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Making sense of
sustainable development
       Clive Bates
“Central organising principle”

   Sustainable development will be the central
   organising principle of the Welsh Assembly
   Government

   One Wales, One Planet




One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
What is it…?

Development that meets the needs of the
present without compromising the ability of
future generations to meet their own needs
Brundtland definition
Everyone‟s at it...

For us, sustainability means addressing key
business-related social, environmental and
economic impacts in a way that aims to bring
value to all our stakeholders, including
shareholders.

Paul Adams
CEO, British American Tobacco
We do have a problem…

I know that this term is obligatory, but I find it
also absurd, or rather so vague that it says
nothing

Luc Ferry, French philosopher
Three conditions for a central
         organising principle…
1. A clear definition and overall aim that is
   supported by the whole government

2. It has to inform hard but different choices
   about money, policy focus and delivery

3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy
   and support
Three conditions for a central
         organising principle…
1. A clear definition and overall aim that is
   supported by the whole government

2. It has to inform hard but different choices
   about money, policy focus and delivery

3. It must be possible to secure a sufficient
   mandate
Single over-arching measure

1. We should measure progress in a way that can guide
   policy. This requires a single over-arching measure
   of how we are doing. [...]

2. The right single measure of progress must be the
   one that is self-evidently good. The only such
   measure is




Richard Layard: "Why subjective well-being should be the measure of progress", given at the OECD World Forum on “Statistics, Knowledge and
Policy Charting Progress, Building Visions, Improving Life", Busan, Korea - 27-30 October 2009 chard Layard,
Single over-arching measure

1. We should measure progress in a way that can guide
   policy. This requires a single over-arching measure
   of how we are doing. [...]

2. The right single measure of progress must be the
   one that is self-evidently good. The only such
   measure is the happiness of the population - and
   the equivalent absence of misery.


Richard Layard: "Why subjective well-being should be the measure of progress", given at the OECD World Forum on “Statistics, Knowledge and
Policy Charting Progress, Building Visions, Improving Life", Busan, Korea - 27-30 October 2009 chard Layard,
What it means

In Wales, sustainable development means
enhancing the economic, social and
environmental wellbeing of people and
communities, achieving a better quality of life
for our own and future generations:




One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
What it means

In Wales, sustainable development means
enhancing the economic, social and
environmental wellbeing of people and
communities, achieving a better quality of life
for our own and future generations:




One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
How it is to be done

In ways which promote social justice and
equality of opportunity;




One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
How it is to be done

In ways which promote social justice and
equality of opportunity; and …




One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
How it is to be done

In ways which promote social justice and
equality of opportunity; and

In ways which enhance the natural and cultural
environment and respect its limits using only
our fair share of the earth’s resources and
sustaining our cultural legacy.


One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
Dimensions of well-being




Developed from report of the “Sarkhozy Commission” on the Measurement of Economic Performance and Social Progress
by Professor Joseph E. Stiglitz, Professor Amartya Sen and Professor Jean-Paul Fitoussi
Wellbeing maximised across
generations and through the life-course
Increasing body of empirical data
Millennium Ecosystem Assessment
          and wellbeing
Assets, services, wellbeing
                     Investment (+)

                                        Self-provided services
Production capital
                                        Goods and services in
 Human capital                              the market
                        Activity                                 Experience   Wellbeing
  Social capital
                                          Social goods and
 Natural capital                              services

                                        Ecosystems services



                     Depreciation (-)
Three conditions for a central
         organising principle…
1. A clear definition and overall aim that is
   supported by the whole government

2. It has to inform hard and different choices
   about money, policy focus and delivery

3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy
   and support
Hard choice 1: long-termism
                Projected UK health care spending
        (% GDP public & private, annotations at 2002-3 prices)

% GDP
    14
                          US spent                About £220 bn
                        14.6% GDP in              over 15 years
                        2002 (OECD)

    12                                                            e
                                                                ak              £30bn
                                                             upt
                                                        ow
                                                      Sl
    10                                                          Fully engaged




        8
                                                                                £154bn
                                                              £96bn
                                                              2007-8
        6


        4
        19 78

        19 83

        19 88

        19 93

        20 98

        20 03

        20 08

        20 13

        20 18

                3
             -2
             -

             -

             -

             -

             -

             -

             -

             -

             -
    77

          82

          87

          92

          97

          02

          07

          12

          17

          22
  19




   Source: Wanless, 2002 Securing Our Future Health: Taking A Long-Term View
Hard choice 1: Long termism




Finnish penal policy had two overall aims:

(i) the minimization of the costs and harmful effects of crime and of crime control

(ii) the fair distribution of these costs among the offender, society and the victim
Hard choice 2: silo-busting

• System-wide optimisation
  •   Hospitals vs community care
  •   Hospitals vs gritting pavements
  •   Prison & police vs youth inclusion
  •   Managing dysfunctional families
  •   Dealing with failure at school
  •   Catchment sensitive farming / SUDS
  •   Flood defence vs clean up and rebuild
  •   Energy efficiency vs renewables
Hard choice 3: using evidence

                            Micro-gen



  Energy
  efficiency
  Metering etc
Hard choice 3: Value for money in
            challenging times
        A more critical environment for policy-making and spending

                           Opportunity cost?
 Does 20% of effort                                    Sound rationale for
secure 80% of value?                                      intervening?


 Evidence for cost-                                  Credible market failure
  effectiveness?                                           rationale?
                                                      Will government do
    Unintended                                               better?
  consequences?

Review, break-point,                                    Deadweight and
     sunset?                                         displacement effects?

Looked at all options                                    Proportionate?
      fairly?
                            Measurement and
                              evaluation?                                      25
Hard choice 4: building resilience

• Investment in critical infrastructure
  •   Decarbonising and securing energy supply
  •   Demand management „smart roads, grids‟ etc
  •   Electrification of transport
  •   Flood and water management in a changing climate
  •   Digital inclusion and high speed broadband
  •   Meeting housing demand – quantity and quality
  •   Waste management and resource productivity

  …. at the expense of current consumption
Three conditions for a central
         organising principle…
1. A clear definition and overall aim that is
   supported by the whole government

2. It has to inform hard and different choices
   about money, policy focus and delivery

3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy
   and support
Non-negotiable?

Living within ecological limits is the non
negotiable basis for our social and economic
development

Jonathan Porritt
The negotiation
100



 90
          Most important issues facing Britain
      Q What would you say is the most        Pollution / environment
 80   important issue facing Britain today?
      Q What do you see as other important
      issues facing Britain today?
 70



 60        Ozone
            hole
 50
                                                               Peak concern
                                                                on climate
 40
                                                                  change
 30



 20



 10



  0
100
      Most important issues facing Britain
 90
                                Economy
                                Pollution / environment
 80                             Unemployment / job losses

 70



 60



 50



 40



 30



 20



 10



  0
Winning legitimacy and support

• Define an ideology and governing philosophy
    Formulate a compelling narrative
    Match words with deeds and act consistently
• Build trust by the way you work
    Evaluation, openness, external advice and scrutiny,
    genuine consultation , candour, media relations
• Use time – pursue slow big wins
    “Governments overestimate their power to achieve change
    in the short term, and underestimate it in the long term”
Trusted to tell the truth?




Trust in People /Trust in Doctors 2009 Ipsos MORI/ RCP September 2009 (2023 GB adults 15+)
Behaviour change
  Taxes & fiscal measures                      Remove barriers to act
     Regulation & fines                     Set defaults / opt-out vs opt-in
       League tables                          Form clubs / communities
 Targets / perf management                       Provide information
 Prizes / rewards / bonuses      Enable      Choose intervention timing
   Preferential treatment                            Personalise
     Status recognition                        Provide space / facilities
    Subsidies / discounts                         Build confidence
          Feedback                               Ease/cost of access


                Encourage       Catalyse     Engage



                                             Community/network action
       Evidence base
                                                   Deliberative fora
    Walk the talk & lead
                                                Segmentation / focus
Consistency across policies
                                Exemplify        Secure commitment
    Sustained approach
                                                  Personal contacts
  Credibility / confidence
                                             Role models / 'super-users'
Benchmarking / evaluation
                                            Paid/unpaid media campaigns
 Learning & improvement
                                            Pester power / Peer pressure
Political consensus building
                                                  Workplace norms
Three conditions for a central
            organising principle…
1. A clear definition and overall aim
     •   Maximisation and fair distribution of well-being over the long term

2. It has to inform hard but different choices
     •   Long-termism
     •   Silo-busting
     •   Evidence based
     •   Invest in resilience

3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy and support
     •   Clear ideology and narrative
     •   Build trust
     •   Behaviour change strategy
Annex 1

POSSIBLE POLICY IMPACTS
Starter for 10: families & community
• Integrate services and intervene intensively for the 2-3% families at most
  risk. These families can cost £250k / year
• Focus on adults and parenting skills, even if the objective is to secure
  wellbeing and social mobility of the children
• Find ways to help isolated older people to develop social networks and
  remain involved
• Recognising that relationship breakdown has negative wellbeing
  consequences, provide support for couples in difficulty and address
  potential drivers of breakdown (drugs, debt, prison)
• Promote opportunities for neighbours to get to know each other, based
  on clear evidence that this tends to enhance wellbeing
Starter for 10: health
• Place progressively greater emphasis and resources to evidence-based
  preventative measures, as envisaged in Our Healthy Future, and relatively
  less to treatment – though recognise that demographics and societal
  preference will drive underlying demand
• Help people get out and stay out of hospital by giving GPs stronger
  commissioning role covering health and social care
• Challenge the approach to the last years of life – considering whether the
  expense and intensity of interventions in the last two years of life provide
  the dignified death that most people say they want
• Place greater emphasis on mental health, with investment in cognitive
  behavioural therapies
Starter for 10: education
• Ensure the incentives and performance management for schools give
  proper weight to addressing the needs of those failing and at risk of
  leaving unqualified, considering the lifetime negative wellbeing
  consequences
• Have longer school days and four terms for disadvantaged children
  (reduce reliance on family support)
• Teach ‘resilience’ – drawing on the evidence that it improves academic
  performance and employability
• Create more rounded adaptable personalities, by specialising later
• Rethink career guidance and manage transitions to work
Starter for 10: crime
• Learn from Finland. Shift sentencing policy to minimise overall harm,
  including cost to taxpayer and consequences of reoffending: generally
  moving to community sentencing, restorative justice and prison as a last
  resort
• Greatly expanding ‘youth inclusion’ programmes and focussing on failure
  at school.
• Focus prisons on reducing reoffending, with greater attention aid to
  preparing for law-abiding life outside, avoiding extremely disruptive short-
  stay sentences and greater attention to transitions from custody to the
  community
• Adopt a harm minimisation approach to drugs – perhaps including
  prescribing
Starter for 10: economy
• Give due weight to GDP – but measure and care about what matters.
• Focus on assisting the transition from economic inactivity to productive
  activity. The focus should be on unemployment and jobs at all levels in
  the economy, not just hi-tech or knowledge-based.
• Focus on building the foundations of sustainable growth (establishing
  conditions in which forward looking and well managed businesses can
  thrive rather than direct business support
• Reshape apprenticeships and other programmes for teenagers to
  strengthen psychological fitness to help young people find and keep work
• Design transportation, housing and economic policy to reduce commuting
  time and allow a more localised economic and social geography
• Only go beyond regulations made at UK or EU level where the wellbeing
  case justifies it (applies generically).
Starter for 10: environment
• Promote resource efficiency as a dominant environmental strategy.
• Recognise total cost of flooding includes private costs (pooled cleaning up
  costs through insurance) and seek harm minimising allocation between
  avoiding floods, reduction of impact and costs of damage/repair.
• Give greater weight in the planning system to the high value that people
  place on owning their own home and living in pleasant surroundings
• Carefully differentiate protected areas – avoid overprotecting some and
  under-protecting others and give weight to access as a wellbeing driver
• Recast farming as a land management occupation and production of a
  mix of market good (food) and non-marketed goods and services – for
  which payments are made.
• In energy sector transition, place greater emphasis on the demand side
  and energy efficiency – relatively less on renewables. Be wary of high
  carbon cost technologies (microgen, PV etc)
Three conditions for a central
            organising principle…
1. A clear definition and overall aim
     •   Maximisation and fair distribution of well-being over the long term

2. It has to inform hard but different choices
     •   Long-termism
     •   Silo-busting
     •   Evidence based
     •   Invest in resilience

3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy and support
     •   Clear ideology and narrative
     •   Build trust
     •   Behaviour change strategy

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Making sense of sustainable development

  • 1. Making sense of sustainable development Clive Bates
  • 2. “Central organising principle” Sustainable development will be the central organising principle of the Welsh Assembly Government One Wales, One Planet One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
  • 3. What is it…? Development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs Brundtland definition
  • 4. Everyone‟s at it... For us, sustainability means addressing key business-related social, environmental and economic impacts in a way that aims to bring value to all our stakeholders, including shareholders. Paul Adams CEO, British American Tobacco
  • 5. We do have a problem… I know that this term is obligatory, but I find it also absurd, or rather so vague that it says nothing Luc Ferry, French philosopher
  • 6. Three conditions for a central organising principle… 1. A clear definition and overall aim that is supported by the whole government 2. It has to inform hard but different choices about money, policy focus and delivery 3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy and support
  • 7. Three conditions for a central organising principle… 1. A clear definition and overall aim that is supported by the whole government 2. It has to inform hard but different choices about money, policy focus and delivery 3. It must be possible to secure a sufficient mandate
  • 8. Single over-arching measure 1. We should measure progress in a way that can guide policy. This requires a single over-arching measure of how we are doing. [...] 2. The right single measure of progress must be the one that is self-evidently good. The only such measure is Richard Layard: "Why subjective well-being should be the measure of progress", given at the OECD World Forum on “Statistics, Knowledge and Policy Charting Progress, Building Visions, Improving Life", Busan, Korea - 27-30 October 2009 chard Layard,
  • 9. Single over-arching measure 1. We should measure progress in a way that can guide policy. This requires a single over-arching measure of how we are doing. [...] 2. The right single measure of progress must be the one that is self-evidently good. The only such measure is the happiness of the population - and the equivalent absence of misery. Richard Layard: "Why subjective well-being should be the measure of progress", given at the OECD World Forum on “Statistics, Knowledge and Policy Charting Progress, Building Visions, Improving Life", Busan, Korea - 27-30 October 2009 chard Layard,
  • 10. What it means In Wales, sustainable development means enhancing the economic, social and environmental wellbeing of people and communities, achieving a better quality of life for our own and future generations: One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
  • 11. What it means In Wales, sustainable development means enhancing the economic, social and environmental wellbeing of people and communities, achieving a better quality of life for our own and future generations: One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
  • 12. How it is to be done In ways which promote social justice and equality of opportunity; One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
  • 13. How it is to be done In ways which promote social justice and equality of opportunity; and … One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
  • 14. How it is to be done In ways which promote social justice and equality of opportunity; and In ways which enhance the natural and cultural environment and respect its limits using only our fair share of the earth’s resources and sustaining our cultural legacy. One Wales: One Planet, a new Sustainable Development Scheme for Wales, 22 May 2009.
  • 15. Dimensions of well-being Developed from report of the “Sarkhozy Commission” on the Measurement of Economic Performance and Social Progress by Professor Joseph E. Stiglitz, Professor Amartya Sen and Professor Jean-Paul Fitoussi
  • 16. Wellbeing maximised across generations and through the life-course
  • 17. Increasing body of empirical data
  • 19. Assets, services, wellbeing Investment (+) Self-provided services Production capital Goods and services in Human capital the market Activity Experience Wellbeing Social capital Social goods and Natural capital services Ecosystems services Depreciation (-)
  • 20. Three conditions for a central organising principle… 1. A clear definition and overall aim that is supported by the whole government 2. It has to inform hard and different choices about money, policy focus and delivery 3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy and support
  • 21. Hard choice 1: long-termism Projected UK health care spending (% GDP public & private, annotations at 2002-3 prices) % GDP 14 US spent About £220 bn 14.6% GDP in over 15 years 2002 (OECD) 12 e ak £30bn upt ow Sl 10 Fully engaged 8 £154bn £96bn 2007-8 6 4 19 78 19 83 19 88 19 93 20 98 20 03 20 08 20 13 20 18 3 -2 - - - - - - - - - 77 82 87 92 97 02 07 12 17 22 19 Source: Wanless, 2002 Securing Our Future Health: Taking A Long-Term View
  • 22. Hard choice 1: Long termism Finnish penal policy had two overall aims: (i) the minimization of the costs and harmful effects of crime and of crime control (ii) the fair distribution of these costs among the offender, society and the victim
  • 23. Hard choice 2: silo-busting • System-wide optimisation • Hospitals vs community care • Hospitals vs gritting pavements • Prison & police vs youth inclusion • Managing dysfunctional families • Dealing with failure at school • Catchment sensitive farming / SUDS • Flood defence vs clean up and rebuild • Energy efficiency vs renewables
  • 24. Hard choice 3: using evidence Micro-gen Energy efficiency Metering etc
  • 25. Hard choice 3: Value for money in challenging times A more critical environment for policy-making and spending Opportunity cost? Does 20% of effort Sound rationale for secure 80% of value? intervening? Evidence for cost- Credible market failure effectiveness? rationale? Will government do Unintended better? consequences? Review, break-point, Deadweight and sunset? displacement effects? Looked at all options Proportionate? fairly? Measurement and evaluation? 25
  • 26. Hard choice 4: building resilience • Investment in critical infrastructure • Decarbonising and securing energy supply • Demand management „smart roads, grids‟ etc • Electrification of transport • Flood and water management in a changing climate • Digital inclusion and high speed broadband • Meeting housing demand – quantity and quality • Waste management and resource productivity …. at the expense of current consumption
  • 27. Three conditions for a central organising principle… 1. A clear definition and overall aim that is supported by the whole government 2. It has to inform hard and different choices about money, policy focus and delivery 3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy and support
  • 28. Non-negotiable? Living within ecological limits is the non negotiable basis for our social and economic development Jonathan Porritt
  • 30. 100 90 Most important issues facing Britain Q What would you say is the most Pollution / environment 80 important issue facing Britain today? Q What do you see as other important issues facing Britain today? 70 60 Ozone hole 50 Peak concern on climate 40 change 30 20 10 0
  • 31. 100 Most important issues facing Britain 90 Economy Pollution / environment 80 Unemployment / job losses 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
  • 32. Winning legitimacy and support • Define an ideology and governing philosophy Formulate a compelling narrative Match words with deeds and act consistently • Build trust by the way you work Evaluation, openness, external advice and scrutiny, genuine consultation , candour, media relations • Use time – pursue slow big wins “Governments overestimate their power to achieve change in the short term, and underestimate it in the long term”
  • 33. Trusted to tell the truth? Trust in People /Trust in Doctors 2009 Ipsos MORI/ RCP September 2009 (2023 GB adults 15+)
  • 34. Behaviour change Taxes & fiscal measures Remove barriers to act Regulation & fines Set defaults / opt-out vs opt-in League tables Form clubs / communities Targets / perf management Provide information Prizes / rewards / bonuses Enable Choose intervention timing Preferential treatment Personalise Status recognition Provide space / facilities Subsidies / discounts Build confidence Feedback Ease/cost of access Encourage Catalyse Engage Community/network action Evidence base Deliberative fora Walk the talk & lead Segmentation / focus Consistency across policies Exemplify Secure commitment Sustained approach Personal contacts Credibility / confidence Role models / 'super-users' Benchmarking / evaluation Paid/unpaid media campaigns Learning & improvement Pester power / Peer pressure Political consensus building Workplace norms
  • 35. Three conditions for a central organising principle… 1. A clear definition and overall aim • Maximisation and fair distribution of well-being over the long term 2. It has to inform hard but different choices • Long-termism • Silo-busting • Evidence based • Invest in resilience 3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy and support • Clear ideology and narrative • Build trust • Behaviour change strategy
  • 37. Starter for 10: families & community • Integrate services and intervene intensively for the 2-3% families at most risk. These families can cost £250k / year • Focus on adults and parenting skills, even if the objective is to secure wellbeing and social mobility of the children • Find ways to help isolated older people to develop social networks and remain involved • Recognising that relationship breakdown has negative wellbeing consequences, provide support for couples in difficulty and address potential drivers of breakdown (drugs, debt, prison) • Promote opportunities for neighbours to get to know each other, based on clear evidence that this tends to enhance wellbeing
  • 38. Starter for 10: health • Place progressively greater emphasis and resources to evidence-based preventative measures, as envisaged in Our Healthy Future, and relatively less to treatment – though recognise that demographics and societal preference will drive underlying demand • Help people get out and stay out of hospital by giving GPs stronger commissioning role covering health and social care • Challenge the approach to the last years of life – considering whether the expense and intensity of interventions in the last two years of life provide the dignified death that most people say they want • Place greater emphasis on mental health, with investment in cognitive behavioural therapies
  • 39. Starter for 10: education • Ensure the incentives and performance management for schools give proper weight to addressing the needs of those failing and at risk of leaving unqualified, considering the lifetime negative wellbeing consequences • Have longer school days and four terms for disadvantaged children (reduce reliance on family support) • Teach ‘resilience’ – drawing on the evidence that it improves academic performance and employability • Create more rounded adaptable personalities, by specialising later • Rethink career guidance and manage transitions to work
  • 40. Starter for 10: crime • Learn from Finland. Shift sentencing policy to minimise overall harm, including cost to taxpayer and consequences of reoffending: generally moving to community sentencing, restorative justice and prison as a last resort • Greatly expanding ‘youth inclusion’ programmes and focussing on failure at school. • Focus prisons on reducing reoffending, with greater attention aid to preparing for law-abiding life outside, avoiding extremely disruptive short- stay sentences and greater attention to transitions from custody to the community • Adopt a harm minimisation approach to drugs – perhaps including prescribing
  • 41. Starter for 10: economy • Give due weight to GDP – but measure and care about what matters. • Focus on assisting the transition from economic inactivity to productive activity. The focus should be on unemployment and jobs at all levels in the economy, not just hi-tech or knowledge-based. • Focus on building the foundations of sustainable growth (establishing conditions in which forward looking and well managed businesses can thrive rather than direct business support • Reshape apprenticeships and other programmes for teenagers to strengthen psychological fitness to help young people find and keep work • Design transportation, housing and economic policy to reduce commuting time and allow a more localised economic and social geography • Only go beyond regulations made at UK or EU level where the wellbeing case justifies it (applies generically).
  • 42. Starter for 10: environment • Promote resource efficiency as a dominant environmental strategy. • Recognise total cost of flooding includes private costs (pooled cleaning up costs through insurance) and seek harm minimising allocation between avoiding floods, reduction of impact and costs of damage/repair. • Give greater weight in the planning system to the high value that people place on owning their own home and living in pleasant surroundings • Carefully differentiate protected areas – avoid overprotecting some and under-protecting others and give weight to access as a wellbeing driver • Recast farming as a land management occupation and production of a mix of market good (food) and non-marketed goods and services – for which payments are made. • In energy sector transition, place greater emphasis on the demand side and energy efficiency – relatively less on renewables. Be wary of high carbon cost technologies (microgen, PV etc)
  • 43. Three conditions for a central organising principle… 1. A clear definition and overall aim • Maximisation and fair distribution of well-being over the long term 2. It has to inform hard but different choices • Long-termism • Silo-busting • Evidence based • Invest in resilience 3. It must be possible to secure legitimacy and support • Clear ideology and narrative • Build trust • Behaviour change strategy

Editor's Notes

  1. Chief Economist has provided a brief handbook for policy appraisal and challenge
  2. The survey asks respondents “Now I will read you a list of different types of people. For each would youtell me if you generally trust them to tell the truth, or not?” The chart shows the difference between scores for ‘would trust’ and ‘would not trust’ and ignores don’t knows. The results for Wales are not that different:For ministers net distrust is somewhat higher -70% compared to -63% for GB – note this does not refer specifically to Welsh ministers. For civil servants net distrust is +1% and same as GB