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SHARED
                                         BITE
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     INFLUENCE
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                 EXPER-
                                       SIZED
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                 IENCE
 S                                     INSPIRATION
                    ER
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                                       RELEVANCE
                 RE
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            CA




THE FUTURE
OF LEARNING
                 PRACTICAL
VALUE


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                                                   AN




                 COMMUNICATION
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                  Brought to you by:              TECHNOLOGY
                                       FL




                                                  INDIV
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                                          I ILI




                                                  IDUAL
                                        T




                                                  ITY
                                          Y
WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF LEARNING?
In 2012, consultants from Blue Phoenix                       Intrigued by this, “The Future of Learning”
and thetrainingstudio collaborated to host                   research groups were designed to get new
a number of research groups looking into                     and honest information from the front
the learning habits and aspirations of                       line – the Gen Y learners themselves.
Generation Y.
                                                             Delegates were gathered from a broad
Between them, they work with some of the                     spectrum of industries and volunteered
biggest organisations in the UK and Europe,                  their time to get involved. Whilst the identities
providing training & consultancy advice                      of the delegates remain confidential,
on a range of business and people issues.                    the topics discussed, and their honest
Increasingly in the past few years, clients                  and frank responses, are recorded
are talking more about the challenges that                   in this report.
Generation Y bring to the work place.


David Liversage and Liz Jones discuss their objectives for the project below:




                            DAVID LIVERSAGE                                           LIZ JONES
                            Blue Phoenix                                              thetrainingstudio



“As we increasingly find ourselves working with Gen Y,       “thetrainingstudio was founded in 2010 specifically
it’s easy to make lots of assumptions about how they         to help businesses attract, develop & retain their
like to learn. What we wanted to do with this project        Generation Y talent, so I jumped at the chance
is create conversations with a representative sample         to be involved in this research. The majority of
from this group to help us gain more insight into their      available research paints Gen Y in a negative light
relationship with learning and their expectations of it in   (lazy, unwilling to make long term commitments to
an organisational context. Soon, they will make up over      employers, etc.) and I was keen to use this project
half the working population so they are very much a          to gather some new data, direct from the Gen Y-ers
part of the landscape for the future of learning.            themselves. The result has been some thoroughly
It’s important we listen to them and plan accordingly.       interesting insights that, if heeded, will make a
This report is the result of those conversations.            real impact in the organisations that listen.”
Enjoy reading and please let us know what you think.”




                                                                                                                   1
WHAT WE DID...
We gathered qualitative feedback from clients about the issues they were seeing emerging with
Generation Y and their relationship with learning. We also studied recent reports from
institutions like Ashridge Business School, the CIPD and the CMI, as well as reading the
latest books from leaders in this field (see Bibliography at the end of the report).

We then gathered a collection of Gen Y delegates to discuss and debate to try to get to the
bottom of one simple question: what is the future of learning?




 WHO ARE GEN Y?
Within the next six years, over half of the working population will be made up of Generation Y.
Born between 1980 and the early 1990’s, this generation are (in the most part) children of the
Baby Boomers. Their size dwarfs that of Generation X (born 1965 – 80) and the significance of
their ‘coming of age’ cannot be ignored by businesses.

                                                 Often labelled as lazy, unwilling to make
                                                 commitments to employers and wanting the
                                                 top job on day one, this generation is already
                                                 making an impact on organisations both big
                                                 and small. They are the first truly ‘global’
                                                 generation, who will most likely never retire
                                                 and are instantly connected to millions of
                                                 people through the rapid rise in social media
                                                 and online networking.

                                                 Whilst the implications of this generation’s work
                                                 ethic, global mobility and approach to work is
                                                 far reaching, this project was designed to look
                                                 specifically at the impact they are having (or
                                                 want to have) on the L&D function within the
                                                 organisations in which they work/want to work
                                                 in the future.

                                                 So what sort of an impact does this generation
                                                 have? And what do they want to get from the
                                                 organisations in which they work?
                                                                                                  2
OUTCOME CATEGORIES
We have split the outcomes into five chapters to help navigate the research:




                             2
1




                                                             3
             all about                         all about                       broad themes
                 accountability                                                   about content
 W




                                                   ways to learn
                                    H


                                                                    W
                    for learning
                                        OW
       H




                                                                         H
       O




                                                                               AT
         4



                                                 5

                           the importance of                           ideal time frames
                                                        W
           W




                              the learning                                & flexible learning
                                 environment
                                                             H
                   H




                                                                   EN
                       ER
                                   E




                        This symbol indicates a question that was
                        posed to the group for stimulus




                                                                                                3
1. WHO
                    What if all learning was done individually and the responsibility for it was
                    with each individual?
                    What do you think about tailored vs off-the-shelf L&D Programmes?
                    How often (if ever) are you asked for your opinion on training that you get?
                    Do other people hinder/help your development
                    (e.g. other delegates in sessions)?




The delegates discussed the programmes             Camaraderie is important. Delegates liked
offered to them by the L&D function                going to training sessions where they worked
of their organisations. All agreed that            with different members of the organisation
programmes should be regularly reviewed            and got a chance to network (internally) as
(taking into consideration feedback                well as learn.
received) to ensure that training on offer
was relevant, of value and up to date
(in terms of learning objectives).

None of the delegates involved in the study
had ever been asked about what, or how,
they wanted to learn within their
current organisation.

There was some frustration around the use of
feedback – mainly around the lack of change
seen after feedback is collected.
                                                   There was agreement that being in
                                                   sessions with managers/senior figures
                                                   hindered the learning experience and that
                        FOR EXAMPLE
                                                   they felt they were being “judged” rather
                                                   than encouraged to explore/develop.
                        I put that I don’t like
                        PPT learning on a
                        feedback form –            The delegates were asked if they would be
                        that was six months        prepared to write a business case for their
                        ago and I am still         learning – the majority said that they would be
                        asked to go to             willing to put together a case for new learning
                        sessions using PPT.        options, if (a big ‘if’) they knew that the
                                                   company would take the process seriously.

                                                                                                   4
{      Speakers (internal or external) need to be
                           personable, energetic & ‘know their stuff’.


                    How important is the facilitator to the success of the session, and why?

                    It was unanimous that the use of external speakers/’experts’ was exciting
                    and these sessions were always well attended.

They also like to hear from internal
people who have had success within
the organisation (i.e. business role models),
but that it was important to them that                  It was agreed that it was good when
these schemes are taken seriously by the                facilitators know a bit about the delegates,
organisation (e.g. delegates given enough               the culture and the business before a session
time to go, and the speaker given enough time           to help them make it feel bespoke. Credit was
to prepare something interesting).                      given to L&D teams who strive to achieve this.




 KEY LEARNINGS
Gen Y want to be treated as individuals                 It is tough for L&D teams – trying to juggle
(which contrasts to their often noted ‘pack’            a varied training programme with the
mentality in the workplace). In terms of                increasing flow of young talent in and out of
learning, L&D professionals should always               their organisations. As the migration of talent
keep the user journey/experience in mind                continues, it will be the teams who are able
(understandably a challenge when budgets                to be flexible, put outcomes over expense
are stretched).                                         and see all learning as important, that will
                                                        win the favour of the Gen Y population in
                                                        their organisations.



                    “In many organisations there is a disconnect between what learners want and what the
                    company needs them to learn. In a time-poor society, every session counts and both
                    businesses & the individual learners must be satisfied. Trust on both sides is important –
                    trust that Gen Y talent are worth listening to and do know what’s useful for them to learn,
                    and trust that the L&D programme is being designed with them in mind. In more cases
                    than not, it is clear communication around training that is key to programme success.”




                                                                                                                  5
2. HOW
                    {      Just because we are Gen Y doesn’t mean
                           everything has to be done on a computer.


                    What if all learning was done via technology?

                    A strong and unanimous view was that if all learning was computer based
                    they’d “hate it”. It would be too impersonal and “wouldn’t allow you to actually
                    absorb and engage in a deeper understanding”.

One participant told us a story about a recent    They weren’t keen on the idea of taking
e-learning experience: “I went through the        work/learning home. We asked them if they
questions but didn’t learn anything” he said.     would consider using social media, such as
He was more concerned about passing the           Facebook, as a pre/post session platform for
quiz at the end than actually learning and so     discussions, and there was a unanimous “No”
found ways to ‘cheat’ the system - learning to    when it came to using Facebook.
pass rather than learning to develop.

Technology is important but it needs to be
used effectively. For example, YouTube clips
as stimulus, websites as a visual aid or using
iPads for interactive voting were seen as good
ideas. An online library of resources was
seen as a good use of technology or using a
post-session app (e.g. ‘10 things to remember
when you are doing a PDR’).                       They were, however, happy to use
                                                  professional sites, such as LinkedIn, for
A blended approach was by far the most            discussions and forums on work-related
desired, such as using actors in role plays,      topics. Only one delegate had been to a
group discussion, coaching, interesting and       session that involved Twitter and everyone
relevant tasks and on the job learning, all       agreed that they would be interested in using
supported and enhanced by online forums           this medium more (both during and leading
& technology.                                     up to/after sessions).




                    {         Facebook is for me outside of work –
                              I don’t want to mix the two.

                                                                                                6
The use of hypothetical learning scenarios               Flexibility is key to Gen Y. If something is
was an area for debate. A couple of people               compulsory they needed to understand why
liked the opportunity to practice before being           – the WIIFM (‘what’s in it for me’) factor.
let go on ‘real’ projects, whereas the majority          They would like to have choice in selecting
felt that university was their chance to                 modules according to their specific needs.
practice and they were frustrated by not being
allowed to work on ‘real’ projects now that              An important theme that arose throughout the
they were in work. They strongly felt that they          discussion was around the “communication
wanted training that is grown up, engaging               of learning”; a real need/desire to be
and useful - not patronising or too gimmicky.            informed about what’s on offer and what the
                                                         sessions are about.



 KEY LEARNINGS
A clear message to anyone planning training              Just because this generation are very tech
programmes for young talent –                            savvy, it doesn’t mean that they want to lose
don’t automatically think that digital is the            the human interaction that they value
answer. The most well received programmes                so highly. Gen Y want to be treated like
are those that blend in the new technologies             grown-ups. Where possible, allow them to get
with the more traditional training                       stuck into real world projects and learn from
techniques used in                                       colleagues, rather than incubating them on
face-to-face sessions.                                   hypothetical projects that makes them feel
                                   NEW
                                       TECH              like “we’re still at Uni”.

                                             AL
                                        ITION
                                   TRAD
                                    TECH




                    “We know the value people put on face-time with colleagues; giving them the opportunity to
                    share views and knowledge. Using technology to help with this as a means to an end rather
                    than the end itself is key. Avoiding falling into the trap of doing everything online with the
                    latest gadgetry is important; think about the role of support materials and talk to people
                    about what they might want to use. How about a ‘top ten tips app’ for an iPhone or access to
                    an e-library for learning? It will vary by culture and project so think about the relevance and
                    how they might use what you are offering them.”



                    “I am regularly asked by clients to add a ‘Social’ element in to my workshops to engage the
                    young people. I steer them away from Facebook as so many of my Gen Y contacts tell me
                    they want to keep things separate. I’m a big fan of Twitter and think organisations should
                    be using it much more to promote training and to get people talking about good sessions/
                    interesting content/further reading etc. Clients with their own internal intranet also need to
                    really think about how best to use this platform, both for efficiency & engagement.
                    These are both highly under-utilised forums for communication.”
                                                                                                                 7
3. WHAT
                   {
                          One size fits all doesn’t work with Gen Y
                          - we can tell if the L&D programme is the
                          same year in, year out.


                   What will an annual training programme look like for Gen Y
                   in the future?
                   What is your favourite type of learning?
                   What would you do if you could control your own L&D budget?



Gen Y do share some views but the delegates              I don’t just want to
were keen to point out that they don’t all
think the same and want to be thought of as
                                                         get better skills for
individuals (like any other defined groups).             my current job - I
With time and pace being such a challenge,               want to gain skills
they really need to understand the benefit of
what they will learn and how it can help them            for my future career
in their jobs. With this in mind, we didn’t              – whether that’s with
attempt to analyse desired content at a micro            my current employer
level but instead we probed into broader areas
to seek any common or interesting themes.                or not.

100% agreed that the most attractive types       One thing that seemed to be absent is clarity
of training were those that gave them skills     around career vision and direction. It was felt
they could see as useful in their long-term      having open forums with senior managers
careers, as opposed to skills that just made     would help with this (giving insights into their
them better at their current job.                career, etc). Mentoring and coaching from
                                                 direct line managers is important too.



                   Would you like to receive rewards/qualifications in return for your training?


                   When talking about qualifications, they agreed that they wanted to receive
                   recognition for the training they attended, but internal qualifications were
                   thought of as ‘gimmicky’ – they’d rather have an industry recognised or
                   external qualification.
                                                                                                   8
If you were given £5,000 to spend on your own development,
                    what would you spend it on?




                15%                                         10%
                               Something I wouldn’t                      If global company, would go abroad
                               normally do, even if it                   & learn from counterparts there
                               means no promotion


                                                                              5%
                30%
                                                                                         Job Secondment




                                                                                  20%
                Something that
                would help in
                the future -
                                                                                  Multi-skill courses,
                not just with
                                                                                  e.g. data systems &
                today’s job, e.g.
                                                                                  presentations skills
                further studies



                                                                                  Things you don’t
                                                                                  get taught and get

                                                                 20%
                                                                                  thrown into, e.g. how
                                                                                  to be a manager



All delegates said in the first instance they would spend the money on something that would be
useful throughout life (e.g. a Masters degree). They all liked the idea of having more control
over how training budgets were spent on their behalf. Responses included, using the money
to travel to other offices within the company to see how they do things, completing an MA, and
having more ‘off-site’ sessions in ‘cool’ locations.

There was a discussion around the challenges             One theme they all agreed on was that
faced by L&D teams regarding people signing              there had been a significant decline recently
up for sessions and then not attending.                  in the time/effort spent on team building and
Two comments were noted:                                 maintaining effective working teams.
                                                         They’d like to see more emphasis placed on
1. Managers should be told in advance                    team building, more reward/recognition for
which courses their team are attending so                high performing teams and on-going training
that they can plan their time accordingly                programmes designed to keep teams
                                                         working well together.
2. If someone cancels, they should have to
find someone to take their place and it should           Collaborative learning experiences were
be noted in a record somewhere                           seen as essential – working with people from
                                                         different parts of the business on real projects
                                                         where there is a clear benefit. All delegates
                                                         were interested in the idea of internal
                                                         job-swapping/apprenticeships with senior
                                                         managers and secondments.
                                                                                                        9
KEY LEARNINGS
When deciding what does and doesn’t get                The most interesting trend was a desire for
included in annual training programmes,                ‘life learning’ (transferable skills) rather
L&D professionals face a huge challenge to             than just ‘job learning’. Engagement levels
please everyone involved. The Gen Y delegates          on programmes giving a skill for life were
were really keen to be more involved in the            much higher than on those that are only
planning of training programmes, giving them           beneficial in the short-term. The cost of
an opportunity to ensure that what they are            training gave rise to some very interesting
learning is relevant and useful to their role          discussions – with very few delegates having
(and beyond).                                          any idea at all the financial commitment
                                                       that their organisations are making to their
                                                       development through training.




                   “Training Needs Analysis can be limiting. People tend to ask for what they think is on offer
                   (usual suspects like presentation skills) and often have a blind spot to what could be made
                   available to them, e.g. career coaching, professional qualifications, etc. We recommend a
                   bottom-up and top-down approach in defining real learning needs. Managers need to talk
                   more with individuals, find out where the skills gaps are and what support they need to
                   develop behaviour, skills and attitudes to enable them to be more motivated and become
                   high performers. As Gen Y make up a large group with specific needs to address,
                   how about setting up your own Gen Y consultative panel?”




                                                                                                             10
LOCAT



 4. WHERE
                                                                    I ON
                                                                             LOCAT
                                                                                   ION
                                                                    TION
                                                                LOCA



           Often when a training notification comes around,
           I check where it is. If it is in a certain room,
           I instantly say no, without even looking at what
           the session is about. The room is just horrible.

                    What if learning was taken out of the traditional environment?


                    When it came to the ‘where training was run’, everyone agreed that
                    training offsite was more inspiring, engaging and motivating than onsite.
                    One delegate stated, “When I’m training offsite, I’m instantly in the zone”.

Offsite venues don’t need to be expensive or             It helps if the learning environment reflects
glamorous – just a light space somewhere                 what the session is about (e.g. how about
different brings a different energy to the               presentation training in a TV studio?).
session; even just going to the park for a               If sessions are run onsite, it was felt that
session seemed to get their interest.                    more effort could be put into using stimuli
Onsite sessions are invariably prone                     to create the right learning environment.
to distractions e.g. checking emails at break            As someone put it, “we’ve spent too much
times, often don’t start on time, and are                time in uni lecture theatres so we need the
easy for “managers to drag me away from”.                work learning environment to be different”.




 KEY LEARNINGS
The learning environment is very often overlooked by organisations – sweating the small
things like refreshments, lighting, temperature etc., can make a real impact on the success
of a session. The high speed/high pressure nature of today’s office environment make it
a real challenge for learners to ‘switch off and zone in’ if sessions are held onsite.
Inspirational, relevant training spaces don’t have to cost a lot – why not challenge
the learners themselves to think of some low-cost ‘cool’ venues?


                    “Environment is such an important ingredient in making workshops successful.
                    The brain needs stimulation and inspiration – you don’t need to spend a fortune but try
                    and be creative when you plan sessions. Ideally, to get participants’ attention and focus –
                    offsite locations are much more effective than onsite. If there is no budget for this, consider
                    internal options and think about what you can do to create a better learning environment.”
                                                                                                                11
5. WHEN

                    {                                                                      {
                           I want my manager to know when I am
                           due to be away from my desk for training
                           – that way they can manage my workload
                           and plan for me not being around.


                    How do you rate the volume of training within your organisation?
                    What’s your view on the duration of training sessions
                    and when they take place?



The general consensus was that one-day,           Time of day is important to get right – 100%
or two half-days, per quarter felt about          agreed that they prefer morning sessions,
right and that most of this should be             as that’s when they are most awake (!).
self-nominated.
                                                  An important element for Gen Y is to know
Half-day blocks were very popular, as they        that the company takes training seriously –
don’t mean too much time out of the office.       and one way to do that is not to move training
Time is key so any short cuts or bite-sized       (e.g. if something more ‘important’ turns up).
learning is essential, though they realise that
some topics need longer time dedicated            The delegates wanted their learning
to them.                                          to be viewed as importantly as their
                                                  client work/day job – and having dedicated
In terms of prep work, the majority seemed        ‘learning times’ could be the answer.
happy to do some short prep work before a
session (e.g. listening to a podcast on the way
in to work) providing it was engaging
and brief. If the learning was to make the job
easier or quicker, they would welcome it.




                                                                                                 12
{
       I’d leave an organisation if the training was rubbish.
       I want to be working for a company that takes training
       and development seriously.
A theme that ran throughout the
discussions was that of the relevance               “Reed College at that time offered perhaps
of training. Delegates knew there were              the best calligraphy instruction in the country.
core skills that they needed, but also              Throughout the campus, every poster, every
wanted L&D teams to be able to provide a            label on every drawer, was beautifully hand
                                                    calligraphed. Because I had dropped out [of Reed
flexible programme that allowed them to pick
                                                    after the first six months] and didn’t have to take
up other skills throughout the year (“I was put     the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy
on a new team with a new remit, looked at the       class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif
training schedule and saw that I’d have to wait     and san serif typefaces, about varying the amount
over six months for the session I needed”).         of space between different letter combinations,
                                                    about what makes great typography great. It
                                                    was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in
Allowing talent to enhance skills that
                                                    a way that science can’t capture, and I found it
aren’t seen as currently business critical
                                                    fascinating.
sparked interesting discussions.
Interestingly, our pre-group research               None of this had even a hope of any practical
had uncovered the following story                   application in my life. But ten years later, when
from Steve Jobs:                                    we were designing the first Mac computer, it all
                                                    came back to me. And we designed it all into
                                                    the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful
                                                    typography. If I had never dropped in on that
                                                    single course in college, the Mac would have
                                                    never had multiple typefaces or proportionally
                                                    spaced fonts. Of course it was impossible to
                                                    connect the dots looking forward when I was
                                                    in college. But it was very, very clear looking
                                                    backwards ten years later.”




The Gen Y talent in organisations are looking to the programme designers/L&D team to be
able to look at the bigger picture and develop them in multiple areas (not just the obvious) to
help unleash their potential.




                                                                                                           13
KEY LEARNINGS
The timeliness of training needs to be                   L&D teams should be encouraged to look at
taken seriously by an organisation (from the             new and innovative ways to deliver training,
top down). Managers need to know what                    for example, set a target that at least 25% of
training their Gen Y talent are meant to                 the next annual spend on training will be on
attend, when they should be attending it and             developing/exploring ‘non-traditional’ skill
what objectives there are for the session.               sets.
Not only will this mean that young talent are
encouraged to attend sessions, but that their
managers should be able to challenge them
to use their new skills back in everyday life.



                    “Short, bite-sized sessions are a great way to keep Gen Y engaged. I do a number of
                    ‘boomerang’ courses, which are two two-hour sessions with three or four weeks in
                    between sessions, allowing delegates to learn something, test it in reality, and then reflect
                    with their learning group at the second session. Any time dedicated to training is great –
                    just make sure that the whole organisation is aligned on the importance of training,
                    so that it’s not just seen to be a ‘nice to have’, but an essential business, and people,
                    development tool.




                                                                                                               14
BARRIERS TO LEARNING
We asked the participants two questions:

1. 	     What would stop you going to a    2. 	     What are the main things that attract 	
	        training session?                 	        you to learning?




    MAIN BARRIERS AND ATTRACTIONS
    •	 Locality/Environment                    •	 Good communication of
    •	 People attending                        		 what’s on offer
    	 (i.e. don’t like training                •	 Having ‘training for me’ –
    	 with my manager)                         		 recognising individuality
    •	 Overly long & intense                   •	 Having ownership
    •	 Overly formal structure                 •	 Job relevant training
    •	 No relevant learning outcomes           •	 Training for career – training
    •	   Lack of authority on topic            		 for life not just current role
    	    (inexperienced trainers who           •	   Having influence in a proper lifecycle
    	    were unfamiliar with their            		   to influence direction training 	
    	    working environment)                  		   takes (pre/train/feedback/		
    •	 Compulsory vs personal choice           		   train/feedback)

    •	 Course content                          •	 Training being valued by the
                                               		 organisation and having 		
    •	 Not contributing to their work          		 ‘permission to go’
    •	 Gimmicky titles                         •	 Learning as a shared experience
    •	 Uninspiring                             •	   Branded learning (e.g. if a programme 	
    •	 Lack of understanding                   		   has a logo/folder it shows 	more 	
    	 regarding WIIFM                          		   care than just old handouts 	
                                               		   stapled together)
                                               •	 Practical learning that can be applied
                                               •	 Inspiration – speakers/trainers
                                               •	 Bite-sized
                                                                                         15
SO WHAT CAN YOU DO?
Gen Y share some common traits, demands and preferences but they are all individuals.
Like any other demographic, the important thing is on-going dialogue and getting
an understanding of their specific needs.

Whilst we don’t suggest that every desire can be catered for, there are some things you can
do to ensure that the Gen Y talent in your organisations feel that they have a voice and that,
most importantly, training is valued in your organisation.




         Create learner profiles          Bridge the gap between            What can your leadership
         when people join – what          different groups of               team do to create a
         is their natural learning        learners e.g. what can            culture of learning that
         profile and what’s               your Gen Y learn from             allows people to flourish
         important to individuals?        your Gen X talent and             & demonstrates the value
         Add this as part of the          visa versa?                       that your organisation
         induction process.                                                 places on it?




         Create a coaching &              Provide opportunities for         Create learning
         mentoring culture to help        people to work together           programmes that
         with career direction.           on projects from different        empower the individual
          At a minimum, ensure line       areas of the organisation.        to create their own
         managers meet with those         They’ll learn from each other     development plan (in
         they manage solely to talk       & it’ll break down barriers,      consultation with line
         about training needs.            leading to more effective         managers).
                                          working teams.




         Keep end user journey            Look at everything with a         Talk to us! Both of
         in mind when planning            Gen Y eye – are you being         our organisations
         programmes – of course           gimmicky? Are you using           are passionate about
         finances, business objectives    technology for the sake of it?    learning, and about young
         etc. are important, but always   If possible, set up an internal   talent – so do get in touch
         return to the same question –    Gen Y panel to sense check        if you’d like to explore any
         what will the learners get out   everything (from course name      of these findings further.
         of this training?                to branding and content).




                                                                                                           16
CONTACT US


                            DAVID LIVERSAGE                                         LIZ JONES
                            Founder                                                 Founder
                            Blue Phoenix                                            thetrainingstudio


E: david@bluephoenixpeople.com                               E: lizj@thetrainingstudio.net
M: 07968 720303                                              M: 07769 770269
www.bluephoenixpeople.com                                    www.thetrainingstudio.net


David is the Founder of Blue Phoenix People,               Liz is the founder and lead consultant at
a company offering cutting edge people                     thetrainingstudio, a training and consultancy company
development solutions. Our goal is to ‘Breathe Life        specialising in the engagement and development of
into Work’ which is reflected in our engaging, practical   Generation Y in the work place.
and down-to-earth approach. We are collaborative
and flexible and work with you as a learning partner       thetrainingstudio works in many different industries
to develop solutions that are right for your business.     helping organisations attract, develop and retain
We draw on our network of over 20 expert associates        their young talent. From training graduates how to
to deliver according to your needs, whether it be          be professional, to consulting HR teams on their
‘How To Deliver The Winning Pitch’, developing a           recruitment strategies, thetrainingstudio works with
culture of learning within your organisation,              companies to engage talent at all levels and produce
or a programme of management essentials.                   effective cross-generational teams.

Whatever the project, we focus on leaving a lasting
impact that represents value to the organisation and
helps your people and business to thrive.




                                                                                                                  17
FURTHER READING
If you are interested in reading more about Gen Y, here are some of the resources that we used
as stimulus for The Future of Learning research groups:




                  Generation Y: Inside Out
                  (an Ashridge Business School white paper)




                          Great Expectations
                          (an Ashridge Business School & the Institute
                          of Leadership & Management report)



                   Not Everyone Gets a Trophy (Bruce Tulgan)

                                                                         )
                                            Socialnomics (Eric Qualman

                       The World According to Y (Rebecca Huntley)

                             Born Digital (John Palfrey & Urs Gasser)

                     The ‘New’ Rules of Engagement (Michael McQueen)



                 The Shift: The Future of work is already here (Lynda Gratton)




The content of this report remains the property of Blue Phoenix & thetrainingstudio
and should not be reproduced in any format without prior consent by a representative from
either company.
                                                                                             18

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The Future Of Learning

  • 1. SHARED BITE O INFLUENCE W EXPER- SIZED N E R IENCE S INSPIRATION ER H I RELEVANCE RE P CA THE FUTURE OF LEARNING PRACTICAL VALUE BR AN COMMUNICATION DI N G Brought to you by: TECHNOLOGY FL INDIV EX & B I ILI IDUAL T ITY Y
  • 2. WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF LEARNING? In 2012, consultants from Blue Phoenix Intrigued by this, “The Future of Learning” and thetrainingstudio collaborated to host research groups were designed to get new a number of research groups looking into and honest information from the front the learning habits and aspirations of line – the Gen Y learners themselves. Generation Y. Delegates were gathered from a broad Between them, they work with some of the spectrum of industries and volunteered biggest organisations in the UK and Europe, their time to get involved. Whilst the identities providing training & consultancy advice of the delegates remain confidential, on a range of business and people issues. the topics discussed, and their honest Increasingly in the past few years, clients and frank responses, are recorded are talking more about the challenges that in this report. Generation Y bring to the work place. David Liversage and Liz Jones discuss their objectives for the project below: DAVID LIVERSAGE LIZ JONES Blue Phoenix thetrainingstudio “As we increasingly find ourselves working with Gen Y, “thetrainingstudio was founded in 2010 specifically it’s easy to make lots of assumptions about how they to help businesses attract, develop & retain their like to learn. What we wanted to do with this project Generation Y talent, so I jumped at the chance is create conversations with a representative sample to be involved in this research. The majority of from this group to help us gain more insight into their available research paints Gen Y in a negative light relationship with learning and their expectations of it in (lazy, unwilling to make long term commitments to an organisational context. Soon, they will make up over employers, etc.) and I was keen to use this project half the working population so they are very much a to gather some new data, direct from the Gen Y-ers part of the landscape for the future of learning. themselves. The result has been some thoroughly It’s important we listen to them and plan accordingly. interesting insights that, if heeded, will make a This report is the result of those conversations. real impact in the organisations that listen.” Enjoy reading and please let us know what you think.” 1
  • 3. WHAT WE DID... We gathered qualitative feedback from clients about the issues they were seeing emerging with Generation Y and their relationship with learning. We also studied recent reports from institutions like Ashridge Business School, the CIPD and the CMI, as well as reading the latest books from leaders in this field (see Bibliography at the end of the report). We then gathered a collection of Gen Y delegates to discuss and debate to try to get to the bottom of one simple question: what is the future of learning? WHO ARE GEN Y? Within the next six years, over half of the working population will be made up of Generation Y. Born between 1980 and the early 1990’s, this generation are (in the most part) children of the Baby Boomers. Their size dwarfs that of Generation X (born 1965 – 80) and the significance of their ‘coming of age’ cannot be ignored by businesses. Often labelled as lazy, unwilling to make commitments to employers and wanting the top job on day one, this generation is already making an impact on organisations both big and small. They are the first truly ‘global’ generation, who will most likely never retire and are instantly connected to millions of people through the rapid rise in social media and online networking. Whilst the implications of this generation’s work ethic, global mobility and approach to work is far reaching, this project was designed to look specifically at the impact they are having (or want to have) on the L&D function within the organisations in which they work/want to work in the future. So what sort of an impact does this generation have? And what do they want to get from the organisations in which they work? 2
  • 4. OUTCOME CATEGORIES We have split the outcomes into five chapters to help navigate the research: 2 1 3 all about all about broad themes accountability about content W ways to learn H W for learning OW H H O AT 4 5 the importance of ideal time frames W W the learning & flexible learning environment H H EN ER E This symbol indicates a question that was posed to the group for stimulus 3
  • 5. 1. WHO What if all learning was done individually and the responsibility for it was with each individual? What do you think about tailored vs off-the-shelf L&D Programmes? How often (if ever) are you asked for your opinion on training that you get? Do other people hinder/help your development (e.g. other delegates in sessions)? The delegates discussed the programmes Camaraderie is important. Delegates liked offered to them by the L&D function going to training sessions where they worked of their organisations. All agreed that with different members of the organisation programmes should be regularly reviewed and got a chance to network (internally) as (taking into consideration feedback well as learn. received) to ensure that training on offer was relevant, of value and up to date (in terms of learning objectives). None of the delegates involved in the study had ever been asked about what, or how, they wanted to learn within their current organisation. There was some frustration around the use of feedback – mainly around the lack of change seen after feedback is collected. There was agreement that being in sessions with managers/senior figures hindered the learning experience and that FOR EXAMPLE they felt they were being “judged” rather than encouraged to explore/develop. I put that I don’t like PPT learning on a feedback form – The delegates were asked if they would be that was six months prepared to write a business case for their ago and I am still learning – the majority said that they would be asked to go to willing to put together a case for new learning sessions using PPT. options, if (a big ‘if’) they knew that the company would take the process seriously. 4
  • 6. { Speakers (internal or external) need to be personable, energetic & ‘know their stuff’. How important is the facilitator to the success of the session, and why? It was unanimous that the use of external speakers/’experts’ was exciting and these sessions were always well attended. They also like to hear from internal people who have had success within the organisation (i.e. business role models), but that it was important to them that It was agreed that it was good when these schemes are taken seriously by the facilitators know a bit about the delegates, organisation (e.g. delegates given enough the culture and the business before a session time to go, and the speaker given enough time to help them make it feel bespoke. Credit was to prepare something interesting). given to L&D teams who strive to achieve this. KEY LEARNINGS Gen Y want to be treated as individuals It is tough for L&D teams – trying to juggle (which contrasts to their often noted ‘pack’ a varied training programme with the mentality in the workplace). In terms of increasing flow of young talent in and out of learning, L&D professionals should always their organisations. As the migration of talent keep the user journey/experience in mind continues, it will be the teams who are able (understandably a challenge when budgets to be flexible, put outcomes over expense are stretched). and see all learning as important, that will win the favour of the Gen Y population in their organisations. “In many organisations there is a disconnect between what learners want and what the company needs them to learn. In a time-poor society, every session counts and both businesses & the individual learners must be satisfied. Trust on both sides is important – trust that Gen Y talent are worth listening to and do know what’s useful for them to learn, and trust that the L&D programme is being designed with them in mind. In more cases than not, it is clear communication around training that is key to programme success.” 5
  • 7. 2. HOW { Just because we are Gen Y doesn’t mean everything has to be done on a computer. What if all learning was done via technology? A strong and unanimous view was that if all learning was computer based they’d “hate it”. It would be too impersonal and “wouldn’t allow you to actually absorb and engage in a deeper understanding”. One participant told us a story about a recent They weren’t keen on the idea of taking e-learning experience: “I went through the work/learning home. We asked them if they questions but didn’t learn anything” he said. would consider using social media, such as He was more concerned about passing the Facebook, as a pre/post session platform for quiz at the end than actually learning and so discussions, and there was a unanimous “No” found ways to ‘cheat’ the system - learning to when it came to using Facebook. pass rather than learning to develop. Technology is important but it needs to be used effectively. For example, YouTube clips as stimulus, websites as a visual aid or using iPads for interactive voting were seen as good ideas. An online library of resources was seen as a good use of technology or using a post-session app (e.g. ‘10 things to remember when you are doing a PDR’). They were, however, happy to use professional sites, such as LinkedIn, for A blended approach was by far the most discussions and forums on work-related desired, such as using actors in role plays, topics. Only one delegate had been to a group discussion, coaching, interesting and session that involved Twitter and everyone relevant tasks and on the job learning, all agreed that they would be interested in using supported and enhanced by online forums this medium more (both during and leading & technology. up to/after sessions). { Facebook is for me outside of work – I don’t want to mix the two. 6
  • 8. The use of hypothetical learning scenarios Flexibility is key to Gen Y. If something is was an area for debate. A couple of people compulsory they needed to understand why liked the opportunity to practice before being – the WIIFM (‘what’s in it for me’) factor. let go on ‘real’ projects, whereas the majority They would like to have choice in selecting felt that university was their chance to modules according to their specific needs. practice and they were frustrated by not being allowed to work on ‘real’ projects now that An important theme that arose throughout the they were in work. They strongly felt that they discussion was around the “communication wanted training that is grown up, engaging of learning”; a real need/desire to be and useful - not patronising or too gimmicky. informed about what’s on offer and what the sessions are about. KEY LEARNINGS A clear message to anyone planning training Just because this generation are very tech programmes for young talent – savvy, it doesn’t mean that they want to lose don’t automatically think that digital is the the human interaction that they value answer. The most well received programmes so highly. Gen Y want to be treated like are those that blend in the new technologies grown-ups. Where possible, allow them to get with the more traditional training stuck into real world projects and learn from techniques used in colleagues, rather than incubating them on face-to-face sessions. hypothetical projects that makes them feel NEW TECH like “we’re still at Uni”. AL ITION TRAD TECH “We know the value people put on face-time with colleagues; giving them the opportunity to share views and knowledge. Using technology to help with this as a means to an end rather than the end itself is key. Avoiding falling into the trap of doing everything online with the latest gadgetry is important; think about the role of support materials and talk to people about what they might want to use. How about a ‘top ten tips app’ for an iPhone or access to an e-library for learning? It will vary by culture and project so think about the relevance and how they might use what you are offering them.” “I am regularly asked by clients to add a ‘Social’ element in to my workshops to engage the young people. I steer them away from Facebook as so many of my Gen Y contacts tell me they want to keep things separate. I’m a big fan of Twitter and think organisations should be using it much more to promote training and to get people talking about good sessions/ interesting content/further reading etc. Clients with their own internal intranet also need to really think about how best to use this platform, both for efficiency & engagement. These are both highly under-utilised forums for communication.” 7
  • 9. 3. WHAT { One size fits all doesn’t work with Gen Y - we can tell if the L&D programme is the same year in, year out. What will an annual training programme look like for Gen Y in the future? What is your favourite type of learning? What would you do if you could control your own L&D budget? Gen Y do share some views but the delegates I don’t just want to were keen to point out that they don’t all think the same and want to be thought of as get better skills for individuals (like any other defined groups). my current job - I With time and pace being such a challenge, want to gain skills they really need to understand the benefit of what they will learn and how it can help them for my future career in their jobs. With this in mind, we didn’t – whether that’s with attempt to analyse desired content at a micro my current employer level but instead we probed into broader areas to seek any common or interesting themes. or not. 100% agreed that the most attractive types One thing that seemed to be absent is clarity of training were those that gave them skills around career vision and direction. It was felt they could see as useful in their long-term having open forums with senior managers careers, as opposed to skills that just made would help with this (giving insights into their them better at their current job. career, etc). Mentoring and coaching from direct line managers is important too. Would you like to receive rewards/qualifications in return for your training? When talking about qualifications, they agreed that they wanted to receive recognition for the training they attended, but internal qualifications were thought of as ‘gimmicky’ – they’d rather have an industry recognised or external qualification. 8
  • 10. If you were given £5,000 to spend on your own development, what would you spend it on? 15% 10% Something I wouldn’t If global company, would go abroad normally do, even if it & learn from counterparts there means no promotion 5% 30% Job Secondment 20% Something that would help in the future - Multi-skill courses, not just with e.g. data systems & today’s job, e.g. presentations skills further studies Things you don’t get taught and get 20% thrown into, e.g. how to be a manager All delegates said in the first instance they would spend the money on something that would be useful throughout life (e.g. a Masters degree). They all liked the idea of having more control over how training budgets were spent on their behalf. Responses included, using the money to travel to other offices within the company to see how they do things, completing an MA, and having more ‘off-site’ sessions in ‘cool’ locations. There was a discussion around the challenges One theme they all agreed on was that faced by L&D teams regarding people signing there had been a significant decline recently up for sessions and then not attending. in the time/effort spent on team building and Two comments were noted: maintaining effective working teams. They’d like to see more emphasis placed on 1. Managers should be told in advance team building, more reward/recognition for which courses their team are attending so high performing teams and on-going training that they can plan their time accordingly programmes designed to keep teams working well together. 2. If someone cancels, they should have to find someone to take their place and it should Collaborative learning experiences were be noted in a record somewhere seen as essential – working with people from different parts of the business on real projects where there is a clear benefit. All delegates were interested in the idea of internal job-swapping/apprenticeships with senior managers and secondments. 9
  • 11. KEY LEARNINGS When deciding what does and doesn’t get The most interesting trend was a desire for included in annual training programmes, ‘life learning’ (transferable skills) rather L&D professionals face a huge challenge to than just ‘job learning’. Engagement levels please everyone involved. The Gen Y delegates on programmes giving a skill for life were were really keen to be more involved in the much higher than on those that are only planning of training programmes, giving them beneficial in the short-term. The cost of an opportunity to ensure that what they are training gave rise to some very interesting learning is relevant and useful to their role discussions – with very few delegates having (and beyond). any idea at all the financial commitment that their organisations are making to their development through training. “Training Needs Analysis can be limiting. People tend to ask for what they think is on offer (usual suspects like presentation skills) and often have a blind spot to what could be made available to them, e.g. career coaching, professional qualifications, etc. We recommend a bottom-up and top-down approach in defining real learning needs. Managers need to talk more with individuals, find out where the skills gaps are and what support they need to develop behaviour, skills and attitudes to enable them to be more motivated and become high performers. As Gen Y make up a large group with specific needs to address, how about setting up your own Gen Y consultative panel?” 10
  • 12. LOCAT 4. WHERE I ON LOCAT ION TION LOCA Often when a training notification comes around, I check where it is. If it is in a certain room, I instantly say no, without even looking at what the session is about. The room is just horrible. What if learning was taken out of the traditional environment? When it came to the ‘where training was run’, everyone agreed that training offsite was more inspiring, engaging and motivating than onsite. One delegate stated, “When I’m training offsite, I’m instantly in the zone”. Offsite venues don’t need to be expensive or It helps if the learning environment reflects glamorous – just a light space somewhere what the session is about (e.g. how about different brings a different energy to the presentation training in a TV studio?). session; even just going to the park for a If sessions are run onsite, it was felt that session seemed to get their interest. more effort could be put into using stimuli Onsite sessions are invariably prone to create the right learning environment. to distractions e.g. checking emails at break As someone put it, “we’ve spent too much times, often don’t start on time, and are time in uni lecture theatres so we need the easy for “managers to drag me away from”. work learning environment to be different”. KEY LEARNINGS The learning environment is very often overlooked by organisations – sweating the small things like refreshments, lighting, temperature etc., can make a real impact on the success of a session. The high speed/high pressure nature of today’s office environment make it a real challenge for learners to ‘switch off and zone in’ if sessions are held onsite. Inspirational, relevant training spaces don’t have to cost a lot – why not challenge the learners themselves to think of some low-cost ‘cool’ venues? “Environment is such an important ingredient in making workshops successful. The brain needs stimulation and inspiration – you don’t need to spend a fortune but try and be creative when you plan sessions. Ideally, to get participants’ attention and focus – offsite locations are much more effective than onsite. If there is no budget for this, consider internal options and think about what you can do to create a better learning environment.” 11
  • 13. 5. WHEN { { I want my manager to know when I am due to be away from my desk for training – that way they can manage my workload and plan for me not being around. How do you rate the volume of training within your organisation? What’s your view on the duration of training sessions and when they take place? The general consensus was that one-day, Time of day is important to get right – 100% or two half-days, per quarter felt about agreed that they prefer morning sessions, right and that most of this should be as that’s when they are most awake (!). self-nominated. An important element for Gen Y is to know Half-day blocks were very popular, as they that the company takes training seriously – don’t mean too much time out of the office. and one way to do that is not to move training Time is key so any short cuts or bite-sized (e.g. if something more ‘important’ turns up). learning is essential, though they realise that some topics need longer time dedicated The delegates wanted their learning to them. to be viewed as importantly as their client work/day job – and having dedicated In terms of prep work, the majority seemed ‘learning times’ could be the answer. happy to do some short prep work before a session (e.g. listening to a podcast on the way in to work) providing it was engaging and brief. If the learning was to make the job easier or quicker, they would welcome it. 12
  • 14. { I’d leave an organisation if the training was rubbish. I want to be working for a company that takes training and development seriously. A theme that ran throughout the discussions was that of the relevance “Reed College at that time offered perhaps of training. Delegates knew there were the best calligraphy instruction in the country. core skills that they needed, but also Throughout the campus, every poster, every wanted L&D teams to be able to provide a label on every drawer, was beautifully hand calligraphed. Because I had dropped out [of Reed flexible programme that allowed them to pick after the first six months] and didn’t have to take up other skills throughout the year (“I was put the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy on a new team with a new remit, looked at the class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif training schedule and saw that I’d have to wait and san serif typefaces, about varying the amount over six months for the session I needed”). of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in Allowing talent to enhance skills that a way that science can’t capture, and I found it aren’t seen as currently business critical fascinating. sparked interesting discussions. Interestingly, our pre-group research None of this had even a hope of any practical had uncovered the following story application in my life. But ten years later, when from Steve Jobs: we were designing the first Mac computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography. If I had never dropped in on that single course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts. Of course it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards ten years later.” The Gen Y talent in organisations are looking to the programme designers/L&D team to be able to look at the bigger picture and develop them in multiple areas (not just the obvious) to help unleash their potential. 13
  • 15. KEY LEARNINGS The timeliness of training needs to be L&D teams should be encouraged to look at taken seriously by an organisation (from the new and innovative ways to deliver training, top down). Managers need to know what for example, set a target that at least 25% of training their Gen Y talent are meant to the next annual spend on training will be on attend, when they should be attending it and developing/exploring ‘non-traditional’ skill what objectives there are for the session. sets. Not only will this mean that young talent are encouraged to attend sessions, but that their managers should be able to challenge them to use their new skills back in everyday life. “Short, bite-sized sessions are a great way to keep Gen Y engaged. I do a number of ‘boomerang’ courses, which are two two-hour sessions with three or four weeks in between sessions, allowing delegates to learn something, test it in reality, and then reflect with their learning group at the second session. Any time dedicated to training is great – just make sure that the whole organisation is aligned on the importance of training, so that it’s not just seen to be a ‘nice to have’, but an essential business, and people, development tool. 14
  • 16. BARRIERS TO LEARNING We asked the participants two questions: 1. What would stop you going to a 2. What are the main things that attract training session? you to learning? MAIN BARRIERS AND ATTRACTIONS • Locality/Environment • Good communication of • People attending what’s on offer (i.e. don’t like training • Having ‘training for me’ – with my manager) recognising individuality • Overly long & intense • Having ownership • Overly formal structure • Job relevant training • No relevant learning outcomes • Training for career – training • Lack of authority on topic for life not just current role (inexperienced trainers who • Having influence in a proper lifecycle were unfamiliar with their to influence direction training working environment) takes (pre/train/feedback/ • Compulsory vs personal choice train/feedback) • Course content • Training being valued by the organisation and having • Not contributing to their work ‘permission to go’ • Gimmicky titles • Learning as a shared experience • Uninspiring • Branded learning (e.g. if a programme • Lack of understanding has a logo/folder it shows more regarding WIIFM care than just old handouts stapled together) • Practical learning that can be applied • Inspiration – speakers/trainers • Bite-sized 15
  • 17. SO WHAT CAN YOU DO? Gen Y share some common traits, demands and preferences but they are all individuals. Like any other demographic, the important thing is on-going dialogue and getting an understanding of their specific needs. Whilst we don’t suggest that every desire can be catered for, there are some things you can do to ensure that the Gen Y talent in your organisations feel that they have a voice and that, most importantly, training is valued in your organisation. Create learner profiles Bridge the gap between What can your leadership when people join – what different groups of team do to create a is their natural learning learners e.g. what can culture of learning that profile and what’s your Gen Y learn from allows people to flourish important to individuals? your Gen X talent and & demonstrates the value Add this as part of the visa versa? that your organisation induction process. places on it? Create a coaching & Provide opportunities for Create learning mentoring culture to help people to work together programmes that with career direction. on projects from different empower the individual At a minimum, ensure line areas of the organisation. to create their own managers meet with those They’ll learn from each other development plan (in they manage solely to talk & it’ll break down barriers, consultation with line about training needs. leading to more effective managers). working teams. Keep end user journey Look at everything with a Talk to us! Both of in mind when planning Gen Y eye – are you being our organisations programmes – of course gimmicky? Are you using are passionate about finances, business objectives technology for the sake of it? learning, and about young etc. are important, but always If possible, set up an internal talent – so do get in touch return to the same question – Gen Y panel to sense check if you’d like to explore any what will the learners get out everything (from course name of these findings further. of this training? to branding and content). 16
  • 18. CONTACT US DAVID LIVERSAGE LIZ JONES Founder Founder Blue Phoenix thetrainingstudio E: david@bluephoenixpeople.com E: lizj@thetrainingstudio.net M: 07968 720303 M: 07769 770269 www.bluephoenixpeople.com www.thetrainingstudio.net David is the Founder of Blue Phoenix People, Liz is the founder and lead consultant at a company offering cutting edge people thetrainingstudio, a training and consultancy company development solutions. Our goal is to ‘Breathe Life specialising in the engagement and development of into Work’ which is reflected in our engaging, practical Generation Y in the work place. and down-to-earth approach. We are collaborative and flexible and work with you as a learning partner thetrainingstudio works in many different industries to develop solutions that are right for your business. helping organisations attract, develop and retain We draw on our network of over 20 expert associates their young talent. From training graduates how to to deliver according to your needs, whether it be be professional, to consulting HR teams on their ‘How To Deliver The Winning Pitch’, developing a recruitment strategies, thetrainingstudio works with culture of learning within your organisation, companies to engage talent at all levels and produce or a programme of management essentials. effective cross-generational teams. Whatever the project, we focus on leaving a lasting impact that represents value to the organisation and helps your people and business to thrive. 17
  • 19. FURTHER READING If you are interested in reading more about Gen Y, here are some of the resources that we used as stimulus for The Future of Learning research groups: Generation Y: Inside Out (an Ashridge Business School white paper) Great Expectations (an Ashridge Business School & the Institute of Leadership & Management report) Not Everyone Gets a Trophy (Bruce Tulgan) ) Socialnomics (Eric Qualman The World According to Y (Rebecca Huntley) Born Digital (John Palfrey & Urs Gasser) The ‘New’ Rules of Engagement (Michael McQueen) The Shift: The Future of work is already here (Lynda Gratton) The content of this report remains the property of Blue Phoenix & thetrainingstudio and should not be reproduced in any format without prior consent by a representative from either company. 18