A discussion between Imam Sadiq (s) and jaber on science

1. A discussion between Imam Jafar
As-Sadiq (as)
and Jaber Ibn Hayyan
Imam Jafar Sadiq (as)
Reference: The Great Muslim Scientist and Philosopher,
Jafar As-Sadiq

2.  Imam Sadiq was the first Muslim scholar who
encouraged debates and discussions on
different subjects between himself and his
students and even among students themselves.
 During later periods this became a normal
practice in all Muslim schools particularly in the
Shia schools.
Imam encouraged discussions

3.  One of his students was Jaber ibn-Hayyan. He is
known in the West as ‘Geber’.
 Jaber studied from Imam Sadiq (as) and later
went on to become a prominent Shia scientist.
 Jaber is more popularly referred to as the
‘father of chemistry’.
 The name Algebra is also derived from the
name of Jaber.
Jaber ibn Hayyan

4.  Jaber ibn Hayyan used to have long discussions
with his teacher-Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as)
 One day when the Imam was teaching
philosophy, the Imam said that everything in the
universe is in motion.
 Jaber asked: “Are you sure that everything in the
universe is in motion?”
 “Yes I am sure.” replied Imam Sadiq.(as)
Everything is in motion

5.  Jaber asked: “Does the sound have motion?”
 Imam Sadiq (as) replied : “Yes it has. But the speed of
sound is slower than the speed of light. You see from a
distance the sledge of an ironsmith falling on his anvil
and hear the sound afterwards. It is because light
waves, which travel faster, reach your
eyes first and then the slow moving
sound waves afterwards.”
Sound

6.  Jaber asked: “Can you tell me the speed of
sound?”
 Imam Sadiq (as) replied: “Archimedes, the Greek
philosopher, who measured the speed of sound,
said that if a man is 400 zira (1 zira=40 inches)
away from the source of sound, he would hear it
after 8 seconds. The greater the distance, the
longer it will take to reach him.”
Speed of sound

7. • Jaber said: “According to the theory of Archmides it would take
thousands of years for the prophets to hear the voice of Allah,
who is on the other side of the 7th sky.”
• Imam Sadiq (as) replied: “O Jaber, it has been said that He is
beyond the 7th sky to impress upon the common people the
Greatness of Allah, otherwise, He is everywhere. When he wanted
to talk to his prophets, He was so near that His voice was heard
immediately and clearly. And even if he was beyond the 7th sky His
prophets would have heard Him immediately, since His voice is not
like the voice of his creatures. Allah, who created the universe
only by saying ‘Let it be’ had no problem communicating with His
Prophets.”
Allah is everywhere

8. • Jaber asked: “Was the universe created in an instant? It
is said that it was created in 6 days.”
• Imam Sadiq (as) replied: “The universe was created, but
was transformed into its present form in a very long
time. In the beginning it was certainly not as it is today.
The 6 days of Allah, mentioned in the Quran, are not like
our 6 days. The universe came into its present form in 6
stages or 6 periods.”
Universe created in 6 stages

9. • Jaber asked: “When you say that Allah is everywhere, it means
that He is in everything. Therefore, those who say that Allah
and his creations are one, are correct? In other words, if we
believe that He is everything, we must admit that every plant,
animal, stone and star is Allah.”
• Imam Sadiq (as) replied: “You are wrong. Allah is in the plants,
animals, stones and stars, but they are not Allah. Just as the oil
and the wick are in the lamp to produce light, but they are not
the lamp.”
• “If what you are claiming is true that everything is Allah, then
everything must have the power of Allah. Can those who claim
that everything is Allah create even one grain of sand only by
saying, “Let it be” or even create a human being from a drop
of liquid?”
Allah is in everything

10.  The discussion then moved on.
 Imam Sadiq (as) said: “O Jaber, do you see the drawing on the
wall? It is a well drawn beautiful geometrical figure. You get
pleasure from looking at it. Not because you have the
knowledge of mathematics and can appreciate its flawless
geometry. But even children will be delighted to see it.”
 “The basic principles of Islam are in the same category.”
Analogy of Islamic principles

11.  Jaber understood what the imam was saying and
said: “Common people do not understand the truth
of our religious principles and do not know they are
perfect. That is why I persuade them to educate
themselves, and increase their knowledge.”
Common people cannot understand
the logic of Islamic rules

12.  Then Jaber asked: “Was it not better if the rationale behind
Islamic principles was explained in simple terms ?”
 Imam Sadiq (as)replied: “Scientists and philosophers have to
prove their theories by reason and logic so that they may be
accepted by other scientists and philosophers.”
 “They are not concerned with common people, who cannot
and will not understand them.”
Scientific theories are for scientists

13.  Imam Sadiq (as) continued: “However, religion is different from
science and philosophy.”
 “Doctrines of our religion were communicated in simple terms
so that they could be understood by everyone. But it was not
explained why they were sent.”
 “Allah had chosen our Prophet to spread Islam among all
people. It was not sent for the intellectuals only, who would
not have accepted anything, which was not proved by logic.”
Islamic principles are for all

14. • “Our Prophet expressed the doctrines of religion simply so that they
could be understood by all, but he did not give the reasons as to why
they are imposed as then the common people would not have
understood them.”
• “Those who want, can find out themselves why these principles are
formulated.”
• “But development of brain depends upon the acquisition of
knowledge.”
• “Thus, those who wish to understand the reasoning behind Islamic
principles need to acquire knowledge as this will develop their brain.”
• “But those who cannot understand them, should believe in them and
follow them faithfully. That will be sufficient for their salvation.”
Acquiring knowledge leads to understanding

15.  “It requires strong determination, perseverance and hard work
to acquire sufficient knowledge in order to find out the need for
following the rules of Islam.”
 “Common people cannot afford to that. They have to work,
earn their living and support their families. They can thus
engage themselves in trade and agriculture and learn only the
fundamental and secondary rules of Islam.”
Everyone cannot acquire sufficient
knowledge

16.  Imam Sadiq (as) continued: “Your concept of heaven and hell is
quite different from that of an illiterate person.”
 “If you try to explain to him what you understand by these
terms, you will confuse him and make his faith shaky.”
 “That is why it is better to talk to people according to their
intelligence.”
Talk to people according to their
intelligence

17.  “When the Quran was sent, there was a
possibility that common people may
misunderstand the meaning of the verses if
they did not read them correctly. That is why
my grandfather, Ali ibn Abi Talib(as)
invented Arabic grammar.”
Imam Ali invented Arabic grammar

18. • Jaber said: “It is a pity that many people do not understand the
purpose, need and necessity of following Islamic doctrines and
do not understand the deeper meaning of Quranic verses.”
• Imam Sadiq (as) said: “This is the case with every religion. Only a
limited number of people understood quite well the laws of their
religion. These people became the leaders of religion and the rest
had to obey them.”
• “The religion of Islam is similar. Only a handful of people
understand the Quran. They are the leaders (Imams) of the
Muslims.”
Importance of following the Imams

19.  Regarding the mutashabihat verses, Allah swt in verse 3:7 has
said:
And none knows its interpretation, save only God and those
firmly rooted in knowledge
(rasikhuna fil Ilm)
 They are none other than the Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt.
 It is narrated that Imam Sadiq (as)said: “We are the rasikhuna fil
ilm and we know the tawil. (Interpretation of the Quran)”
[Tafsir Nur Thaqalain]
Rasikhuna fil Ilm

20.  In the well known Hadith Thaqlain, the Prophet (saw) said:
“Whoso remains attached to the Quran and my Ahlul Bayt will
never go astray because these two weighty things will never be
separated from each other until they reach me at the spring of
Kauthar.”
 And: “I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate. Allah
Almighty says that we should enter the house through the gates.
So whoever wishes to seek knowledge should come through that
gate.”
Quran and Ahlul Bayt