Early Elgin stem wind watches, 1865-1878

Early Elgin stem wind
watches, 1865-1878
Luis Casillas
NAWCC Chapter 94 (De Anza)
April 13, 2014

What I’m going to talk about
• I’ve been trying to understand what were the earliest stem wind
watches that Elgin made.
• Sources I’ve used:
• Observation of actual watches (in person, and various online
sources like eBay photos).
• Contemporaneous printed materials, from 1867 to about
1892.
• Patents granted to Elgin employees and close associates.
• Later articles and books about Elgin and watches in general.

Refresher: Elgin National
Watch Company (1865-1964)
• Founded in 1865, in Elgin, Illinois.
• First watches in April 1867.
• The second largest American watch company in
the 1867-1878 period (after Waltham).
• Surpassed Waltham in the 20th century.

Refresher: early Elgin “named” watches
From 1874 Elgin Almanac. Not all models shown.

No crown
Setting
square
Elgin H.Z. Culver!
#170,233 (c. 1873)
• The watch does’t have a
crown to wind and set it.
• Instead, you use a
watch key (like a clock
key) to turn the winding
and setting posts.
• This is how most
watches worked until
the 1880s.
Refresher:!
key wind/key set!
(a.k.a “KWKS”)

Winding
square
Elgin H.Z. Culver!
Key wind/key set!
#170,233 (c. 1873)

Elgin Mat. Laﬂin!
Stem wind!
Lever set (sliding)!
#255,344, c. 1875/76
No setting
square
Setting
lever
Crown

Early American stemwind watches
still had winding squares. (A.k.a.
“transitional” watches.)
Winding
square

Common acronyms
KW
Key Wind
(implies Key Set)
KS
Key Set
(implies Key Wind)
SW
Stem Wind
(implies not Key Set)
LS
Lever Set
(implies Stem Wind)
PS
Pendant Set
(implies Stem Wind)
• You’ll see these in the
Price Guide, articles,
books, web forums, eBay
auctions, etc.
• There’s also combination
acronyms like KWKS,
SWLS, etc.
• As we will see, “implies”
here is not strict—some
watches have uncommon
combinations, like SWKS.

“Keyless works”
• The mechanism that allows a watch to be wound and
set without a key is called the keyless works.
• There are two classic designs:
• The rocking bar (Antoine LeCoultre, c. 1847)
• The shifting sleeve (Adrien Philippe, c. 1843)
• Used in all contemporary watches.
• But we won’t show examples in this talk.

Confounding factor:
Stemwind conversions
• Third party kits were made in the 1880s to
convert KWKS watches into SWLS.
• Most common: Abbott’s Stem Wind, more than
50,000 sold (2012 Price Guide)
• Some “early stem wind” watches are in fact this:
early key wind/key set watches, later converted.

Abbott’s Stem Wind Conversion
IO
UNITED STATES PATENT @rrrcee
HENRY ABBOTT, OF NEWARK, NEW JERSEY.
STEM-WINDING WATCH.
SPECIFICATION forming part of Letters Patent No. 236,748, dated January 18, 1881.
Application ?led July 14, 1880. (ModeL)
To all whom it may concern.
Be it known that I, HENRY ABBOTT, a citi
zen of the United States, residing at Newark,
in the county of Essex and State of New Jer
sey, have invented a new and useful Stem
Winding Device for W’atches, of which the
following is a speci?cation, reference being
had to the accompanying drawings.
The object of my invention is to effect an
arrangement that will facilitate the changing
of key-winding watches into stem-winders.
The main feature of my improvement con
sists in the construction ofa stem-winding de
vice, in which all of the parts are ?tted to a
piece of metal entirely separate and distinct
from the watch, in such a manner that it may
be attached to or detached from the watch as
a whole without disarranging the parts.
ing watches, except that it is made in a pecu
liar shape to accommodate the action of the
yoke O, as will be hereinafter more fully
shown.
C is a rocking bar or yoke, which is pivoted
on a shoulder of the screw D, and carries on
its under side the crown-wheel R, (which is
also pivoted on the screw D,) and the two ?at
wheels T and U. _
S is the stem, made in the usual manner,
passing through the case, having a crown on
its outer end and a square on its inner end,
which ?ts in the square hole through the pin
ion O, as shown at O’.
P is a- bridge, fastened to the plate A by the
screws 6 6, under which the pinion 0 turns,
and against the side of which the pinion O
?nds a bearing for its shoulder. The beveled
55
65

Elgin B.W. Raymond!
#35,520 (c. 1869-70)!
Originally KWKS!
Abbott’s stem wind
conversion (1880s)
deL)
H. ABBOTT.
Stem Winding Watch.
. 236,748. Patented Jan. 18, 1881.
Diagram from Abbott’s patent
Rocking bar
Excellent example of
a rocking bar design.
Winding mode

Elgin B.W. Raymond!
#35,520 (c. 1869-70)!
Originally KWKS!
Abbott’s stem wind
conversion (1880s)
deL)
H. ABBOTT.
Stem Winding Watch.
. 236,748. Patented Jan. 18, 1881.
Diagram from Abbott’s patent
Rocking bar
Setting mode
Excellent example of
a rocking bar design.

Early American stem winds
• A handful of American watch factories made stem
winding watches in the 1860s:
• 1865: United States Watch Co. (Marion, NJ)
• 1867: Newark Watch Co. (Newark, NJ)
• 1868: American Watch Co. (Waltham, MA)
• 1870: E. Howard & Co. (Boston, MA)
• c. 1870: New York Watch Co. (Springﬁeld, MA)

Early American stemwinds
• 1860s American stem wind watches seem to have been plagued
with mechanical problems.
• Marion patented one design in 1865, and then abandoned it
quickly for a new one in 1868, which still had problems.
• Waltham added ﬁrst stem wind and later lever set to their
Model 57 watch starting from 1871, but it wasn’t very reliable
and had to be redesigned for the Model 83 (Price, 2005).
• NY Watch: “Work was begun making stem winding watches,
but only about 100 were completed when defects were found
in them and their manufacture was stopped ad as many as
possible were recalled.” (Stephens, 1951)

Was Elgin more conservative?
“The Elgin company, a contemporary organization [to the
US Watch Company of Marion, NJ], succeeded by being
satisﬁed to concentrate its efforts in early years on a few
good key wind models and refused to introduce stem
winding until 1874. They were content to let pioneers like
Frederick Giles get ‘the bugs’ worked out of this new
invention while they observed. But, Elgin was one of the
ﬁrst to introduce price reductions to match the demands
of a more conservative market environment.”
— Muir & Kraus, Marion, p. 199

Frederick’s 1868 patent
UNITED'` STATES "ÍPATnNT Ormes., ,_
MAnsiiALnN'. il‘asijnnieiï, oFQELeiN, ILLiNoi's, îAfssidNonrro masser '
» AND enAnnns'siuosEnnY, or-_sAivinrLAea . -»
'IMPROVEMENT iN'wATei-nàsgfÍ> Í `
Specification forming part of‘Letters Patent No. 79,9Iìill, datcdululyïílli,
Be it known that I, MARSHALL'> N. »FREDJ
Eurex, of Elgin, in the Acounty et' Kane and
State of Illinois7 have invented'a new and use
t’ul Improvement _in Watches; and I do hereby
declare that the following is a full, clear,- and
exact description et' the. same, refereneebeing
had to the accompanying drawings and the
letters and figures marked thereon, which form l
a part- ot‘ this specitication, and in which--l
Fw'ure 1 re nesents a. to i or »lan view of mD .
g improved watch with the dial removed», Fig.
2, a vertical section taken at the line y in Fig.
1. Fig. 3 represents a plan view of the spur
wheel which the stem-key turns and the box
containing the same; Fig. 4, a sectional; the
line w -in Fig. l, and Fig. 5 an invertcd‘view ol“
the vibrating bar E with the double wheel K.
The nature of my invention .consists in a
thestein-.key the drive-wheel A. There
is a female-"screw in the top of the stud or post
B, and-also aslight projection, which extends
l'up intothe vibrating Abar E, and the said vi
-brating bar vibrateson .this projection and the
4screw F, whichfpasses through the 4vibrating
bar and .screws inte-the top of the stud or pest
15.2' AThe stud enpostlß vis -held and 'raised and
lowered, so as to tighten .er loosen the drive#
wheel A, >by means ofthe screw T, the e'nd of
which is so shaped _thatwhen it is screwedinto
the stud B it draws it_.down and tightens the
wheel A. ' There are -two auxiliary wheels, J
and K, arranged beneath the vibrating bar E,
which turn on spindles b,extending down from
the under side of said bar, and, being a part
ot' it, are thereh),v made firmer and less liable to
get out of repair than separate pieces attached
to the bar, as spindles would be. These wheels`
'IMPROVEMENT iN'wATei-nàsgfÍ> Í
Specification forming part of‘Letters Patent No. 79,9Iìill, datcdululyïílli,
Be it known that I, MARSHALL'> N. »FREDJ
Eurex, of Elgin, in the Acounty et' Kane and
State of Illinois7 have invented'a new and use
t’ul Improvement _in Watches; and I do hereby
declare that the following is a full, clear,- and
exact description et' the. same, refereneebeing
had to the accompanying drawings and the
letters and figures marked thereon, which form l
a part- ot‘ this specitication, and in which--l
Fw'ure 1 re nesents a. to i or »lan view of mD .
g improved watch with the dial removed», Fig.
2, a vertical section taken at the line y in Fig.
1. Fig. 3 represents a plan view of the spur
wheel which the stem-key turns and the box
containing the same; Fig. 4, a sectional; the
line w -in Fig. l, and Fig. 5 an invertcd‘view ol“
the vibrating bar E with the double wheel K.
The nature of my invention .consists in a
novel device for winding watches and turning
their hands by means ot' stem-keys, las herein~
after described. ' f' .
The same letters of reference represent the
corresponding parts in the diti‘erent íigures.
¢ To 'enable those skilled in the art to manu
faeture'and use my invention, I will proceed to
describe the same with particularity.
A represents a drive-wheel with teeth or cogs
upon its edge, and also extending down from
its under side, as shown at a` in Fig. 2. This
wheel is held in position vby the stud or post
thestein-.key the drive-
is a female-"screw in the top of
B, and-also aslight projection
l'up intothe vibrating Abar E, a
-brating bar vibrateson .this pr
4screw F, whichfpasses throug
bar and .screws inte-the top of
15.2' AThe stud enpostlß vis -held
lowered, so as to tighten .er lo
wheel A, >by means ofthe scr
which is so shaped _thatwhen i
the stud B it draws it_.down a
wheel A. ' There are -two aux
and K, arranged beneath the
which turn on spindles b,exten
the under side of said bar, an
ot' it, are thereh),v made firmer a
get out of repair than separate
to the bar, as spindles would be
gear to the drive-wheel A, a
gears to the wheel L, which is
wheel placed upon the iiiainsp
the wheel K,-whieh is a doubl
clearly'shown in Fig.- 5, gear
.liner set of cogs to the wheel
the hand-posti’. 'l‘he plate
the plate U and extends out o
and forms a bearing for one e
spring-arbor, while at the sam
`over one _end et' the vibratin
is a spring, S, which presses ag
Actually, Elgin may have tried to make a
stem winding watch right from the beginning!

Frederick’s 1868 patent
M. N. FREDERIGK.
WATGH.
No. 79,968. ~ Patented July 14, 1868.
lumai/f1"Z
M. N. FREDERIGK.
WATGH.
No. 79,968. ~ Patented July 14, 1868.
lumai/f1"Z
• I found this rocking bar mechanism
patent just recently (April 2014).
• This was patented just around the
same time as Elgin’s key early
patents:
• 77,078, C.S. Moseley, Apr. 21,
1868. Hairspring stud.
• 95,128, C.S. Moseley, Sep. 21,
1869. Dust band.
• 108,332, D.G. Currier, Oct. 18,
1870. Elgin’s watch plates.
• If any such watches were made, they
were prototypes, and very rare.

Marshall N. Frederick
• http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/FREDERICK/
2008-12/1228355625
• Born c. 1834 in New York; died 1899 in Canton, OH
• Census records:
• 1850: Watchmaker (apprentice?) in Philadelphia
• 1860: Watchmaker in Milford, PA
• 1870: Elgin watch factory employee
• 1880: Jeweler in Stockton, NJ
• 1891-92: Hampden Watch Co., Canton, OH (Canton directories)
• 1896: US Patent 565,161 (Bicycle lock); living in Canton, OH

Elgin’s ﬁrst production stem
winders: June 1873
• This is supported by three sources:
• Accounts from the 1880s (Crossman, Abbott).
• Exhibits later prepared by the company.
• Contemporaneous marketing material (the
Elgin Almanac).

Crossman and Abbott’s books
• Two 1880s accounts say that Elgin delivered its
ﬁrst stem winding watches in June 1873:
• Charles S. Crossman, 1885-1888, The
Complete History of Watch Making in America
• Henry Abbott, 1888, The Watch Factories of
America

Ford Museum Exhibit, 1930
Scans courtesy of Elgin Area Historical Society.

1874 Elgin Almanac
Scans courtesy of Wayne Schlitt.

1874 Elgin Almanac, p. 9
Note: there were no “Gentlemen’s
three-quarter plate” Elgin watches
at the time. Also, Elgin’s ﬁrst stem
winding Ladies’ watch was made
in 1877. This is confusing…

Elgin’s competitors’ early winding
and setting mechanisms sure had
issues, but the marketing copy
here reads like sour grapes.

“Gee, why would you
ever want to set your
own watch?”

H.H. Taylor!
Stem wind/key set!
#155,399, 1873-1874
“National Watch Co.” dial;
the “Elgin” name was
adopted in May 1874
Only made for about a
year; fewer than 650?

H.H. Taylor!
Stem wind/key set!
#155,399, 1873-1874

Stem wind/key set H.H. Taylor!
1873, #155,399
Unusual feature: two of the dial feet
are pinned, one is screwed.

Moseley’s 1875 patent
UNITED STATES
CHARLES S. MOSELEY, OF ELGIN, ILLINOIS, ASSIGNOR OF ONE-TENTH HIS
PATENT OFFIov.
RIGHT TO THE NATIONAL WATCH COMPANY, OF SAME PLACE.
IMPROVEMENT IN STEM-WINDING WATCHES.
Speci?cation forming part of Letters Patent N0. 161,262, dated March 23, 1875; application ?led
April 18, 1874.
To all whom it may concern .
Be it known that I, CHAS. S. MosELEY, of
Elgin, in the county of Kane and in the State
of Illinois, have invented certain new and use:
ful Improvements in Stem-“?nding Attach
ments for Watches ; and do hereby declare
that the following is a full, clear, and exact
description thereof, reference being had to the
accompanying drawings, making a part of
this speci?cation, in which-—
‘ Figure 1 is a plan view of the face side of
set forth. It consists, further, in the con~
struction of the driving-pinion, and its com
bination with the bridge and stem or push-pin,
substantially as and for the purpose herein
after shown and described.
In the annexed drawings, A and A’ repre
sent the sections of a bridge, which have each
ageneral semicircular shape, and are connected
together by means of dowel-pins and screws,
in the usual manner. Within thecontiguous
sides of the sections A and A’ is formed a

Charles Scott Moseley
(1828-1918)
• One of the big names in early American watch factories:
• Joined the Boston Watch Co. (Waltham) in 1854 as a machinist.
• Invented the split chuck for watchmakers’ lathes.
• Went to the Nashua Watch Co. in 1860, along with several other of
Waltham’s key employees.
• Waltham acquired Nashua in 1862 and brought them all back.
• Went to Elgin in 1865, along with a number of Waltham employees,
and became the company’s ﬁrst superintendent (1865-1872?).
• Left Elgin in 1877.

2'Sheets--Sheet1.
C. S. MUSELEY,
Stem-Winding Watches.
* No. 161,262, ‘ Patented March 23.1875.
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WiTNE55E5= ‘ Q ' , INVENTUH
,%7a46%¢ZZZ/Mwr v I z]
,//.)j_ ,cvmawr ,awwf
2 Sheets--Sheet 2.
C. S. MOSELEY.
Stem-Winding Watches.“
No. 161,262, Patented March23,l8.75.
f2_5
um
Wh-NE5 555 = - 10, “WT-7mmI
Q I l “Inna/5A
THE GRAPHIC COJHOTO-LITMSQJ‘M PARK PLAG'I-LNA’.

illlllll
H.H. Taylor!
Stem wind/key set!
#155,399, 1873-1874
Under-dial view and comparison to patent illustration

given to the ?rst will be
gh the second gear, as is
ace of the spur-gear G is
the lower face of which
in Fig. lei, and its pro
to an annular rabbet, g’,
n the contiguous portion
crew, h, passing through
a threaded opening in
crew f’, con?nes the for
forms a pivotal bearing
h it turns. Just within
et g’ an annular groove,
upper face of the gear
are placed two thin ?at
, that are corrugated, so
ce equal to several times
are relatively arranged
elevations of one ring to
depressions in the other
med by the steel rings is
friction connection be
G and the plate H, which
be moved within certain
n of said gear-Wheel.
ide of the plate H, near
ted a spur-pinion, K, that
eceives motion from the
erates as an intermediate
nd a gear-wheel, L, that
end of the winding-arbor
train is reversed.
The gear-wheel L, in addition to the of?ce
described, operates as a ratchet-wheel to the -
winding-arbor, a pawl, 0, being pivoted to
the plate N in such position as to engage with
the teeth of said gear, preventing motion in a
backward direction.
To remove the winding-train, the vibrating
plate or arm should be detached, when the
bridge can be removed from the plate, three
screws only being taken out to effect such re
sult.
The advantages obtained by my mechan
ism are as follows: First, there is no ratchet
connection between the stem and winding
arbor, and when the former is moved back
ward the winding-train is entirely disconnect
ed from said arbor, and revolves noiselessly.
Second, the engagement and displacement of
the winding-train with the winding-arbor are
automatically effected by the usual forward
and back motion of the stem, while the means
employed for effecting such purposes are sim
ple, durable, and less liable to derangement
than those commonly employed. Third, the
construction of the combined spur and miter
gear wheel renders the same more perfect, and
enables it to occupy less space than would
be possible otherwise. Fourth, the construc
tion of the bridge and its combination with
the train and watch-plate enable said train
to be attached to a watch without interfer
ence with or change of the movement; and,

Action of the vibrating arm
(video)

Stem wind/key set H.Z. Culver!
#235,104, 1873
Only made for about a year; fewer than 450?
Photos courtesy of Jones & Horan Auction Team

Was there a stem wind/key
set B.W. Raymond?
• 1874 Almanac: “[The stem winding device] will ﬁrst be
attached to the full plate movements of the Raymond,
Culver, Taylor and Laﬂin grades, and will, later in the
season, be placed in the market upon Gentlemen’s
three-quarter plate and Ladies’ Watches.”
• How reliable is this statement, really?
• There were no “Gentlemen’s three-quarter plate”
watches!
• Ladies’ watches didn’t get stem winding until 1877!

Watch & Clock Bulletin
No. 27 (Feb. 1949), p. 221
Letter from Mr. David H Schantz:
“Mr. Roscoe R. Smith of Elgin National Watch Company
informed that the first stem wind watch was made by
their company in 1873 which was made over on the
B.W. Raymond movement formerly a key wind model.
The first 100,000 serial numbers were assigned from
1870 to 1873 and the first stem wind movement must
have had a serial number close to 100,000 although the
company does not have a record of the exact number.”
Not clear how reliable these statements are either.

Was there a stem wind/key
set B.W. Raymond?
Grade Description
B.W. Raymond
15 jewels, quick train,
straight-line escapement,
patent regulator, adjusted
H.Z. Culver
15 jewels, quick train,
straight-line escapement,
adjusted
H.H. Taylor 15 jewels, adjusted
It seems odd that the
ﬂagship wouldn’t get
the invention, but the
two just below it did!

How many stem wind/key
set Elgins were made?
Grade name
Estimated
production
Candidate
serial numbers
Lowest lever seen
(as of Apr. 2014)
B.W. Raymond
≤ 100
(or zero)
246,501 - 246,600 none so far
H.Z. Culver ≤ 450
155,001 - 155,100
235,001 - 238,000
235,355
H.H. Taylor ≤ 650 155,100 - 160,000 155,743
All made mid 1873 - mid 1874.
Warning: estimates are very speculative.

Setting mechanisms
• Elgin made their ﬁrst lever setting watches in 1874.
• These watches had a “sliding” lever mechanism
that’s very annoying to operate.
• This mechanism was soon modiﬁed for the “pull-
out” type of lever that became standard for
American watches for the rest of their history.
• The exact year is not yet known, but it seems
that it was no later than 1878.

1875 Elgin Almanacnrtdn200004:2Thttp:hdl.hndl.nt202dp.0042088
PblDn,ldtzdhttp:.hthtrt.rpdl
* .
Th L N N T N L T H *****
r n xpr B l n nr n r t t H .
N° d n L n N r .
BR N H FF .
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1875 Elgin Almanac
The previous year they were going on
and on about how Elgin’s watches were
too good for setting mechanisms, but
now they’re going “Mmmm, sweet,
sweet grapes…”
Actually, it doesn’t look like all of the full
plate movements shown in a later page
of this Almanac were made as key
winders.

Hunter’s 1874 patent
UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE.
GEORGE HUNTER, OF ELGIN, ILLINOIS, ASSIGNOR OF ONE-TENTH HIS RIGHT
TO THE NATIONAL WATCH COMPANY, OF SAME PLACE.
y IMPROVEMENT IN HAND-SETTING“> ATTACHMENTS FOR WATCHES.
Specilïcntion forming part of Letters Patent Ne. 152,113, dated June 1G. U74; application filed
March 30, 1874.
To all whom it may concern:
Be it known that I, GEORGE HUNTER, ot’
Elgin, in the county of Kane and in the State
of Illinois, have invented certain new and use
i‘ul Improvements in Hand - Setting Attach
ments for Watches; and do hereby declare
larger diameter, and is serrated or toothed
upon its periphery, as seen in Fig. 4. Within
a recess formed in the plate A, below the dial
wheel E, is placed a ring, F, which, upon its
inner periphery, is provided with teeth or scr
rations f, that correspond to the tooth upon

Hunter’s 1874 patent
G. HUNTER.`
Hand-Setting Attachments for Watchès.
l Patented June t6, 1874.
INvEm-DE. tWITNE55E5=
MQKM@
plan view and a longitudinal section of the
lever employed for throwing the setting at
tachment into engagement, and for locking the
winding-gearin fr.
Letters of like name and kind refer to like
parts in each of the figures.
The object of my invention is to simplify
the construction and increase the eiiiciency ot"
mechanism employed for setting the hands of
a watch through or by means of the stem or
push-pin; and it consists, principally, in an
externally and internally toothed ring sur
rounding the cannon - pinion, and capable of
lateral adjustment, so as to cause its inner
teeth to engage with the same, and its exter
nal teeth to simultaneously mesh with one of
the wheels ot' the winding-train, substantially
as and for the purpose hereinafter specified.
It consists, further, in the construction of
the pivoted lever upon which the toothed
ringisjournaled, and its combination with said
ring, substantially as and for the purpose here
inafter shown.
In the annexed drawing, A represents the
upper plate ot' a watch-movement, vwithin
which are journaled the center-wheel stati' I3,
winding-arbor È, and other portions of an or
dinary train. The cannon-pinion D, placed
upon, and revolving with, the stati' B, is of
usual construction, except that at its lower end
is provided a disk, d, which has a somewhat
largem
a bar,
so as t
iicientl
by exp
the lat
and up
The
in Figs
longit
movin
toothe
out ot'
'Wh
gagem
teethf
spur-g
wheel
arbor
bles s
ings b
seen t
cated
F, wil
and t
As
hand-s
will v
said d
tion o
George Hunter joined Elgin in
1865 (from Waltham), and was
superintendent from 1872 to 1903.
!
His son George E. Hunter was
superintendent from 1903 to 1925.

H.Z. Culver, #236,238
G. HUNTER.`
Hand-Setting Attachments for Watchès.
l Patented June t

H.H. Taylor, #158,372
At some point around
1875-1878, the remaining
stock of slide lever watches
was modiﬁed to pull-out.
!
I haven’t seen any
documentation yet, but I
suspect people back then
found the slide lever as
annoying to use as I’ve
experienced it today.

Slide watch modified to pull-out
1. A new, pull-out lever (A) was designed.
2. An intermediate arm (B) was added to adapt the new pull-out lever to the old setting clutch
(C) and the winding arm (D).
3. The old plates were modified for the new lever. See, e.g., the truncated dial foot hole (E)
4. Some parts were modified. See, e.g, the setting arm spring (F).
C
F
E
D
A
B
C
E
F
D

Pull-out lever, !
winding engaged

Pull-out lever, !
setting engaged

Cannon pinion,!
setting clutch!
and ring wheel

Cannon pinion with
serrated teeth platform

Pull-out lever ≠ pull-out lever
The way the user engages the
setting mechanism doesn’t
determine how it works internally.
!
Many later Elgin (and general
American) pocket watches also
had pull-out levers, but they
didn’t necessarily work like the
one just shown.
!
For example, this c. 1890 watch
(#4,312,434) shows Elgin’s next
iteration of setting mechanism. It
has a pull-out lever, but the
design is entirely different.
!
Elgin only seems to have put this
one into lower-end watches…

The Moseley/Hunter design
was made for ±30 years
• The Moseley/Hunter winding/setting design was
being sold at least as late as 1903. Evidence:
• Watch distributor catalogs
• Elgin parts catalogs

The Moseley/Hunter design and
high-grade hunting watches
• In later years the Moseley/Hunter design was
used exclusively on higher-end, full plate hunting
conﬁguration watches.
• For example, grade 149: nickel, 20 or 21
jewels, hunting, some marked “Father Time.”

Hypothesis #1
• The Moseley/Hunter design survived this long because it was never
cost-effective to replace it within its niche: high grade full-plate
hunting configuration watches.
• Elgin’s later winding/setting designs for full-plate hunting
watches were used in lower grade movements.
• Elgin’s first open face full plate watches (c. 1885) were pendant
set, and thus required a completely different design.
• Only the introduction of Elgin’s open face, lever setting, 17+
jewel railroad watches (c. 1895) justified a new winding/setting
design for high-end full plate watches.
• Full plate watches mostly died out in the 1900s decade.

Hypothesis #2 (silly)
• Gee, they stopped making them just after
George Hunter retired…

Which early watches were
made as stem winders?
Grade name (#)
Stem wind,
key set
Stem wind,
slide lever
Stem wind,
pull-out lever
B.W. Raymond (#70) I don’t know Attested Attested
H.Z. Culver (#61) Attested Attested Attested
H.H. Taylor (#20) Attested Attested Attested
G.M. Wheeler (#63) I don’t think so Attested Counterevidence
Mat. Laﬂin (#68) I don’t think so Attested Counterevidence
M.D. Ogden (#8) I don’t think so Attested Counterevidence

1876 Elgin Almanac
Scan courtesy of Greg Frauenhoff.
This statement appears to be true.
I have seen all six of these named
grades in a slide lever set version.

1892 Otto Young & Co.
Tool and Material Catalogue
• Slide lever watches are “1st Series” and
use the #26 lever.
• Early pull-out (modiﬁed from slide) are
“2d Series” and use the #43 lever.

1892 Otto Young & Co.
Tool and Material Catalogue
There probably was no pull-out lever Laﬂin or Ogden.

Serial number madness
• I’ve said in the past that
people put too much
faith on serial number
date tables.
• Like this one from the
2012 Price Guide.

Serial number madness
• 185,001 (ﬁrst Gail Borden, 1872
Almanac) was made Sep. 1871.
• …but 155,399 and 235,103 (stem wind,
key set) were late 1873 or early 1874 .
• 400,001 (ﬁrst T.M. Avery, 1875
Almanac) was made Aug. 1874.
• …about the same time as the
earliest slide lever watches (e.g,
155,743, 235,355)
• …and before any of the pull-out
lever watches (e.g., 158,372,
237,604).

Bibliography
Abbott, Henry G. 1888. The Watch Factories of America,
Past and Present. A complete history of watchmaking in
America, from 1809 to 1888 inclusive, with sketches of the
lives of celebrated American watchmakers and organizers.
Chicago: Geo. K. Hazlitt & Co.
Alft, E.C. & William Briska. 2003. Elgin Time: A History of
the Elgin National Watch Company, 1864-1968. Elgin, IL:
Elgin Historical Society.
Crossman, Charles S. 1885-1887. The Complete History of
Watch Making in America. Reprinted from the Jeweler’s
Circular and Horological Review. Exeter, NH: Adams Brown
Company.
David, Jacques. 1877. “Report to the Intercantonal
Committee of Jura Industries on the manufacture of watches
in the United States.” Translated and reprinted in Richard
Watkins, 2003, American and Swiss Watchmaking in 1876.
Ehrhardt, Roy. 1976. Elgin Watch Company: Identification
and Price Guide. Kansas City, MO: Heart of America Press.
Elgin National Watch Co. 1915. Net Price List of Materials
Manufactured by the Elgin National Watch Co. Chicago:
The Lakeside Press.
Gilbert, Richard E., Tom Engle and Cooksey Shugart. 2012.
Complete Price Guide to Watches. Mt. Pleasant, SC:
Tinderbox Press.
Goldsmith, Ellsworth H. 1953. “Keyless Watches.” NAWCC
Bulletin, No. 50.
Hoke, Donald Robert. 1991. The Time Museum Historical
Catalogue of American Pocket Watches. Rockford, IL: The
Time Museum.
Muir, William and Bernard Kraus. 1985. Marion: A History of
the United States Watch Company. NAWCC Special
Publication Number 1. Columbia, PA: Mifflin Press.
Otto Young & Co. 1892. Tool and Material Catalogue.
Reprinted in July 1998 by the Mid-West Tool Collectors
Association, Special Publications Committee.
Price, Ron. 2005. Origins of the Waltham Model 57:
Evolution of the First Successful Industrialized Watch.
NAWCC Special Order Supplement no. 7. Columbia, PA:
National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors.
Schlitt, Wayne. 2004. Elgin Watch Collectors Site.
Accessed on April 2014; site lists modification date of
7/24/2004. http://elginwatches.org
Stephens, W. Barclay. 1951. “The New York Watch
Company.” NAWCC Bulletin, No. 37, Feb. 1951.

Early serial numbers blocks
recorded as stem winding
Start serial # Block size
Grade
name
Grade
number
# seen
(Apr. 2014)
155,001 100 H.Z. Culver 61
155,101 4,900 H.H. Taylor 20 7
235,001 3,000 H.Z. Culver 61 6
1. Data from Wayne Schlitt’s Elgin serial number database program, and my own records of watches
(based on eBay listings and other sources).
2. Elgin did not use grade numbers for these watches when they were made. The grade numbers
shown in this table are thus an anachronism; I provide them because online databases use them.

Start serial # Block size Grade name
Grade
number
# seen
(Apr. 2014)
246,501 12 “NWCo.” 70
246,513 88 B.W. Raymond 70
246,601 100 H.Z. Culver 61
246,701 100 H.H. Taylor 20
246,801 100 G.M. Wheeler 63 1

Grade
number
# seen
(Apr. 2014)
255,001 410 Mat. Laflin 68 1
255,411 90 G.M. Wheeler 63
255,501 100 Mat. Laflin 68
255,601 300 G.M. Wheeler 63
255,901 100 Mat. Laflin 68

Grade
number
# seen
(Apr. 2014)
256,001 1,000 G.M. Wheeler 63 3
257,000 1,700 M.D. Ogden 8 1
258,701 300 G.M. Wheeler 63
Larger numbers made after #300,001

Early Elgin stem wind watches, 1865-1878

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Early Elgin stem wind watches, 1865-1878