The document discusses the differences between real science and social science by providing examples from ancient Indian texts like the Mahabharata, Ramayana, and Rigveda. It analyzes astronomical references in these texts using scientific principles like the precession of equinoxes to date events like the Mahabharata war to before 4508 BCE. It also examines age-related descriptions of Rama from the Ramayana text to determine his age was more likely 17-18 years old rather than 25 years old when he left for the forest. Finally, it looks at references to the Sarasvati river in these ancient texts and the Rigveda and uses geological evidence to show the river dried up before 13,000

1. Real Science vs Social Science
(Mahabharata, Ramayana & Rigveda as case studies)
Nilesh Nilkanth Oak
Institute of Advanced Sciences, Dartmouth, MA, USA

2. 3 points
1. Let’s understand ‘Real science’ & ‘Social science’
2. Three examples
1. Evidence (Arundhati Vasishtha observation – Mahabharata)
2. Inference (How old were Rama & Sita – Ramayana)
3. Testing (Grand Sarasvati – Rigveda)
3. Comprehend the difference
• educate (ourselves), enlighten (others) & entertain ‘Incorrigibles’

3. Explaining difference between
Real science & Social science
is not a two step process
as much as
lighting a candle
&
eradicating surrounding darkness
are NOT two independent steps

5. theory
inference/prediction objective testing
evidence
logic
of
scientific method
background knowledge5
2
4
1
3
pramana
pratyakshaanumana
agama

6. Real science
1. Sage Patanjal
• प्रत्यक्षानुमानागमा: प्रमाणानन - पातंजल योगसूत्र, समाधिपाद ७
• विपयययो ममथ्याज्ञानमतद्रूपप्रनतष्ठम ् - पातंजल योगसूत्र, समाधिपाद ८
2. Sage Gotama
• प्रत्यक्षानुमानोपमानशब्दा "प्रमाणानन " - गोतम कृ त न्यायदशयन १:१:३
3. Sage (our times) Karl Popper
• Explanation-prediction-testing (in the context of a theory & background knowledge)
4. Sage (our times) Richard Feynman
• Conjecture (guess) – compute consequences – compare with evidence

7. Astronomy observations/references in Mahabharata
Total of 215+
AV observation
(1)
Planetary positions
(23+)
Phases & positions of the moon
(28+)
‘Sharad’ as season
(27+)
Bhishma Nirvana
(23+) Solar & Lunar eclipses
(6+)
Effects due to
‘precession of equinoxes’
Effects due to
‘near earth phenomena’

8. Astronomy observations/references in Valmiki Ramayana
Total of 575+
Sun sets at Pushya
during Hemant(1)
Planetary positions
(9+)
Phases of the moon
(10+)
Seasons
(225+)Sharad & Chaitra
(8+) Eclipses & lunar nodes
(10+)
Effects due to
‘precession of equinoxes’
Effects due to
‘near earth phenomena’
Vasant & Ashwin
(1)
Brahmarashi as
Pole star (2)
Comet near
nakshatra Mula
(1)

9. [ramayana & mahabharata text]
logic
of
scientific discovery
(agama)
precession of equinoxes, proper motions, modern astronomy
ramayana – 500+mahabharata – 200+
pramana
mahabharata yuddha – 5561 BCE
pratyakshaanumana
astronomy calculations/simulations
rama-ravana yuddha – 12209 BCE

11. 6000 BCE 10,000 BCE 14,000 BCE
mahabharata ramayana
12209 BCE5561 BCE
2000 BCE2000 CE
time

12. Astronomy phenomenon
Precession of the Earth’s axis

13. Polaris All the stars of the northern hemisphere appear to
rotate around Polaris, in an anticlockwise direction
This star is walking
ahead of
this star

14. NCP NCP26,000 Years
Year: 2016 CE Year: 11,000 BCE
Precession of the rotational axis of the earth’s axis
Polaris Brahmarashi/Abhijit
Brahmarashi/Abhijit
Polaris

15. Arundhati-Vasishtha (AV) observation
Bhishma parva- Adhyaya 2:31
(Renowned and well respected Arundhati has gone ahead of Vasishtha)
• Only 4 (out of 130+) researchers dare mention it. Two of them
explained it away, one other went on a tangent. The remaining one
attempted testing it and failed
• All researchers claiming ‘astronomy theory’ mention 3 of 4
astronomy observations of Chapter 2 (Bhishma parva) but do not
dare mention ‘AV observation’ which is right in the middle of other 3
observations

16. 2100 CE
Polaris
2100 BCE
Kochab
12000 BCE
Brahmarashi/Abhijit/Vega
16000 BCE
Deneb
2800 BCE
Thuban
Prominent North Pole Stars

17. Vasishtha
Arundhati
Polaris
2100 CE
Vega (Abhijit)
12048 BCE
4508 BCE
11091 BCE
X
X – 5561 BCE
B
A
C
• ACB – Vasishtha ahead of Arundhati
• Points A & B – Vasishtha & Arundhati walking
together, no one ahead & no one behind
• AXB – Arundhati ahead of Vasistha, (Epoch of
Arundhati)

18. Vasishtha
Arundhati
Polaris
2016 CE
C

19. Vasishtha
Arundhati
Polaris
2016 CE
NCP - 4508 BCE
NCP – 11091 BCE
A
B

20. Vasishtha
Arundhati
Polaris
2016 CE
NCP in 5561 BCE
B
A

21. AV observation
Deductive reasoning based on empirical testing
• Mahabharata war happened sometime before 4508 BCE but
after 11091 BCE
• AV observation instantaneously falsifies any claim for the
Mahabharata war that falls after 4508 BCE or before 11091 BCE
• ‘Shabda Pramana’ (words of Mahabharata war) are validated by
‘pratyaksha pramana’ (empirical proof) of modern astronomy
• What’s next?
• A sceptic blurts out, “But this is only one observation! Could this
be a random coincidence?”
• Not at all! Series of poison pills await!

22. 2.
Age of Rama @ the time of leaving for the forest
17 or 25? And why does it matter?
Two sets of conflicting claims from the Valmiki Ramayana text

23. Set -1 Rama was 17/18 years old when he left for the forest
Set-2 Rama was 25 years old when he left for the forest
logic
of
scientific discovery
(agama)
additional descriptions of Valmiki Ramayana
pramana
Rama was 17/18 years old
when he left for the forest
20/21 December 12223 BCE
pratyakshaanumana
logical consistency

24. Set-1 evidence
Ayodhya Kand (GP edition 20:45)
दश सप्त च िर्ायणण ति जातस्य राघि |
अमसतानन प्रकान्क्षन्त्या मया दुह्ख पररक्षयम् ||
(I was waiting, from your birth, for 17 years, for my troubles to be over)
Gorressio’s Text: Ayodhya 17:35 states Rama was about 18 years old.
This means Rama was 17/18 years old when he left Ayodhya, for
Vanavas.

25. Set-2 evidence
Sita tells Ravana, at Panchavati,
Aranya Kand (GP edition 47: 10)
मम भताय महातेजा ियसा पंच विंशकः ||
अष्टा दश हह िर्ायणण मम जन्मनन गण्यते |
(Rama was 25, Sita was 18 when the left for
the forest)
Aranya Kand (GP edition 47:3-4)
उवर्त्िा द्िा दश समाः इक्ष्िाकू णाम् ननिेशने |
भुंजाना मानुर्ान् भोगान् सिय काम समृद्धिनी ||
तत्र त्रयो दशे िर्े राज अमंत्र्यत प्रभुः |
अमभर्ेचनयतुम् रामम् समेतो राज मन्त्न्त्रमभः ||
(Rama & Sita lived in Ayodhya for 12 years and
in the 13th left for the forest)
Repeated, almost verbatim
Sundar Kand (GP edition 31:13-14)
समा द्िादश तत्र अहम् राघिस्य
ननिेशने ||
भुन्जाना मानुर्ान ् भोगान ् सिय काम
समृद्धिनी |
ततः त्रयोदशे िर्े राज्येन इक्ष्िाकु
नन्दनम् ||
अमभर्ेचनयतुम् राजा स उपाध्यायः
प्रचक्रमे |

26. Rama = 25 years
Sita = 18 years
Rama-Sita left
for the forest
12 years
Rama-Sita wedding
Rama = 13 years
Sita = 6 years
Rama = 16 years
Sita = not mentioned
Rama-Sita wedding
Rama-Sita left
for the forest
Rama = 17/18 years
Sita = not mentioned
Set -1: Rama was 17/18 years old when he left for the forest
Set -2: Rama was 25 years old when he left for the forest

27. What does additional evidence of Valmiki Ramayana tells us…
1.
Ayodhya Kand (GP edition 118:34)
पनत सम्योग सुलभम् ियो दृष््िा तु मे वपता |
धचन्ताम ् अभ्यगमद् दीनो वित्त नाशाद् इि अिनः ||
(“Seeing my age to be such, when union with a husband can be easily
had, my father fell a prey to anxiety like an indigent man, feeling
miserable by the loss of all his possessions.”)
• If we assume a minimum age of 14, conservatively speaking, as
suitable for a physical union with a husband, then this evidence
falsifies claim made in Set-2

28. When 4 couples returned to Ayodhya, after wedding..
2.
Bala Kand (GP edition 77:14)
अमभिाद्य अमभिाद्यान ् च सिाय राज सुताः तदा ||
रेममरे मुहदताः सिाय भतृयमभः सहहता रहः |
(Then all the princesses paid respects to all of the respectable ones,
and they luxuriated in sequestered palace-chambers along with their
husbands)
• This means both Sita & Rama were mature enough and definitely not
as young as 6 & 13, respectively.
• This evidence falsifies claim made in Set-2

29. When sage Vishwamitra came to king Dasharatha, asking for Rama’s assistance
3.
King Dasharatha states…
Bala Kand (GP edition 20:2)
ऊन र्ोडश िर्ो मे रामो राजीि लोचनः |
न युद्ि योग्यताम् अस्य पश्यामम सह राक्षसः ||
(Rama is merely 16 years old)
• This conversation took place before the wedding of Rama.
• This evidence falsifies claim made in Set-2

30. BORI edition reads for, Aranya kand reference of, Set-2
4.
Aranya kand (BORI critical edition 45:4-5)
संित्सरं चाध्युवर्ता राघिस्य ननिेशने
भूज्जाना मानुपान्भोगान्सियकामसमृद्धिनी
तत: संित्सरादूध्िं सममन्यत मे पनतं
अमभर्ेचनयन्तु रामं समेतो राजमन्त्न्त्रमभ:
(Rama and Sita enjoyed the married life for about a year. when year was
over, Dasharatha, in consultation with his ministers, decided to coronate
Rama.)
• This evidence corroborates claim of Set-1 and falsifies claim of Set-2

31. River Sarasvati evidence - epics
Mahabharata & Ramayana

32. Shutudri/Sutlej
Yamuna
Sarasvati paleochannel

33. 6000 BCE 10,000 BCE 14,000 BCE
mahabharata ramayana
sarasvati sans
shutudri/yamuna
flowing generously, yet not
visible at places, & flowing
under the sand
sarasvati
the grandest river
does science corroborates this textual evidence of the epics & Rigveda?
1500BCE
Rigveda

34. oldest manalas of Rigveda (6,3,7, 2) describe Grand Sarasvati
youngest manala of Rigveda (10) describes status shifting to Sindhu
logic
of
scientific discovery
(agama)
hydrology, geology, morphodynamics of rivers
pramana
Grand Sarasvati prior to
13,000 BCE?
pratyakshaanumana
Can we test this
conjecture?

35. River Sarasvati evidence - Rigveda
Descriptions of Sarasvati (Old Mandalas vs youngest Mandala)

36. 6000 BCE 10,000 BCE 14,000 BCE
mahabharata ramayana
sarasvati sans
shutudri/yamuna
flowing generously yet not
visible at places & flowing
under the sand
sarasvati
the grandest river
4, 210
1
5, 8, 9
Absolute chronology evidence consistent with relative chronology of Rigveda
1500BCE

39. Clift et al (2012)

40. Clift et al (2012)
Yamuna separating from
river Sarasvati ~ 50,000 BCE
Francfort (2010) & other studies corroborate these findings

41. Singh et al (November 2017)

42. 8 KM wide paleochannel
Paleo-Sarasvati cross section @ Kalibangan

43. Paleo-Sarasvati cross section @ Kalibangan
Grand river stopped flowing before 20,000 BCE

44. Sutlej inflow stopped before 13000 BCE
Grand river stopped before 20,000 BCE

45. Shutudri/Sutlej
Yamuna
Sarasvati paleochannel
Before 13000 BCE
As early as
50,000 BCE

46. 6000 BCE 10,000 BCE 14,000 BCE
Mahabharata Ramayana
Sanskrit language based civilization, inside India, long before 2000 BCE
Rigveda
1500BCE

47. Questions? Objections?
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