Compass Health Courageous Conversations

Compass Health
Rosetta Eun Ryong Lee
Seattle Girls’ School
Safe to Brave:
Courageous Conversations
Rosetta Eun Ryong Lee (http://tiny.cc/rosettalee)

About Seattle Girls’ School

Agenda
 Safe Versus Brave
 Interrupting with Care
 Courageous Conversations
 Resources and Tools
 Questions and Answers

Engaging in Courageous
Conversations

Safety Versus Comfort
Safety: I feel that, in this space, I can ask questions without
fear of judgment. I can voice my perspective and know that
I will be validated for the fact that that is my truth. Others
may challenge my ideas, but that challenge is in the spirit of
greater shared understanding and growth.
Comfort: I feel that, in this space, my reality will be agreed
with, validated, and unchallenged. I don’t have to explain
myself to be understood, and I don’t have to justify my
perspective, as everyone shares it.
True dialogue happens in an environment where everyone is
safe but not always comfortable...
SO THAT THEY CAN LEARN AND GROW.

Moving Conversations
from Safe to Brave
 Controversy with Civility
 Ownership of intent and impact
 Challenge by choice – with reflection
 Respect in all its multiplicity
 Pointed challenges, not personal attacks
 Mindfulness of the true source of emotions

Debunking Some Myths
 All or None
 Mistakes
 Apologies
 “Tonsils” Theory
 Vulnerability

Growing Through Mistakes
William Taylor’s Reflective Competence Model

Reflection: Courageous Conversations
What are some personal or
professional environment
challenges for authentic
dialogue? How might you
move into more
courageous dialogues in
your professional and
personal life?

Interrupting with Care

Speaking From the Heart

Can you lean on the
relationship?
Can you make it personal?
* Is your relationship
hierarchical? *

Being A DEAR
 Affirm the person or relationship
 Describe the behavior without judgment
 Explain the emotion/impact and your filters
 Assume positive intent
 Request or suggest different behavior
*** Key Points: timing, I statements, actions not
adjectives, inside feelings not outside feelings***

Being A DEAR: An Example
I think you and I both agree we all have a
right to be respected and heard in this
community. When we were disagreeing
about budgets, you said “You’re being
overdramatic,” and later, you called me a
“drama queen.” Statements like this make it
sound like I am being too emotional and
that my concerns are drama rather than real
issues. I am assuming you don’t intend to
police my tone or dismiss my concerns. I
would appreciate your not saying things
like this anymore. Thank you.

Being A Witness

Are you speaking to the agent or
the audience?
Do you want to minimize harm to
the target group?
Do you want to educate?
Do you want to challenge social
norms?

NCBI Effective
Interventions Model
 Reduce Defensiveness
– Tone
– Body Language
– Respect
 Keep the Conversation Going
– Hear Them Out
– Ask Open-Ended Questions
– Set Aside Your Feeling for the Moment
– Dialogue
 Build the Relationship
 Stop the Behavior
 Win an Ally

Active Witnessing: Examples
 Ask open ended questions
– “He looked suspicious”
– “How did he look? How was he acting? Why was that suspicious?”
 Find out the experience motivating the comment
– “Why can’t they just speak English around here?”
– “It must be hard not to understand what people are saying around you.”
– “I’m sick of my taxes paying for freeloaders”
– “Tell me more about about that.”
 Use exaggerated humor to highlight what’s going on
(use sparingly)
– “What do gay people think about this issue?”
– “I’m not sure – I’ll go ask. It may take me a while, since there are so many gay people.”
 Join the person and do not make yourself superior
– “She got that award because she’s Black and female.”
– “You know, I hear that a lot. I’ve been trying to figure out why we seem to think when a
Black woman gets recognized it must be because of ‘diversity’ or ‘affirmative action’
reasons rather than that she earned it.”

Listening to the Real Message

Is this about what you did or
who you are (guilt or shame)?
What is your mindset voice
telling you?
Might this be an opportunity to
learn and grow?

Growing from Mistakes
 Listen with full attention
 Don’t try to defend or respond right away
– Take deep breaths
– Acknowledge your feelings
 Your mistakes don’t define you
– Be worthy of their trust and gift
 Prioritize the Impact over Intent
– Apologize for real
*** Moving through these moments with grace is
called shame resilience. It’s a vital skill***

Growing from Mistakes: Examples
 “I really appreciate your telling me this.”
 “I’m so embarrassed that I did that.”
 “I’m very sorry my words and actions made you
feel that way.”
 “I’m pretty overwhelmed right now, and I don’t
want to respond in a way I’d regret. Do you think
you can help me come up with a better way to
handle that situation after I take a few minutes?”
 “I wanted to go back to a moment I don’t think I
handled very well… Can we talk?”

Process Break
How might you use
these tools in your
professional and
personal life? What
questions or concerns
come up?
tiny.cc/navigatemicroaggressions

Courageous Conversations

Fears and Anxieties that Keep Us
from Having Conversations
 Offending
 Losing Face
 Tokenism
 Professional/Social Risk
 Bursting the Bubble
 Rocking the Boat
 Conflict
 Lack of “Authority”

Pitfalls and Obstacles that Keep Us
from Conversing Again
 Outbursts
 Silence
 Denial
 The Good Talk
 Teacher vs. Facilitator
 Personal Attacks
 The Quick Fix
 Leadership Oppression

Comparing Dialogue and Debate
 Dialogue is collaborative. Debate is oppositional.
 In dialogue, one listens in order to understand and find
meaning. In debate, one listens in order to find flaws and
to counter arguments.
 Dialogue reveals assumptions for reevaluation. Debate
defends assumptions as truth.
 Dialogue calls for temporarily suspending one’s beliefs.
Debate calls for investing wholeheartedly into one’s
beliefs.
 In dialogue, one searches for basic agreements. In
debate, one searches for glaring differences.
 Dialogue remains open-ended. Debate implies a
conclusion.
Adapted from Shelley Bennan, Dialogue Group, Boston Chapter, Educators for Social Responsibility

Polarity Thinking
Cognition marked by flexibility and
elasticity that enables individuals to
recognize and navigate the countless
opposing yet interdependent energies
that manifest in all life. Polarity thinking
transforms ‘either/or’ contrasts into
‘both/and’ formulations that allow for
mutually-satisfying, stable, and
predictable gains in personal and
professional life.
Caroline Blackwell, National Association of Independent Schools

Polarity Mapping
Caroline Blackwell, National Association of Independent Schools

Engaging Across Differences
 Be willing to sit in the gray areas
 Be willing to be uncomfortable
 Be willing to be vulnerable
 Be willing to extend trust and earn trust
 Be willing to listen fully
 Be willing to continue the conversation
 Be willing to believe we need each other

Process Break
How might you use
these frameworks in your
professional and
personal life? What
questions or concerns
come up?

Examples from the Road

Common Scenario:
Disengagement
• Separating Oneself Physically
• Not Speaking
• Side talking, Checking Phone
• Dismissive Body Language
• Turning In Body Language
• “Well, I identify as ____, and I don’t see how I
can relate to this topic…”

Common Scenario:
Ranking Oppressions
• “In this world, it’s so much worse being a
woman than a Person of Color.”
• “We should talk about REAL problems like
immigration status. Ability affects very few
people.”
• “You come from so much wealth, what
problems could you possibly have?”
• “How could I possibly have privilege if I’m
Muslim?”

Common Scenario:
Reverse Discrimination
• “There are so many ways women get special
treatment in the world – leadership programs for
women, STEM courses for girls, and men can’t
say anything these days without being accused of
sexism.”
• “Conversations about class privilege make me feel
guilty, so you’re making ME unsafe…”
• “It’s so much harder for me to get into college as a
White person. People of Color have it so much
easier – how is THAT fair?”

Common Scenario:
Inclusion vs. Assimilation
• “We're all just here to get our education, not to
have some kind of Kum-ba-yah love-in.”
• “How can we be inclusive to EVERYONE’S
culture? Don’t we have to have some
standard for how we act at school or work??
• “Well, we can talk about inclusion here, but
how are we going to be prepared for the REAL
world, where not everyone thinks like this?”

Common Scenario: Colorblindness
• “How could I be prejudiced? I have lots of
friends who are…”
• “I treat everybody the same. I don't care if
they are brown, blue, yellow or purple.”
• “Doesn’t talking about how different we are
just separate us and make problems
worse?”
• “Well I’m just White, so I don’t think about
race all the time like People of Color…”

Other Common Scenarios: Fear
• The role of and appropriate engagement for
people of privileged groups (i.e. White people
in conversations about race, males in
conversations about gender, etc.) (fear of
saying/doing the wrong thing)
• One or two students in a target group (fear of
hurting or offending)
• The “provocateur” who likes to create tension,
drama, or conflict (fear thereof)
• Big eruption of emotions (fear thereof)

For Your Toolbox
• Before a Lesson/Activity
• During
• After
• Be Mindful of Who You Are,
Whom You Are Leading,
What’s in the Air, etc.
• Use Your Resources

Openly Acknowledge

Define the Opportunity

Practice Growth Mindset

Know Your Growth Zones
Comfort Zone:
Reliance on you
already know and do
well
Zone of Proximal
Development – The
Growth Zone:
Mindful and strategic
change toward the
next stage of growth
Panic Zone:
Unrealistic demands
on yourself and
others

Engage in Dialogue Versus Debate
Brenda J. Allen, Difference Matters: Communicating Social Identity
SUPPORTIVE DEFENSIVE
Description Evaluation
Problem-Orientation Control
Spontaneity Strategy
Empathy Neutrality
Equality Superiority
Provisionalism Certainty

Differentiate Safety Versus Comfort
Safety: I feel that, in this space, I can ask questions without
fear of judgment. I can voice my perspective and know that
I will be validated for the fact that that is my truth. Others
may challenge my ideas, but that challenge is in the spirit of
greater shared understanding and growth.
Comfort: I feel that, in this space, my reality will be agreed
with, validated, and unchallenged. I don’t have to explain
myself to be understood, and I don’t have to justify my
perspective, as everyone shares it.
True dialogue happens in an environment where everyone is
safe but not always comfortable...
SO THAT THEY CAN LEARN AND GROW.

Move Conversations from
Safe Spaces to Brave Spaces
 Controversy with Civility
 Own your own intent and impact
 Challenge by choice – with reflection
 Respect in all its multiplicity
 No personal attacks, but pointed
challenges are okay
 Be mindful of the true source of your
emotions

Framing and Talking Points:
Different Occasions, Different Skills

Develop Your Inner Credible Hulk

Equality vs Equity
Everybody gets a shirt versus everybody
gets a shirt that fits.
Giving everybody some insulin in
equality. Giving only people who are
diabetic some insulin is equity.
What is “fair”?

Institutional vs Individual

Correlation vs Causation
Correlation: When income is averaged and compared, there
is a strong correlation between gender and income. This is
due to a myriad of historical, systemic, and economic factors that
impact men and women differently in the workplace.
Causation: When income is averaged and compared, there is a
strong correlation between gender and income. This must be
because women must not be as smart, hard-working, or
good with money as men.
Correlation: When folks are carrying umbrellas, they are
also wearing rain boots. This is because it’s raining.
Causation: Umbrellas make people wear rain boots.

Where We’re From vs Where We’re Going
Where We Come From: In the past, LGBTQ people were
openly discriminated against. Many LGBTQ people were
killed, fired from jobs, kicked out of families, etc. We’ve come
so far. Now, we have openly gay celebrities, politicians, and
other public figures. Equal marriage rights is now law of the
land. Most schools and workplaces have LGBTQ non-
discrimination policies. Why are LGBTQ people are so angry?
Where We Are Going: We still have LGBTQ people who are
discriminated against. News stories abound of LGBTQ people
killed, fired from jobs, kicked out of families, and more. We
have such a long way to go. Having public role models on TV
doesn’t protect kids from bullying and harassment in the
hallways. Having nondiscrimination laws and policies don’t
mean LGBTQ people receive fair treatment in practice Why
are straight/cisgender people are so complacent?

Expert Opinion vs Personal Opinion
Expert Opinion: An astronomy professor, widely published in
academic journals and books, with a national reputation in her
field, states that, according to the most current science, there
are 8 planets in our solar system.
Personal Opinion: Another person asserts that there are 9
planets because that is what he learned in school and from
his parents, he had a map of the sky in his bedroom as a
child, and everyone he knows agrees with him.
Expert Opinion: Experts in multiple fields validate the
existence, reality, and impact of microaggressions, stereotype
threat, racial anxiety, implicit bias, etc.
Personal Opinion: I think people should stop being so
sensitive and get over it. We live in a post-racial society. I
don’t have a racist bone in my body.
Is everybody’s opinion equally valid?

Privilege
“Privilege exists when one group has
something of value that is denied to others
simply because of the groups they belong
to, rather than because of anything they’ve
done or failed to do.”
[as described by Peggy McIntosh and quoted by Allan Johnson]
Privilege is SYSTEMIC. It drives the
systems that dominate our societies.

Two Types of Privilege
Unearned Advantage
an unearned entitlement
(i.e. things of value that
all people should have)
that is restricted to
certain groups
Conferred Dominance
bestowed control;
granted authority;
awarded power or
domination- Giving one
group power over
another

Accumulated Advantages

Situational Advantage
There are prime parking spots and seats
reserved for people with disabilities. People
with disabilities are often first to board
planes and other transportation vehicles.
These advantages are situational and do not
balance out systemic oppression.

Situational Advantage

An Ally Is…
“a person who is a member of the dominant or
majority group who works to end oppression in
his or her personal and professional life
through support of, and as an advocate with
and for, the oppressed population”
Washington and Evans, Becoming an Ally

An Ally Is…
“Someone who doesn’t have to stand up for
someone else, who might even lose something
if they do, but they do it anyway because they
know it’s the right thing to do”
6th Grade Student

Savior Complex
 Centers on the “Helper” and not the “Helped”
 Centers on making the “Helper” feel good about
themselves
 Assumes that the “Helper” knows what is best for the
“Helped,” often without even hearing from the direct
experiences of the “Helped”
 Doesn’t acknowledge deep injustices, where the “Helper”
is privileged and the “Helped” are oppressed
 Doesn’t do anything to give power to the “Helped”
 Does not create sustainable change – once the “Helper”
stops doing what they are doing, so does the positive
change

Allyship and Solidarity
 Centers on the “Helped” and not the “Helper”
 Centers on the “Helper” fulfilling a societal responsibility
as the privileged
 Assumes that the “Helped” knows what is best for the
“Helped,” and that the job of the “Helper” is to assist the
“Helped” in meeting those needs
 Acknowledges deep societal injustices, where the
“Helper” and “Helped” are equal in dignity and unequal in
access through no fault or earning of each party
 Results in the “Helped” becoming more powerful
 Creates sustainable change where the “Helper” becomes
obsolete because the positive change continues with or
without them

Developing into an Ally
Karen Bradberry, PhD
Active Passive Passive Active

Inclusive Communities

Presenter Information
Rosetta Eun Ryong Lee
6th Faculty and
Professional Outreach
Seattle Girls’ School
2706 S Jackson Street
Seattle WA 98144
(206) 805-6562
rlee@seattlegirlsschool.org
http://tiny.cc/rosettalee

Resources
• Anti-Defamation League
• Brené Brown
• Cross Cultural Connections
(www.CulturesConnecting.com)
• National Coalition Building Institute
• The People’s Institute
• Stirfry Seminars
• Teaching Tolerance
• The Thiagi Group

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