This report provides a comparative analysis of two artisan bakeries in Malaysia: White Brick Oven bakery in Sungai Buloh, Selangor and Tommy le Baker in Kuala Lumpur. Both bakeries were founded over 10 years ago and produce bread without additives, but they differ in their approaches. White Brick Oven uses imported ingredients and focuses on organic products, while Tommy le Baker emphasizes the fermentation process. Tommy le Baker has 3-4 employees and higher sales, while White Brick Oven is run solely by the owner. The report analyzes the histories, operations, products and views of the two owners on what is needed to succeed in the baking industry.

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ENGLISH II
(ELG 30605)
Project #02:
“A Comparative Analysis of 2 Businesses of Similar Industry
in Different Geographical Locations”
Chosen Business: Artisan Bakeries
(“White Brick Oven” & “Tommy le Baker”)
Done by:
- Natalie Ki Xiao Xuan (0318918)
- Ameer Farhan Bin Ramlan (0319304)
- Philia Chua Yi Sian (0318936)
- Andrew Mah Koon Yan (0318798)
- Muhammad Naim Ariffin (0319698)
- Mohamad Ridzwan Bin Rosman (0313350)

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Table of Contents
Cover Page 1
Table of Contents 2
Key Summary 3
Description of the History of
Baking & Artisan Baking
4 - 6
Description & Comparative
Analysis of the Businesses
7 - 21
Similarity & Dissimilarity
Table
22 - 25
Recommendations 26
Appendices 27 - 34
Attachments 35 - 36
References & Bibliography 37

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Key Summary
This report is the written component of the final assignment of English 2 [ELG 30605]. In
this assignment, we were required to get into groups of 5-6 students to carry out a
comparative analysis of two businesses of similar industry in different geographical
locations that has been around for at least 10-15 years in the Klang Valley, one being
home-based, and the other commercialized.
This research assignment must be completed through extensive research on the
industry we have chosen, either through books, magazines, the internet etc. Other than
that, we were also required to conduct a personal interview with the owner or founder of
the chosen businesses to obtain more detailed and personal information regarding the
history and development of both businesses. The comparative analysis included in this
report could only be done after the compilation of all primary and secondary sources
mentioned.

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Description of the History of Baking & Artisan Baking
For this project, we have decided to focus on the baking trade. The baking industry in
Malaysia can be traced back to the nineteen fifties. During those times, bread came in
different forms from the type that we eat today as the Chinese and Indian vendors had
different types of baking styles, which were influenced from their culture’s traditional
baking methods.
Originally, the start of this industry came from small Indian bakeries that sold western-
styled baked leavened bread made out of wheat flour, mainly tinned and open-topped.
Eventually, when the demand of bread increased, the production rate also escalated,
thus enabling these vendors to sell their breads to coffee shops. The rise of demand in
baked goods also led to vendors selling their goods on “tri-wheeled delivery
trucks/bikes”. This has become an important cultural memory for many Malaysians
nowadays, who fondly recall the sound of the vendors’ bells as they drive through the
streets, hoping to sell their goods. Throughout the years, different businesses have

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opened in order to sell their own versions and specialties of baking. One specific field in
the world of baking is known as ‘artisan baking’.
Artisan baking literally translates to the ‘art of baking’. The term is used to describe a
style of baking that goes beyond basic mixing of ingredients, as the baker involved can
be seen as more of a craftsman; trained to the highest skill in mixing, fermenting,
shaping and baking a hand-crafted loaf of bread. An artisan baker has to understand
the science behind the chemical compounds of the ingredients as well as their
reactions. Through this knowledge, they can bake the best bread in the right
environment.

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The growth of artisan bakeries in Malaysia has been around not long after the start of
the countries’ bread-making industry. Many artisan bakeries in Malaysia have started
from small families that specialize in this due to past family cultures of bread-making. In
addition to these local artisan bakeries, some are opened up by people from other
countries, who have migrated to Malaysia in order to set up their own bakeries.
Combined with this, the identity of artisan bakeries in Malaysia have started to grow,
resulting in more people taking interest of the art of bread-making.

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Description & Comparative Analysis of the Businesses
For our report, we decided to study two artisan bakeries. One of them is called ‘White
Brick Oven’ Bakery, which is located in Jalan Gajah 14, Kampung Kubu Gajah, 47000,
Sungai Buloh, Selangor, and the other is ‘Tommy le Baker’, which can be found in Viva
Residency, Jalan Ipoh, 3rd Mile Jalan Ipoh, Kuala Lumpur, Wilayah Persekutuan.
‘White Brick Oven’ is a small home-based bakery that is founded by Mr. Mustaffa – a
70 year old man with a passion for baking. Born in England, Mr. Mustaffa worked in the
oil, gas and IT industry before baking. Back in the 1960’s, he had experienced working
in parts of Thailand and Northern Malaysia before eventually migrating to Malaysia
permanently with his wife, Mardia, 12 years prior. This English baker has been baking is
whole life with the influence and guidance of his grandmother.

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The other bakery, ‘Tommy le Baker’, is a commercialized bakery owned by Mr.
Tommy. At 40 years of age, he is a professionally trained baker who studied linguistics
originally, back in 1999, but due to the inflation, Mr. Tommy decided to study baking as
a skill at the age of 27 instead, leading him to pursue baking in a vocational institution in
France. Following his education, he began working in cafés and hotels, where the
pastries and cakes made him feel comfortable by being surrounded in an environment
of patisserie. Even though the male was still unsure of pursuing a career as a baker at
that time, he eventually ended up at one, successfully making a name out of himself.
These two businesses both started out in the same manner. Mr. Tommy and Mr.
Mustaffa originally started baking bread for themselves, but due to growing interest,
both bakers eventually ended up making a business out of it. Nonetheless, the
development of their two bakeries is different. Mr. Mustaffa started out baking for
himself as he “could not stand the taste of bread here in Malaysia”, but expanded to
building a business as more of his friends and relatives liked it. At the same time, Mr.
Tommy started his business back in November 2010, where he was only baking in a

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tiny shop to satisfy his fascination of the fermentation process; as well its effect on the
coating colour on the loaves. Through his continuous experimentations, he found his
business growing into what it is today.
Both of these bakeries have only one outlet or branch and are led by Mr. Mustaffa and
Mr. Tommy themselves, but unlike ‘White Brick Oven’, which does not have any other
forces of labor, ‘Tommy le Baker’ is aided by three or four members of staff, who look
after the store when Mr. Tommy has other duties to attend to. This allows him to run
< Mr. Tommy’s bakery is
aided by three to four
staff/bakers.
< Mr. Mustaffa’s bakery is
simple with no staff
members.

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errands and personal tasks as he believes in respecting his employees, who would
seek his help when they require it. The only issue with him regarding this is that Mr.
Tommy feels as if he has personal issues with trusting his new employees with his
breads, which he fondly calls his “babies”.
“I do have personal struggles,” Tommy Lee admits, “It is when I have to hand over my
babies (my dough), to someone who doesn’t truly understand the nature of
development of the dough. I would continue to struggle until I am totally assured that the
baker who’s working for me loves to take care of my babies as well, haha!”
Equipment and supplies are not an issue for both bakeries, according to the two
founders, but they take different approaches in obtaining their materials. In terms of
equipment for baking, ‘White Brick Oven’ bakery uses all international equipment, which
was only obtained because Mr. Mustaffa has “given up wasting time in looking for
equipment around Malaysia any more”. The baker claims that the incompetence he

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finds in the suppliers here has caused him copious moments of frustration.
“Even if they have a website, they haven’t used it since the day they set it up! They
never read their emails either! Online purchases from places out of the country are
much more efficient and easy. They should monitor this!” Mr. Mustaffa exclaims
passionately, while on the other side, Mr. Tommy says that he started out with all
Malaysian-assembled equipment, which he has now traded for higher quality equipment
with the money he has made over the years.
Other than equipment, the two bakers do have similar opinions on finding ingredients,
which they say are all easy to source locally and provided either from local suppliers or
wholesalers.
The main product that these two bakeries sell is special bread that is unlike ordinary
loaves as they are made without any additives or added ingredients other than flour,
water, salt, yeast (or fermentation). Despite this common product, they differ in the
sense that ‘White Brick Oven’ bakes organic bread with grains and flour imported from
Austria, which is then kept in a cold room in order to preserve the purity. ‘Tommy le
Baker’, on the other hand, focuses on the cultivation and fermentation value of bread

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and the pronounced flavor of their product that has helped make their unique taste a
store trademark. While Mr. Tommy’s products are also made with the same simple
ingredients, he does not bother to have them imported from overseas, and focuses
more on the cultivation of the fermentation process of his products.
“He (Mr. Mustaffa) is looking into very organic products, some sort away from
civilization. I, on the other hand, am very modern.” Mr. Tommy said, referencing to the
differences between Mr. Mustaffa’s approach and his own.
In addition to organic bread, ‘White Brick Oven’ also provides other products such as
scones, cakes and biscuits. The bakery is also the host to a Sunday café, strategically
located outside the bakery. The purpose of this café was for Mr. Mustaffa to be able to
interact with his customers more: “We had so many customers coming around, and they
all came at really odd times. I really couldn’t spend the time to chat with each one of
them, so I decided they could only come on Sundays to look around”. According to the
English baker, the café has helped this issue, and now every Sundays from 3:00 p.m. to

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6:00 p.m., customers of the ‘White Brick Oven’, flock for tea and scones at his Sunday
café.
In terms of customers, the differences between the two bakeries are rather vast. While
‘White Brick Oven’ only gets roughly 40 to 50 orders monthly, ‘Tommy le Baker’ gets 70
transactions on a weekday and well over 100 on weekends; meaning RM 1000 to RM
2000 on weekdays, and RM 4000 to RM 5000 on weekends. Mr. Mustaffa’s customers
are usually people who require special loafs as they are in need to be conscious of their
health. Pregnant women and cancer patients are one of his biggest customers and
sometimes individuals who are interested in his flavor come to his shop in order to buy a
piece of his bread. The bakery is also a supplier to JustLife and Jason’s Food Hall,
organic stores in Malaysia that use his special bread to promote good, healthy pastries.

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In contrast to that, ‘Tommy le Baker’ is not a supplier to any known stores at the
moment, as the bakery itself serves as a store. Their customers are “all walks of life”, as
Mr. Tommy states, and about 85% to 90% of the customers are people who purchase
solely because of the value of taste as well as to sate their own personal satisfaction.
The remaining 10% to 15% are, as Mr. Tommy humorously calls them, the “I-want-to-
have-a-piece-of-Tommy-le-Baker-sandwich-customers”. According to the 40 year old
male, these types of customers are the ones that bother him the most, as they buy the
pastries because they have the money to do so. They are said to not have concern or
appreciation for the true taste in his breads, wandering off to another bakery soon after,
and “only when they have reached the age that health is a concern as well as
experience, will they come back,” he says.
On a typical day, both ‘White Brick Oven’ and ‘Tommy le Baker’ have their hours
revolved around the routine of baking. Mr. Mustaffa, the owner of ‘White Brick Oven’
would use the starch prepared the day before in order to make the dough, then leave for
breakfast while the dough is sitting. By 9:00 a.m., the baker would process the dough
further and cut them up for baking so that by 10:00 a.m. to 10:30 a.m., the loaves are

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ready to be delivered or picked up by patrons. In the same manner, Mr. Tommy of
‘Tommy Le’s Baker’ uses the yeast culture that has been prepared the night before, but
prefers to work in at 11:00 a.m., so that he may sleep in the mornings without needing
to entertain his customers. In addition to this dissimilarity, ‘Tommy Le’s Baker’ starts
business at 8:00 a.m., whereas ‘White Brick Oven’ opens at 10:00 a.m.
Regarding the question ‘What is important to start a business?’, the two bakers have
very different views on what it takes to be successful. Mr. Mustaffa advises that the
reason to success, especially as a baker, comes from the engagement of the owners as
well as the society.
“You have to put yourself out there. It’s easy to sit here and make bread, but nobody
will know you, nobody will find you. You have to make sure that people from all over the
country know about you,” the baker says. Moreover, he believes that the society also
has a part to play in the success of a baking business. According to him, “Malaysians

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are terrible at this, and they do not use the internet at all. If you cannot respond in real
time, then forget about it. This is what all small businesses in Malaysia should start
doing. We only use the internet, we never advertise, magazine writers and reporters
come to us, we never approached them, and they found us all because of the internet.
Other than that, businesses in Malaysia should also stop cutting out customers of
different ethnics.”
Conversely, Mr. Tommy full-heartedly believes that the success of a business is
rooted in the person himself, not the society. The 40 year old baker states that “a
business person should always stay firm with the fundamentals of his business and not
change it. If you always follow the trend, your focus will lose ground, which is when you
would be brought away by the waves of competition”. In addition to his passionate
words, Mr. Tommy agrees that a strong foundation like his, where he does what he
does and likes what he does, has rid himself of the pressure of competition, hence

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allowing his bakery to prosper.
The motives behind the two bakeries are also stemmed from similar reasons. The
only difference is that while both businesses started out as a hobby, ‘Tommy le Baker’
grew from Mr. Tommy’s continuous interest in the perfection of the fermentation process
in baking, whereas Mr. Mustaffa did not have this interest, but was more concerned in
the healthiness of his goods for the well-being of his customers.
In our study, we also looked into what future plans the bakeries had in mind, and was
enlightened with the difference of their answers. Mr. Mustaffa of ‘White Brick Oven’
revealed his plan to retire in the following year, mentioning that his bakery will be left as
a bread museum, where it might be used in the future for teaching. As his children are
all back in England, the 70-year old male did not have any family members who are
able to take over his business. His attempts on giving away his bakery were not
successful either as “nobody wants it.” He mentioned that he had offered the business
several times, where anyone interested in it was free to “come here, look at the place,
use anything they like and start running a business, just pay for the electricity and that’s
all, but no one was interested, so we gave up and don’t offer that anymore.”

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When asked why he thought so, Mr. Mustaffa replied that “The location is the
problem. There was this Chinese couple who would actually love to come here, but we
weren’t sure if they would feel very comfortable living here”. Following his statement, we
questioned as to if there were any plans to shift his location in order to resolve this
problem, but Mr. Mustaffa fondly stated that he didn’t as he and his wife were happy to
live here.
“We built this place, we owe nothing, and I’m already 70 years old. You don’t want to
go out renting things and buying things at this age,” mentioned the baker.
On the other hand, Mr. Tommy replied that he refused to think of any future plans for
his bakery. This, according to him, was because he “never plans. I only decide.
Whatever I want to do, I do it now, I complete it now. Every second is now, every minute
is now. I do not plan, because to me, planning is setting in a lot of fears to myself. It is
setting in a lot of steps to prepare for the things that I may or may not have the

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confidence to do.” When asked as to why this is, the baker replied that he wants “to
eliminate all of this from my (his) mind. I did not even to plan to be a baker, yet here I
am”
One of our questions we also asked the two bakery owners was about the
competitors they faced in their field. Mr. Mustaffa answered that he doesn’t have any
competition at all as his location is in “the middle of nowhere”. When asked with if he
knew about ‘Tommy le Baker’, the English man replied that he knew of it, and in his
opinion, Tommy could be considered the most well-known artisan baker in the country,
as he believed that “Tommy stands out because he can manage a business in this
market, afford to hire staff, whereas I can’t find any labor, and use the skill he acquired
as a professionally trained baker when he studied in Paris. His location makes things
good for him, but I wouldn’t consider him my enemy, since we’re so far apart from one
another.”

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On the same note, Mr. Tommy was also aware of ‘White Brick Oven’, claiming to
know about Mr. Mustaffa and his wife, Mardia, quite well since the time of his corporate
employment. However, Mr. Tommy also does not consider Mr. Mustaffa an enemy, as
they agree that their fields are in different focuses. The two bakers mutually feel that
their techniques and approaches in baking bread have led them away from one another.
“I feel that Mustaffa and Mardia’s way of baking is very painful and very archaic. It is a
research of its purism. For me, I do not go for that sort of direction, instead, I go for
fermentation.” said Mr. Tommy.
“I’m not saying we’re competitive, we’re not enemies either. I know Tommy quite well,
and he is very proud of his fermentation process but he doesn’t use organic ingredients
like I do. He’s also out there on Jalan Ipoh and I’m stuck out here, so there’s no real
competition” comments Mr. Mustaffa.
Another difference in their opinions is that while Mr. Mustaffa feels that the reason for
his lack of competition is because of the lack of involvement in his focus of organic
products in general, Mr. Tommy feels that there definitely are other competitors out
there, just that there isn’t any other baker which puts as much effort, dedication and

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interest in developing bread like his. To quote: “Until a day comes that another baker
puts as much effort in making bread and the fermentation process as I, there isn’t a
threat.”
In a similar sense, both bakeries also have a common competitive strategy, which is
to continue on in their respective fields. There is a minimum use of advertising, as they
both seem to be contented with the flow of their patrons and do not believe that there is
a need to seek out extra advertising other than the maintenance of their websites.

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Similarity & Dissimilarity Table
Question
White Brick Oven
(Mr. Mustaffa)
Tommy le Baker
(Mr. Tommy)
Name of Founder Mr. Mustaffa Mr. Tommy
Age 70 40
Weight & Height Unknown 75 KG, 175 cm
Career Baker Baker
Hobbies Baking & Camping Baking & Running
Brief Biography
Born in England, worked in
oil, gas & IT industry
before becoming a baker.
In the 1960’s, worked in
parts of Thailand &
Northern Malaysia before
migrating to Malaysia
permanently 20 years ago
with his wife – Mardia.
Studied linguistics in 1999,
but decided to study
baking in a vocational
institute in Paris due to job
inflation. Worked in cafes
and hotels, eventually
started a bakery of his
own.
Who Influenced You
In Baking?
Grandmother Nobody in specific
Bakery Name White Brick Oven Tommy le Baker
Bakery Address
Jalan Gajah 14, Kampung
Kubu Gajah, 47000m
Sungai Buloh, Selangor,
Malaysia
Viva Residency, Jalan
Ipoh, 3rd Mile Jalan Ipoh,
Kuala Lumpur, Wilayah
Persekutuan
Branches No Other Branches No Other Branches

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Number of
Employees
1 4-5
Main Products &
Services Sold
Organic Bread, Scones,
Tea, Cakes, Pastries, a
Sunday Café, Bread
Designing
Special Bread, Pastries of
all kinds
Number of
Customers
(Daily/Monthly)
40-50 orders monthly
70 transactions (weekday)
100+ transactions
(weekend)
Who are your
customers?
- Random people
from all over the
country
- Cancer patients
- Pregnant women
- Elderly
- JustLife
- Jason’s Home
Foods (Bangsar
Shopping Centre)
- “All Walks of Life”
- 85% - 90%:
Random people
who appreciate his
bread
- 10% - 15%:
Random people
who don’t
appreciate his bread
When did your
bakery open/start?
In the year 2010 October-November 2010
Motives of starting a
bakery
No real motive:
Personal hobby evolved to
business
No real motive:
Personal interest evolved
to business
What’s unique
about your product?
All organic ingredients
used
Special fermentation
process

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What’s a typical day
in your bakery like?
Revolved around baking Revolved around baking
Opinion on
important factors to
start a business
Exposure to the world
Strong foundation and
uniqueness
Problems faced in
your business
Labor, Bad Location, Poor
Market
Personal Struggles
How do you obtain
your equipment?
Imported from Overseas Locally obtained
Is it hard to obtain
supplies
No – imported or sourced
locally
No – sourced within a
radius of shop location
How much was it to
start your business?
A little over RM 3000
(excluding location) +
yearly prices
Starting RM 100,000 +
yearly prices
Future plans and
development
Retirement, Bread
Museum, “Real Bread
Organization”
No Plans
Opinion on
competition in
geographical region
No competition
Got competition – but none
that is concerning
Opinion on one
another
“Tommy stands out
because he can manage a
business in this market,
afford to hire staff,
whereas I can’t find any
labor, and use the skill he
“I feel that Mustaffa and
Mardia’s way of baking is
very painful and very
archaic. It is a research of
its purism. For me, I do not
go for that sort of direction,

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acquired as a
professionally trained
baker when he studied in
Paris. His location makes
things good for him, but I
wouldn’t consider him my
enemy, since we’re so far
apart from one another”
instead, I go for
fermentation”
Competitive
Strategy
No strategy, minimum
advertisement
No strategy, focus on what
he enjoys, minimum
advertisement
How much money
do you make?
Not specified
RM 1000 – RM 2000
(weekdays)
RM 4000 – RM 5000
(weekends)
How do you price
your products?
Depends on the
complexity of the
ingredients used
Not specified
What is the purpose
of your café?
To interact with customers No café available

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Recommendations
- White Brick Oven:
As the main problem for White Brick Oven Bakery isn't the competition so much as the
lack of customers, we suggest that Mr. Mustaffa consider two options to solve this. The
first issue is that there is a lack of customers due to the bad location. This can be solved
by shifting a more well-known and populated area which can enhance the appeal of his
products. By doing so, the interest in his organic bread will go up, thus giving him more
customers.
The second problem is that with Mr. Mustaffa retiring next year, the White Brick Oven is
bound to be shut down. In order to avoid this and to keep business running, Mr.
Mustaffa can rent out the bakery as a workshop to students or apprentices who are
studying culinary arts and pursuing patisserie. We predict that students who are in this
field of study would be much more interested in renting out the bakery so that they could
use the kitchen as a place to experiment and practice their skills. Mr. Mustaffa can also
engage in teaching the students on his knowledge of making organic pastries without
needing to force any manual labor after retirement.
- Tommy Le Baker:
After reading learning more about Tommy Le Baker, we feel as if there are not as many
problems in it compared to White Brick Oven's, but can be still be improved. As of now,
the bakery itself is doing very well, but because of Mr. Tommy not having any plans on
expanding, it limits the potential of the brand, especially since it seems that the taste of
his bread makes the bakery itself quite well known. The potential for this bakery to grow
is strong, so we recommend that Tommy Le Baker consider expanding into another
branch - one that could be located in another area that will cater to customers who are
unable to visit the sole outlet at the moment.

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Appendices
Interview Notes for ‘Tommy le Baker
Interviewee : Mr. Tommy
- Baker and founder of Tommy le Baker
- 03-4043 2546
- Viva Residency, Jalan Ipoh, 3rd Mile Jalan Ipoh, Kuala Lumpur,
Wilayah Persekutuan, Kuala Lumpur
- Age: 40
1. Can you introduce yourself?
My name is Tommy, my real name is also Tommy. I’m a professionally-trained baker.
40 years old. 75kg. 175cm tall. My hobby is baking. I love to run, sometimes when I get
exhausted I would go run and exercise. I started baking at the age of 27. I was basically
not trained at the early part. I did a conversion because I was studying linguistics at that
time. I graduated in 1999, and it was difficult to find a job due to the inflation at that time.
I was a young man and I was academically sound, so I knew I needed to pick up a
special skill to make money, so I decided to take up baking at a vocational institution in
France.
2. How did Tommy le Baker come about?
I started up my bakery in 2010, it was officially opened in November,it was registered
one month before in October 2010. At that time I was baking alone here in this little
shop, and I was basically baking very simple staple, plain bread and some tarts. My
main focus is on the fermentation value of bread. I was so engrossed in the
fermentation of bread, I was experimented on the painting of bread, meaning the
coating of color on bread when it is being baked. I was totally fascinated by the process
of fermentation. That’s how I started my business.
3. Do you have any other branches? If yes, how many? If no, do you plan to expand
your business?
No, I do not have any other branches. And no, I never plan, and I’m still living the day-
by-day life of my business and my life. I have decided to become a baker, and it’s a
moment where my bakery still needs me to be a baker. If I were to sit back and relax, it
would be the day when my bakery does not need me to bake, and when someone else
can take the baking responsibility fully, and by then maybe I would consider switching
my role to become a business development person. I am a person who looks into my
roles very well, and I do not like to multitask. I am a person who has to be focused. I
want to be fair to myself, and not to do everything by myself by choosing a role, and
right now, it’s to be a baker and not a business developer yet.
4. Who influenced you in baking?
I was not influenced by anybody. After I graduated, I was working for cafes and hotels
and ended up working in a place where they make pastries and cakes. At that time I did
not know that I was to become a baker, but I do know that the environment is an
environment that I like. I feel like I have no pressure, I felt like I could just dance in the
environment, and felt very free and easy, so that for me is very important. The reason I

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took up baking was because I know how to cook very well, so damn well, but, I did not
know how to bake, it is an instrument I did not know how to use. So, that is why I
decided to take up baking.
5. Who are your customers?
My customers come from all walks of life. I have two types of customers. The first type
of customers, which is over about 85-90% are customers who need this kind of bread
for the value of taste, and they need this kind of bread to fulfill their personal
satisfaction. The other type of customer, which is not much, is called the I-want-to-have-
a-piece-of-tommy-le-baker-sandwich customer. So this kind of customers, they would
come and try our bread, and say that they have, and they would not visit us again. And
yet I know that every time they come or the first time they try our bread, the taste and
texture of our bread would register in their minds, although it’s not personal to them yet
but I believe the relationship between my bread and the customer would grow, because
this kind of fermentation value really does register into your senses of taste.
6. On average, how many customers do you get in a day?
I don’t know, but a rough estimation, based on the number of sales that I type into my
cash register would be around 70 transactions a day, weekends will shoot up to over
100.
7. What’s so different about their bread compared to other types of bread?
It is different in terms of the mastication value and the very pronounced flavor of my
bread. It is made with very simple ingredients, flour, water, salt and the ferment. That’s
all. I do not introduced egg or other ingredients to change the content, and with this
simplicity in ingredients, I was able to culture and harness different tastes in bread and
also in terms of texture. This difference is only well identified not by the visual effect of
the bread, but mainly harvested by the people who know the value of taste. So when u
know bread, and culture of bread, you will know the difference.
8. Could you describe your typical day?
It’s to wake up, and then come to the bakery and start to divide my dough and use the
culture that I have already prepared a day before to make new bread, basically feed the
whole cycle. Usually it will start from 11am. I used to start a bit later, at around 5pm, but
I like to work now because I can sleep in the mornings and no one would disturb me. I
also would not have to bake and entertain my customers at the same time. This is
because due to the quantity of bread we are currently baking, it is best that we allocate
a time to concentrate on baking and not open the shop at that period of time, and re-
open the shop at 8am to sell our products.
9. What’s the most important thing about starting a business to you?
A business person should always stay firm with the fundamentals of his business and
do not change. If we always follow the trend, your focus would lose ground, which is
when you would be brought away by the waves of competition. But if you stand firm to
your foundation, like me, I am out of the competition. I stick with what I do and what I
like to do. And that’s it.

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10.What are the problems faced in your business?
I do have personal struggles. It is when I have to hand over my babies(my dough) to
someone else that doesn’t truly understand the nature of the development of the dough.
I would continue to struggle until I am totally assured that the baker that’s working for
me loves to take care of my babies as well.
11.In that case, do you find it hard to employ staff?
At the size of business I am running with now, no, because most of my staff will come
and find me. Until today, in the four and a half years of my business, I have not yet
needed to advertise or ask people to come and work for me. People who wants to come
and apprentice here are welcomed also. That is why I do not have this problem yet. If
my business is well taken care of by the three or four staff members that I have here
now, I would be a bit more relaxed, like as of now I can have this interview with you
guys, and I would let go and let them manage the shop, because if I am there all the
time, they would feel tense. That is why I have to let go, to respect the people I hire, for
them to decide how they want to run things and do things the way they see is
appropriate.
12.Do you make anything else other than bread?
Initially I only sell bread. But my interest is not into bread-making, but the fermentation,
the process of culturing the ferment to be introduced into the bread-making process,
which is a very old and traditional way of baking. Fortunately, I had to bake bread in
order to turn it into a product to be sold. I wouldn’t say my interest is in baking, but to
cultivate the taste of bread through the process of culturing.
13.Where do you buy your equipment from?
I buy all my equipment here in Malaysia, they are all mostly Malaysian assembled, it’s
not very expensive, but the material they use is not that strong. To start off my business
with equipment like that is quite amazing. And now that I have earned a lot of money,
I’ve traded in all my equipment in exchange for equipment of higher quality.
14.Do you find any problems when buying supplies?
No, my ingredients are all sourced around my bakery. I would never buy any ingredients
or supplies that are too far away or imported. I have a very simple economical mindset,
the places I go to buy my ingredients would have to be near my bakery. I would take my
bakery and I would draw a radius around it, and I told myself, any ingredients I have to
get outside of that radius, forget it, I would not make that product.
15.Do you have any competitors?
If you take this as a bakery point of view, my competitors are definitely there. And as I
mentioned earlier before, that my customers consists of people who actually needs and
wants my bread is almost about 80-90%. This pool of clienteles, I don’t find any threats
in this aspect, because the reason they come to me is because of the taste of my bread.
Until a day when another baker comes and put so much effort in the making of the
bread and into the fermentation of the bread,then there will be a threat.But, the other
10-20% of clienteles who just wants to try my bread, who comes here and never comes

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again, of course! They would come and then they would go to other bakeries and places
afterwards. But to be honest, this is a pool of customers whom I do not like. They only
like to try new stuff because they have the money to pay for it. However, once they start
to get older, and they would start to settle down, they would look for a place whereby
they can really feel that a certain taste calls for them.
16.Do you know White Brick Oven? What do you think of their approach in bread-
making?
Oh yes, I know them very well, I knew them when I was working in the corporate world. I
feel that their way of baking is very painful, very archaic, it is a research in terms of
purism. They import and mill their own grains and flour. For me, I do not go for that sort
of direction, instead I go for fermentation. Anything that nature can break down, the
complexity of this thing called flour and water, simply fascinates me. Unlike Mr. Mustaffa
and Ms. Mardia, who imports their grain from Austria, stores it nicely in a cold room etc.,
I do not wish to care for all these nick-nacks, before looking into what I truly love to do,
which is fermentation. He is looking into very organic products, some sort away from
civilization. I on the other hand, am very modern. I cannot eat something that is too
ancient, I want something that fits into my life, which I can eat again and again and feel
welcomed by the taste.
17.How much did you need to start your business?
Initially when I started my business, I do not know how much I needed. I started off with
this pool of money, which was about less than RM100, 000, I didn’t know if it was
enough. I had no idea how much it costs to tile a floor, the furniture and fixtures, I had
no idea! All I did was call around and ask around to get to know the prices and pay
accordingly. That is why I didn’t really start of my business with a lot of consideration in
terms of money. What gave me the courage and confidence to start up my business is
because in my mind, I imagine that I only need three things to run this, because I’m
making bread, all I need is an oven, a mixer to mix my dough, and a table, in this space.
These are the basic fundamentals that I need, so with this optimistic thinking I do think
this business is achievable and I went for it.
18.How much money do you earn a day?
On average, weekdays, would be around RM1000-2000. Sales would be more during
weekends, around RM4000-5000.
19.Do you have any plans for Tommy le Baker in the future?
Please bear this in mind, I do not plan. I never plan. I only decide. Decide my life to live
until maybe tonight. Whatever I want to do, I do it now, I complete it now. Because
planning to me is not feasible. Every second is now, every minute is now. I do not plan,
because to me, planning is setting in a lot of fears to myself, planning is setting in a lot
steps to prepare for the things that I may not know or I may not have the confidence to
do. I want to eliminate all of this from my mind. And after a long day, I go to sleep and if
I still wake up in the morning, I am grateful, and I repeat, NOW. I did not even plan to be
a baker, and yet, here I am.

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Interview notes for ‘White Brick Oven’
Interviewee : Mr. Mustaffa
- Baker and owner of White Brick Oven
- 011-11062368
- Jalan Gajah 14, Kampung Kubu Gajah, 47000 Sungai Buloh, Selangor.
- Age: 70
1. Can you introduce yourself?
Born in England, worked in oil and gas industry. In the 60s worked in parts around
Thailand and North Malaysia. Been camping most of my life, in desserts, jungles etc.
Worked in IT before with my wife. 12 years ago, we were still in England. My wife and I
decided to move to Malaysia to settle down for retirement.
2. How did White Brick Oven come about?
At first, I only started baking bread for myself, all because I couldn’t stand the bread
here in Malaysia. Relatives and friends started to like my bread, and slowly more and
more people developed the same liking. (Doesn’t consider WBO to be a business, it’s
just a home hobby that grew and expanded. They only make bread in small amount.
They do not go out selling bread, people comes to their place and ask for their bread!
They do not do any advertising at all, except for their website and blog.) We are now
part of an organization called Real Bread Campaign. We also taught a lot of people how
to bake.
3. Do you ever plan on expanding your business?
I don’t consider us being a business, I only know Tommy le Baker being a successful
artisan baker who also runs it as a business. It’s because you see, this kind of bread is
a very small market, and if I were to hire a shop, it wouldn’t even last a month, it’s just
not possible. Tommy le Baker, he does, because he was a trained baker in Paris and he
has a staff of two or three, and fortunately has a good location. He makes fermented
bread, not organic bread like mine, so my cost in bread-making is much higher
compared to his, about four times the price. He also does other pastries and
sandwiches, that’s where he makes his money. That’s why we only choose to open a
small cafeteria here in this rural area, which only opens on Sundays, 3pm-6pm.
4. Who influenced you in baking?
I have been baking all my life, my grandmother was the one who taught me.
5. Who are your customers?
-Surprisingly, nobody in this village (Sungai Buloh) buys bread from us, at all. They just
figured it’s too expensive? My customers come from all over the country, mainly,
Penang, Sabah, Johor, even Sarawak (a guy flew from Sarawak and came here then he
went back again).
-People with cancer or with special needs (eg. Pregnant women etc.) who needs the
bread for its nutritional purposes (organic! They are very particular in what they put into
their bread, no chemical or additives were added at all – flour, water, salt and yeast)

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-Special orders (they make bread in small amount) from all over the country.
-We also supply our bread to a few places, mainly Justlife, which promotes organic
products, and Jasons Food Hall at Bangsar Shopping Centre. However not all the bread
in Jasons are supplied by us, just a small portion of their product, although they put our
name they over all of them.
6. What’s so different about their bread compared to other types of bread?
Processed bread contains up to about hundred different additives, and we don’t want
people who buy their bread to eat that.
7. Could you describe your typical day?
Well, on baking day, I’ll probably go out and buy some supplies. As far as the bread is
concerned, we would start with the starch, and I’ll probably do that around 3-5pm.
Then, it will sit overnight, 3am tomorrow morning, I would come back and start making
bread dough, which would take me about two hours. Then, I would go away for
breakfast after an hour and a half for breakfast, then I would process the dough further
till 9am, which we will start cutting up the bread, and finally bake it. Then around 10-
10.30am we would be ready to deliver it. Fortunately, my brother-in-law goes out and he
would deliver it for me, some customers would come here to collect their orders.
8. What’s the most important thing about starting a business to you?
You have to put yourself out there to the world. It’s easy to sit here and make bread, but
nobody will know you, nobody will find you. You have to make sure people all over the
country know about you, in fact, Malaysians are terrible at this, and they do not use the
internet at all. If you cannot respond in real time, forget about it. This is what all of the
small businesses in Malaysia should start doing. We only use the internet, we never
advertise, magazine writers and reporters come to us, we never approached them, and
they found us all because we were on the internet.Other than that, businesses in
Malaysia should also stop cutting out customers of different ethnics especially in
Malaysia.
9. What are the problems faced in your business?
Labor. That is a big problem. We cannot get any labor, we have no staff. So we don’t
bother, we only do what I can do. So we only make against orders, we don’t make
anything on speculations, except on Sundays, when we would open a café.
10.Can you tell us more about your Sunday café and what made you decide to start
this cafe?
We open our café right outside, where people from all over the country would come. We
specialize on scones and tea. It only opens for 3 hours, 3pm-6pm. What happened was,
we had so many visitors coming around, and they all came at really odd times. I really
couldn’t spend the time to chat with each one of them individually so I decided that they
could only come on Sundays to look around, and have some scones and tea. And it
worked!

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11.Do you make anything else other than bread and scones?
Yes, we do cakes, biscuits, we also design stuff for other people, working to design
some bread for them, actually to make themselves, people that want to set up bakeries
of their own. I prefer doing that than making bread.
12.How do you price your products?
Traditionally, bakers normally would charge around three times their ingredients. When I
was 20, I started my first business in Egypt. I read somewhere saying: “Do not think
about money. Just do the best that you can, and the money will follow.” I’ve always
done that. Over the years, I’ve done quite well. One of the things I don’t do, is
accounting. Ever. Because I think once you do that, you will lose track of what you’re
doing and you’ll concentrate on trying to save money and to make more profit to
everything you do, and that’s not a good idea. Whatever you price your product, it really
doesn’t make a lot of difference, somebody would buy it. Some of my bread is RM12,
some of them is RM25, it really depends.
13.Where do you buy your equipment from?
I bought all my equipment from overseas, because I’ve given up wasting my time in
looking for equipment around Malaysia any more. Even if they have a website, they
haven’t use it since the day they set it up, they never read their emails. Online
purchases from places out of the country are much more efficient and easy. They
should monitor this!
14.Do you find any problems when buying supplies?
No, everything is available here. All the organic ingredients are easily found here. We
get them from wholesalers.
15.You mentioned about Tommy le Baker earlier, do you see him as a threat?
Yes, he does the same kind of bread that we do, which is called sourdough, which takes
a long fermentation process and Tommy is very proud of his long fermentation, except
he doesn’t use organic flour, he uses local flour. Well, I’m not saying that we’re
competitive, we’re not enemies, I know Tommy quite well. He’s way over there in Jalan
Ipoh, and I’m stuck out here. So there’s no real competition.
16.How much did you need to start this small hobby of yours?
Well, nothing really, well, we had an oven, my wife used to make kuih lapis, she won’t
now because it’s so unhealthy. But we used that oven to bake the first loaves of bread,
but to sort of answer your question, we were living right next door, my mother-in-law’s
house, and the guy that owned this land wanted to sell it, and we were able to buy this
land. It was just a warehouse, and we used all second-hand equipment. Mixers you can
get it for RM700-800. So, basically, you can just start a small business with about
RM3000. Over the years, we spent A LOT. But we just balance it out with the profit that
we made.

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17.Do you have any plans for White Brick Oven in the future?
Well, I’m actually going to retire next year, and I guess this place would sort of be left as
a bread museum. We’ll probably use it for teaching, so this place would be used at
some point. My children are all in England having their own business so they can’t come
over to handle it. We actually tried to give this place away, about two or three times, but
nobody wants it. We actually said to people: “Yes, you can come here, look at the place
and use anything you like, and start running a business, just pay for the electricity and
that’s all.” But no one wants it, so, we gave up and we don’t offer that anymore. The
location is the problem. There was this Chinese couple who love actually love to come
here, but we weren’t sure if they would feel very comfortable living here.
18.Have you ever considered moving out to a bigger and better location?
No. We’re quite happy living here. We built this place, we owe nothing, and I’m already
70. You don’t want to go out renting things and buying things at this age.

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Attachments

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Reference & Bibliography
(In APA Citation format)
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