health issues he has faced, and his approach to ageing .
Early Life and Career
Childhood and Athletic Beginnings
Tom Selleck was born on January 29, 1945, in Detroit, Michigan, and grew up in Sherman Oaks, California. From an early age, he was involved in sports, particularly basketball. which played a significant role in his physical development. His athletic pursuits continued into college. where he attended the University of Southern California (USC) on a basketball scholarship. This early involvement in sports laid a strong foundation for his physical health and disciplined lifestyle.
Transition to Acting
Selleck's transition from an athlete to an actor came with its physical demands. His first significant role in "Magnum P.I." required him to perform various stunts and maintain a fit appearance. This role, which he played from 1980 to 1988. necessitated a rigorous fitness routine to meet the show's demands. setting the stage for his long-term commitment to health and wellness.
Fitness Regimen
Workout Routine
Tom Selleck health and fitness regimen has evolved. adapting to his changing roles and age. During his "Magnum, P.I." days. Selleck's workouts were intense and focused on building and maintaining muscle mass. His routine included weightlifting, cardiovascular exercises. and specific training for the stunts he performed on the show.
Selleck adjusted his fitness routine as he aged to suit his body's needs. Today, his workouts focus on maintaining flexibility, strength, and cardiovascular health. He incorporates low-impact exercises such as swimming, walking, and light weightlifting. This balanced approach helps him stay fit without putting undue strain on his joints and muscles.
Importance of Flexibility and Mobility
In recent years, Selleck has emphasized the importance of flexibility and mobility in his fitness regimen. Understanding the natural decline in muscle mass and joint flexibility with age. he includes stretching and yoga in his routine. These practices help prevent injuries, improve posture, and maintain mobilit
1. What Protocol Would You
Choose?
Orientation RPTC- Source: Barton Scmitt, MD, as presented at Reach
for the Stars 2011 National Telehealth Conference
2. How to Choose
• You are the triage nurse for PhoneRN. It is 8pm on a weekday
evening.
• Triage: Sort the patient into one of the following 3 levels of care:
• God to ED Now
• See in office tomorrow
• Home care
3. Call 1: Tucker, 6 Week Old Male
• Presenting Complaint: “crying more than usual”
• Fussier than normal for 2 days
• Difficult to console; cries more when held
• Popping sound of right rib cage with movement
• Alert, feeding well, normal urine output, breathing well
• Choose the best guideline and disposition
4. Tucker, 6 Week Old
• Guideline: Crying- before 3 months old
• Disposition: Go to ED Now
• Reason: Injury suspected (r/o child abuse)
5. ED Findings
• 3 rib fractures
• Skeletal survey: negative for other fractures
• Head CT: no subdurals
• FOC (father of child): Admitted squeezing baby hard when he was
crying a few days ago
6. Child Abuse and Crying
• Inconsolable crying is the #1 trigger for lethal-outcome child
abuse.
• Usual mechanism: Shaken baby syndrome
• SBS main symptoms: extreme irritability, vomiting, seizure, apnea,
bulging AF
• Goal: Detect minor inflicted injuries before SBS occurs
7. Clues to High Risk for SBS
• Inconsolable crying
• Angry comments about baby
• Admits fear of hurting baby
• Has spanked baby
• Unexplained bruise, swelling, or mark
• Paradoxical response to being held or moved
• Bruises before 4 months old
• Pierce MC, Pediatrics 2010; 125: 67-74
8. Call 2: Greg, 12 Year Old Boy
• Presenting complaint: “Blisters on eyeball”
• Present x 1 hour, Started during a bike ride
• Eyes very itchy, bloodshot and watery, blisters on sclera
• Nasal symptoms also present. Has hay fever and didn’t take
anything today
• Best guideline?
9. Greg, 12 Year Old Boy
• Eye allergy guideline
• Serious causes to consider: Chemical eye, FB
• Disposition: See tomorrow in office
• Reason: Sacs of clear fluid (blisters) on whites of eyes or inner lids
• R/O: chemosis or allergic cysts
10. Chemosis and Allergic Conjunctivitis
• Definition: sever reaction of the eye to allergen, manifested by
edema of the bulbar conjunctiva
• Cause: high pollen count or pollen load
• CC: whites of eyes look swollen or have clear blisters. Cyst size: 4
to 10 mm
• Treatment: cold wet cloth, oral antihistamines, and purchased
special eyedrops
• Ketotifen (OTC Zaditor) eyedrops can usually eliminate chemosis
11. Call 2: Jada, 2 year old girl
• Presenting Complain: “Pokes at her right ear. Could she have an
ear infection?”
• Onset: 3 days ago
• No fever, cold, cough, runny nose, ear discharge
• No pain, crying, or night awakenings
• PMH: otisis media once at 7 months
• Best Guideline?
12. Jada, 2 Year Old Girl
• Ear: Pulling at or itching guideline
• Disposition: Home care
• Reason: Ear pulling without other symptoms is not a sign of an ear
infection
• Additional history: Uses Q-tips
• Risk: perforated eardrum
13. Ear Pulling in Young Children
• 1992 study: 100 children with ear pulling as the chief complaint where
examined.
• Age: 11 months median (SD 8 months)
• Challenge: most children under age 2 unable to confirm or deny
presence of an earache.
• Challenge: most children under age 2 unable to confirm or deny
presence of an earache.
• Results (diagnostic groups): normal ear canal and eardrum 69%,
impacted earwax 12%, acute otitis media 12%, serious OM 7%, FB none.
• Conclusion: simple ear pulling without other symptoms of an illness or
infection was never associated with an ear infection.
• Baker RB Pediatrics. 1992: 1006-1007
14. Call 4: Sandy, 3 Year Old Girl
• Presenting complaint: “lip wont stop bleeding”
• Fell 20 minutes ago at her BD party
• Location: Inside the upper lip
• Amount: small, but hasn’t stopped
• Also small scrape on outer lip. Denies head trauma
• Best guideline?
15. Sandy, 3 Year Old Girl
• Trauma- Mouth Guideline
• Caller denies serious symptoms:
• Fall with object in mouth
• Gaping cut of outer lip
• Tooth damage
• Best disposition?
16. Cut of Upper Labial Frenulum
• Disposition: Home Care
• Reason: Torn upper labial frenulum always heals perfectly without
sutures
• Reassurance: bleeding from the site always stops
• Caution: Do not pull the lip out again to look at it (Reason: the
bleeding will start again)
• It’s safe to look at it after 3 days
17. Call 5: Zack, 4 Month Old
• Presenting complaint: “Hard to clean out his nose.”
• First cold started 8 days ago
• Mild cough, no fever, cloudy nasal discharge, nose seems blocked,
cries when uses bulb syringe
• Drinking less but wet diapers every 4 hours, alert, not in pain
• Best guideline?
18. Zack, 4 Month Old Boy
• Colds guideline
• Disposition: See Tomorrow in Office
• Reason: ear infection suspected by triage nurse
• Nurse discusses how to use saline with a bulb syringe
19. Office Findings
• Office next morning: RR 60, wheezing, mild retractions, o2 sat
86%
• Admitted for bronchitis
• During the night: frequent awakenings, unable to sleep laying
down, parents took turns holding upright all night
• Nurse Error: Did not ask about breathing or respiratory distress
20. Lesson: Child is Unsafe Until Proven
Otherwise
• In office, can usually decide within 10 seconds whether or not a
child is seriously ill
• On the phone, this may take 1 to 2 minutes
• Must actively disprove that the patient has any serious etiologies
or complications for their main symptom (eg. Appendicitis for
abdominal pain)
• Don’t assume the caller knows
• If unsure, refer them in to be examined
21. Respiratory Distress
• Respiratory arrest: the primary cause of death in young children
• Recognizing Respiratory distress: an essential skill for telephone
triagers
• Always assess Respiratory Distress in any respiratory guidelines:
cough, croup, flu, wheezing, even colds
• For cold symptoms with fever, do NOT use fever guideline
22. Respiratory Distress Defined
• Normal breathing: effortless, quiet, slow
• Mild RD: Tachypnea w/o dyspnea
• Moderate RD: working to breath, some retractions, some
wheezing or stridor may be present, but not tight
• Severe RD: Struggling to breathe, severe retractions, difficulty
eating or speaking, worse with walking, grunting to push air out,
too hypoxic to sleep
23. Call 6: Morgan, 8 month old girl
• Presenting complaint: “Wheezing for 2 hours”
• Runny nose, cough and fever to 102F started 8 hours ago
• Difficulty breathing and wheezing. Mom has asthma since
childhood
• Best guideline?
24. Morgan, 8 month old girl
• Wheezing Guideline
• Disposition given: Go to ED now
• Result: Child stops breathing in car while driving in
• Father starts driving through stop signs and hits another car
25. Bronchiolitis
• Lesson 1: Consider 911 option whenever you send a child to ED
• Apnea risk is high for infants <6 months with respiratory infections
• Recognize symptoms of sever respiratory distress: grunting, weak
cry, inability to suck, groaning, moaning
• Lesson 2: Listen to child’s breathing
26. Call 7: Boris, 2 year old boy
• Presenting complaint: “swallowed a dime”
• When: 10 minutes ago
• No swallowing problems, drooling, spitting, gagging, vomiting
• No breathing problems
• Best guideline?
27. Boris- 2 Year old boy
• Swallowed foreign body guideline
• Disposition given: Home Care
• Care Advise: Check stools for dime and call back if FB as not
passed within 3 days or develops symptoms
• Result?
28. Coin or button battery?
• Parent called back in 4 hours
• Inconsolable crying and refusing to eat
• Referred to ED
• Diagnosis: button battery in esophagus
• Risk: Saliva asks as electrolyte bath and battery current can cause
chemical burn, perforation, or even vessel damage
29. Jack, 14 year old boy
• Presenting complain- Stomach ache
• Onset: 3 hours ago, after playing basketball
• Location: Lower left side
• Severity: moderate but constant; hurts to walk
• Denies fever, vomiting, diarrhea
• Best guideline?
30. Jack, 14 year old boy
• Abdominal pain guideline
• Disposition given: Go to ED now
• Reason: Moderate pain (interferes with activities) AND constant
AND present >2 hours R/O appendicitis, other acute abdomen
• ED Diagnosis: Left testicular torsion
• Lesson: males may not give their mom correct location of pain
31. Testicular Torsion
• Definition: testicle twists and cuts off its blood supply
• Peak age: 16 (70% between 12 and 18)
• Symptoms: abrupt onset of scrotal pain and swelling
• Exam: testicle elevated and cremasteric reflex absent
• Surgical Emergency: Infraction and loss of testicle if persists > 8
hours
32. Call 9- Gabby, 3 year old girl
• Presenting complaint: “won’t use right arm”
• Onset: 30 minutes ago while dad was swinging her
• Symptoms: Holds right arm partially flexed at elbow with palm
down. Cries and resists any movement.
• Best Guideline?
33. Gabby, 3 year old girl
• Arm Trauma Guideline
• Disposition: Go to ED now
• Reason: Age<4 and cannot move elbow normally (r/o subluxed
raial head)
• Weather conditions: blizzard, 12 inches of snow so far today,
family lives in foothills
• Plan B?
34. Reducing a Subluxed Radius
• Refer call to PCP or ED managed by telephone
• Last resort: triage nurse gives instructions on how to reduce radius
• Either technique is effective
• Confirmation of success: Click is felt and child uses arm within 10
minutes
• Kaplan, RE, Pediatrics 2002: 110: 171-174
35. Hyperpronation Script
• Support your child’s elbow with one hand
• Grip your child’s wrist with the other hand
• Turn your child’s wrist and forearm until the palm faces entirely
downward
• You should feel a click as the elbow is reduced
• Your child should start using the arm normally within 10 minutes