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Evo 08 10 11
- 1. 7 . Predavanje 2 . 12 .20 10 Evolucija i ljudski razvoj: djeca, roditelji i obitelji
- 2. Evoluirani standardi fizičkeljepote Povezani sa ženskim reproduktivnim kapacitetom Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder? 2 dostupna pokazatelja reproduktivne vrijednosti partnera Fizički izgled Ponašanje Clelland i Ford (1951) i Malinowski (1929) ukazali na univerzalnost takvih preferencija
- 3. Evoluirani standardi fizičkeljepote “ In civilised life man is largely, but by no means exclusevly, influenced in the choice of his wife by external apperance” Darwin, 1871 Lice Simetrija Prosječnost Seksualni dimorfizam Ten … Tijelo BMI WHR Veličina grudi Duljina nogu …
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- 5. Sljedeći korak - usmjertiti snage u “vozila” roditeljskih gena
- 6. Roditeljska briga Ključnaza preživljavanje potomsta Začudo – mnoge vrste ne prakticiraju takvo ponašanje Razlog - Cijena! Gubitak resursa Gubitak vremena Rizik za preživljavanje U slučajevima kada se pojavljuje – korist nadilazi posljedice Prije pojave evolucijske psihologije nije postojalo radova/teorija na temu ljudske roditeljske motivacije (Daly i Wilson, 1995)
- 7. Roditeljska briga “The needs that lead many of us to feel unconditional love for our children also seem to be ramarkably persistent, for reasons that are not at present alltogether clear” Sternberg, 1986 EP: It is clear! Dizajnirana kako bi osigurala reproduktivni uspijeh i preživljavanje nosioca naših gena. Ipak... Neka pitanja daju začuđujuće odgovore Bezuvjetna ljubav?
- 8. Tko se brineviše?
- 9. Zbog čega semajke brinu više? “ The greatest debth is to my wife, who looked after our children while I wrote about parental care” Clutton-Brock, 1991, The Evolution of Parental Care Kroskultralna potvrda na raznim bihevioralnim mjerama (vrijeme provedeno u blizini; dodirujući; učeći, etc) – majke brinu više o potomstvu. Zbog čega? Hipoteza roditeljske nesigurnosti Hipoteza prilika za parenje
- 10. Hipoteza roditeljske nesigurnostiIz muške perspektive uvijek postoji vjerojatnost da je netko drugi oplodio jajašce – nesigunost najveća kod vrsta sa unutaruterinom oplodnjom! Resursi prepušteni suparnikovom potomstvu izravan gubtak za vlastito potomstvo Što je vjerojatnost očinstva manja – manja isplativost ulaganja
- 11. Hipoteza prilika zaparenje Izvire iz spolnih razlika u trošku propušatanja prilika za parenje kao posljedice ulaganja u potomstvo Reproduktivni uspjeh mužjaka ograničen brojem ženki koje može oploditi - muškarci postiži izravne koristi od parenja sa velikim brojem partnerica. Hipoteza – kada su troškovi propuštanja reproduktivnih prilika niski, evolucija će preferirati roditeljska ulaganja Kako se to odražava na ljude... Kada je višak muškaraca u “mating pool”-u Kada je višak žena u “mating pool”-u Koji još faktori?
- 12. Primary caretaker hipotezaŽene će razviti adaptacije koje će pomoći djeci da prežive Žene rađe gledaju lica i siluete beba (Masterpieri i Pelka, 2002) Interes za djecu se javlja u kasnom djetinjstvu i adolescenciji – funkcija učenja Žene bolje razaznaju emocije djece (Babschuk i sur, 1985), posebice negativne (fitness threat hypothesis) “ Tend and befriend”
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- 14. A očevi? Ljudekarakterizira najveća razina roditeljskog ulaganja U svim kulturama muškarci uspostavljaju duboke veze sa svojim potomstvom, pristkrbljuju hranu, štite, uče vještine, facilitiraju socijalna poznanstva i osiguravaju statusnu poziciju
- 15. Kontekst roditeljskog ulaganja?Genetska povezanost Mogućnost pretvaranja ulaganja u fitness Alternativno iskorištavanje korištenih resursa
- 16. Genetska povezanost “ Substitute parents will generally tend to care less profoundly for children than natural parents....Parental investment is a precious resource, and selection must favour those parental psyches that do not squander it on nonrelatives” Daly i Wilson, 1988 53% očuha i 23% maćeha navelo roditeljske osjećaje (Duberman, 1975) Poočimi ostvaruju manje kontakta i agresivniju su od pravih očeva u ponašanju sa djecom (Trinidad)(Flinn, 1988b) NE znači da nisu sposobni za adekvantu brigu – ukazuje da je manje vjerojatno da će ju ostvariti
- 17. Genetska povezanost Tomphson (1955). Analiza folklorne literature Maćehe; zle, ubijaju Poočimi; Požudni, okrutni U raznim kulturama uvjek prikazivani kao zločnici (Daly i Wilson, 1988) Iracionalni strahovi? Kako moguće procjeniti genetsku povezanost? Znanje o seksualnoj vjernosti Percepcija djetetove sličnosti
- 18. Na koga sličinovorođenče? Koje sve adaptacije? Daly i Wilson (1982). Snimali rođenja i komentare nakon rođenja 80% komentara vezanih uz izgled povezivao izgled sa ocem, 20% sa s majkom “ it looks like you” x 3 “ feels like you” “ just like daddy ” “ he looks like you, honestly he does” Mexico (Regalski i Gaulin, 1993),Kanada (Daly i Wilson, 1982) Djeca ne sliče više na očeve ! (eg. Christinefeld i Hill, 1995)
- 19. Na koga sličinovorođenče? Očevi procijenjuju veću spremnost ulaganja za djecu koja im sliče (Platek i sur., 2000). Ulaganje raste sa procjenom sličnosti (Apicella i Marlow, 2004), ali i vjernosti žene. Muškarci koji procjenjuju djecu kao manje sličnu sebi ukazuju veću vjerojatnost fizičkog zlostavljanja partnerice (Burch i Gallup, 2000). Anderson, Kaplan i Lancaster, 1999 Muškarci će ulagati više u genetske potomke Muškarci koji su manje sigurni u rodteljstvo će ulagati manje Muškarci će ulagati manje u djecu iz prošlih veza (mating effort)
- 20. Zlostavljanje i ostalirizici života sa genetski nepovezanim skrbnicima “ Step-parenthood per se remains the single most powerful risk factor for child abuse that has yet been indentified” Daly i Wilson, 1988
- 21. Ubojstvo djece kaofunkcija genetske povezanosti
- 22. Mogućnost pretvaranja ulaganjau fitness Isplativost ulaganja – velike razlike u fizičkoj i psihologškoj dobrobiti djece (Geary, 2000). Ache (Paragvaj) – mortalnost 45% ako otac odsutan do 15 godine Viši mortalitet djece rastavljenih roditelja Ulaganje oca do četiri puta volji prediktor akademskog uspjeha od ulaganja majke U koga ulagati?
- 23. Mogućnost pretvaranja ulaganjau fitness Zanemarivanje i zlostavljanje djece sa kongenitalim poremećajima Visoka institucionalizacija (12% nikad posjećeno, 22% jednom na godinu) Zlostavljani u 7.5 – 60 % slučajeva (naprama 1,5) Majčinska briga s obzirom na zdravlje djeteta Proučavanje blizanaca različitog zdravstvenog statusa (Mann, 1992) Pozivino majčinsko ponašanje – ljubljenje, držanje, igranje, gledanje Healthy baby hypothesis Do osmog mjeseca sve majke usmjerile pozitivno majčinsko ponašanje na zdravije djete
- 24. Mogućnost pretvaranja ulaganjau fitness Dob djeteta Reproduktivna vrijednost raste od rođenja do puberteta Porast se javlja zbog relativno visokog postotka smrti djece, posebice novorođenčadi Hipoteza (Daly i Wilson, 1988). – što je djete mlađe, veća je vjerojatnost infanticida Ubojstvo nije adaptacija per se Odražava roditeljske osjećaje – preferencije potamaka koji obećavaju reproduktivni uspjeh
- 25. Mogućnost pretvaranja ulaganjau fitness Dob djeteta
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- 27. Trivers-Willard hipoteza I sinovi i kćeri u prosjeku imaju jednak reproduktivni uspjeh, ako je raspored spolova u populaciji jednak “ Stanje” jedinke ukazuje preciznije koliko će to biti ostvarivo (veličina, dominantnost, opterećenost parazitima) Hipoteza Kada su roditelji u dobrom stanju – produciraju više sinova Kanazawa Beautiful parents have more daughters Big and tall parents have more sons
- 28. Trivers-Willard hipoteza Isti mehanizam se očekivano prenosi i na ponašanje / ulaganje Ženska djeca više ubijana u višim klasama (Dickemann, 1979) Kipingi (Keniya) više ulažu u edukaciju ženske djece (Borgehof i sur, 1998), obrnuto za više klase Bogatije obitelji ulažu više u edukaciju muške djece, obrnuto za obitelji nižeg statusa (Rosemary i Hopcroft, 2005) Neke studije nisu našle potvrdu? Zbog čega?
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- 30. Alternativno iskorištavanje resursakorištenih za ulaganje u potomstvo Ženska dob i i infanticid Reproduktivna vrjednost opada sa godinama Pretpostavka veće vjerojatnosti infanticida kod mlađih žena Potvrđeno na kanadskoj i Ayoreo Indijanskoj populacji Koji relevantni činioci? Na što se troše resursi?
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- 33. Maestripieri, D. (2010).Emotions, stress, and maternal motivation in primates. American Journal of Primatology DOI: 10.1002/ajp.20882
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- 35. Roditeljsko ulaganje vs.Ulaganja u reprodukciju Muškarci imaju više koristi od osiguravanja dodatnih partnera Muškarci nisu 100% sigurni u roditeljsvo Žene dulje u fizičkom kontaktu sa djetetom Aka Pigmeji – iznimno roditeljsko ulaganje, uz razlike u statusu Kroskulturalne potvrde na ruralnim i netehnološkim društvima – izražena podjela posla 90% samohranih roditelja su žene Drugačije fiziološke reakcije na slike djece (širenje zjenica) Žene evoluirale mehanizme odlučivanja, interesa, i emocionalne reakcije za potrene za veća ulaganja u roditeljstvo
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- 37. Teorija konflikta roditeljai potomaka Genetski konflikt interesa Djeca će željeti već dio resursa nego što je to korisno roditeljima Roditelji i djeca će dolaziti u konflikete oko vremena napuštanja obitelji Roditelji će poticati braću i sestre na suradnju Roditelji će nagrađivati suradnju potomaka, a kažnjavati konflikte Proučavanje suicidalog ponašanja maloljetnika (Andrews, 2006)
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- 39. Teorija konflikta roditeljai potomaka Edipov kompleks? Neseksualni i seksualni konflikti oca i sina?
- 40. “ čudno” ženskoponašanje Video: My Fake Baby http:// youtube.com/watch?v =qij9J7M3k2c
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Editor's Notes
- #7 Mexican free tailed bats (Clutton – Brock, 1991) 83% find their pup 16% of their body weight in milk Nestigng birds - egg shell removal Less attracitve to predators
- #8 Unconditinal love?
- #11 Ženke 100% sigurne u genetski doprinos potomstvu
- #12 Primjer nekih ribljih vrsta Atraktivnost partnera Population density
- #13 Primjer nekih ribljih vrsta Atraktivnost partnera Population density
- #15 Primjer nekih ribljih vrsta Atraktivnost partnera Population density
- #16 Primjer nekih ribljih vrsta Atraktivnost partnera Population density
- #17 Primjer nekih ribljih vrsta Atraktivnost partnera Population density
- #18 Primjer nekih ribljih vrsta Atraktivnost partnera Population density
- #19 Morphing faces study (platek i sur, 2000) Indiciraju više ulaganja za djecu koja im sliče fMRI – veća kortikalna aktivnost kod promatranja djece koja im sliče nego u žena (ljevi frontalni korteks – inhibicija negativnih odgovora)
- #20 Anderson i sur Abq Novci za studij 5.5.% vjerojatnosti za dobivenje novaca 65% više troškova plaćeno Cape town – više vremena i novaca Hadza Ulaganje kao mating effort
- #21 Inclusive fitness 40% viša vjerojatnost zlostavljanja 841 householda Socioekonoski status i obrazovanje kontrolirano
- #22 40 do 100 puta veća vjerojatnost ubojstva nego kod prisutnosti oba roditelja Razne kulture navode preljub ili različiti izgled kao dovoljan razlog za ubojstvo djeteta Tikopia, Yanomamo – ubojstvo djeteta uvjet za brak Edukacija Zlostavljani i ubijani više kad žive sa poočimom ili pomajkom
- #23 Nije samo zdravlje već i vjerojatnost da će se moć reproducirati Nije svjesno
- #24 Nije samo zdravlje već i vjerojatnost da će se moć reproducirati Nije svjesno
- #25 Nije samo zdravlje već i vjerojatnost da će se moć reproducirati Nije svjesno
- #26 Nije samo zdravlje već i vjerojatnost da će se moć reproducirati Nije svjesno
- #28 Ulaganje u Sinove vs. Kćeri Beeing in good condition affects males more than females
- #29 Ulaganje u Sinove vs. Kćeri Beeing in good condition affects males more than females
- #31 Resursi su ograničeni Resursi uleženi u jednu aktivnost, oduzimaju energiju za druge ativnosti Brak
- #39 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/14/health/14preg.html?_r=1&oref= slogin&pagewanted =print March 14, 2006Silent Struggle: A New Theory of Pregnancy By CARL ZIMMER Correction Appended Pregnancy can be the most wonderful experience life has to offer. But it can also be dangerous. Around the world, an estimated 529,000 women a year die during pregnancy or childbirth. Ten million suffer injuries, infection or disability.To David Haig, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard , these grim statistics raise a profound puzzle about pregnancy."Pregnancy is absolutely central to reproduction, and yet pregnancy doesn't seem to work very well," he said. "If you think about the heart or the kidney, they're wonderful bits of engineering that work day in and day out for years and years. But pregnancy is associated with all sorts of medical problems. What's the difference?"The difference is that the heart and the kidney belong to a single individual, while pregnancy is a two-person operation. And this operation does not run in perfect harmony. Instead, Dr. Haig argues, a mother and her unborn child engage in an unconscious struggle over the nutrients she will provide it.Dr. Haig's theory has been gaining support in recent years, as scientists examine the various ways pregnancy can go wrong. His theory also explains a baffling feature of developing fetuses: the copies of some genes are shut down, depending on which parent they come from. Dr. Haig has also argued that the same evolutionary conflicts can linger on after birth and even influence the adult brain. New research has offered support to this idea as well. By understanding these hidden struggles, scientists may be able to better understand psychological disorders like depression and autism .As a biologist fresh out of graduate school in the late 1980's, Dr. Haig decided to look at pregnancy from an evolutionary point of view. As his guide, he used the work of Robert Trivers, an evolutionary biologist at Rutgers University. In the 1970's, Dr. Trivers argued that families create an evolutionary conflict. Natural selection should favor parents who can successfully raise the most offspring. For that strategy to work, they can't put too many resources into any one child. But the child's chances for reproductive success will increase as its care and feeding increase. Theoretically, Dr. Trivers argued, natural selection could favor genes that help children get more resources from their parents than the parents want to give.As Dr. Haig considered the case of pregnancy, it seemed like the perfect arena for this sort of conflict. A child develops in intimate contact with its mother. Its development in the womb is crucial to its long-term health. So it was plausible that nature would favor genes that allowed fetuses to draw more resources from their mothers. A fetus does not sit passively in its mother's womb and wait to be fed. Its placenta aggressively sprouts blood vessels that invade its mother's tissues to extract nutrients. Meanwhile, Dr. Haig argued, natural selection should favor mothers who could restrain these incursions, and manage to have several surviving offspring carrying on their genes. He envisioned pregnancy as a tug of war. Each side pulls hard, and yet a flag tied to the middle of the rope barely moves."We tend to think of genes as parts of a machine working together," Dr. Haig said. "But in the realm of genetic conflict, the cooperation breaks down."In a 1993 paper, Dr. Haig first predicted that many complications of pregnancy would turn out to be produced by this conflict. One of the most common complications is pre-eclampsia, in which women experience dangerously high blood pressure late in pregnancy. For decades scientists have puzzled over pre-eclampsia, which occurs in about 6 percent of pregnancies.Dr. Haig proposed that pre-eclampsia was just an extreme form of a strategy used by all fetuses. The fetuses somehow raised the blood pressure of their mothers so as to drive more blood into the relatively low-pressure placenta. Dr. Haig suggested that pre-eclampsia would be associated with some substance that fetuses injected into their mothers' bloodstreams. Pre-eclampsia happened when fetuses injected too much of the stuff, perhaps if they were having trouble getting enough nourishment.In the past few years, Ananth Karumanchi of Harvard Medical School and his colleagues have gathered evidence that suggests Dr. Haig was right. They have found that women with pre-eclampsia had unusually high levels of a protein called soluble fms-like tyrosine kinase 1, or sFlt1 for short.Other labs have replicated their results. Dr. Karumanchi's group has done additional work that indicates that this protein interferes with the mother's ability to repair minor damage to her blood vessels. As that damage builds up, so does her blood pressure. And as Dr. Haig predicted, the protein is produced by the fetus, not the mother."When I first came across David Haig's hypothesis, it was absolutely cool," said Dr. Karumanchi. "And it made me feel like I might be on the right track."Dr. Haig is now collaborating with Dr. Karumanchi and his Harvard Medical School colleagues to understand more about how exactly sFlt1 may cause pre-eclampsia. They describe their research in the latest issue of Current Topics in Developmental Biology.Dr. Haig also made some predictions about the sorts of maternal defenses that have evolved. One of the most intriguing strategies he proposed was for mothers to shut down some of the genes in their own children.This strategy takes advantage of the fact that most of the genes we carry come in pairs. We inherit one copy from our mother and one from our father. In most cases, these pairs of genes behave identically. But in the past 15 years, scientists have identified more than 70 pairs of genes in which the copy from one parent never makes a protein. In some cases, a parent's gene is silenced only in one organ. Scientists do not fully understand this process, known as genomic imprinting. They suspect that it is made possible by chemical handles called methyl groups that are attached to units of DNA . Some handles may turn off genes in sperm and egg cells. The genes then remain shut off after a sperm fertilizes an egg.Only a few of these genes have been carefully studied to understand how they work. But the evidence so far is consistent with Dr. Haig's theory. One of the most striking examples is a gene called insulin growth factor 2 (Igf2). Produced only in fetal cells, it stimulates rapid growth. Normally, only the father's copy is active. To understand the gene's function, scientists disabled the father's copy in the placenta of fetal mice. The mice were born weighing 40 percent below average. Perhaps the mother's copy of Igf2 is silent because turning it off helps slow the growth of a fetus. On the other hand, mice carry another gene called Igf2r that interferes with the growth-spurring activity of Igf2. This may be another maternal defense gene. In the case of Igf2r, it is the father's gene that is silent, perhaps as a way for fathers to speed up the growth of their offspring. If the mother's copy of this second gene is disabled, mouse pups are born 125 percent heavier than average.A number of other imprinted genes speed and slow the growth of fetuses in a similar fashion, providing more support for Dr. Haig's theory. And in recent years, some medical disorders in humans have been tied to these imprinted genes. Beckwith-Wiedemann syndrome, for example, causes children to grow oversize organs that are prone to developing tumors . Some cases of the disorder have been tied to a mutation that replaces a mother's silent copy of Igf2 with an extra copy of the father's. "Both of the copies come from the father, and you get double the amount of Igf2, " said Dr. Haig. The extra Igf2 appeared to cause a fetus to grow too quickly, leading to the syndrome.Dr. Haig's work is now widely hailed for making sense of imprinted genes. "Molecular biologists had it worked out in exquisite detail, but they had no idea why it existed," said Kyle Summers, a biologist at East Carolina State University. "Haig just comes in and says, 'I know why this is happening,' and explained it."Dr. Haig has recently been exploring his theory's implications for life after birth. "I think it can influence all sorts of social behaviors," he said.Scientists have found that some genes are imprinted in the brain after birth, and in some cases even in adulthood. "Imprinted genes and behavior are the new frontier," said Dr. Lawrence Wilkinson of the University of Cambridge. In a paper to be published in The Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London, Dr. Wilkinson and his colleagues argue that the evidence on imprinted brain genes — preliminary as it is — fits with Dr. Haig's theory. They call it "the most robust evolutionary hypothesis for genomic imprinting." One major source of conflict after birth is how much a mother will feed any individual offspring. A baby mammal is more likely to thrive if it can get more milk from its mother. But nursing demands a lot of energy from mothers that could be used for other things, like bearing and nursing more offspring. It turns out that a number of imprinted genes are active in the brain, where they might influence how babies behaved toward their mothers. One strong candidate for that role in mice is a gene known as GnasXI. Normally the mother's copy of the gene is silent. If the father's copy is not working, mouse pups are weak sucklers. They draw so little milk that by 9 days old, they are a quarter of the weight of normal mice. Switching off the father's copy of GnasXI may be putting a brake on the aggressive nursing of their pups. Some genes continue to be imprinted in the brain even in healthy adults. Dr. Haig has proposed that the evolution of these genes has been shaped by the groups in which mammals live. In many mammal species, females tend to stay in the groups where they are born and males leave. As a result, females tend to share more genes with other members of their group than males. A conflict may emerge between maternal and paternal genes over how the members of the group should act. Maternal genes may favor behavior that benefits the group. Paternal genes may favor behavior that benefits the individual."You have to think about resources in a different way," Dr. Wilkinson said. "Instead of thinking about foodstuffs, you have to think about social resources. Your mom and dad want different things from your behavior."Dr. Wilkinson and his colleagues are beginning to identify genes that may play this role. One, known as Nesp55, is active in mouse brains. The father's copy of the gene is silent. Dr. Wilkinson and his colleagues found that disabling the mother's Nesp55 gene makes mice less likely to explore a new environment. Normally, the mother's copy of Nesp55 may encourage the mice to take more risks on behalf of the group, whether that risk involves looking for food or defending the group. "It's a possibility, but it needs to be proved," said Dr. Wilkinson.Dr. Wilkinson suspects that conflict between imprinted brain genes may add to the risk for mental disorders, from autism to depression. Because one copy of each of these genes is silenced, they may be more vulnerable. "If you ask me, do I think that imprinted genes are likely in the next 10 years to crop up as mechanisms in mental disorders, I'd say yes," he said.Dr. Haig has enjoyed watching his theory mature and inspire other scientists. But he has also had to cope with a fair amount of hate mail. It comes from across the political spectrum, from abortion opponents to feminists who accuse him of trying to force patriarchy into biology. "People seem to think, 'He must have a political agenda,' " Dr. Haig said. "But I'm not talking at all about conscious behaviors. I'm just interested in these mechanisms and why they evolved."Correction: March 16, 2006 An article in Science Times on Tuesday about recent research on pregnancy, suggesting that its dangers can be explained by a tug of war between mother and fetus over nutrients, misstated the name of the university of Kyle Summers, a biologist who praised the work. It is East Carolina University, not East Carolina State. Print This Image
- #41 Explores the lives of women who purchase very expensive, life-like baby dolls. Known as "reborns" some of the dolls have beating hearts, others have tiny veins and even milk spots. Loved like real babies, they're taken for walks, cuddled and even have their nappies changed.
- #42 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29163803/ By Jacqueline Stenson MSNBC contributor msnbc.com contributor updated 5:39 a.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 13, 2009 Jacqueline Stenson MSNBC contributor While it was once common for American families to have six, seven or even more children, today the sight of such a large brood makes many people stop and ask a seemingly simple question: Why? Plenty have been asking that ever since the news broke that California mom Nadya Suleman gave birth to octuplets after already having six other young children. And celebrities such as Angelina Jolie and Mia Farrow who have large families have long been an endless source of public curiosity and speculation. There’s not always a simple reason why people create uncommonly large families. Some parents cite religious or cultural reasons for having many children. Some say they just love kids and feel they can provide a big family with a stable, loving home. Some want to help a child in need so they add to their biological families through adoption. But sometimes the desire to keep having children can be rooted in complex psychological issues dating as far back as one’s childhood. In certain cases, experts say, it can become a compulsion, an obsession or even a “baby addiction.” While the current book of psychiatric diagnoses, the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,” has no entry on baby addiction, mental-health professionals say they see patients, mostly women, who desperately want to keep having newborns, even when they already have several children and aren’t managing their family situation well. That, they say, is a big red flag, no matter what term is used to describe it. “ It can be an addiction,” says Gayle Peterson, a family therapist in the San Francisco area and author of “Making Healthy Families.” Overwhelmed, but wanting more Peterson has seen several women in her practice who’ve been overwhelmed with four or five children, including those with special needs. Some of the women were suffering with depression or panic attacks and yet when their youngest child became a toddler, they wanted another baby. These women can be driven to have more children in an effort to make up for some sort of void or loss, usually from their own unhappy childhood, explains Peterson. Video Octuplet costs outrage Calif. taxpayers Feb. 12: The Los Angeles Times' Tim Rutten tells MSNBC that anger is growing over the medical bills taxpayers will be picking up for octuplet mom Nadya Suleman. MSNBC“If you’re just having babies to complete something in yourself that never got completed, you really are talking about an addiction,” she says. Without personally treating Suleman, mental-health experts acknowledge they can’t say for sure what her motivations are but that there are similarities to these other women, as well as additional troubling signs. Suleman, who has a history of depression, told TODAY's Ann Curry that she wanted a ‘huge family’ because she had a “dysfunctional” childhood as an only child and longed for personal connections. Suleman, who is single and has no job, has one autistic child and two others who she says have some disability, raising concerns about how she’ll manage emotionally and financially with the additional octuplets who are likely to face some disabilities as well. She has already set up a Web site that accepts donations. And while some have speculated that Suleman is an attention-seeker who is modeling her looks and her family after Angelina Jolie, she has denied a Jolie fixation or plastic surgery to look like her. Babies — all new and cherubic and completely enthralled with their mothers — can bring profound joy. But when they enter toddlerhood and start developing independence and a mind of their own, some mothers miss the intenseness of the newborn period and want another baby even though that’s not in the best interests of the family, Peterson says. “ Therapy helps women come to grips with the fact that this only complicates their lives, does not heal them,” she says. “ There are many rewards of having children,” says Dr. Sudeepta Varma, a psychiatrist at New York Medical Center and a spokesperson for the American Psychiatric Association. But “as health professionals, we become concerned with respect to behavior that provides initial pleasure but eventually is spinning out of control.” No ‘ideal’ family size To protect the health and well-being of mothers and babies, fertility doctors have set guidelines for how many embryos should be implanted during one round of in vitro fertilization — guidelines that were ignored in Suleman’s case. Slideshow Whoa, baby Find images of famous multiples, including the Dilley sextuplets, the McCaughey septuplets and the Chukwu octuplets. more photosBut while the average American family has about two children, there’s no single “ideal” family size for everyone, says Varma. Each couple should think through how many children they want and can manage, afford and provide for emotionally. Rob Shearer, a father of 11 children ranging in age from 10 to 28, says he and his wife didn’t plan on having a large family. But he says things were going well, so they kept expanding. “ We never sat down and said, ‘Let’s have 11 children!’ We had two and enjoyed them, so we had a third,” says Shearer, of Lebanon, Tenn. “We enjoyed three, so we had a fourth.” Two girls were adopted from China. He says that, like any parent, he feels inadequate and overwhelmed at times, but adds that it's all worth it. Experts are quick to point out that there are plenty of big, happy families that are not the result of baby addiction. They also emphasize that children in small families can suffer emotional scars, too, from absentee or otherwise poor parents. Kids need more than money But having large numbers of children certainly can strain a family’s finances and emotional reserves, Varma says, and that can negatively impact the children. “Are neglect, abuse, emotional disturbances in children more likely in a situation like this? It’s definitely possible.” Kids in large families — particularly those involving a lot of youngsters close in age — who don’t get enough attention because their mother is depressed or overwhelmed, for instance, may become anxious or depressed themselves, says family psychologist Nadine Kaslow, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Emory University in Atlanta. On the other hand, they may act out to get attention. “ It’s really important when you have children to have resources,” Kaslow says. “Not just financial resources but emotional resources.” Click for related content Octuplets ' mom: ‘I'm not being selfish’ Octuplets backlash: From celebration to outrage Taxpayers may be covering octuplet mom's bills Peterson says some of the most “damaged” children are those in very poor homes and those in very rich ones. Young children, especially, don’t thrive when they are raised by an army of nannies — even fabulous nannies — at the expense of bonding time with their parents, she says. Nannies come and go, which can be devastating to children who spend the majority of their time with these caregivers. “ You can’t have a baby and be a ‘weekend parent’ and expect that your baby won’t have anxiety as they grow,” Peterson says. “It’s not enough.” As a guiding rule, families need to create “connection over disconnection,” she says. For couples who endlessly feel that their family isn’t complete, even when it’s getting awfully crowded at home, Kaslow notes that there are other ways to get a “baby fix” — such as baby-sitting or working in a daycare center or volunteering in a church nursery. “ I do think there are people who always want to have a baby around,” she says. “But it’s one thing to love babies and another to keep having babies.”