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The EU Mutual
Learning Programme
in Gender Equality
Gender segregation
in the labour market
and education
Denmark, 29-30 September 2015
Discussion Paper - Denmark
The information contained in this publication does not
necessarily reflect the position or opinion of the European
Commission.
Denmark 2
This publication is supported by the European Union Rights, Equality and
Citizenship Programme (2014-2020).
This programme is implemented by the European Commission and shall contribute
to the further development of an area where equality and the rights of persons, as
enshrined in the Treaty, the Charter and international human rights conventions, are
promoted and protected.
For more information see: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/grants1/programmes-2014-
2020/rec/index_en.htm
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Initiatives to promote more male
kindergarten pedagogues
Ulla Gerner Wohlgemuth,
University College South Denmark
1. Description of the main elements of the
Danish good practice
1.1. Background and general policy context of Denmark
Men’s choice of education within care i.e. the BA programme Social Educator1
gained proper momentum as an independent theme at the beginning of the 1990s
when the discussion of men’s rights and masculinity research were put on the
agenda and when the first indications were seen that the BA programme was, as it
was phrased, dominated by women. Parallel with this observation, the policy
objective of breaking down the gender-segregated labour market was established in
the Danish national plans of action and as a result of analysis and observations of
the effect of “the shortage of men” within the field of care; the establishment of a
number of discourses was started. These discourses still serve as a tool of
explanation for and legitimisation of efforts, the purpose of which is to attract male
pedagogues to childcare and kindergartens; for the sake of the boys and the quality
of care, for the benefit of work environment and labour market structure and for the
sake of gender equality.
The newest action has been a series of five projects (described in chapter 2.2.) that
aim to promote more diversity and aim to attract, recruit and retain male
pedagogues to childcare and kindergartens2
, i.e. day-care for the 0-6 year olds.
1.1.1. Gender segregation on the Danish labour market and in the Danish
education system
In 2013, women’s participation rate in the labour market was 72.5 % compared to
76.4 % for men. The Danish participation rate for women is one of the highest in the
world.
1
The proper Danish noun for a ‘Social Educator’ is a pedagogue. The BA programme in Social
Education is a 3½ year programme offered by eight University Colleges, qualifying for employment
within all aspects of care work. Approximately 2/3 of the students are women. The BA programme
was revised in 2014 offering among other things a 7 week course focusing on gender and diversity.
2
Kindergartens offer care for children aged 6 months up till 6 years. The institutions are often a
merge of a crèche (the youngest children) and a kindergarten (the older children). The fact, that
Danish kindergartens are considered playing and learning environments as well means, that a
kindergarten so to speak ‘covers’ early childhood education (ECE) or pre-school.
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Although young women today are at least as well educated as young men, women
trail men on the labour market when it comes to wages, career opportunities, and
working conditions due to the gender segregation in the education system and on
the labour market. Culture, norms and expectations contribute to maintain gender
roles on the labour market and in the family and delay equal opportunities for both
sexes.
Men dominate in engineering and science, while women dominate in health and
education. Many typical women’s trades are still pronounced low-pay areas. The
pay differential between women and men on the labour market as such is in
particular correlated to the gender-segregated labour market, and therefore the
Government is very interested in breaking down the gender-segregated labour
market and the gender-segregated choices of education.
Different initiatives have been launched such as on-line information on the
opportunities when choosing non-traditional educations, use of role-models, pilot-
projects showing the available jobs within different sectors, government funding of
local projects in schools and municipalities. The influence and importance of cultural
values, including gender aspects, to professional career and education guidance is
also part of the curriculum of the career guidance counsellor’s education.
1.1.2. The Danish Day-care system in general
From 2004, day care facilities have been made available for all parents, referred to
as guaranteed day-care availability. Accessibility of day-care facilities is nowadays
seen as a necessary tool for parents to reconcile working life. Municipalities are
obliged to assign a place in a crèche or a kindergarten for all children older than 6
months. More than 97 % of all children between the age of 3 and 5 attend
kindergarten.
1.1.3. Data and statistics on male pedagogues
The share of male students in the study programme “Social Educator” has increased
slightly within the last 5-6 years. Approximately 30 % of the students in the BA
programme are men (2013-2014 data), but the number is expected to decline due to
a recent drop in the number of applicants to the programme.
In 2003, the share of men was 17 %. In 2010, men counted 20.7 % of the students.
Still only a small minority, approx. 7 %, chooses to work within day-care for smaller
children (0-6 years).
In 2003, 15.8 %3
of the employees in the day-care sector were men. In 2010, this
percentage had risen slightly to 16.7 %4
. These figures cover the fact that in 2010
the share of male pedagogues in nurseries and/or crèches was 1.5 %, whereas
male pedagogues formed 6.1 % of the staff in kindergartens and 46 % of the
pedagogues in institutions offering after-school activities. However, April 2013
statistics showed an average of 7.1 % male pedagogues in kindergartens.
3
6,975 men out of 43,955 employees.
4
8,686 men out of 51,982 employees.
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2. The goals and target groups of the good
practice
The funding opportunity was developed in cooperation with the Danish Union of
Early Childhood and Youth Educators. It was stated that a submission for funding
would be considered if a project would meet detailed requirements:
1) Promote a greater diversity in the day-care sector (kindergartens and crèches)
by e.g. attracting and retaining more male pedagogues;
2) Create new knowledge in the field and
3) Disseminate this knowledge to relevant parties (authorities, municipalities,
educational institutions and professionals in the day-care sector).
Diversity and more male pedagogues are considered important for several reasons:
 A diverse group of employees may contribute to a good work-environment,
dynamics and development in general;
 Diversity and male pedagogues in the day-care institutions may offer the
children a broader palette of adult identification opportunities, and a broader
view of gender, development and possibilities;
 Diversity will contribute to a more varied picture of men and especially what men
can do, thus it will broaden the scope on men’s educational and job
opportunities;
 A gender-segregated labour market is inflexible as it is retaining a gender pay
gap between women and men. This may contribute to bottlenecks in the labour
market which makes our society vulnerable in times of crisis and in times of
growth.
The aim of this funding was to initiate a number of pilot projects that would test new
methods and ways to increase the diversity among the pedagogical staff and hence
attract, recruit and retain male pedagogical staff. A focus on male staff was
mandatory. The ambition was to disseminate the experiences more broadly and
hereby initiate more systematic efforts to increase the diversity in the day-care
sector. The undertakings were directed at relevant parties, i.e. local
authorities/municipalities, kindergartens, educational institutions, public
administrations and job centres and local trade unions. Overall, the funding and the
five projects were seen as part of a constant urge to develop the day-care sector
and the pedagogical work.
2.1. The legal and financial provisions to implement the good
practice
A total of 1,520,000 DKK (around 203,893 EUR) were allocated for the five projects.
Another 230.000 DKK (around 30,852 EUR) are allocated to external consultants
who are following the projects and collecting and conveying the good practices from
the projects.
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2.2. Institutional arrangements and procedures of
implementation
Five practical projects in five different municipalities received funding. Each project
consisted of a number of kindergartens and/or crèches/nurseries. The approaches
and procedures of implementation were highly individual.
2.2.1. Hjørring Municipality – The project “Forest Man”
Hjørring Municipality focussed on nature as an essential part of kindergarten daily
life. The project covered 3 institutions placed in the southern part of the main city
within walking distance from each other and close to a rather large forest. For a
while the forest had served as a place for occasional ‘days-out’ and a newly built
wooden house fully equipped with toilet facilities served as a retreat in case of bad
weather. The pedagogical staff and a public servant had discussed how to make
better use of the grounds around the house and next to the forest. The idea of a
forest man came to life as a result of the ministerial launch of the possible funding.
A male pedagogue was recruited and temporarily employed with the purpose of
arranging outdoor activities and to attend these. The kindergartens scheduled their
visits to the wood with prospects of a good result – neatly arranged outdoor activities
– and informed the parents of the undertakings and the expected outcome. Knives
were bought for cutting of sticks and numerous minor long-term projects within the
project took place, such as knowledge of tree sorts, and varieties of snails and
slugs.
The project was based mostly on the initial assumption that activities connected to
outdoor life e.g. climbing trees are attached to masculine sets of values and the
sincere belief that playing outside would appeal to men. However, in the course of
the project the initial assumptions and stereotypes were challenged, resulting in the
fact that now also a female pedagogue acts as forest woman.
2.2.2. Aalborg Municipality – A Man at any Prize
Local observations had assisted the originators in Aalborg Municipality in assuming
high-profiled institutions to appeal to male staff. This observation leads to the
supposition that male pedagogues may be recruited to kindergarten. Around 4 % of
the day-care staff in Aalborg is men. A look at the actual share of male pedagogues
in University Colleges made the project wonder how come kindergartens were not
their first priority.
This project had a genuine belief in gendered differences in terms of pedagogical
quality and sincere worries that children may spend years in kindergartens without
having met a male pedagogue. Consequently, the project was designed with high
hopes and particular anticipations concerning potential male colleagues. Besides an
increase in male staff and a higher quality in the kindergarten, the project expected
a more gender-balanced staff would improve the work environment.
Semi-structured interviews were generated in collaboration with the nearby
University College. The purpose was to gain a profile of the male pedagogue and to
acquire possible explanations to why most male pedagogues refrain from working in
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kindergartens. Almost all of the 30 male pedagogues employed in the municipality
participated. Some of the findings were:
 Kindergartens need a profile and this profile should appear in the adverts;
 Male students are often unaware of the possibilities in kindergartens; University
Colleges offer insufficient information;
 Directions in kindergartens restricting male pedagogues are distrustful;
 Male pedagogues attract other male pedagogues to the sector;
 Male pedagogues wish to work full-time, and many institutions offers part-time;
 The pedagogical profession in general is met with prejudice and preconception.
A rotation principle was designed – ‘a man for hire’. One male pedagogue would
move between 7 kindergartens (the kindergartens volunteered). Being a man, the
pedagogue supposedly would influence and change daily routines. The male
pedagogue was asked to observe and make records of his experiences during his
stay. The duration varied but never less than a week.
2.2.3. Skanderborg Municipality – I do the same but in a different way
Diversity became a keyword in Skanderborg Municipality. Diversity as in ‘multiple
ways of being a pedagogue’ and not differentiated by gender alone, but by beliefs,
interests, and concepts. The enterprises were guided by a motto: ‘I do the same in a
different way’ and the intention was all along whether the children would notice and
benefit from the accomplishments.
Initial attempts were made to alter the recruitment practice and the advertising for
new pedagogues by questioning e.g. procedures and language usage. In their
present state the adverts were found to have been either constructed by women
with concordant views and/or directed to pedagogues (women) with similar interests.
Accordingly, the project questioned a few male students and asked for their opinion
on ‘buzz-words’ in an advert and what would make them apply for a job in a
kindergarten. The outcome was that adverts must have a built-in appeal to all kind of
pedagogues (diversity) and must have a focus on pedagogical possibilities and
activities, be it indoors or outdoors. Obviously, quality and the ability to form and
contribute to quality are essential elements.
Apparently, a construction has developed over the years related to applications
being handed in to kindergartens; an anticipated pre-visit from the applicants. Some
of the applicants (women) will visit, but (most) men attach no importance to such a
visit. Often the no-callers may not be invited for an interview.
The kindergartens initiated a process of changing the language connected to daily
routines and the gendering of some actions or notions. Preparing lunch and laying
the table is for anyone to do and has no gender. Talks about women being able to
multitask and men being more impulsive and wild were questioned. In other words, it
was attempted to release ‘features’, notions and abilities from gender and focus on
the person and the quality of the action in question. Now and again observations
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were made showing reactions from the children to e.g. a man performing a specific
task presumably more often performed by his female colleagues. If the children
would comment on this being unusual, the pedagogues would ask them why and
talk with the children about ‘what girls and boys can do’ instead of what they
“typically” do and want. Outdoor arrangements, a summer party and gatherings with
the parents and external consultants were other activities in order to make room for
reflections.
Discussions took place among staff and with occasional external expertise from
University College as to highlight consciousness of gender; of differences, strengths
and possible prejudices. The project joined information eves in the regional
University College in order to draw (new) student’s attention to the pedagogical
profession and to chat with male students about the job-possibilities and the matters
of appealing adverts.
By operating the latter, the project hoped to gain new knowledge and influence staff,
politicians and parents to wish for and to think diversity as a must. Children should
be content, happy and challenged by content, happy and qualified staff of both
genders. The wellbeing of the children is the core of it all and the wellbeing is part of
a result affiliated to a diverse staff, both genders, with different views, ideas and
qualities.
2.2.4. Hørsholm Municipality – Architecture of Multiplicity
Three kindergartens were involved in Hørsholm Municipality which have very few
male pedagogues employed. The municipality formed a partnership with a private
consultancy firm who designed and took lead of the activities. The core concept was
nudging, i.e. a gentle way of changing people’s behaviour; in this context a change
of the mind-set of specific target groups. The target-groups were the local
politicians, the parents and the staff. They were all supposed to wonder why no
male pedagogues were to be found in the kindergartens. Secondly they were to
wish to attract and to recruit men.
The private consultancy firm performed a series of interviews with male students
who were asked to convey their personal opinions and ambitions in terms of a
possible job in a kindergarten. Among other things, the student pointed the lack of
so-called 'male' attitudes. According to the consultancy firm the students described
‘male attitudes as that of being relaxed and impulsive, creating fewer limits and with
a more direct manner.
Through observations and videos of daily routines and activities the project
ascertained that the quality of the kindergarten and the daily care may be improved
and that men could play a valuable part in this. As a result of this conclusion – to
gently change the mind set – a series of wall stickers, e.g. portraying children and
pedagogues playing, or with an image of a pair of wellington boots was produced.
Another contribution was a catalogue displaying inspiration to children’s games. The
catalogue and the stickers were to nudge and remind the staff and parents of the
benefits of masculine presence.
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2.2.5. Fredensborg Municipality - Professionalism as a Strategy for
Recruitment and Retention
Through a series of corresponding activities the originators of this initiative set out to
reformulate the identity of a pedagogue and to root a new image of childcare as a
scientifically and methodically based profession. Naturally, the recruitment and
retention of male pedagogues - and a gender perspective – was part of the
approach. Six institutions took part in the mutual efforts in Fredensborg Municipality.
The project was framed by the hypothesis that a professional identity may only be
changed through investigation into the presiding understanding of core values and
aims. Considerations of values and knowledge must be debated and shared with
other professionals, locally as well as nationally.
The project claimed a need for kindergarten staff to be diverse, and to be as
different and individual as the children. An internal course kicked off the actual
reformation process of the pedagogue and the professional identity. Other
structured courses followed with a focus on gender and gender perspectives, a
focus on matters of language and routines and ways to organise the male staff and
recruit male colleagues. Participants were leaders, pedagogues, assistants, and
trainees. Staff meetings would fixate the themes mentioned previously and keep up
the work via transcribed descriptions of everyday activities and observations
affiliated to the central question of professional identity and a gender perspective.
Alongside the internal courses, the project initiated minor activities as part of the
new agenda. A group of male pedagogues were pooled in one kindergarten in order
to obtain knowledge of whether a grouping of ‘equal gendered pedagogues’ would
make the men in question feel better.
The local advertisements and the procedures when new pedagogues are required
were questioned and a modernisation became part of the reforming ideas. The
project teamed up with a renowned researcher, professor Dorthe Staunæs.
3. Results of the good practice and its impact
on achieving gender equality
Some of the projects have reported they are not nearly done implementing their
results or intentions. We have just begun, we are at the starting line is the common
observation. Some of the results are listed below.
The temporarily employed male pedagogue in Hjørring Municipality has received a
permanent engagement in one of the kindergartens and the forest and the wooden
house no longer have ‘A Forest man’ connected to it. The use of the grounds is
stable though even without a leading figure.
In Fredensborg Municipality the originators of the project intend to mainstream their
observations and records. They are steadfast when it comes to placing the
profession in the centre of it all and wishes to set gender aside in terms of gender
being a feature, the qualified pedagogue being the core. Leadership is an anchor to
their work.
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Aalborg Municipality has decided to establish a new kindergarten renowned for
diversity, hence male and female pedagogues, presence and values. The
municipality has set sails to form ‘a light-house project’. The project has produced a
guidebook to support interviews with applicants and the leader of one of the largest
kindergarten departments has decided that for every set of interviews at least one
man should be invited.
Skanderborg Municipality has thrived in changing advertisements and procedures
affiliated to it. They have succeeded displaying that diversity in staff, and that male
and female pedagogues together bring about a variety in possibilities for children.
Besides being able to mirror themselves in adults of both genders the children are
given the possibilities of participating in learning and playing activities offered by a
diverse staff. The project has reported that some of the outdoor activities have
brought about incidents where usually shy children have behaved bravely and
sceptical parents have been convinced.
Seemingly, male and female pedagogues are able to inspire each other, or even
‘provoke’ abilities to surface. In Hjørring Municipality a female pedagogue now
claims to be the Forest Woman. I can do almost the same as the Forest Man. They
laughed a bit at me in the beginning. They do not laugh anymore. I have even laid
out tiles in the back yard. I must have ‘forgotten’ how to do these things.
3.1. Challenges, obstacles and constraints encountered
It is possible to map out a series of transverse themes which can be described as
challenges or in some relations even obstacles.
3.1.1. Leadership and management
The venture to obtain a gender balanced staff in kindergarten is a race against odds,
if the local and municipal political authorities have no intention to practise gender
mainstreaming beyond the legislative standards. It takes strong leadership as one
on the projects put it. One may succeed with a funding, but it is compulsory to have
a political back-up in order to retain, preserve and develop the results achieved. This
goes for the daily leadership in the kindergarten as well. A precise, detailed and
well-known gender policy in the municipality will never prosper if the leaders of the
kindergartens themselves refrain from taking on a management responsibility in this
respect. Together with the leaders of the kindergartens the board members must be
involved and take on responsibility. Furthermore, the conveyed policy and principles
of the actual kindergarten needs to be taken into account.
A leader of one of the projects had made this observation: I am amazed that none of
my fellow colleagues had any questions. She considered this lack of interest among
peers an obstacle.
3.1.2. Parents
Not every parent thinks the presence of male pedagogues a blessing. He or she
may find it hard to believe a male pedagogue is able to offer care and attention or
may even see men as a possible risk. This observation was made by almost all of
the projects. On the opposite, some parents are quite enthusiastic when they spot a
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man in the kindergarten. In their point of view football and fire finally may be added
to the daily activities. One male pedagogue had to explain this was not necessarily
the case. This man was transferred to an institution with no male pedagogues. He
had to explain to the parents that he had plenty of responsibilities to perform and
that building a campfire was not the epitome of his pedagogical qualities.
3.1.3. Gender, body and expectations
Every project has experienced challenges affiliated to gender, body and
expectations. Participants have explained this by referring to culture, paradigms and
societal patterns. Nevertheless the expectations towards male pedagogues taking
upon them to work in kindergartens are easily summed up; these men are met with
specific hopes – and prejudices.
Our performance and attachment to the children have changed a lot. The activities
are different and so are we. (Pedagogues in Hjørring). Hjørring Municipality
described their initial position as a strong belief in the combination of men and wild-
life and male sets of values. They admitted afterwards they had been certain a male
pedagogue would bring about a lot of new activities (campfire, rope ways, tree-
climbing). But we know better now, as one of the participants put it. The
pedagogues have changed their opinion of men and women and their abilities and
they have changed their opinion on their personal capacities.
Expectations and prejudices towards one gender nourish expectations towards
another gender and restraining structural patterns are created and upheld.
Based on these records a series of brief maxims are:
 The only possible way to broaden viewpoints is by constantly challenging the
images and the ideas of diversity, gender and gender roles. The pedagogical
leader of the kindergarten should take charge of this.
 Prejudice and bias affiliated to gender and work is hard to come by in terms of
childcare.
 Bodies create anticipations, but abilities have not gender stamped on to it. Some
women are keen on outdoor life, some men are happy with storytelling.
 Do not expect everybody to think gender-mainstreaming in the kindergarten is a
brilliant idea.
 Routines, patterns and unquestioned schemes may cloud the picture.
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4. Assessment of the strengths and
weaknesses of the good practice
4.1. Introduction
The projects have worked intensely and have made essential observations although
some undertakings were changed and not every part of the plans came to life.
However; further research into some of the observations is necessary.
4.2. Strengths
 For the sake of the children
The projects have taken into consideration how the children may benefit from a
more diverse and a more gender-balanced staff. Children need a multiplicity of
different identification possibilities. Pedagogues naturally must represent the societal
diversity and therefore be male and female. Even though the discourse ‘for the sake
of the boys’ has a part in this argumentation, the projects have been able to set
aside the ‘boys-only rhetoric’ and include the girls. This is an acknowledgment of
changed parenthood, new father’s role, new images of kindergartens, and men and
women as professional child-care-givers. Many parents have stated that their
children are happy with the variety in activities. This may be caused by the activities
being new, different, and sometimes a bit ‘wild’. Finally some fathers have
expressed their satisfaction when being able to talk to a male pedagogue.
 A wake-up call
Although different approaches and varied outcomes none of the projects had
anticipated that activities and arrangements would make them discover their own
patterns and routines, prejudices and notions. Many of the participants were
astonished by solid and rigid beliefs in gender, body and abilities. They were
affected when they realised how this may have inflicted on their choices and
decision and on how often they had just taken things for granted.
 Adverts
A mutual strength is the discovery of the factual systems and procedures when
looking for new fellow pedagogues. Apparently, the design, the language and the
procedure has developed unquestioned over time and the procedure has been
framed by a certain undisputed ‘air of care’. Seemingly a construction has taken
place; a construction and replication of firm ideas of the colleague to be and of non-
formal but solid expectations to performance when invited for an interview. Every
project has recognised and worked hard to remove restraining procedures.
 Questioning daily routine
Routines are dreary but should be questioned as most of the projects have set out
to do so. Questioning may not be sufficient and all along the road individuals tend to
fall back into recognisable structures and schemes. Promoting more staff diversity
and gender balance can help to challenge daily routine and to bring about new
impulses and innovation.
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 Contact to students
A prior contact to male students on information eves and meetings with students in
the BA programme was a very good approach. These students were (and are) likely
to be fresh sources of knowledge. They have chosen or are about to choose this BA
programme for good and solid reasons and their motives and aspirations may
stimulate the actions to gender-balance kindergarten staff.
 It is not a only question of ‘more men’
An increase in the number of male pedagogues is likely to prosper from a change of
how this increase is described and is anticipated to take place. As an alternative to
‘more male pedagogues’, it is a matter of ‘more credit to a profession’. The Danish
kindergartens offer the very best of care because of highly professional
pedagogues.
4.3. Weaknesses
A series of starting points have formed the basis of most of the activities. These
suppositions may be described as weaknesses:
 Men are different
According to the public opinion, men are expected to contribute via 'natural' abilities,
and preferably these abilities only. The present staffs – the established professional
pedagogues of whom the majority is women – are the ones to define the acquired
skills or type or contribution required. Individuals are put off by restrictions linked to
their conduct when the restrictions are based on gendered dogmas.
 Little use of knowledge of men’s reasons to become pedagogues
Apparently none of the projects have examined why men choose to become
pedagogues. Given the fact that (some) men are employed in kindergartens and
that men are rather visible in the BA programme, valid information may have been
obtained beforehand. Available information should be taken into consideration,
when projects decide to attract and recruit colleagues into jobs where the acquired
individuals are defined as the minority.
 Permanent changes or just slight modifications
It is less noticeable whether the presence of (more future) male pedagogues is
expected to bring anything else but (some) anticipated changes in routines and
procedures. It is also unclear whether the anticipated changes mean changes up to
a certain point and then ‘business as usual’.
 Empirical approach
There is much room for improvement when it comes to the empirical approach. How
the questions were constructed, tested and validated, how the interviews were
performed and how the answers were analysed and by which categorisations is
imperceptible and therefore questionable. The classification of activities in the
kindergarten as either male or female is problematic. The underlying reasons for
making such a division are vague, so is the ‘prior research’ and method by which
this classification has taken place. That no man is present in a kindergarten cannot
lead to the deduction of abilities not being present.
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 Woman originators
Only few men were among the originators of the projects and only one man was a
front figure, the fact being that women are the majority in childcare. Knowing that the
very few men in childcare may inspire other men, the projects should consider this
and men should be asked to take lead of some of the initiatives and activities.
5. Main questions and issues for debate at the
meeting
 Which of the projects or actions mentioned would be transferable to your
country?
 Why this project and why these activities?
 What would it take were you to instigate a similar project in your country?
 Which formal qualifications are needed in childcare/kindergartens/crèches?
 What is the main obstacle for attracting men to childcare?
 Have you any men employed in childcare?
There is a mutual agreement among the projects that children benefit from
observing daily doings being performed by both genders. Nevertheless, the daily
doings in the kindergartens have been divided into distinct gendered doings,
unquestioned over time. The actual division is somewhat blurred, but kindergarten
pedagogues are women with few exceptions, meaning the women are the dividers.
How can we overcome this?

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2 as dk discussion paper-dk 2015

  • 1. The EU Mutual Learning Programme in Gender Equality Gender segregation in the labour market and education Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 Discussion Paper - Denmark The information contained in this publication does not necessarily reflect the position or opinion of the European Commission.
  • 2. Denmark 2 This publication is supported by the European Union Rights, Equality and Citizenship Programme (2014-2020). This programme is implemented by the European Commission and shall contribute to the further development of an area where equality and the rights of persons, as enshrined in the Treaty, the Charter and international human rights conventions, are promoted and protected. For more information see: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/grants1/programmes-2014- 2020/rec/index_en.htm
  • 3. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 3 3 Initiatives to promote more male kindergarten pedagogues Ulla Gerner Wohlgemuth, University College South Denmark 1. Description of the main elements of the Danish good practice 1.1. Background and general policy context of Denmark Men’s choice of education within care i.e. the BA programme Social Educator1 gained proper momentum as an independent theme at the beginning of the 1990s when the discussion of men’s rights and masculinity research were put on the agenda and when the first indications were seen that the BA programme was, as it was phrased, dominated by women. Parallel with this observation, the policy objective of breaking down the gender-segregated labour market was established in the Danish national plans of action and as a result of analysis and observations of the effect of “the shortage of men” within the field of care; the establishment of a number of discourses was started. These discourses still serve as a tool of explanation for and legitimisation of efforts, the purpose of which is to attract male pedagogues to childcare and kindergartens; for the sake of the boys and the quality of care, for the benefit of work environment and labour market structure and for the sake of gender equality. The newest action has been a series of five projects (described in chapter 2.2.) that aim to promote more diversity and aim to attract, recruit and retain male pedagogues to childcare and kindergartens2 , i.e. day-care for the 0-6 year olds. 1.1.1. Gender segregation on the Danish labour market and in the Danish education system In 2013, women’s participation rate in the labour market was 72.5 % compared to 76.4 % for men. The Danish participation rate for women is one of the highest in the world. 1 The proper Danish noun for a ‘Social Educator’ is a pedagogue. The BA programme in Social Education is a 3½ year programme offered by eight University Colleges, qualifying for employment within all aspects of care work. Approximately 2/3 of the students are women. The BA programme was revised in 2014 offering among other things a 7 week course focusing on gender and diversity. 2 Kindergartens offer care for children aged 6 months up till 6 years. The institutions are often a merge of a crèche (the youngest children) and a kindergarten (the older children). The fact, that Danish kindergartens are considered playing and learning environments as well means, that a kindergarten so to speak ‘covers’ early childhood education (ECE) or pre-school.
  • 4. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 4 4 Although young women today are at least as well educated as young men, women trail men on the labour market when it comes to wages, career opportunities, and working conditions due to the gender segregation in the education system and on the labour market. Culture, norms and expectations contribute to maintain gender roles on the labour market and in the family and delay equal opportunities for both sexes. Men dominate in engineering and science, while women dominate in health and education. Many typical women’s trades are still pronounced low-pay areas. The pay differential between women and men on the labour market as such is in particular correlated to the gender-segregated labour market, and therefore the Government is very interested in breaking down the gender-segregated labour market and the gender-segregated choices of education. Different initiatives have been launched such as on-line information on the opportunities when choosing non-traditional educations, use of role-models, pilot- projects showing the available jobs within different sectors, government funding of local projects in schools and municipalities. The influence and importance of cultural values, including gender aspects, to professional career and education guidance is also part of the curriculum of the career guidance counsellor’s education. 1.1.2. The Danish Day-care system in general From 2004, day care facilities have been made available for all parents, referred to as guaranteed day-care availability. Accessibility of day-care facilities is nowadays seen as a necessary tool for parents to reconcile working life. Municipalities are obliged to assign a place in a crèche or a kindergarten for all children older than 6 months. More than 97 % of all children between the age of 3 and 5 attend kindergarten. 1.1.3. Data and statistics on male pedagogues The share of male students in the study programme “Social Educator” has increased slightly within the last 5-6 years. Approximately 30 % of the students in the BA programme are men (2013-2014 data), but the number is expected to decline due to a recent drop in the number of applicants to the programme. In 2003, the share of men was 17 %. In 2010, men counted 20.7 % of the students. Still only a small minority, approx. 7 %, chooses to work within day-care for smaller children (0-6 years). In 2003, 15.8 %3 of the employees in the day-care sector were men. In 2010, this percentage had risen slightly to 16.7 %4 . These figures cover the fact that in 2010 the share of male pedagogues in nurseries and/or crèches was 1.5 %, whereas male pedagogues formed 6.1 % of the staff in kindergartens and 46 % of the pedagogues in institutions offering after-school activities. However, April 2013 statistics showed an average of 7.1 % male pedagogues in kindergartens. 3 6,975 men out of 43,955 employees. 4 8,686 men out of 51,982 employees.
  • 5. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 5 5 2. The goals and target groups of the good practice The funding opportunity was developed in cooperation with the Danish Union of Early Childhood and Youth Educators. It was stated that a submission for funding would be considered if a project would meet detailed requirements: 1) Promote a greater diversity in the day-care sector (kindergartens and crèches) by e.g. attracting and retaining more male pedagogues; 2) Create new knowledge in the field and 3) Disseminate this knowledge to relevant parties (authorities, municipalities, educational institutions and professionals in the day-care sector). Diversity and more male pedagogues are considered important for several reasons:  A diverse group of employees may contribute to a good work-environment, dynamics and development in general;  Diversity and male pedagogues in the day-care institutions may offer the children a broader palette of adult identification opportunities, and a broader view of gender, development and possibilities;  Diversity will contribute to a more varied picture of men and especially what men can do, thus it will broaden the scope on men’s educational and job opportunities;  A gender-segregated labour market is inflexible as it is retaining a gender pay gap between women and men. This may contribute to bottlenecks in the labour market which makes our society vulnerable in times of crisis and in times of growth. The aim of this funding was to initiate a number of pilot projects that would test new methods and ways to increase the diversity among the pedagogical staff and hence attract, recruit and retain male pedagogical staff. A focus on male staff was mandatory. The ambition was to disseminate the experiences more broadly and hereby initiate more systematic efforts to increase the diversity in the day-care sector. The undertakings were directed at relevant parties, i.e. local authorities/municipalities, kindergartens, educational institutions, public administrations and job centres and local trade unions. Overall, the funding and the five projects were seen as part of a constant urge to develop the day-care sector and the pedagogical work. 2.1. The legal and financial provisions to implement the good practice A total of 1,520,000 DKK (around 203,893 EUR) were allocated for the five projects. Another 230.000 DKK (around 30,852 EUR) are allocated to external consultants who are following the projects and collecting and conveying the good practices from the projects.
  • 6. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 6 6 2.2. Institutional arrangements and procedures of implementation Five practical projects in five different municipalities received funding. Each project consisted of a number of kindergartens and/or crèches/nurseries. The approaches and procedures of implementation were highly individual. 2.2.1. Hjørring Municipality – The project “Forest Man” Hjørring Municipality focussed on nature as an essential part of kindergarten daily life. The project covered 3 institutions placed in the southern part of the main city within walking distance from each other and close to a rather large forest. For a while the forest had served as a place for occasional ‘days-out’ and a newly built wooden house fully equipped with toilet facilities served as a retreat in case of bad weather. The pedagogical staff and a public servant had discussed how to make better use of the grounds around the house and next to the forest. The idea of a forest man came to life as a result of the ministerial launch of the possible funding. A male pedagogue was recruited and temporarily employed with the purpose of arranging outdoor activities and to attend these. The kindergartens scheduled their visits to the wood with prospects of a good result – neatly arranged outdoor activities – and informed the parents of the undertakings and the expected outcome. Knives were bought for cutting of sticks and numerous minor long-term projects within the project took place, such as knowledge of tree sorts, and varieties of snails and slugs. The project was based mostly on the initial assumption that activities connected to outdoor life e.g. climbing trees are attached to masculine sets of values and the sincere belief that playing outside would appeal to men. However, in the course of the project the initial assumptions and stereotypes were challenged, resulting in the fact that now also a female pedagogue acts as forest woman. 2.2.2. Aalborg Municipality – A Man at any Prize Local observations had assisted the originators in Aalborg Municipality in assuming high-profiled institutions to appeal to male staff. This observation leads to the supposition that male pedagogues may be recruited to kindergarten. Around 4 % of the day-care staff in Aalborg is men. A look at the actual share of male pedagogues in University Colleges made the project wonder how come kindergartens were not their first priority. This project had a genuine belief in gendered differences in terms of pedagogical quality and sincere worries that children may spend years in kindergartens without having met a male pedagogue. Consequently, the project was designed with high hopes and particular anticipations concerning potential male colleagues. Besides an increase in male staff and a higher quality in the kindergarten, the project expected a more gender-balanced staff would improve the work environment. Semi-structured interviews were generated in collaboration with the nearby University College. The purpose was to gain a profile of the male pedagogue and to acquire possible explanations to why most male pedagogues refrain from working in
  • 7. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 7 7 kindergartens. Almost all of the 30 male pedagogues employed in the municipality participated. Some of the findings were:  Kindergartens need a profile and this profile should appear in the adverts;  Male students are often unaware of the possibilities in kindergartens; University Colleges offer insufficient information;  Directions in kindergartens restricting male pedagogues are distrustful;  Male pedagogues attract other male pedagogues to the sector;  Male pedagogues wish to work full-time, and many institutions offers part-time;  The pedagogical profession in general is met with prejudice and preconception. A rotation principle was designed – ‘a man for hire’. One male pedagogue would move between 7 kindergartens (the kindergartens volunteered). Being a man, the pedagogue supposedly would influence and change daily routines. The male pedagogue was asked to observe and make records of his experiences during his stay. The duration varied but never less than a week. 2.2.3. Skanderborg Municipality – I do the same but in a different way Diversity became a keyword in Skanderborg Municipality. Diversity as in ‘multiple ways of being a pedagogue’ and not differentiated by gender alone, but by beliefs, interests, and concepts. The enterprises were guided by a motto: ‘I do the same in a different way’ and the intention was all along whether the children would notice and benefit from the accomplishments. Initial attempts were made to alter the recruitment practice and the advertising for new pedagogues by questioning e.g. procedures and language usage. In their present state the adverts were found to have been either constructed by women with concordant views and/or directed to pedagogues (women) with similar interests. Accordingly, the project questioned a few male students and asked for their opinion on ‘buzz-words’ in an advert and what would make them apply for a job in a kindergarten. The outcome was that adverts must have a built-in appeal to all kind of pedagogues (diversity) and must have a focus on pedagogical possibilities and activities, be it indoors or outdoors. Obviously, quality and the ability to form and contribute to quality are essential elements. Apparently, a construction has developed over the years related to applications being handed in to kindergartens; an anticipated pre-visit from the applicants. Some of the applicants (women) will visit, but (most) men attach no importance to such a visit. Often the no-callers may not be invited for an interview. The kindergartens initiated a process of changing the language connected to daily routines and the gendering of some actions or notions. Preparing lunch and laying the table is for anyone to do and has no gender. Talks about women being able to multitask and men being more impulsive and wild were questioned. In other words, it was attempted to release ‘features’, notions and abilities from gender and focus on the person and the quality of the action in question. Now and again observations
  • 8. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 8 8 were made showing reactions from the children to e.g. a man performing a specific task presumably more often performed by his female colleagues. If the children would comment on this being unusual, the pedagogues would ask them why and talk with the children about ‘what girls and boys can do’ instead of what they “typically” do and want. Outdoor arrangements, a summer party and gatherings with the parents and external consultants were other activities in order to make room for reflections. Discussions took place among staff and with occasional external expertise from University College as to highlight consciousness of gender; of differences, strengths and possible prejudices. The project joined information eves in the regional University College in order to draw (new) student’s attention to the pedagogical profession and to chat with male students about the job-possibilities and the matters of appealing adverts. By operating the latter, the project hoped to gain new knowledge and influence staff, politicians and parents to wish for and to think diversity as a must. Children should be content, happy and challenged by content, happy and qualified staff of both genders. The wellbeing of the children is the core of it all and the wellbeing is part of a result affiliated to a diverse staff, both genders, with different views, ideas and qualities. 2.2.4. Hørsholm Municipality – Architecture of Multiplicity Three kindergartens were involved in Hørsholm Municipality which have very few male pedagogues employed. The municipality formed a partnership with a private consultancy firm who designed and took lead of the activities. The core concept was nudging, i.e. a gentle way of changing people’s behaviour; in this context a change of the mind-set of specific target groups. The target-groups were the local politicians, the parents and the staff. They were all supposed to wonder why no male pedagogues were to be found in the kindergartens. Secondly they were to wish to attract and to recruit men. The private consultancy firm performed a series of interviews with male students who were asked to convey their personal opinions and ambitions in terms of a possible job in a kindergarten. Among other things, the student pointed the lack of so-called 'male' attitudes. According to the consultancy firm the students described ‘male attitudes as that of being relaxed and impulsive, creating fewer limits and with a more direct manner. Through observations and videos of daily routines and activities the project ascertained that the quality of the kindergarten and the daily care may be improved and that men could play a valuable part in this. As a result of this conclusion – to gently change the mind set – a series of wall stickers, e.g. portraying children and pedagogues playing, or with an image of a pair of wellington boots was produced. Another contribution was a catalogue displaying inspiration to children’s games. The catalogue and the stickers were to nudge and remind the staff and parents of the benefits of masculine presence.
  • 9. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 9 9 2.2.5. Fredensborg Municipality - Professionalism as a Strategy for Recruitment and Retention Through a series of corresponding activities the originators of this initiative set out to reformulate the identity of a pedagogue and to root a new image of childcare as a scientifically and methodically based profession. Naturally, the recruitment and retention of male pedagogues - and a gender perspective – was part of the approach. Six institutions took part in the mutual efforts in Fredensborg Municipality. The project was framed by the hypothesis that a professional identity may only be changed through investigation into the presiding understanding of core values and aims. Considerations of values and knowledge must be debated and shared with other professionals, locally as well as nationally. The project claimed a need for kindergarten staff to be diverse, and to be as different and individual as the children. An internal course kicked off the actual reformation process of the pedagogue and the professional identity. Other structured courses followed with a focus on gender and gender perspectives, a focus on matters of language and routines and ways to organise the male staff and recruit male colleagues. Participants were leaders, pedagogues, assistants, and trainees. Staff meetings would fixate the themes mentioned previously and keep up the work via transcribed descriptions of everyday activities and observations affiliated to the central question of professional identity and a gender perspective. Alongside the internal courses, the project initiated minor activities as part of the new agenda. A group of male pedagogues were pooled in one kindergarten in order to obtain knowledge of whether a grouping of ‘equal gendered pedagogues’ would make the men in question feel better. The local advertisements and the procedures when new pedagogues are required were questioned and a modernisation became part of the reforming ideas. The project teamed up with a renowned researcher, professor Dorthe Staunæs. 3. Results of the good practice and its impact on achieving gender equality Some of the projects have reported they are not nearly done implementing their results or intentions. We have just begun, we are at the starting line is the common observation. Some of the results are listed below. The temporarily employed male pedagogue in Hjørring Municipality has received a permanent engagement in one of the kindergartens and the forest and the wooden house no longer have ‘A Forest man’ connected to it. The use of the grounds is stable though even without a leading figure. In Fredensborg Municipality the originators of the project intend to mainstream their observations and records. They are steadfast when it comes to placing the profession in the centre of it all and wishes to set gender aside in terms of gender being a feature, the qualified pedagogue being the core. Leadership is an anchor to their work.
  • 10. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 10 10 Aalborg Municipality has decided to establish a new kindergarten renowned for diversity, hence male and female pedagogues, presence and values. The municipality has set sails to form ‘a light-house project’. The project has produced a guidebook to support interviews with applicants and the leader of one of the largest kindergarten departments has decided that for every set of interviews at least one man should be invited. Skanderborg Municipality has thrived in changing advertisements and procedures affiliated to it. They have succeeded displaying that diversity in staff, and that male and female pedagogues together bring about a variety in possibilities for children. Besides being able to mirror themselves in adults of both genders the children are given the possibilities of participating in learning and playing activities offered by a diverse staff. The project has reported that some of the outdoor activities have brought about incidents where usually shy children have behaved bravely and sceptical parents have been convinced. Seemingly, male and female pedagogues are able to inspire each other, or even ‘provoke’ abilities to surface. In Hjørring Municipality a female pedagogue now claims to be the Forest Woman. I can do almost the same as the Forest Man. They laughed a bit at me in the beginning. They do not laugh anymore. I have even laid out tiles in the back yard. I must have ‘forgotten’ how to do these things. 3.1. Challenges, obstacles and constraints encountered It is possible to map out a series of transverse themes which can be described as challenges or in some relations even obstacles. 3.1.1. Leadership and management The venture to obtain a gender balanced staff in kindergarten is a race against odds, if the local and municipal political authorities have no intention to practise gender mainstreaming beyond the legislative standards. It takes strong leadership as one on the projects put it. One may succeed with a funding, but it is compulsory to have a political back-up in order to retain, preserve and develop the results achieved. This goes for the daily leadership in the kindergarten as well. A precise, detailed and well-known gender policy in the municipality will never prosper if the leaders of the kindergartens themselves refrain from taking on a management responsibility in this respect. Together with the leaders of the kindergartens the board members must be involved and take on responsibility. Furthermore, the conveyed policy and principles of the actual kindergarten needs to be taken into account. A leader of one of the projects had made this observation: I am amazed that none of my fellow colleagues had any questions. She considered this lack of interest among peers an obstacle. 3.1.2. Parents Not every parent thinks the presence of male pedagogues a blessing. He or she may find it hard to believe a male pedagogue is able to offer care and attention or may even see men as a possible risk. This observation was made by almost all of the projects. On the opposite, some parents are quite enthusiastic when they spot a
  • 11. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 11 11 man in the kindergarten. In their point of view football and fire finally may be added to the daily activities. One male pedagogue had to explain this was not necessarily the case. This man was transferred to an institution with no male pedagogues. He had to explain to the parents that he had plenty of responsibilities to perform and that building a campfire was not the epitome of his pedagogical qualities. 3.1.3. Gender, body and expectations Every project has experienced challenges affiliated to gender, body and expectations. Participants have explained this by referring to culture, paradigms and societal patterns. Nevertheless the expectations towards male pedagogues taking upon them to work in kindergartens are easily summed up; these men are met with specific hopes – and prejudices. Our performance and attachment to the children have changed a lot. The activities are different and so are we. (Pedagogues in Hjørring). Hjørring Municipality described their initial position as a strong belief in the combination of men and wild- life and male sets of values. They admitted afterwards they had been certain a male pedagogue would bring about a lot of new activities (campfire, rope ways, tree- climbing). But we know better now, as one of the participants put it. The pedagogues have changed their opinion of men and women and their abilities and they have changed their opinion on their personal capacities. Expectations and prejudices towards one gender nourish expectations towards another gender and restraining structural patterns are created and upheld. Based on these records a series of brief maxims are:  The only possible way to broaden viewpoints is by constantly challenging the images and the ideas of diversity, gender and gender roles. The pedagogical leader of the kindergarten should take charge of this.  Prejudice and bias affiliated to gender and work is hard to come by in terms of childcare.  Bodies create anticipations, but abilities have not gender stamped on to it. Some women are keen on outdoor life, some men are happy with storytelling.  Do not expect everybody to think gender-mainstreaming in the kindergarten is a brilliant idea.  Routines, patterns and unquestioned schemes may cloud the picture.
  • 12. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 12 12 4. Assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the good practice 4.1. Introduction The projects have worked intensely and have made essential observations although some undertakings were changed and not every part of the plans came to life. However; further research into some of the observations is necessary. 4.2. Strengths  For the sake of the children The projects have taken into consideration how the children may benefit from a more diverse and a more gender-balanced staff. Children need a multiplicity of different identification possibilities. Pedagogues naturally must represent the societal diversity and therefore be male and female. Even though the discourse ‘for the sake of the boys’ has a part in this argumentation, the projects have been able to set aside the ‘boys-only rhetoric’ and include the girls. This is an acknowledgment of changed parenthood, new father’s role, new images of kindergartens, and men and women as professional child-care-givers. Many parents have stated that their children are happy with the variety in activities. This may be caused by the activities being new, different, and sometimes a bit ‘wild’. Finally some fathers have expressed their satisfaction when being able to talk to a male pedagogue.  A wake-up call Although different approaches and varied outcomes none of the projects had anticipated that activities and arrangements would make them discover their own patterns and routines, prejudices and notions. Many of the participants were astonished by solid and rigid beliefs in gender, body and abilities. They were affected when they realised how this may have inflicted on their choices and decision and on how often they had just taken things for granted.  Adverts A mutual strength is the discovery of the factual systems and procedures when looking for new fellow pedagogues. Apparently, the design, the language and the procedure has developed unquestioned over time and the procedure has been framed by a certain undisputed ‘air of care’. Seemingly a construction has taken place; a construction and replication of firm ideas of the colleague to be and of non- formal but solid expectations to performance when invited for an interview. Every project has recognised and worked hard to remove restraining procedures.  Questioning daily routine Routines are dreary but should be questioned as most of the projects have set out to do so. Questioning may not be sufficient and all along the road individuals tend to fall back into recognisable structures and schemes. Promoting more staff diversity and gender balance can help to challenge daily routine and to bring about new impulses and innovation.
  • 13. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 13 13  Contact to students A prior contact to male students on information eves and meetings with students in the BA programme was a very good approach. These students were (and are) likely to be fresh sources of knowledge. They have chosen or are about to choose this BA programme for good and solid reasons and their motives and aspirations may stimulate the actions to gender-balance kindergarten staff.  It is not a only question of ‘more men’ An increase in the number of male pedagogues is likely to prosper from a change of how this increase is described and is anticipated to take place. As an alternative to ‘more male pedagogues’, it is a matter of ‘more credit to a profession’. The Danish kindergartens offer the very best of care because of highly professional pedagogues. 4.3. Weaknesses A series of starting points have formed the basis of most of the activities. These suppositions may be described as weaknesses:  Men are different According to the public opinion, men are expected to contribute via 'natural' abilities, and preferably these abilities only. The present staffs – the established professional pedagogues of whom the majority is women – are the ones to define the acquired skills or type or contribution required. Individuals are put off by restrictions linked to their conduct when the restrictions are based on gendered dogmas.  Little use of knowledge of men’s reasons to become pedagogues Apparently none of the projects have examined why men choose to become pedagogues. Given the fact that (some) men are employed in kindergartens and that men are rather visible in the BA programme, valid information may have been obtained beforehand. Available information should be taken into consideration, when projects decide to attract and recruit colleagues into jobs where the acquired individuals are defined as the minority.  Permanent changes or just slight modifications It is less noticeable whether the presence of (more future) male pedagogues is expected to bring anything else but (some) anticipated changes in routines and procedures. It is also unclear whether the anticipated changes mean changes up to a certain point and then ‘business as usual’.  Empirical approach There is much room for improvement when it comes to the empirical approach. How the questions were constructed, tested and validated, how the interviews were performed and how the answers were analysed and by which categorisations is imperceptible and therefore questionable. The classification of activities in the kindergarten as either male or female is problematic. The underlying reasons for making such a division are vague, so is the ‘prior research’ and method by which this classification has taken place. That no man is present in a kindergarten cannot lead to the deduction of abilities not being present.
  • 14. Denmark Denmark, 29-30 September 2015 14 14  Woman originators Only few men were among the originators of the projects and only one man was a front figure, the fact being that women are the majority in childcare. Knowing that the very few men in childcare may inspire other men, the projects should consider this and men should be asked to take lead of some of the initiatives and activities. 5. Main questions and issues for debate at the meeting  Which of the projects or actions mentioned would be transferable to your country?  Why this project and why these activities?  What would it take were you to instigate a similar project in your country?  Which formal qualifications are needed in childcare/kindergartens/crèches?  What is the main obstacle for attracting men to childcare?  Have you any men employed in childcare? There is a mutual agreement among the projects that children benefit from observing daily doings being performed by both genders. Nevertheless, the daily doings in the kindergartens have been divided into distinct gendered doings, unquestioned over time. The actual division is somewhat blurred, but kindergarten pedagogues are women with few exceptions, meaning the women are the dividers. How can we overcome this?