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© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Laura Morris, MT (ASCP), CIC
Education Coordinator
PUZZLED BY
THE ROLE OF
INFECTION
PREVENTIONISTS IN
WATER MANAGEMENT
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Thank you!
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
What Is an Infection Preventionist?
• Healthcare professionals dedicated to
preventing healthcare-associated
infections
• The infection preventionist’s highest
priority is keeping patients, visitors,
volunteers, employees and
healthcare providers safe form
healthcare-associated infections
(HAIs)
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Infection Preventionist Wear Many Hats
Construction
HLD/Sterilization
C.difficile
CAUTI
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
IP Responsibilities
• Surveillance, analyzing and reporting HAIs
• Infection Prevention rounding/EOC Rounds
• Education patients, staff and visitors
• Liaisons with health departments
• Outbreak investigations
• Emergency preparedness
• Regulatory preparedness
• Members/lead IP committees
• Construction /renovation
• New product evaluation
• Subject matter expert
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
CDC Focuses on Effective
Water Management
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
ASHRAE 188/CDC Toolkit
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
CMS Memo
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Coordinate Team
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Water Management Team
GENERAL
• Building
manager/administrator
• Maintenance /engineering
employees
• Safety Officers
• Contractors/consultants
• Environmental health
specialist
• State and local health
officials
ADDITIONAL FOR
HEALTHCARE
• Someone who
understands accreditation
standards and licensing
requirements
• Someone with expertise
in infection prevention
• A clinician with expertise
in infectious diseases
• Risk and quality
management staff
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Study
We analyzed data from 83 healthcare
facilities we have consulted with since
June 2017 (CMS issued)
• Questions-
 What was the team composition?
 Was infection prevention present on team?
 Were facilities proactive (before a case) or reactive in WSMP
development?
 Were facilities acute care or long-term care?
 What were the water system components?
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_USA_with_sta
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Results
Team Composition Data:
 Team size range - 1-18
members
 Average size – 4.6
members
 95% of teams had facilities
/engineers on team
 72% of teams had a water
treater on team
 54% of teams had
administration on team
 53% of teams had IP on
team
95%
72%
54% 53%
0%
10%
20%
30%
40%
50%
60%
70%
80%
90%
100%
Percentage of Teams with Department
Represented
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Results
Proactive vs. Reactive WSMP Development
• Proactive WSMP development - 86% (71/83)
• Reactive WSMP development – 14% (12/83)
 IP on reactive team - 58% (7/12)
 IP NOT on reactive team – 42% (5/12)
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Testing Is Revealing
Hospitals performing
Legionella environmental
testing were more likely to
prevent cases of
hospital-acquired
Legionnaires’ disease
Squier CL, Stout JE, Krystofiak S, McMahon J,
Wagener MM, Dixon B. Yu VL. Am. J. Infect.
Control 2005; 33(6): 360-367.
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
TESTING PLAYS AN
IMPORTANT ROLE IN
LEGIONELLA PREVENTION
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Legionella Colony Morphology
Colonies of Legionella pneumophila have a
typical ground-glass, opalescent morphology
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Environmental Cultures
• IP may be responsible for
 Collecting cultures
 Interpreting results
 Reporting to Water Safety Management
Team
 Making sure schedule is being followed
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Clinical Cultures
• Providers should be educated to
maintain a high index of suspicion for
diagnosis of healthcare-associated
Legionellosis
• Should perform cultures for
Legionella of appropriate respiratory
specimen and urinary antigen test
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Diagnosis: Order Culture and
Urine Antigen!
https://www.cdc.gov/legionella/clinicians.html
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Surveillance HA-Legionellosis
• Does lab notify IP immediately of positive
Legionella clinical test?
• In house testing vs. outside lab?
• Communication with lab
• Electronic surveillance system set up to
alert IP
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Definitions Healthcare-associated
• Incubation period for Legionnaires’
disease is typically 2-10 days, but can be
longer
• Presumptive case: A case with ≥ 10
days continuous stay at HC facility in 14
days before onset of symptoms
• Possible Case: admitted for a portion of
the 14 days prior to onset in one more HC
facilities but does not meet presumptive
case definition
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Problem
• The average length of stay for pneumonia
in the U.S. is 5.4 days.*
• Very few cases will fulfill the definition for
“Presumptive” healthcare-acquired
Legionnaires’ disease.
*According to the Healthcare Cost and Utilization Project Nationwide
Inpatient Sample from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Health Department Liaison
• Reporting – within 24 hours
• Water history reporting
• Treatment
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Types of Waterborne Pathogens
• (Opportunistic) Pathogens
 Legionella, Pseudomonas, Mycobacteria,
etc.
 DW treatment (filtration/disinfection)
• May not remove or inactivate 100%
 Can amplify after treatment in distribution
• Nutrients, lack of disinfectant, other organisms
 Total Coliform or HPC cannot be used as
an indicator or presence/absence
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
CMS Examples of
Waterborne Pathogens
• Legionella
• Pseudomonas aeruginosa
• Acinetobacter
• Burkholderia
• Stenotrophomonas
• Nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM)
• Fungi
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Legionella vs. Other
Opportunistic Pathogens
LEGIONELLA
• Source
 Building Water Systems
OTHER PATHOGENS
• Source
 Building Water Systems
 Surfaces
 Soil
 Air
 Dust
 Cleaning Solutions
 Sink Drains
 Flowers, Fruits and
Vegetables
 Other infected patients
 Etc.
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Legionella vs. Other
Opportunistic Pathogens
LEGIONELLA
• Primary Infection Site
 Lungs / Pneumonia
OTHER PATHOGENS
• Infection Sites
 Lungs / Pneumonia
 Urinary Tract
 Soft Tissue / Eyes
 Burns
 Wounds
 Blood
 Etc.
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Legionella vs. Other
Opportunistic Pathogens
LEGIONELLA
• Transmission
 Aspiration
 Inhalation / Aerosols
 Direct instillation into
the patient
OTHER PATHOGENS
• Transmission
 Aspiration
 Inhalation / Aerosols
 Direct Contact
• Hand-to-Hand
• Medical Equipment
• Medical Solutions
 Environmental Contact
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Legionella vs. Other
Opportunistic Pathogens
• Other differences
 Growth factors
• temperature, nutrients, etc
 Survival outside of water
 Susceptibility to disinfectants
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Legionella vs. Other
Opportunistic Pathogens
• Conclusion
 Water Safety and Management Plan
(ASHRAE 188) specific for control of
Legionella and prevention of
Legionnaires' disease
 Other pathogens should be considered,
but require other infection control
procedures to control growth and
prevent disease
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Legionella vs. Other
Opportunistic Pathogens
LEGIONELLA
• Infection Prevention
 Identifying the risk
through proactive
monitoring for Legionella
 Development and
implementation of water
management programs
in building water
systems.
OTHER PATHOGENS
• Infection Prevention
 Hand hygiene,
 Cleaning and disinfecting
environmental surfaces and
reusable medical equipment
 Use single-use devices
when feasible
 Using sterile water and
solutions when indicated
 Minimizing the use of
invasive medical devices
 Antibiotic stewardship
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Surveillance Other
Waterborne Pathogens
• Closely track any common waterborne
pathogens
• Look for trends
 Pseudomonas
 Acinetobacter
 Burkholderia
 Stenotrophomonas
 Nontuberculous Mycobacteria
 Fungus
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
List Listing Data
• List all patients with the following information:
 Name
 Medical record
 Date of birth
 Date of admission
 Admission diagnosis
 Underlying immunocompromising diseases
 Date of positive test
 Type of laboratory test ( urine Ag, culture)
 Date onset of symptoms
 Date of all visits to facility with in last 2 weeks ( in and
outpatient)
 Location of all inpatient stays ( room number)
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Construction
• IP important member of team
• Involved from design phase
• Commission post-construction
 Flushing
 Culturing
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Design Considerations
• Sinks
 Number and location
 Hand washing sinks
 Drains offset
 Electronic faucets
• Toilet location
• Supplies not by water source/splash
guard
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Disturbing Findings
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Infection Control Hospital Epid 2012
University Study 2012
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Decorative Water Features
Not recommended for healthcare facilities
 Aerosolization
 Submerged lighting
 Submerged pumps
Guidelines for Environmental Infection Control in Health-Care Facilities
(2003) ,CDC and HICPAC
• Avoid placing decorative fountains and fish tanks in patient-care areas
• FGI Guidelines 2018
 Unsealed (open) water features are no longer permitted inside a
hospital or in a licensed outpatient health care occupancy area
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Decorative Fountains
Water Wall Sponge-like foam material
1.2 million CFU Legionella
Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology, 33, No. 2 (February 2012),185-191
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Ice/Water Dispensers
• Cause for concern
 Cold water feed
 Increased internal
water temperatures
• Location
 Service to at-risk
individuals
• Manufacturer
guidelines
 Performance not
biofilm
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
External Events
• Vibrations and change in water
pressure can dislodge biofilm and
free Legionella into the water entering
your building
 Construction
 Water main breaks
• Change in Municipal water quality
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
New Products Committee
Will it -
 contain water?
 require water?
 attach to water line?
Think waterborne pathogen prevention!
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Transmission by CPAP?
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Recalls
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Stay Informed
• CDC
• APIC
• CMS/The Joint Commission
• Local and State Health Departments
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Reopening Building Water Systems
Resources for Water Safety and Management Teams:
• “Building Water System.” Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention, Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, 3 Apr. 2020, www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-
ncov/php/building-water-system.html.
• “Building Water Quality and Coronavirus: Flushing
Guidance for Periods of Low or No
Use.” Esprinstitute.org, Environmental Science, Policy &
Research Institute, 2020, esprinstitute.org/wp-
content/uploads/2020/04/FINAL_Coronavirus-Building-
Flushing-Guidance-20200403-rev-1.pdf.
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
Reopening Building Water Systems
Resources for Water Safety and Management Teams:
• DeMarco, Peter. “Rehabilitating Stagnant Building Water Systems
– A Timely Reminder from the IAPMO Group.” IAMPO.org,
www.iapmo.org/media/23575/flushing-stagnant-plumbing-
systems.pdf.
• “Shutoffs and Return to Service Guidance.” American Water Works
Association, www.awwa.org/Resources-Tools/Resource-
Topics/Coronavirus#10681543-shutoffs-and-return-to-service-
guidance.
• “Water Transmission and COVID-19: Questions and Answers.”
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention, 3 Apr. 2020,
www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/water.html.
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
THANK YOU! STAY SAFE!
WWW.SPECIALPATHOGENSLAB.COM
INFO@SPECIALPATHOGENSLAB.COM
© Special Pathogens Laboratory
WEDNESDAY WEBINARS
MAY 20, Puzzled by Water Quality Measurements and
Legionella Risk?
JUNE 3, Puzzled by Point Of Use Water Filters?

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Puzzled by Infection Preventionists in Water Management?

  • 1. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Laura Morris, MT (ASCP), CIC Education Coordinator PUZZLED BY THE ROLE OF INFECTION PREVENTIONISTS IN WATER MANAGEMENT
  • 2. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Thank you!
  • 3. © Special Pathogens Laboratory What Is an Infection Preventionist? • Healthcare professionals dedicated to preventing healthcare-associated infections • The infection preventionist’s highest priority is keeping patients, visitors, volunteers, employees and healthcare providers safe form healthcare-associated infections (HAIs)
  • 4. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Infection Preventionist Wear Many Hats Construction HLD/Sterilization C.difficile CAUTI
  • 5. © Special Pathogens Laboratory IP Responsibilities • Surveillance, analyzing and reporting HAIs • Infection Prevention rounding/EOC Rounds • Education patients, staff and visitors • Liaisons with health departments • Outbreak investigations • Emergency preparedness • Regulatory preparedness • Members/lead IP committees • Construction /renovation • New product evaluation • Subject matter expert
  • 6. © Special Pathogens Laboratory
  • 7. © Special Pathogens Laboratory CDC Focuses on Effective Water Management
  • 8. © Special Pathogens Laboratory ASHRAE 188/CDC Toolkit
  • 9. © Special Pathogens Laboratory CMS Memo
  • 10. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Coordinate Team
  • 11. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Water Management Team GENERAL • Building manager/administrator • Maintenance /engineering employees • Safety Officers • Contractors/consultants • Environmental health specialist • State and local health officials ADDITIONAL FOR HEALTHCARE • Someone who understands accreditation standards and licensing requirements • Someone with expertise in infection prevention • A clinician with expertise in infectious diseases • Risk and quality management staff
  • 12. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Study We analyzed data from 83 healthcare facilities we have consulted with since June 2017 (CMS issued) • Questions-  What was the team composition?  Was infection prevention present on team?  Were facilities proactive (before a case) or reactive in WSMP development?  Were facilities acute care or long-term care?  What were the water system components?
  • 13. © Special Pathogens Laboratory https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_USA_with_sta
  • 14. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Results Team Composition Data:  Team size range - 1-18 members  Average size – 4.6 members  95% of teams had facilities /engineers on team  72% of teams had a water treater on team  54% of teams had administration on team  53% of teams had IP on team 95% 72% 54% 53% 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100% Percentage of Teams with Department Represented
  • 15. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Results Proactive vs. Reactive WSMP Development • Proactive WSMP development - 86% (71/83) • Reactive WSMP development – 14% (12/83)  IP on reactive team - 58% (7/12)  IP NOT on reactive team – 42% (5/12)
  • 16. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Testing Is Revealing Hospitals performing Legionella environmental testing were more likely to prevent cases of hospital-acquired Legionnaires’ disease Squier CL, Stout JE, Krystofiak S, McMahon J, Wagener MM, Dixon B. Yu VL. Am. J. Infect. Control 2005; 33(6): 360-367.
  • 17. © Special Pathogens Laboratory TESTING PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN LEGIONELLA PREVENTION
  • 18. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Legionella Colony Morphology Colonies of Legionella pneumophila have a typical ground-glass, opalescent morphology
  • 19. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Environmental Cultures • IP may be responsible for  Collecting cultures  Interpreting results  Reporting to Water Safety Management Team  Making sure schedule is being followed
  • 20. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Clinical Cultures • Providers should be educated to maintain a high index of suspicion for diagnosis of healthcare-associated Legionellosis • Should perform cultures for Legionella of appropriate respiratory specimen and urinary antigen test
  • 21. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Diagnosis: Order Culture and Urine Antigen! https://www.cdc.gov/legionella/clinicians.html
  • 22. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Surveillance HA-Legionellosis • Does lab notify IP immediately of positive Legionella clinical test? • In house testing vs. outside lab? • Communication with lab • Electronic surveillance system set up to alert IP
  • 23. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Definitions Healthcare-associated • Incubation period for Legionnaires’ disease is typically 2-10 days, but can be longer • Presumptive case: A case with ≥ 10 days continuous stay at HC facility in 14 days before onset of symptoms • Possible Case: admitted for a portion of the 14 days prior to onset in one more HC facilities but does not meet presumptive case definition
  • 24. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Problem • The average length of stay for pneumonia in the U.S. is 5.4 days.* • Very few cases will fulfill the definition for “Presumptive” healthcare-acquired Legionnaires’ disease. *According to the Healthcare Cost and Utilization Project Nationwide Inpatient Sample from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality
  • 25. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Health Department Liaison • Reporting – within 24 hours • Water history reporting • Treatment
  • 26. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Types of Waterborne Pathogens • (Opportunistic) Pathogens  Legionella, Pseudomonas, Mycobacteria, etc.  DW treatment (filtration/disinfection) • May not remove or inactivate 100%  Can amplify after treatment in distribution • Nutrients, lack of disinfectant, other organisms  Total Coliform or HPC cannot be used as an indicator or presence/absence
  • 27. © Special Pathogens Laboratory CMS Examples of Waterborne Pathogens • Legionella • Pseudomonas aeruginosa • Acinetobacter • Burkholderia • Stenotrophomonas • Nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) • Fungi
  • 28. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Legionella vs. Other Opportunistic Pathogens LEGIONELLA • Source  Building Water Systems OTHER PATHOGENS • Source  Building Water Systems  Surfaces  Soil  Air  Dust  Cleaning Solutions  Sink Drains  Flowers, Fruits and Vegetables  Other infected patients  Etc.
  • 29. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Legionella vs. Other Opportunistic Pathogens LEGIONELLA • Primary Infection Site  Lungs / Pneumonia OTHER PATHOGENS • Infection Sites  Lungs / Pneumonia  Urinary Tract  Soft Tissue / Eyes  Burns  Wounds  Blood  Etc.
  • 30. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Legionella vs. Other Opportunistic Pathogens LEGIONELLA • Transmission  Aspiration  Inhalation / Aerosols  Direct instillation into the patient OTHER PATHOGENS • Transmission  Aspiration  Inhalation / Aerosols  Direct Contact • Hand-to-Hand • Medical Equipment • Medical Solutions  Environmental Contact
  • 31. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Legionella vs. Other Opportunistic Pathogens • Other differences  Growth factors • temperature, nutrients, etc  Survival outside of water  Susceptibility to disinfectants
  • 32. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Legionella vs. Other Opportunistic Pathogens • Conclusion  Water Safety and Management Plan (ASHRAE 188) specific for control of Legionella and prevention of Legionnaires' disease  Other pathogens should be considered, but require other infection control procedures to control growth and prevent disease
  • 33. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Legionella vs. Other Opportunistic Pathogens LEGIONELLA • Infection Prevention  Identifying the risk through proactive monitoring for Legionella  Development and implementation of water management programs in building water systems. OTHER PATHOGENS • Infection Prevention  Hand hygiene,  Cleaning and disinfecting environmental surfaces and reusable medical equipment  Use single-use devices when feasible  Using sterile water and solutions when indicated  Minimizing the use of invasive medical devices  Antibiotic stewardship
  • 34. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Surveillance Other Waterborne Pathogens • Closely track any common waterborne pathogens • Look for trends  Pseudomonas  Acinetobacter  Burkholderia  Stenotrophomonas  Nontuberculous Mycobacteria  Fungus
  • 35. © Special Pathogens Laboratory List Listing Data • List all patients with the following information:  Name  Medical record  Date of birth  Date of admission  Admission diagnosis  Underlying immunocompromising diseases  Date of positive test  Type of laboratory test ( urine Ag, culture)  Date onset of symptoms  Date of all visits to facility with in last 2 weeks ( in and outpatient)  Location of all inpatient stays ( room number)
  • 36. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Construction • IP important member of team • Involved from design phase • Commission post-construction  Flushing  Culturing
  • 37. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Design Considerations • Sinks  Number and location  Hand washing sinks  Drains offset  Electronic faucets • Toilet location • Supplies not by water source/splash guard
  • 38. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Disturbing Findings
  • 39. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Infection Control Hospital Epid 2012 University Study 2012
  • 40. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Decorative Water Features Not recommended for healthcare facilities  Aerosolization  Submerged lighting  Submerged pumps Guidelines for Environmental Infection Control in Health-Care Facilities (2003) ,CDC and HICPAC • Avoid placing decorative fountains and fish tanks in patient-care areas • FGI Guidelines 2018  Unsealed (open) water features are no longer permitted inside a hospital or in a licensed outpatient health care occupancy area
  • 41. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Decorative Fountains Water Wall Sponge-like foam material 1.2 million CFU Legionella Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology, 33, No. 2 (February 2012),185-191
  • 42. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Ice/Water Dispensers • Cause for concern  Cold water feed  Increased internal water temperatures • Location  Service to at-risk individuals • Manufacturer guidelines  Performance not biofilm
  • 43. © Special Pathogens Laboratory External Events • Vibrations and change in water pressure can dislodge biofilm and free Legionella into the water entering your building  Construction  Water main breaks • Change in Municipal water quality
  • 44. © Special Pathogens Laboratory New Products Committee Will it -  contain water?  require water?  attach to water line? Think waterborne pathogen prevention!
  • 45. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Transmission by CPAP?
  • 46. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Recalls
  • 47. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Stay Informed • CDC • APIC • CMS/The Joint Commission • Local and State Health Departments
  • 48. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Reopening Building Water Systems Resources for Water Safety and Management Teams: • “Building Water System.” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 3 Apr. 2020, www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019- ncov/php/building-water-system.html. • “Building Water Quality and Coronavirus: Flushing Guidance for Periods of Low or No Use.” Esprinstitute.org, Environmental Science, Policy & Research Institute, 2020, esprinstitute.org/wp- content/uploads/2020/04/FINAL_Coronavirus-Building- Flushing-Guidance-20200403-rev-1.pdf.
  • 49. © Special Pathogens Laboratory Reopening Building Water Systems Resources for Water Safety and Management Teams: • DeMarco, Peter. “Rehabilitating Stagnant Building Water Systems – A Timely Reminder from the IAPMO Group.” IAMPO.org, www.iapmo.org/media/23575/flushing-stagnant-plumbing- systems.pdf. • “Shutoffs and Return to Service Guidance.” American Water Works Association, www.awwa.org/Resources-Tools/Resource- Topics/Coronavirus#10681543-shutoffs-and-return-to-service- guidance. • “Water Transmission and COVID-19: Questions and Answers.” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 3 Apr. 2020, www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/water.html.
  • 50. © Special Pathogens Laboratory THANK YOU! STAY SAFE! WWW.SPECIALPATHOGENSLAB.COM INFO@SPECIALPATHOGENSLAB.COM
  • 51. © Special Pathogens Laboratory WEDNESDAY WEBINARS MAY 20, Puzzled by Water Quality Measurements and Legionella Risk? JUNE 3, Puzzled by Point Of Use Water Filters?