Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 3 - 9 December 2010

Web Address: http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/pak06278
RealTime Transcriptions
64 10th
Avenue, Highlands North, Johannesburg
P O Box 721, Highlands North, 2037
Tel: 011-440-3647 Fax: 011-440-9119 Cell: 083 273-5335
E-mail: realtime@pixie.co.za
TRANSCRIPTION OF THE
INSOLVENCY INQUIRY
IN TERMS OF SECTION 417, 418 OF THE COMPANIES ACT
INTO THE AFFAIRS OF THE INSOLVENT ESTATE OF
DRS DS GRIEVES BRIDGING SOLUTIONS
(PTY) LIMITED
(IN LIQUIDATION)
MASTERS REFERENCE T0240/10
BEFORE
MS R BEKKER
HELD ON
09 DECEMBER 2010 PAGES 552 TO 728
HELD AT
BOWMAN GILFILLAN, WEST STREET, SANDTON
© REALTIME TRANSCRIPTIONS

9th December 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry
Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
Page 552
1 [PROCEEDINGS ON 9 DECEMBER 2010]
2 [09:40] COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you very much.
3 Are we on record? Thank you, we’re on record today, the 9th
4 December 2010. We are proceeding in our matter of Dr D S
5 Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited, In Liquidation,
6 Master’s Reference: T240/2010. Parties present, we have Mr
7 D J Nel, who is counsel from the Johannesburg Bar. He’s
8 instructed by Mr Haroon Laher of Bowman Gilfillan
9 Incorporated. Mr Laher is assisted by Mrs Bianca
10 Masterton. And I think Ms Kathrada will be joining us,
11 she’ll be in and out, also assisting them. And then of
12 course we have Malcolm doing our transcription for us and
13 our first witness is Dr Grieve.
14 Dr Grieve, you mentioned before we went on record
15 that you have something to place on record. I thought you
16 said you remembered the name of another debtor, but let me
17 place you under oath.
18 DR GRIEVE: I’m just, one of these guys
19 that are out here that I’m not quite sure why he’s here,
20 but we’ll –
21 COMMISSIONER: We’ll deal with that.
22 DR GRIEVE: We’ll deal with it but one of
23 the things I was going to say is I think I should not sit
24 present with him.
25 COMMISSIONER: Oh.
Page 553
1 DR GRIEVE: I’ll just come back and, the
2 rest, I wouldn’t have a problem sitting here, not from my
3 side but it might elicit some sort of fireworks that we
4 don’t need.
5 COMMISSIONER: Alright. No, that’s fine.
6 Dr Grieve, just to confirm you have no objection of taking
7 the oath?
8 DR GRIEVE: No objection.
9 COMMISSIONER: Please raise your right
10 hand. Do you swear that the evidence that you are about to
11 give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
12 truth, so Help me God?
13 DR GRIEVE: I do.
14 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
15 Please proceed.
16 ADV NEL: Thank you. Dr Grieve, I think
17 in the file before you there should be a bundle of
18 documents relating to a Mr Colin Botha, is that there?
19 DR GRIEVE: That is here.
20 ADV NEL: Okay. What I’d like you to do
21 is to find the, there’s a document you should know it, it’s
22 called an Application for Finance, Purchase of Bond
23 Proceed, it’s a standard form printed document –
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes?
25 ADV NEL: That was utilised by Dr Grieve
Page 554
1 Bridging Solutions.
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: It has the heading Annexure A
4 on it, as soon as you get that, if you can just tell me.
5 DR GRIEVE: I’ll do that now. These
6 things are from quite a time ago, I’m hoping to just pick
7 up something that’s going to help me orientate it in my
8 mind. I’m hoping that you will know the answer to that
9 thing, but okay. Annexure A?
10 ADV NEL: Yes, it’s annexure to, I think
11 the actual agreement that’s concluded.
12 DR GRIEVE: I’ve got it, yes.
13 COMMISSIONER: Mr Nel, forgive me, I do
14 apologise for interrupting, Ms Masterton brought it to my
15 attention. Dr Grieve, I forgot to ask you whether you are
16 comfortable speaking to us without legal representation?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 COMMISSIONER: Okay. I just want to
19 place on record that Mr Willem Storm did phone me this
20 morning and told me that he won’t be joining us and that he
21 did speak with you and that you are comfortable with that.
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
23 COMMISSIONER: Okay. And of course at
24 any stage, if you become uncomfortable bring it to my
25 attention and I’ll try and assist you as far as I can.
Page 555
1 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
2 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. Forgive
3 me.
4 ADV NEL: No problem at all, thank you.
5 Dr Grieve, that is a standard printed form, am I correct,
6 that was utilised by Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions?
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: How was this form completed, or
9 how was it received and then completed by applicants? How
10 would it normally come about?
11 DR GRIEVE: Normally, I think we have
12 touched on, if I can use the term modus operandi of how we
13 used to do this business in the very first inquiry.
14 Typically the attorney that would be representing a client
15 would approach me and say listen, we have a client that’s
16 in need of the finance, I would send the forms through to
17 the attorney and the attorney would then, I assume, sit
18 with the client or liaise with the client and get them
19 signed and the attorney would send it back to me.
20 ADV NEL: Okay. So if one looks at this
21 particular form, you’ll see at the bottom there, there is a
22 block to be completed by the transferring attorney.
23 DR GRIEVE: On page 1?
24 ADV NEL: No, that Annexure A, the actual
25 form that, the Application for Finance.

Page 556
1 DR GRIEVE: Can you just show me on which
2 page you’re looking at, please?
3 ADV NEL: The Annexure.
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: Now you’ll see at the bottom
6 there, the name of the transferring attorneys referred to
7 there is Ebersohn & Grobler.
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: Did Dr Grieve Bridging
10 Solutions have dealings with Ebersohn & Grobler attorneys?
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 ADV NEL: Were there a number of bridging
13 finance matters or applications received from Ebersohn &
14 Grobler?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: Do you have personal
17 recollection of this particular bridging finance matter
18 relating to a Mr Colin Botha?
19 DR GRIEVE: I would like to give it a
20 double-barrel answer, yes, I do, I just can’t remember all
21 the detail, it’s been a long time. There’s another party
22 that was involved in two transactions with them. Now I’m
23 referring to something you haven’t placed on the table yet
24 and in my mind I can’t just immediately recall who was the
25 other party involved, there was almost another
Page 557
1 representative person on this transaction as well, even if
2 it’s not necessarily in this paperwork. I just can’t
3 remember who the other party was, but I do more or less
4 recall this transaction, yes.
5 ADV NEL: Thank you. Dr Grieve, that
6 same document in the bottom right hand side is a signature
7 placed above the words “For and on behalf of Dr Grieve
8 Bridging Solutions.”
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 ADV NEL: Is that your signature?
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 ADV NEL: So you would then approve this
13 application?
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 ADV NEL: Am I correct that the next step
16 then would be the completion of an actual agreement between
17 Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions and the beneficiary of the
18 bridging solution finance?
19 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct, yes.
20 ADV NEL: Now if you turn back a couple
21 of pages, I think you may already have it there, is the
22 Purchase of Bond Proceeds Agreement.
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: Do you have that?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 558
1 ADV NEL: If we look at that we see the
2 parties are referred to as Colin Aubrey Botha and Dr Grieve
3 Bridging Solutions.
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: I’m going to ask you just to
6 turn to the last page of that document, the signature page.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: Is that your signature above
9 the words “For and on behalf of Dr Grieve Bridging
10 Solutions?”
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 ADV NEL: These agreements, are they
13 signed in your presence by the lender?
14 DR GRIEVE: No.
15 ADV NEL: They come to you already signed
16 and you will then sign them?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 ADV NEL: And they’re received by you or
19 by Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited rather from the
20 attorney?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: Now this particular application
23 and agreement that was concluded, money was paid out to Mr
24 Botha, is that correct?
25 DR GRIEVE: I’m not trying to be funny
Page 559
1 when I say that I don’t know if it was paid out directly to
2 Mr Botha, it’s a long time ago. That did happen from time
3 to time when we would pay a client directly, but that is
4 not the normal way we would have done it. There were
5 exceptions, absolutely. I am guessing but I’m almost 100%
6 certain that we would have paid this money into Ebersohn &
7 Grobler’s trust account and the onus would have been on him
8 to pay Mr Botha.
9 ADV NEL: Let me assist you, my question
10 may have been a little vague, but if you page on a couple
11 of pages, just after that Annexure A I showed you –
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes?
13 ADV NEL: After Annexure A there is
14 Annexure B, which is just an example of how calculations
15 are effected and then the next page should be a payment
16 authority.
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes, that assists me.
18 ADV NEL: I think that will assist you
19 because that indicates that the account holder was Ebersohn
20 & Grobler’s trust account.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: And that is your normal, the
23 normal modus operandi of Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited.
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes, correct.
25 ADV NEL: Would pay the money into the

Page 560
1 attorney’s trust account and then the attorney would,
2 presumably on the instructions of the end recipient, pay
3 the money into whichever account that recipient requires?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: But to the best of your
6 recollection, this amount of R525 000 was paid into the
7 trust account of Ebersohn & Grobler?
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: Are there any records or
10 documents that would conclusively prove this payment? Are
11 there bank records or is there, did you receive a receipt
12 or anything from Ebersohn & Grobler?
13 DR GRIEVE: No, I would not have received
14 a receipt but there would have been bank records. Like I
15 said those records would have obviously been in the
16 possession of Paul Marais or Gateway or that group of
17 people because they had those files, but yes, there would
18 be such a thing on a bank record somewhere.
19 ADV NEL: Did you, I apologise for using
20 the word, you, did Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty)
21 Limited have any difficulties at any stage relating to
22 monies that were paid to Ebersohn & Grobler attorneys?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: Can you explain those
25 difficulties or just elaborate on that?
Page 561
1 DR GRIEVE: I can elaborate. I cannot
2 remember all the exact details but I recollect offhand, and
3 this is the philosophy not the fact, I think if I remember
4 there were four transactions. There may have been one more
5 or one, not less but for that I can sort of recollect and
6 obviously we were struggling to get our money back from the
7 attorneys and we started to enquire at the clients and we
8 realised there had been some serious irregularities from
9 Ebersohn & Grobler, we had asked for more information on
10 file and we were struggling to get it and we actually went
11 to go and see them and there was a bit of fireworks in the
12 office and some shouting and swearing and we were chased
13 out of the offices and then we started a legal process, we
14 actually tried to collect through Tim Du Toit. We walked
15 down that road some way, unfortunately I also landed up in
16 cash flow troubles myself so I couldn’t finance it further,
17 but I was quite unhappy with the situation. So I, from my
18 side did what I thought I could do and I went to the South
19 African Law Society and I lodged a complaint for an enquiry
20 there and there was such a day where they invited me to
21 some hearing or inquiry or whatever you call it at the law
22 offices and I sat there the morning at 8 o’clock and we sat
23 there waiting and apparently somebody else had lodged a
24 similar complaint against them and I was then called in
25 after the first hearing - I don’t know if it’s the right
Page 562
1 term - after the first hearing was over they called me in,
2 we all sat down very formally similar to what we’re doing
3 here and they just said to me, listen, we’re not going to
4 proceed, there’s some stuff out of the previous inquiry and
5 they’re both of similar nature, they want to do an audit on
6 his trust account first and we’ll reconvene at a later
7 stage.
8 Then I received a letter in the post in November
9 or December, I can’t remember the month, where the Law
10 Society said to me that basically they had suspended him,
11 or his firm.
12 ADV NEL: Okay.
13 DR GRIEVE: And at that stage I was also
14 in trouble, so we had started our proceedings as well and I
15 didn’t do anything more.
16 ADV NEL: Okay. Can you remember if any
17 of those four transactions you refer to or five, it’s not
18 relevant whether –
19 DR GRIEVE: I think it was four, yes.
20 ADV NEL: - involved Mr Botha?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes, they did involve Mr
22 Botha but there were, like I say, another person involved
23 as well. It was him and a friend and, or colleague or
24 sister or aunt or uncle or somebody’s daughter.
25 ADV NEL: Now this particular
Page 563
1 transaction, the documents that are in front of you, it’s
2 an amount of R525 000 that we’ve established was paid into
3 the trust account of Ebersohn & Grobler, did Mr Botha
4 contact you about this at all? Did Bridging Solutions try
5 and make contact with Mr Botha to say when are we getting
6 paid?
7 DR GRIEVE: Now you’re asking me stuff
8 that I want to answer, yes, we made certain efforts. Now
9 we had four transactions on the table. I found it quite
10 frustrating because on two of those transactions, I
11 actually struggled to get hold of the end user and I kept
12 coming to the other party. And I’m going to use a name
13 here, but I could have the wrong one in my mind, so maybe
14 you’ve also heard the name and you can help me like you
15 keep saying you’ll help me, but I think in this one there
16 might have been a Nick Pentz as well involved, who was a
17 friend or relative or daughter or –
18 ADV NEL: Yes, in the bundle before you,
19 I’m not, let’s just see, we’re just trying to assist you as
20 well, just after that payment authority document we looked
21 at just now –
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes?
23 ADV NEL: - there should be a document,
24 authority document, it’s called Spesiale Volmag.
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes, there it is.

Page 564
1 ADV NEL: That refers to Nicolas Willem
2 Pentz.
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes, that’s correct.
4 ADV NEL: Okay. So in this, according to
5 this particular document, Mr Botha authorised Mr Pentz to
6 act on his behalf.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: He gave him proper power of
9 attorney.
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: Now did you then, did Dr Grieve
12 Bridging Solutions deal with Mr Pentz rather than Mr Botha?
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes. I want to go one step
14 further and just add some stuff there. I think we made one
15 or two attempts at getting hold of Mr Botha but then we
16 were requested by Mr Pentz to speak to him, he will honour
17 his commitment and he kept making us promises of payment,
18 and obviously at the time we got tired of that and that’s
19 when we handed the matter over to Tim Du Toit.
20 ADV NEL: Did Mr Pentz at any stage tell
21 you that Mr Botha did not receive this amount of R525 000?
22 DR GRIEVE: At no stage did he tell me
23 that he did not receive the amount of R525 000. I was
24 definitely left under an impression that the fruits of that
25 funding may have been split in terms of some to Pentz and
Page 565
1 some to Botha. But what happened on the other side of that
2 trust account now I have no idea.
3 ADV NEL: And as far as you were aware,
4 was Mr Pentz a friend of Mr Botha or was he a
5 representative of Ebersohn & Grobler?
6 DR GRIEVE: As far as I was aware, he was
7 a friend, colleague, family member or acquaintance of Mr
8 Botha.
9 ADV NEL: Thank you. Dr Grieve, thank
10 you. What we’d like to do is to ask Mr Botha to come in.
11 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
12 ADV NEL: We’d like to temporarily excuse
13 you. If you don’t have a problem with sitting in with Mr
14 Botha you’re welcome to do so, and we’d like to ask Mr
15 Botha what occurred here.
16 DR GRIEVE: You’re welcome. I have no
17 preference. Do you want me to be excused, is that better
18 for you?
19 ADV NEL: It’s really, it’s up to you.
20 DR GRIEVE: I’ll take a comfort break.
21 COMMISSIONER: Okay.
22 DR GRIEVE: That’s fine.
23 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you, if you
24 can just stand down. Thank you for that.
25 [INQUIRY ARJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES]
Page 566
1 [09:59] COMMISSIONER: Can I ask you if you do
2 have a cell phone if you will just switch your cell phone
3 off for us. Okay, thank you. Have you met everyone?
4 MR BOTHA: No, we haven’t.
5 COMMISSIONER: Ja, I’m going to quickly
6 introduce you. This is Mr Nel, he is an advocate from the
7 Johannesburg Bar, he’ll be asking you questions. Mr Haroon
8 Laher, acting for the creditors – for a major creditor in
9 this matter and then of course from Bowman Gilfillan and
10 then Mrs Masterton is just assisting him and Malcolm is our
11 transcriber.
12 MR BOTHA: Okay, thank you.
13 COMMISSIONER: Okay, are we back on
14 record. Thank you very much. We are on record. Mr Botha,
15 may I have your full names please.
16 MR BOTHA: Colin Aubrey C-O-L-I-N.
17 COMMISSIONER: There we go, thank you,
18 any objection in taking the oath.
19 COLIN AUBREY BOTHA: d.s.s.
20 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Botha, you
21 would have noticed from your subpoena that you are entitled
22 to legal representation.
23 MR BOTHA: Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER: Are you comfortable
25 speaking to us without legal representation?
Page 567
1 MR BOTHA: Yes, I spoke Mr Margo and a
2 lawyer yesterday and he says that if I need help he would
3 come in, you know, but I don’t actually know what all this
4 is about yet, so -
5 COMMISSIONER: Okay, well let me quickly
6 explain. This is a fact finding mission in terms of the
7 Companies Act, so you either know the answer or you don’t.
8 If at any stage you feel uncomfortable, please bring it to
9 my attention and I will give you an opportunity to stand
10 down and consult with Mr Margo –
11 MR BOTHA: Yes, sure.
12 COMMISSIONER: But this is a inquiry into
13 the affairs of DR D S Grieve Bridging Solution (Pty) Ltd
14 (in liquidation).
15 MR BOTHA: I don’t even know who they
16 are.
17 COMMISSIONER: Okay, well the liquidators
18 have picked up your name in the documentation, so I’m going
19 to allow Mr Nel to take you from there.
20 MR BOTHA: Sure.
21 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Please
22 proceed.
23 ADV NEL: Thank you Madam Commissioner.
24 Mr Botha, just a formal question, your identity number?
25 MR BOTHA: 4401125098083, I have got my

Page 568
1 ID –
2 ADV NEL: No that’s fine –
3 COMMISSIONER: Just slow it, sorry, 44?
4 MR BOTHA: 0112 –
5 COMMISSIONER: Ja.
6 MR BOTHA: 5098 – I think it is –
7 5098083. So it’s 4401125098083.
8 COMMISSIONER: Thanks.
9 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Botha, what is
10 your relationship with Mr Nic Pentz?
11 MR BOTHA: I’ll tell you what my
12 relationship with Mr Pentz is. I’ve known his daughter for
13 15, 18 years and I know his son too, which in fact I’ve
14 made a will with FNB that my house, on my debts, would go
15 to his son. It’s a will, I’ve never changed that. Then I
16 know about Nic Pentz was in jail. When he came out of
17 jail, I was in financial problems and I wanted to change my
18 house into a guesthouse and his daughter works for
19 Sportsman’s Warehouse – Karin is her name. We thought that
20 she could come out there and we could turn this into a
21 guesthouse. She said her father could raise money. I saw
22 the father and the father said he could raise R300 000, of
23 which he gives me R150 000 to do renovations on my house
24 and R150 000 he would set himself up in business and pay me
25 back within two months. I signed an affidavit with a
Page 569
1 lawyer who’s called – I’d have to look on my cell phone –
2 and it was giving permission. From then I have never heard
3 from Pentz, never got money. He actually closed my bank
4 account with FNB. I’ve got my old bank account details
5 here. You’ll see I owed money there. He said he’d sorted
6 that out and that was it, and I phoned actually yesterday
7 and he spoke to Margo, the lawyer, and he said he’d made a
8 query or he went to the Law Society about some lawyer that
9 he had used who stole money. That’s what I know of Nick
10 Pentz. He hasn’t been very nice and I suffered
11 tremendously through this whole episode, because I’ve asked
12 him where are my title deeds, I’ve asked him for papers,
13 I’ve asked him for – if you go into my cell phone records,
14 which you’re welcome to, you’ll see endless cell phone
15 messages asking him what is happening.
16 ADV NEL: Did he request you to give him
17 your title deeds to your property?
18 MR BOTHA: No, not at all.
19 ADV NEL: I would like to show you a
20 document, it’s in the bundle before you, but perhaps it’s
21 easier if I just pass this to you. Is that your signature
22 on that document?
23 MR BOTHA: That is definitely my
24 signature.
25 ADV NEL: Okay, because in terms of that
Page 570
1 document, you gave a power of attorney –
2 MR BOTHA: To Pentz.
3 ADV NEL: - authority to Pentz.
4 MR BOTHA: Yes. Now a lot of this
5 documentation was brought to me which I signed and he – and
6 I signed stuff, the power of attorney, because I trusted
7 the man and he gave me forms to sign with that power of
8 attorney which was never written out and I’ve never got
9 copies of them.
10 ADV NEL: Yes.
11 MR BOTHA: You see I don’t remember this
12 750 000 at all, but that is my signature, I quarantine you,
13 on my own.
14 ADV NEL: Yes, no sure. Did you not read
15 this document properly at the time it was given to you?
16 MR BOTHA: I’m not Afrikaans, even though
17 I’m Botha, I’ve lived overseas.
18 ADV NEL: Okay.
19 MR BOTHA: And I don’t think – see I
20 think I signed that document without actually seeing the
21 full document.
22 ADV NEL: Okay.
23 COMMISSIONER: You signed the document
24 without actually seeing the document?
25 MR BOTHA: Well, he brought an affidavit,
Page 571
1 which I gave him, and then they came again and it was
2 always like three minutes in m house and then they were
3 off. And he said, “Sign these papers, we’ll fill them in
4 and give you all the details of what’s happening.”
5 COMMISSIONER: They – whose they?
6 MR BOTHA: Nick Pentz and the lawyer’s
7 name – if I can just go into my cell phone, I –
8 COMMISSIONER: No, actually I don’t want
9 you to put your cell phone on, but perhaps we can refresh
10 your memory, was it Mr Grobler?
11 MR BOTHA: No.
12 COMMISSIONER: Ebersohn?
13 MR BOTHA: Sorry?
14 COMMISSIONER: Mr Ebersohn.
15 MR BOTHA: No.
16 ADV NEL: Was it a man?
17 MR BOTHA: Man, let me think.
18 COMMISSIONER: Should we stand down
19 quickly .
20 ADV NEL: Yes, sure.
21 COMMISSIONER: I think we just go off
22 record for a moment, then we all know.
23 MR BOTHA: It’s just in my telephone.
24 COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
25 [INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQURY RESUMES]

Page 572
1 [10:08] COMMISSIONER: Are we on record? Thank
2 you, please proceed.
3 ADV NEL: Thank you, Ma'am. Thank you,
4 Mr Botha. I’m going to pass you another document. This is
5 a payment authority document. I’m going to ask you once
6 again to identify the signature on the bottom of that page.
7 Is that yours?
8 MR BOTHA: No. Here, this?
9 ADV NEL: Yes.
10 MR BOTHA: No, no. That’s Pentz, it says
11 Pentz.
12 ADV NEL: Okay, so presumably after the
13 authority document was signed on the 9th of September Mr
14 Pentz then completed documentation on your behalf.
15 MR BOTHA: Mm.
16 COMMISSIONER: Is that a yes or a no?
17 You just say –
18 MR BOTHA: Yes, yes sorry. This, I’m
19 reading this.
21 MR BOTHA: Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine. If you
23 need to take a moment –
24 MR BOTHA: No I just, I didn’t even know
25 about this.
Page 573
1 ADV NEL: Thank you. I passed you
2 another document Mr Botha –
3 MR BOTHA: Of course again –
4 COMMISSIONER: Hang on here. You can’t
5 talk with Mr Nel.
6 ADV NEL: That document you’ve indicated
7 has also got Mr Pentz’s signature on it.
8 MR BOTHA: Yes, that is.
9 ADV NEL: You’ll see that document is an
10 application for bridging finance in your name and it has
11 your identity number on it. So Mr Pentz pursuant to the
12 power of attorney has applied on your behalf for bridging
13 finance in an amount of, I think R525,000.
14 MR BOTHA: 525.
15 COMMISSIONER: Just for record purposes,
16 you told us that the person that was with Mr Pentz when you
17 signed the documents was –
18 MR BOTHA: Mr Omri Van Zyl.
19 COMMISSIONER: Mr Omri Van Zyl.
20 MR BOTHA: He’s supposed to be a lawyer.
21 COMMISSIONER: Okay, was he introduced to
22 you as a lawyer?
23 MR BOTHA: As a lawyer.
24 ADV NEL: I’m going to pass you another –
25 MR BOTHA: That’s why I would’ve thought,
Page 574
1 you know, this is all upfront because I felt sorry for
2 Pentz. He was in jail apparently for fraud, which his
3 daughter said he wasn’t responsible for and I thought well
4 give the man a chance, he’s helping me get a loan, he’s
5 going to pay me back, which he promised. And you know I’m,
6 that’s the sort of person I am.
8 ADV NEL: That’s fine, Mr Botha. I’m
9 going to pass you another document. That is an agreement
10 concluded between Dr DS Grieve Bridging Solutions and
11 yourself. Now if you look at the last page, just to assist
12 you, you’ll see – and it appears from what you’ve told me
13 already that that document was also signed on your behalf –
14 MR BOTHA: Ja.
15 ADV NEL: By Mr Pentz.
16 MR BOTHA: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: Is that correct?
18 MR BOTHA: Mm.
19 COMMISSIONER: You have to say yes or no,
20 please.
21 MR BOTHA: Yes, it is.
22 ADV NEL: Your signature does not appear
23 anywhere on that document?
24 MR BOTHA: No. No.
25 ADV NEL: Mr Botha, just to tell you –
Page 575
1 you may not know this, you’re welcome to comment if you
2 want to – Dr Grieve told us shortly before you arrived that
3 money was, this money in terms of the agreement, an amount
4 of R525,000 was paid pursuant to the conclusion of this
5 agreement into the trust account of a firm of attorneys
6 called Ebersohn & Grobler Attorneys. Did you have any
7 dealings whatsoever with Ebersohn & Grobler Attorneys?
8 MR BOTHA: I don’t even know who they
9 are.
10 ADV NEL: So you’ve had no dealings
11 whatsoever. Mr Botha, did you ever receive any money that
12 emanated from Dr DS Grieve Bridging Solutions?
13 MR BOTHA: Nothing. I swear to God,
14 nothing. I’m in such financial problems, I can show you I
15 owe on about a house, rates which I’ve got a final thing
16 for R46,000 and I had nine, I didn’t have electricity for
17 nine months and this one was [inaudible], his brother
18 actually paid my electricity bill, 10,000 odd to get my
19 electricity, because I didn’t have, because all, of this
20 Pentz thing.
21 ADV NEL: How did the involvement with Mr
22 Pentz cause you financial difficulties?
23 MR BOTHA: Well I first of all I don’t
24 have a car so, and I do landscaping work in Cosmos and me
25 and my partner broke up and he had the truck. So part of

Page 576
1 the agreement was I was going to change the house, let part
2 of the house, buy myself a vehicle again because in Cosmos
3 I can walk around and do the odd job.
4 ADV NEL: Sure.
5 MR BOTHA: So everything fell into chaos.
6 My life fell into chaos. I didn’t have money. I’ve been
7 kept alive by friends. Both of these two boys have been
8 keeping me alive. They’ll tell you that and show you, and
9 other people I can name who’ve helped me every month to eat
10 basically because it’s been, it’s been a nightmare for me.
11 ADV NEL: Mr Botha, we certainly
12 sympathise. You know this is not a witch hunt –
13 MR BOTHA: I don’t want sympathy.
14 ADV NEL: No, no, I understand. But I
15 mean we –
16 MR BOTHA: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: We do. What we’re just trying
18 to get to is what actually happened to this money and
19 that’s, you know, why we’re grateful to you for telling us.
20 MR BOTHA: Alright.
21 ADV NEL: Mr Pentz never came back to you
22 after you had signed any of these documents. Is that
23 correct?
24 MR BOTHA: That’s absolutely correct.
25 And if you go through my cell phone records, which you’re
Page 577
1 welcome to, you’ll see hundreds and hundreds of cell phone
2 messages and I sent messages purposely that I had a record
3 of messages.
4 ADV NEL: Did Mr Pentz ever ask you, you
5 mentioned your title deeds earlier. Did he ask you for
6 your title deeds?
7 MR BOTHA: No, never at all.
8 ADV NEL: When you mentioned –
9 MR BOTHA: Because he asked me once if I
10 had title deeds or not.
11 ADV NEL: Yes.
12 MR BOTHA: And I said I don’t know where
13 my – and I really don’t know. I thought they were with
14 Margo, this lawyer, and he says he hasn’t got them but the
15 old man’s old now. He’s, he was Judge Margo and he’s in
16 his 80s now, which will help me if I need to, and I thought
17 he had the title deeds and when he shifted from Dainfern he
18 couldn’t find my title deeds and Pentz knows I had no title
19 deeds and I said no, I don’t have title deeds. So how he
20 got hold of title deeds I don’t know.
21 ADV NEL: I’m not sure whether he got
22 hold of title deeds. Is that just an assumption that you –
23 MR BOTHA: I don’t know because I’d like
24 to know where my title deeds are.
25 ADV NEL: But you never handed title
Page 578
1 deeds to Mr Pentz?
2 MR BOTHA: No, Margo asked me to find out
3 if he’s got my title deeds because I, as far as I’m
4 concerned the title deeds, I, the copies that I had I can’t
5 find and I’ve looked in my house. You have to go to the
6 title deeds office and I think it’s quite a thing to get
7 title deeds out of the office. I don’t know.
8 COMMISSIONER: Sorry, if I may perhaps,
9 I’m a bit lost here. Is your house bonded with anyone?
10 MR BOTHA: No, no, I paid, when I came
11 back from England in 1981 I brought financial rand into the
12 country.
13 COMMISSIONER: Yes?
14 MR BOTHA: And I had to wait and I bought
15 the house cash for R180,000 that time.
16 COMMISSIONER: Okay, so if I can
17 understand was Pentz going to raise a loan on your house
18 that was un-bonded?
19 MR BOTHA: That was un-bonded. That’s
20 what he said he would take. He, no he, well that’s what he
21 said on my house, if he could raise a loan on my house.
23 MR BOTHA: For 300,000 originally, which
24 he’d take 150 and I’d get 150,000 which he’d pay back in
25 three months, and I said yes, you can do that but I never
Page 579
1 gave title deeds over at all.
2 ADV NEL: But you put up your house as
3 security for a –
4 MR BOTHA: As security.
5 ADV NEL: For a loan that Mr Pentz was
6 going to take out in your name –
7 MR BOTHA: I said to him he could take
8 that out. I did say that yes, because how else would he,
9 you know, and I thought well, you know, that’s, I’ll get
10 that 150,000 and pay it back, whatever, because I offered
11 if he could get a loan, I said I would pay back my share of
12 the loan and he said he’d pay back his share of the loan,
13 whether he got it from a building society or wherever he
14 got the loan, but I’ve never ever heard that he got a loan.
15 ADV NEL: Well it appears, Mr Botha, that
16 he obtain bridging finance in an amount of R525,000 in your
17 name and obviously your property as security. Are you
18 aware of summons having been issued against you?
19 MR BOTHA: No. I’ve heard that from Mr
20 Laher, told me. I nearly fell through the phone I couldn’t
21 believe it.
22 ADV NEL: Is your residential address 239
23 Karin Street, Cosmos?
24 MR BOTHA: Yes, it’s Erf 239, 101 Karin
25 Street. We used to be under peri-urban in the old days and

Page 580
1 we all had 239 and then when we went into Madibeng they
2 gave us actually street numbers.
3 ADV NEL: You see according to the
4 documentation in my possession summons was issued against
5 you in August 2009.
6 MR BOTHA: I didn’t know.
7 ADV NEL: And default judgment against
8 you was already applied for in November last year.
9 MR BOTHA: I never received any – to,
10 where were those documents handed to or given to? I’ve
11 never received any – and I’m at home all the time.
12 ADV NEL: I unfortunately don’t have a
13 copy of the sheriff’s return of service so I can’t give you
14 those details but it appears from the summons that it was
15 served at an address 239 Karin Street. I hear what you’ve
16 said about Erf 239 –
17 MR BOTHA: Ja, but on my gate it says
18 239, so it would look like 239. I’ve got a thing up there.
19 ADV NEL: Mr Botha, unfortunately I can’t
20 assist you with what’s happened. I do know that Mr Laher
21 is going to investigate the issuing of these particular
22 claims and I’m sure he’ll be in contact with you if
23 necessary in due course –
24 MR BOTHA: Any time. It’s just difficult
25 for me to get here because I have to get people to bring
Page 581
1 me.
2 COMMISSIONER: No, we understand.
3 MR BOTHA: And also I got a cheque from
4 you people which I can give back to you because I haven’t
5 got a bank account. That was closed by that Pentz. I
6 think closed, yes, so I’ve got your cheque here if you want
7 it back.
8 COMMISSIONER: We’ll make, Ms Masterton
9 will assist you with that. If you can give us the cheque
10 back we can perhaps give it cash. Thank you.
11 MR BOTHA: Okay, good.
12 COMMISSIONER: How did Mr Pentz close
13 your bank account? Just on that again, how did he –
14 MR BOTHA: He told me that he, and I had
15 an overdraft of 20-odd thousand I think.
17 MR BOTHA: And he said that the, we’re
18 going to, he’d sort out the overdraft to get the loan and
19 he said the bank said because I had an overdraft that I
20 hadn’t paid they closed my account. Here’s my bank, you
21 can find out.
22 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine. I just
23 wanted to – okay.
24 MR BOTHA: I can give you all my bank
25 details if –
Page 582
1 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine, thank
2 you.
3 MR BOTHA: Which you can go into there,
4 it’ll tell you my story.
5 ADV NEL: Mr Botha, just in that regard I
6 must just point out to you perhaps for your edification
7 rather than for these proceedings, there appears to be a
8 bond over your property in an amount of R20,000. It may
9 very well be that that –
10 MR BOTHA: That’s FNB –
11 COMMISSIONER: Just hang on.
12 ADV NEL: That the overdraft had been
13 transferred, that the overdraft has been transferred to
14 your bond account. As I say it’s not particularly
15 necessary for our proceedings but I’m just telling you and
16 you may want to take that up with First National Bank and
17 try and resolve that somehow for your own –
18 MR BOTHA: No, I will. Is that First
19 National Bank, Laudium? That’s the –
20 ADV NEL: I can’t tell you that. It is
21 First National Bank. I can give you the bond reference, if
22 that will assist you.
23 MR BOTHA: Okay. It’s just I’d like to
24 sort that out if I can.
25 ADV NEL: Are you ready?
Page 583
1 MR BOTHA: Yes.
2 ADV NEL: It’s capital B39656/1990.
3 MR BOTHA: 1990, and for R20,000?
4 ADV NEL: Yes.
5 MR BOTHA: So he never paid that amount.
6 ADV NEL: Can you tell me, Mr Botha, do
7 you have contact details for Mr Nic Pentz?
8 MR BOTHA: I’ve got his cell phone
9 number.
10 ADV NEL: Can I ask you when we’re
11 finished with you if you wouldn’t mind just switching on
12 your cell phone and then giving that number to Mr Laher?
13 MR BOTHA: Yes, sure.
14 ADV NEL: Thank you. Is that the only
15 contact details you have for him?
16 MR BOTHA: Only contact –
17 ADV NEL: No physical address or –
18 MR BOTHA: Absolutely, because I don’t
19 even know where he is. He told me he was in Cape Town. He
20 used to be in Pretoria. His daughter, I can give you her
21 phone number –
22 COMMISSIONER: Yes, and his son’s as
23 well.
24 MR BOTHA: I don’t know the son’s number
25 at work, the mother’s number, because the son stays with

Page 584
1 the mother but I can give you the daughter’s and she will
2 answer.
3 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. Okay.
4 ADV NEL: Thank you, Mr Botha. We have
5 no further questions. From you, Madam Commissioner?
6 COMMISSIONER: No, nothing from my side.
7 Mr Botha, thank you very much for assisting us and then as
8 I, I will excuse you. Thank you for your cheque. We’ll
9 sort that out now for you and then I’m going to excuse you
10 and then we can go off record and then you can just give us
11 those telephone numbers, please. Thank you.
12 MR BOTHA: Thank you. Thank you very
13 much.
15 [10:43] COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much, we
16 are back on record. For those of you who have switched on
17 your cell phones in our tea break, just please remember to
18 switch them off again. Dr Grieve, just to confirm that you
19 are still bound by your oath.
20 DAVID GRIEVE: s.u.o.
21 COMMISSIONER: Please proceed.
22 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Thank you, Dr
23 Grieve, that bundle in front of you, I think it has now
24 been numbered and there’s a section in front of you
25 relating to Mr Donald Mathers.
Page 585
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 ADV NEL: Do you recall dealings with Mr
3 Donald Mathers?
4 DR GRIEVE: I recall the transaction and
5 the dealings with Messrs Ebersohn and Grobler.
6 ADV NEL: I see. Can I ask you to, as we
7 did earlier, I am going to ask you to turn to page 15, do
8 you have that?
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 ADV NEL: That is a finance application
11 document.
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 ADV NEL: Similar to what we discussed
14 earlier, this document is completed and submitted to Dr
15 Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited by the attorney, is
16 that correct?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 ADV NEL: At the bottom of the page, we
19 can again see the transferring attorneys are Ebersohn &
20 Grobler.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: The contract person referred to
23 there, it appears to be Vianta Naude.
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 ADV NEL: Did you personal dealings with
Page 586
1 Ms Naude?
2 DR GRIEVE: I dealt with her directly in
3 their offices, ja.
4 ADV NEL: Yes.
5 DR GRIEVE: She was introduced to me by
6 Mr Grobler, Jan Grobler as his right hand, so to speak.
7 ADV NEL: I see. If you turn to page 17.
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: That’s the payment authority -
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: - which requests Dr Grieve
12 Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited to pay an amount of
13 R850 000 into the trust, or into the account of Ebersohn &
14 Grobler Attorneys at Absa, is that correct?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: Was this money paid over to
17 Ebersohn & Grobler Attorneys?
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: I am going to ask you just to
20 page back a little bit to page 8.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: That’s the agreement that was
23 concluded between Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions and Mr
24 Mathers, is that correct?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 587
1 ADV NEL: If you look at page 14, that’s
2 the signature page –
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: - it hasn’t been signed by Dr
5 Grieve Bridging Solutions but can I assume that Dr Grieve
6 Bridging Solutions acted on this agreement –
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes, we did.
8 ADV NEL: - and accepted this agreement.
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes, we did. I want to say
10 that I would actually like to see an original copy that
11 might on Tim du Toit’s desk, to see if I signed that. I
12 cannot recall signing it, but I almost want to assume
13 somewhere along the line I should have –
14 ADV NEL: Yes.
15 DR GRIEVE: Ja, we acted on it.
16 ADV NEL: And if you turn to page 18 –
17 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
18 ADV NEL: That’s a suretyship document.
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 ADV NEL: That is in favour of Dr Grieve
21 Bridging Solutions by somebody identified as Paulus Kotze.
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
23 ADV NEL: Did you – did Dr Grieve
24 Bridging Solutions require a suretyship?
25 DR GRIEVE: I believe we did, ja.

Page 588
1 ADV NEL: And it appears from page 18
2 that that is up to a maximum amount of R1 million.
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, did you instruct Tim
5 du Toit to recover the amount of 850 000?
6 DR GRIEVE: I instructed them on a
7 various number of files, I must confess that I do not
8 recall exactly which ones definitely were handed over to
9 them. I want to say I believe, I’ll qualify that, believe
10 that I handed all of the Ebersohn & Grobler transactions
11 over to them but the proof in the pudding there, we would
12 actually have to have a look at what they have. I cannot
13 recall but I think that –
15 ADV NEL: If you look at page 1 of that
16 bundle in front of you –
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes?
18 ADV NEL: - those are – that’s a document
19 called particulars of claim in which the nature of the
20 claim against Donald Mathers and Paulus Kotze are set out.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: I would assume, and you can
23 correct me if my assumption is wrong, that the fact that
24 Tim du Toit were instructed to issues summons against
25 Mathers and Kotze, would indicate that Dr Grieve Bridging
Page 589
1 Solutions was never repaid the amount of R850 000, is that
2 correct?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: And the amount of R850 000 was
5 presumably paid into the account of Ebersohn & Grobler
6 Attorneys.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: Now, one of the allegations
9 that were made in these particulars of claim is that there
10 was a mortgage bond signed or concluded, rather and
11 registered. Now that mortgage bond is not in our
12 possession but that mortgage bond related to a property in
13 Queens borough Extension 14 Township. Does that ring a
14 bell with you at all?
15 DR GRIEVE: Vaguely, yes.
16 ADV NEL: That’s in Kwa Zulu Natal?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 ADV NEL: Because that I understand was
19 registered as security for the indebtedness of Mathers to
20 Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions.
21 DR GRIEVE: That’s what my memory tells
22 me, ja.
23 ADV NEL: Can you recall whether you ever
24 saw such a mortgage bond?
25 DR GRIEVE: I believe that I did receive
Page 590
1 such a mortgage bond via email, I cannot recall if I
2 actually got the original document from Ebersohn & Grobler,
3 but they did at some stage send such a document on email.
4 ADV NEL: Yes. Dr Grieve, you mentioned
5 earlier certain complaints in respect of transactions that
6 were effected through Ebersohn & Grobler Attorneys.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: Can you remember if this was
9 one of the transactions that was regarded as a strange or
10 dubious transaction?
11 DR GRIEVE: I cannot recall which ones
12 were, but I am going to go on a limb here, and I would like
13 that to be noted, ja, I think this is one of them, and I am
14 going to go a bit further, and if I’ve got the wrong
15 transaction it will surface as we go through the other,
16 that I am sure you’ve got the records for, so I need
17 forgiveness if I get it wrong on this one.
18 ADV NEL: Yes, certainly.
20 DR GRIEVE: But I think what happened
21 was, obviously we had the four transactions done, and I
22 need to just give a bit of background so you can understand
23 if I am a bit confused which one was which. And obviously
24 we started to give them calls, asking for, how’s the
25 process going? And I am going to talk about this one as if
Page 591
1 I’ve got the facts in my head correct. You know, where’s
2 our money? You guys said that there was a bond being – a
3 bank bond being registered over the properties, so our
4 money’s due, where is it, what’s happening? And they just
5 ignored us and ignored us. And we carried on asking the
6 questions, and I went to go and see them, and we had that
7 fallout and then we started to try and contact the various
8 parties, and Tim du Toit was involved there at that stage,
9 and somewhere along the line, we got some sort of statement
10 or something that somebody had given us, either the client,
11 or what we got out of their file through Tim du Toit, and
12 it showed that some of the money had in fact not been paid
13 all to the client but that Ebersohn & Grobler had taken
14 now, I can’t remember the amounts but the idea was
15 something like, okay, it’s 850, we will keep 200 for
16 putting the transaction together, we will give, who was the
17 other character here? Paul Kotze 200 and then we will give
18 Mr Mathers the rest. So, and when we registered that,
19 that’s when I ran to the – when I picked that up, that’s
20 when I ran to the Law Society and said, there’s funny stuff
21 going on here. So, ja, and I think this was one of those
22 where there had been some funny stuff going on, or some
23 dubious stuff.
24 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, I have just been
25 handed the bond, the mortgage bond –

Page 592
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: - yes, it appears from it, just
3 from the first page that Paulus Kotze was the agent, duly
4 authorised agent of Mr Mathers –
5 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
6 ADV NEL: - in this regard. I didn’t see
7 when I looked through it earlier, whether there was an
8 actual power of attorney or some sort of letters of
9 authority, but we will, I will deal with that with Mr
10 Mathers himself. I just wanted to ask you, the
11 administration of Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty)
12 Limited –
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja?
14 ADV NEL: - did you keep individual files
15 on each transaction, or how would you – what was the record
16 keeping?
17 DR GRIEVE: If we get a transaction
18 coming in like this, typically print it out, have a look at
19 it, make sure that there’s an undertaking from the attorney
20 that we feel is valid –
21 ADV NEL: Yes.
22 DR GRIEVE: - and then we would approve
23 it, and pay the money out, and it would be put in a file.
24 Normally, we didn’t have hundreds of files or hundreds of
25 deal, so we would normally keep them in a couple of lever
Page 593
1 arch files, three or four of them, and I think if I recall
2 correctly, how we filed, it was pretty much attorney by
3 attorney that –
4 ADV NEL: I see.
5 DR GRIEVE: - that provided us with the
6 transactions.
7 ADV NEL: Yes. You know, just for our
8 edification, this particular sort of transaction, there was
9 a requirement that you would be repaid at a particular
10 time.
11 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
12 ADV NEL: Now, once that time or the
13 event occurs, that triggers the repayment, would you have a
14 diary system that says, you know, by the middle of next
15 month, we have to be repaid in respect of a particular
16 transaction.
17 DR GRIEVE: We wouldn’t necessarily
18 follow them up that aggressively, no. And we did not have
19 a specific diary system, no. Generally, that wasn’t
20 needed, because the majority of the attorneys, all the
21 preceding times and transactions, because they were all be
22 – get paid as soon as the bond is registered. I was
23 talking to the other right hand in Mr Grobler’s firm on a
24 regular basis.
25 COMMISSIONER: Who is this?
Page 594
1 DR GRIEVE: I am going to give you a name
2 in a moment, as soon as it comes back.
3 COMMISSIONER: That’s fine, okay.
4 DR GRIEVE: It’s the bond originator,
5 that actually sits with him in his offices, that was
6 working with him and for him and deurmekaar. I don’t
7 exactly know what – but she was the other right hand.
9 DR GRIEVE: There were two right hands.
10 And Esmé or Esmarie or something like that.
11 ADV NEL: What about Rietta Cronje.
12 DR GRIEVE: No, she was just, I am not
13 sure what her position was, she was just one of the back
14 office ladies that would send paper work through, so I
15 think she was just a pawn in the process. But I was
16 speaking to that specific lady on a regular basis and I was
17 being reassured all the time that there was this small
18 delay with registering a bank bond over the property, and
19 they were attending to it, and it was imminent, and if you
20 keep getting reassurance, you don’t push too hard. And
21 then obviously when we found out that there was some
22 untoward happenings with the way these payments had been
23 managed through the trust account, we started to take some
24 action. But no, we didn’t have a specific diary system,
25 back to the original question.
Page 595
1 ADV NEL: Did you have any personal
2 dealings with Mr Mathers at all?
3 DR GRIEVE: No. Not initially. We did
4 make attempts later on, when these monies were due, to
5 contact him directly but no, we did not have any personal
6 dealings, we dealt with the attorney, and I attempted to,
7 if I can use the term, very softly harass Mr Kotze for the
8 payments. I would follow up with him on a basis, where he
9 didn’t always answer the phone, but I would follow up with
10 him, and then either Vianta or the other lady that was in
11 the office, that bond originator lady, Esmé or Esmarie or
12 whatever her name was.
13 ADV NEL: Why did you follow up with Mr
14 Kotze and not Mr Mathers?
15 DR GRIEVE: I think, my understanding of
16 these transactions were that I would be speaking to the
17 representative. I was a proxy, or whatever you want to
18 give it. So that’s how I dealt with it. Can I give some
19 extra information -
20 COMMISSIONER: You may.
21 DR GRIEVE: - on this? I hope I’ve once
22 again got the right one of the four transactions. One of
23 these four I was also given extra assurance from Mr Grobler
24 and Vianta Naude that the transaction would definitely
25 happen in terms of this, that ands the next thing, and I

Page 596
1 was actually provided with a whole list of assets from Mr
2 Grobler himself that apparently this client was also a
3 friend of his, and I was given a whole letter and
4 statement, and all sorts of information pertaining to the
5 transaction on the matter, and I don’t see it in here
6 quickly, and that’s why I am just adding this, so that we
7 must go and scratch for it. It would have been added to
8 Tim du Toit’s file, I am sure, because that would have been
9 part of the stuff I would have given them to try and fight
10 for me with.
11 COMMISSIONER: You don’t still have it on
12 you laptop or anything?
13 DR GRIEVE: I can go, I can go and have a
14 look for it, because I know we had everything lifted by
15 Paul Marais and friends.
16 COMMISSIONER: Ja.
17 DR GRIEVE: - But I think the Ebersohn &
18 Grobler file if I go and speak to the right people at Tim
19 du Toit, maybe I can actually get it.
20 COMMISSIONER: Okay, that would be
21 helpful, thank you for that.
22 DR GRIEVE: If I do get it, how do I?
23 COMMISSIONER: Just send it through to Ms
24 Masterton.
25 DR GRIEVE: Ms Masterton. Okay, because
Page 597
1 I am sure I can find that. Why I think I might have an
2 extra copy of that somewhere, even if it’s on the computer
3 or wherever it is, I said to one of the colleagues just
4 now, I don’t know if it was André, off record about that
5 letter from the Law Society as well and I think that’s
6 altogether, whether it is.
7 COMMISSIONER: Oh, the letter that they
8 say that he’s been suspended.
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER: Mr Grobler has been
11 suspended.
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER: Okay, yes.
14 DR GRIEVE: So I might have that whole
15 thing, somewhere, I must just go and look.
16 COMMISSIONER: Please.
17 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, in terms of this
18 transaction, there appears to have been a cession of shares
19 to Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions by Paul Kotze or Paulus
20 Kotze.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: That doesn’t appear to be in
23 terms of a suretyship or any other document that I have.
24 DR GRIEVE: No, it was an attempt at a
25 later stage, after we realised that there’s stress on the
Page 598
1 transactions, to try and grab security wherever we could.
2 ADV NEL: Was this cession in writing?
3 DR GRIEVE: I am not sure.
4 ADV NEL: And that appears to be in
5 respect of a company called Nevada Sky Investments 10 (Pty)
6 Limited.
7 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
8 ADV NEL: Is that correct?
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
10 ADV NEL: And it was apparently 300
11 shares representing 30% of the issued shares in such
12 company.
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
14 ADV NEL: Did you ever try and realise
15 that shareholding?
16 DR GRIEVE: No. I would have been a
17 fruitless exercise, according to what I understood, because
18 it was also a promise of things to come, but it didn’t
19 happen.
20 COMMISSIONER: Who told you this now?
21 DR GRIEVE: It was various discussions
22 with all the various parties, it was an assumption I made
23 that they were supposed to have a whole load of trucks
24 coming through, and money was realising out of this and
25 that was also supposed to happen in that company, and
Page 599
1 nothing ever happened, so I don’t think that thing was ever
2 more than a shelf company. If I am wrong, fair enough,
3 that’s possible. But that was my understanding.
4 ADV NEL: But who told you this? Mr
5 Kotze?
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja, Mr Kotze, and he had some
7 lady partner which I can’t recall her name. She wasn’t
8 really party to the deal, but I mean, she also, when
9 questioned about the shares, also said no, nothing’s
10 happening there, so –
11 ADV NEL: Do you have contact details for
12 Mr Kotze?
13 DR GRIEVE: I am not 100% sure, I might
14 have, but if it’s made as an order, I could find wanting,
15 because the contact details are obviously now a year-and-a-
16 half or two years’ old.
17 ADV NEL: I understand.
18 DR GRIEVE: And I have not pushed on the
19 button for those contacts, and I am not even sure if I
20 still have them on my phone. I can have a quick look if we
21 can, you allow me to look quickly.
22 ADV NEL: When we adjourn –
23 COMMISSIONER: Ja, when we stand down, I
24 think it will be better, thank you.
25 DR GRIEVE: I can help you guys with the

Page 600
1 previous character, what was his name? Nick Pentz, I’ve
2 definitely still got his contact details, but –
3 ADV NEL: Thanks, we will try and get
4 those from you as well, we would appreciate that. The
5 company, Norgold Investments (Pty) Limited –
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes?
7 ADV NEL: Did Norgold provide financing
8 to Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions?
9 DR GRIEVE: That’s a very difficult
10 question for me to answer because technically I am not
11 quite sure if they have a claim against me. There was
12 funding provided here. What I did was, with them is there
13 were a couple of deals that I did not have money to
14 finance, and I basically introduced them to clients that
15 were looking for money, and allowed them to negotiate their
16 own deal. So there would have been three or four or five
17 such transactions that they would have done here.
18 [11:03] There may have been one or two transactions on my
19 book that they could have helped me with funding during the
20 course of the last year and a half in business here. I
21 can’t recall at what stage which was in, which one was out
22 and what their level of involvement was at what stage.
23 ADV NEL: And all the documentation that
24 would clarify all of this, where is that documentation?
25 MR GRIEVE: I believe that Norgold should
Page 601
1 be able to provide you with copies of whatever they’re
2 involved with.
3 COMMISSIONER: Who is the person at
4 Norgold?
5 MR GRIEVE: One of two people. Elaine –
6 I forget her surname, Elaine or Stephen Ward, they’re a
7 couple, but her surname is different.
8 COMMISSIONER: Do we have the correct
9 name of Norgold, or do we have the full name?
10 ADV NEL: What we have is Norgold
11 Investments (Pty) Ltd.
12 MR GRIEVE: Yes, as I recall it, it’s an
13 Namibian registration, so you’ll see it’s got a funny,
14 slightly different kind of registration number, unless
15 they’ve change that since then, but –
16 ADV NEL: Did you at any stage, Dr
17 Grieve, cede any rights of Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions to
18 Norgold?
19 MR GRIEVE: If I did, it would have been
20 specifically to the one or two transactions that they were
21 involved in.
22 ADV NEL: And those transactions, would
23 the agreement then be between Norgold and the recipient of
24 money, or would it be between Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions
25 and the ultimate recipient of money?
Page 602
1 MR GRIEVE: Okay, I’m going to answer
2 that almost the way I answered your first question and say
3 they did do a couple of deals, directly themselves, and
4 there were one or two transactions where, what you’ve just
5 said in your last sentence there, would have been true, ja,
6 where I would have perhaps channelled – no, I’m not sure –
7 I really can’t recall. I think they might still have paid
8 the money directly over to Ebersohn and Grobler, that could
9 have happened, but where the contract may have been with me
10 and the client and with me and Norgold, that could’ve
11 happened in one or two transactions, ja.
12 ADV NEL: And the documentation that
13 would show all of this, that Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions
14 ought to have kept, where are all those documents?
15 MR GRIEVE: That would have been in the
16 files that Paul Marais took.
17 ADV NEL: Thank you, Dr Grieve, that’s
18 all the questions I have relating to Mr Mathers at the
19 moment.
20 MR GRIEVE: Okay. I’d just like to add
21 that, once again, I’m pretty comfortable that Elaine and
22 Stephen were pretty pedantic about recordkeeping, so they
23 would also have a copy of whatever happened.
24 COMMISSIONER: Okay, well I think what
25 we’re going to do is I’m going to let you stand down now
Page 603
1 and then as you stand down, I think we need their contact
2 details. Would you still have their contact details for
3 us? Okay, let’s quickly put your phone on, we can go off
4 record, thank you.
6 [11:11] Thank you. Are we on record? Thank you, we are
7 on record. Mr Mathers, I just want to hear do you have a
8 cell phone on you?
9 MR MATHERS: Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER: Please switch it off for
11 us. It interferes with our transcription unfortunately.
12 MR MATHERS: Okay.
13 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. Mr
14 Mathers, your full names please?
15 MR MATHERS: Donald Arthur.
16 COMMISSIONER: Donald?
17 MR MATHERS: Donald Arthur.
18 COMMISSIONER: Do you have any objection
19 in taking the oath?
20 MR MATHERS: No, no objection.
22 hand, please swear that the evidence that you are about to
23 give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
24 truth, so Help you God.
25 MR MATHERS: So Help me God.

Page 604
1 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Mathers,
2 you would have noticed from your subpoena that you are
3 entitled to legal representation. Are you comfortable
4 speaking to us without legal representation?
5 MR MATHERS: Yes, the thing is, you know
6 I’m actually quite a bit in the dark about all this myself.
7 COMMISSIONER: Okay, we will try and
8 enlighten you as far as we can. Let me just explain to you
9 that this is a fact-finding mission, you either know the
10 answer or you don’t, or if at any stage you become
11 uncomfortable, please bring it to my attention and I’ll try
12 and assist you as far as I can.
13 MR MATHERS: Yes.
14 COMMISSIONER: Mr Nel will be asking you
15 questions and he’ll refresh your memory, okay?
16 MR MATHERS: Thank you.
17 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, let’s proceed.
18 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Mathers, can you
19 tell us what relationship you have with Mr Paul Kotze or
20 Paulus Kotze?
21 MR MATHERS: Actually this thing came to,
22 in the beginning, to my son-in-law, Mr, I don’t know maybe
23 if you know him, Dirk Bakker, who, sorry for this, he’s a
24 con artist.
25 COMMISSIONER: Oh I see, okay.
Page 605
1 MR MATHERS: And him and my daughter at
2 the moment, are busy getting divorced because of all the
3 nonsense that he went through.
4 COMMISSIONER: Okay, yes?
5 MR MATHERS: And he approached me to see
6 if he could try and get money, that if he can get a certain
7 amount, I can’t remember exactly what the amount was, that
8 he can open up a credit line. And of the credit line, what
9 he can get there, he can borrow on that and pay back what
10 he borrowed on my, whatever.
11 COMMISSIONER: Okay, can you be a bit
12 more specific?
13 MR MATHERS: Then he got hold of, that’s
14 when this Paul Kotze came into the business, yes. If Paul
15 Kotze had to walk in here now I don’t think I’d know who he
16 is, I’ve seen him once or twice.
18 MR MATHERS: And this came about with
19 him. Then he got hold of me one day and said that due to
20 this, trying to get finance to open a credit line, if I was
21 willing, that I don’t have to come up to Jo’burg, if he can
22 get authority, you see, to arrange anything and he can sign
23 for it, but that was supposed to be, anything that had to
24 be done what he wanted to do, he had to get hold of me
25 first, fax me whatever and I would read it through and okay
Page 606
1 it, which I’ve heard from this man for more than a year
2 now.
4 MR MATHERS: We’ve been trying to get
5 hold of him, we used to phone his office, whatever, they
6 would tell us no, he’s over in Germany or he’s gone away
7 for two weeks on business or whatever, we could not get
8 hold of this man to find out what is going on.
9 Then eventually I heard that he went into the
10 trucking business and he bought trucks and all that, I
11 don’t know how many trucks he bought, and that’s about as
12 far as I can go with all this. Since then I have not heard
13 anything for more than a year.
14 COMMISSIONER: Okay, well Mr Nel will
15 take you through the documentation. Thank you.
16 MR MATHERS: I know I signed, I gave him
17 authority, but he had to come back to me first to explain
18 to me what he needed to do to carry on with whatever, so I
19 didn’t actually go, you know I am from Durban, to fly back
20 and forward all the time –
21 COMMISSIONER: Yes, that’s not –
22 MR MATHERS: For work and all that.
23 ADV NEL: I understand. Mr Mathers, so
24 you gave the authority to Paulus Kotze, not to your son-in-
25 law?
Page 607
1 MR MATHERS: No, Paul Kotze.
2 ADV NEL: Yes. I’m going to pass you a
3 copy of a document, sorry, that is the Special Power of
4 Attorney. If you look on the next page your name is typed
5 there as Donald Arthur Mathers.
6 MR MATHERS: That’s correct.
7 ADV NEL: Is that your signature?
8 MR MATHERS: That is my signature, yes.
9 As I said just now I gave him authority.
10 ADV NEL: And that was signed in Durban
11 North, July 2008.
12 MR MATHERS: Correct.
13 ADV NEL: I see there’s two witnesses
14 there.
15 MR MATHERS: Yes, that was the people
16 that I went to sign in the office I went to sign at the
17 attorneys there.
18 ADV NEL: So you went to sign at a firm
19 of attorneys?
20 MR MATHERS: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: Was that a Durban firm of
22 attorneys?
23 MR MATHERS: Well it must have been, yes.
24 ADV NEL: Was it Tait Nolan & Knight?
25 MR MATHERS: That’s correct, yes.

Page 608
1 ADV NEL: If you look at that Special
2 Power of Attorney, it says there that you nominate Paul
3 Kotze to be your lawful agent and attorney and on your
4 behalf to sign all the necessary documentation to effect
5 transfer of Erf 2804 Queensborough Extension 14.
6 MR MATHERS: Mm-hm.
7 ADV NEL: And to register a first
8 mortgage bond in a maximum amount of R1 million over the
9 property and to authorise payments made from that R1
10 million. Do you see that?
12 COMMISSIONER: You have to say yes or no
13 for us please.
14 MR MATHERS: You see there, look I blame
15 myself here because I probably didn’t read the whole thing,
16 you know, because the man was so genuine and all that, that
17 he would come back to me first, explain to me what he’s
18 doing it for.
19 ADV NEL: You see, Mr Mathers, I know
20 what flowed from this is an amount of R850 000 was advanced
21 by this company, called Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions as
22 bridging finance and that money has never been repaid.
23 MR MATHERS: Yes, well actually the first
24 I ever, when I heard about this was when I got a letter
25 from it must be Bridges or whatever, explaining that they
Page 609
1 have never received a payment from me but I didn’t know
2 that it’s already been done, that he’s already taken the
3 loan out or whatever. But I heard that he took two loans
4 out.
5 ADV NEL: I’m just talking what I heard.
6 MR MATHERS: 148 and 146, now I don’t
7 know if that is correct or what. But now the thing is,
8 what I can’t understand is, to take, surely to give a loan
9 on property, people must inspect the property first and
10 nobody’s ever been to my place to inspect the place. I’ve
11 never had anybody come to my place or phone me and say
12 look, make an appointment with me, I want to come and check
13 the house, I’ve never had anybody there.
14 ADV NEL: Yes, Mr Mathers, just to try
15 and assist you, what appears to have happened is that a
16 mortgage bond was taken out over the property and that
17 would be enough for the lender, that would be enough
18 security for the lender, so the lender may not be bothered
19 to inspect your property, it would probably be satisfied
20 that a mortgage bond of R1 million –
21 MR MATHERS: I’m just saying what I feel,
22 you know I don’t know the actual –
23 ADV NEL: No, I appreciate that, I’m just
24 trying to explain what may or may not have occurred. But
25 just, did you receive any documents other than signing that
Page 610
1 Power of Attorney from –
2 MR MATHERS: I only got the copies of
3 these, which I gave to Mr Bert Van Zyl. He was working
4 with the lawyer up here in Jo’burg, he’s are from Durban,
5 Umhlanga Rocks side.
6 ADV NEL: Okay, did you go and see Mr Van
7 Zyl for assistance?
8 MR MATHERS: No, he came to me because
9 he’s a lawyer that he was working with, asked him to come
10 and see me. That’s why, I asked if my daughter could come
11 and assist me because she knows more about this than what I
12 do, you see?
13 ADV NEL: Yes.
14 MR MATHERS: Because she was married to
15 this Bakker, it actually started from that side there.
16 ADV NEL: Right.
17 MR MATHERS: Not that she’s involved.
18 ADV NEL: I understand.
19 COMMISSIONER: Well if your daughter has
20 knowledge, then I’m going to ask her if she has any
21 objection, once I’ve excused you, to answer –
22 MR MATHERS: I don’t think she’ll have
23 any objection. She says she’s forgotten a lot but you
24 might, you are bringing things out that I’ve forgotten or
25 whatever.
Page 611
1 ADV NEL: Sure.
2 MR MATHERS: Maybe you can just refresh
3 her memory –
4 COMMISSIONER: Yes, I’ll definitely –
5 MR MATHERS: You see what I’ve got here,
6 I’ve got this Mr Van Zyl’s telephone number, everything,
7 and she knows the lawyer, I think she’s got a converse with
8 him, the actual lawyer that was with Mr Van Zyl, you see.
9 And there I feel she can give more information.
10 ADV NEL: Was Mr Van Zyl an attorney or?
11 MR MATHERS: No, he’s not an attorney, he
12 helps, he’s good friends or whatever and he helps me out a
13 lot. He’s like to me, like you see something like this.
14 ADV NEL: Okay.
15 MR MATHERS: But I could be wrong but
16 that’s the opinion I’ve got of him. He’s a very nice
17 gentleman. He tried to help me as far as he can.
18 ADV NEL: Can I –
19 MR MATHERS: And he said anything that
20 goes, happens, I must straight away let him know. When I
21 received this from the sheriff to appear as a witness, I
22 notified him straight away. He said if anything comes
23 further from this we must just notify him, then he will
24 probably notify his lawyer friend in there.
25 ADV NEL: I see.

Page 612
1 MR MATHERS: In Jo’burg here, you see, my
2 daughter knows this lawyer.
3 ADV NEL: Okay. Can I ask you, Mr
4 Mathers, I noticed on the back of that slip of paper you’ve
5 got, a phone number for Mr Van Zyl.
6 MR MATHERS: Yes.
7 ADV NEL: Could you give that to us and
8 then we can also try, or you can just read it to us, that’s
9 fine?
10 MR MATHERS: Okay. 082, he’s actually
11 Bert, B-E-R-T Van Zyl, 0824946861. Let me just see if I
12 gave it to you right, if you don’t mind.
13 COMMISSIONER: 082 494 6861.
14 MR MATHERS: That’s correct, yes, that’s
15 the number I’ve got.
16 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Mathers, there’s
17 a file in front of you and there should be a section there,
18 that page should be numbered, I think that’s probably
19 number 1 in front of you.
20 MR MATHERS: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: Do you see that? I’m going to
22 ask you just to turn to page 8. Do you have that?
23 MR MATHERS: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: You’ll see that that’s a
25 Purchase of Bond Proceeds Agreement between Dr D S Grieve
Page 613
1 Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited and yourself.
3 ADV NEL: Is that your identity number
4 that appears just below your name there?
5 MR MATHERS: That’s correct. Yes, that’s
6 correct.
7 ADV NEL: Now if you turn to page 14 of
8 that document.
9 MR MATHERS: Yes?
10 ADV NEL: Above the words “For and on
11 behalf of the Mortgagee” you’ll see there’s a signature, is
12 that your signature?
13 MR MATHERS: On this here?
14 ADV NEL: Yes.
15 MR MATHERS: There’s no signature there.
16 ADV NEL: No, the signature that appears
17 above that.
18 MR MATHERS: My signature is not on here.
19 ADV NEL: So your signature does not
20 appear on that page?
21 MR MATHERS: Not on this page, yes.
22 ADV NEL: Do you know whose signature
23 that is, by –
24 MR MATHERS: I have no idea, no idea.
25 ADV NEL: So this agreement I showed you
Page 614
1 that starts at page 8 to 14, you never signed this
2 agreement?
3 MR MATHERS: No, this is definitely not
4 my signature here.
5 ADV NEL: Have you ever seen this
6 document before?
7 MR MATHERS: No.
8 ADV NEL: An amount of R850 000 was paid
9 out by Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions to attorneys by the
10 name of Ebersohn & Grobler, who indicated that they were
11 acting on your behalf.
12 MR MATHERS: I don’t even know that, it’s
13 the first time I’ve heard their name now.
14 ADV NEL: Yes. Did you receive any of
15 this R850 000?
16 MR MATHERS: I received R100 000 and I
17 thought now everything is coming right because of the,
18 remember in the beginning I said he was trying to open a
19 credit line?
20 ADV NEL: Yes.
21 MR MATHERS: And that now things are
22 going to come right, that he’s now going, out of the
23 business that he went into, I’m getting my share of that.
24 So –
25 ADV NEL: Sorry to interrupt you, Mr
Page 615
1 Mathers. I just want to find out, when you say he, is this
2 Mr Kotze?
3 MR MATHERS: Mr Kotze.
4 ADV NEL: Mr Kotze?
5 MR MATHERS: Kotze, yes.
6 ADV NEL: Now you say you were going to
7 get your share, what investment had you made?
8 MR MATHERS: Well actually, I don’t
9 understand exactly but he was going to invest but I only
10 heard afterwards what he did, he bought trucks or whatever,
11 with the money that he got, that’s what I heard.
12 ADV NEL: But did you give him money?
13 MR MATHERS: I never gave him any money.
14 ADV NEL: But where would he then get
15 money to pay you?
16 MR MATHERS: That was what he probably
17 got off the mortgaging, or whatever, the house and getting
18 enough money to open a credit line, which I was told he
19 wants to do, and once he gets a credit line opened, he can
20 borrow X amount on that to pay back what he loaned and he
21 can carry on, or he can start a thing there.
22 ADV NEL: So were you aware that he had
23 received money?
24 MR MATHERS: I wasn’t, no, no, I wasn’t
25 even, I never, we had a short meeting one day, I went up to

Page 616
1 visit my children in Kempton Park. And then out of the
2 blue they told me that there’s going to be a meeting there,
3 at my one son’s house, which I never knew of. And then
4 some lawyer came there, I don’t know what his name was, I
5 think he’s probably with the people that loaned him the
6 money, whatever and then it came out that this was to do
7 with all this business, I didn’t even know they were going
8 to have a meeting there.
9 ADV NEL: Right.
10 MR MATHERS: And our lawyer came with his
11 secretary and Mr Kotze.
12 COMMISSIONER: Who was the lawyer?
13 MR MATHERS: Oh, I don’t know.
14 COMMISSIONER: Grobler?
15 MR MATHERS: I wouldn’t swear to that.
16 COMMISSIONER: Okay, I understand that.
17 Okay, you say –
18 MR MATHERS: You know I was caught out of
19 the blue there, I didn’t even know there was going to be
20 such a thing, I was so shocked when I heard what was
21 happening.
22 COMMISSIONER: Shocked about what, what
23 happened?
24 MR MATHERS: What this man was doing,
25 without coming to me and telling me exactly what he was
Page 617
1 going to do.
3 MR MATHERS: I understand I signed here
4 and I gave him authorisation but I mean, he was supposed to
5 come back to me first before he really did anything, come
6 back to me, fax me or whatever, I would have just said
7 okay, go ahead, whatever.
8 COMMISSIONER: Okay. So where was this
9 meeting, at whose son, what is your son’s name?
10 MR MATHERS: My son’s name is also
11 Arthur, they call me Arthur, I’m Arthur, my son is Arthur.
12 COMMISSIONER: And who set up this
13 meeting?
14 MR MATHERS: I’m not sure, I’m not sure,
15 like I say I was taken, I didn’t even know what’s going to
16 happen. If it was my daughter or what, I don’t know, but
17 she wasn’t there at the meeting.
18 COMMISSIONER: Is that your daughter
19 sitting outside?
20 MR MATHERS: Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER: Okay, we’ll ask her –
22 MR MATHERS: She was married, well
23 they’re actually they’re getting divorced and of course
24 they can’t find this chappie now, he’s disappeared.
25 COMMISSIONER: Who’s now, who’s now this
Page 618
1 chappie now?
2 MR MATHERS: Bakker, she can’t find him
3 because they’re busy getting divorced and she can’t get
4 hold of him to finalise the divorce and all that now,
5 because she kicked him out.
6 ADV NEL: Mr Mather –
7 MR MATHERS: He got away with everything.
8 She was married before and he’s a total person now, the
9 consequences, it’s [inaudible] for me, you know what I’m
10 getting at? God told him that this is now, this is going
11 to be his future wife, whatever.
12 COMMISSIONER: Okay, let’s not
13 transgress, digress, I’m sorry.
14 MR MATHERS: So this is how all this came
15 about because he is, to use that word again, a con artist,
16 and he’s so smooth because you believe every, when he talks
17 to you, this man knows what he’s doing, hey, he’s good,
18 he’s going to look after you and all that.
19 ADV NEL: Mr Mathers, when you received
20 this amount of R100 000 didn’t you question where it came
21 from?
22 MR MATHERS: No, I found out it came from
23 him. As I said just now, I thought now things were coming
24 to an end to a point now where everything be sorted out,
25 you see.
Page 619
1 ADV NEL: But what, I’m sorry to
2 interrupt you, I just need to take it step by step. You
3 receive R100 000 from Mr Kotze, is that correct?
4 MR MATHERS: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: When you received that
6 R100 000, were you aware at that stage that Mr Kotze had
7 already received R850 000?
8 MR MATHERS: Yes, well I thought well
9 then he must have got the money because all –
10 COMMISSIONER: Mr Mathers, hang on, hang
11 on, listen to me carefully. You have to listen to the
12 question and you’re saying I thought and I suppose. If you
13 don’t know, you don’t know.
15 COMMISSIONER: We’re taking this step by
16 step, okay, so listen carefully to what Mr Nel’s asking you
17 and then we take it otherwise we’re going to be sitting
18 here all day, okay?
20 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please just
21 repeat your question.
22 ADV NEL: Mr Mathers, what I asked you
23 was at the time when you received the R100 000, were you
24 aware at that stage that Mr Kotze had already received
25 R850 000?

Page 620
1 MR MATHERS: I was not aware that he had
2 received that amount of money.
3 ADV NEL: Were you aware that he had
4 received any money based on that Power of Attorney you
5 signed?
6 MR MATHERS: Yes, I’m going to say I was
7 under the impression that he received money, that he is now
8 sorting things out.
9 ADV NEL: Yes.
10 MR MATHERS: That he has got, when I said
11 that needed X amount to open a credit account, that he now
12 received money, now he’s going to, he’s already applied for
13 another loan which he was going to pay everything back now,
14 which I was told that was going to happen.
15 ADV NEL: Did he tell you, did Mr Kotze
16 tell you that he received this money based on –
17 MR MATHERS: I never heard from him
18 again.
19 ADV NEL: No, no, at the time when he
20 gave you R100 000, did you, did he tell you that he
21 received money which you referred to as for the credit line
22 based on that Power of Attorney that you’d signed?
23 MR MATHERS: He never said anything to me
24 about that.
25 ADV NEL: But surely when you received
Page 621
1 R100 000 you must have thought that I’m only receiving this
2 R100 000 because Mr Kotze has borrowed money based on the
3 Power of Attorney I gave him?
4 MR MATHERS: I don’t know, I was just
5 notified that Mr Kotze had paid R100 000 into my bank
6 account.
7 ADV NEL: Yes.
8 MR MATHERS: And that is as far as it
9 went. From then on I could not contact, I could not get
10 hold of this man anywhere, for more than a year now, since
11 that started, since that money was paid in.
12 ADV NEL: But Mr Mathers, the idea, this
13 entire concept of giving Mr Kotze funding so that he could
14 start a credit line, involved or required you to make some
15 form of investment.
16 [11:31] I mean didn’t Mr Kotze say you must sign this
17 power of attorney – you don’t have to come up from Durban –
18 so that he can raise funding?
19 MR MATHERS: Yes, but first notify me
20 exactly what he was going to do that I could okay, that I
21 would know what he is now going to do.
22 ADV NEL: Yes.
23 MR MATHERS: You see, even, although he’s
24 already got now the authority –
25 ADV NEL: No, I understand.
Page 622
1 MR MATHERS: Because over and above that
2 he was supposed to contact me.
3 ADV NEL: Yes, and he never contact you,
4 never got the authority –
5 MR MATHERS: I’ve, never ever anything,
6 no.
7 ADV NEL: The next thing you hear is you
8 receive R100,000.
9 MR MATHERS: Yes, and that he’s bought a
10 truck or trucks or, I don’t know, don’t even know what all
11 he bought.
12 ADV NEL: But once you received this
13 R100,000 don’t, I mean didn’t you question why you are
14 receiving R100,000 if you haven’t even invested anything?
15 All you did was sign a piece of paper.
16 MR MATHERS: But that is the reason why,
17 as I said we could not get hold of the man. He’s either
18 away for two, three weeks, or he’s gone over to Germany or
19 whatever. So that was his secretary now because we could
20 never get him on the phone to find out what’s going on.
21 ADV NEL: Why were you trying to get hold
22 of him? What did you want to ask him?
23 MR MATHERS: To find out exactly what is
24 going on now, if things are now developing, coming right as
25 was explained to us in the beginning what is going to
Page 623
1 happen.
2 ADV NEL: Yes.
3 MR MATHERS: You see with him paying back
4 the loan that he got because having now – I’m repeating
5 myself again – opened a credit line he can now get more
6 credit on the credit line to pay back what he loaned and I
7 was never, I never knew the amount that he had received
8 from my sale, or for my house, on it.
9 ADV NEL: But were you aware that he was
10 receiving amounts based on the security of your property
11 down in Scottborough?
12 MR MATHERS: At that moment no, I did not
13 know that he’d already got any money.
14 ADV NEL: When did you find that out?
15 MR MATHERS: Well as soon as I got that,
16 that money was paid into my account then we, I think if I
17 remember correctly there was a letter telling us, from
18 Kotze, but as I say from then on we could not get hold of
19 him to exactly find out what is going on.
20 ADV NEL: Yes, but you then received a
21 letter from Mr Kotze telling you that –
22 MR MATHERS: From his secretary, ja.
23 ADV NEL: From his secretary, advising
24 you that he had raised finance based on your property in
25 Scottborough as security. Is that what the letter

Page 624
1 indicated?
2 MR MATHERS: No, there’s nothing like
3 that. Honestly, nothing like that. Just that there was so
4 much, X-amount paid into my account.
5 ADV NEL: No, but I asked you when you
6 found out that he had raised money based on the security of
7 your property in Scottborough and you said when you
8 received a letter from him.
9 MR MATHERS: There was no suggestion
10 where the, where he has got the money from but I was under
11 the impression that he had come right with whatever he was
12 basically –
13 ADV NEL: But when you say “come right,”
14 Mr Mathers, what do you mean? That he had obtained funding
15 based on your property as security or –
16 MR MATHERS: Well he must have got the
17 property, the money off my property yes.
18 ADV NEL: Didn’t it concern you as to how
19 he did it and when he did it and why he did it without
20 notifying you?
21 MR MATHERS: But we couldn’t get hold of
22 him to, for him to explain to us what is, what was going
23 on. We’ve tried, we did so many calls, whatever, and he
24 was never there to enlighten us
25 ADV NEL: When did you find out, Mr
Page 625
1 Mathers, that an amount of R850,000 had been raised based
2 on your property in Scottborough?
3 MR MATHERS: That was months after all
4 this when I received a letter from wherever he got the
5 money from, telling me that there’s, X-amount was borrowed
6 and I have not made a payment on it.
7 ADV NEL: So who did you receive that
8 letter from? Can you remember?
9 MR MATHERS: You see all my documentation
10 and everything is Paul, Bertus got, he came, when he came
11 to me. He wanted to get the stuff so he can take it up to
12 the lawyer in Jo’burg.
13 COMMISSIONER: So you have no
14 documentation in your –
15 MR MATHERS: I’ve got no documentation.
16 I even checked at home and everything now but he’s got all
17 the documentation.
18 ADV NEL: Okay, just I understand –
19 MR MATHERS: Even those letters that I
20 received telling me that I haven’t made a payment on it and
21 I was so, I didn’t even know that I, to me it was – ja.
22 ADV NEL: Can I just, I understand you
23 don’t have the documents but did the letter come from Dr DS
24 Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited?
25 MR MATHERS: I think it’s Bridging
Page 626
1 Solutions, ja.
2 ADV NEL: It didn’t come from an
3 attorney?
4 MR MATHERS: No, I’m sure it’s, no I’m
5 talking under correction.
6 ADV NEL: I’m just asking. I don’t –
7 MR MATHERS: Yes, yes, no I realise that.
8 ADV NEL: If I had the document I’d show
9 it to you.
10 MR MATHERS: Ja. Because I think there,
11 if a person gets hold of Mr Van Zyl I think more answers
12 will come out.
13 ADV NEL: I’m going to ask you just in
14 that bundle to turn to page 25. That’s a letter addressed
15 to you by a firm of attorneys called Tim Du Toit Attorneys.
16 MR MATHERS: Ja, that is a letter I
17 received.
18 ADV NEL: Is this the letter you
19 received?
20 MR MATHERS: Yes, yes.
21 ADV NEL: And that’s the one that says 13
22 October last year, 2009, that you’re required to make
23 payment of this amount?
24 MR MATHERS: Yes, and it’s the first
25 time, the first I ever heard of that, that owing all this.
Page 627
1 It was the first time I received anything from them. And
2 since then, I tell you, almost a year I’ve not heard a
3 murmur from anybody in connection with all this, nothing
4 whatsoever.
5 ADV NEL: And this records that an amount
6 of 1,449 –
7 MR MATHERS: Ja.
8 ADV NEL: - million is due and owing
9 based on a mortgage bond over the property.
10 MR MATHERS: Ja.
11 COMMISSIONER: When you received this
12 letter did you go and see an attorney?
13 MR MATHERS: We got – you see there, as I
14 said now my daughter might have more answers than me
15 because it was all through her husband, you know, and she,
16 because I can’t exactly remember what we did after going –
17 but I know we went to, I can’t say who we contacted or
18 whatever.
19 COMMISSIONER: Did you make arrangements
20 to pay the amount?
21 MR MATHERS: No, I couldn’t. As I say I
22 was, I didn’t even know what was going on at that moment.
23 I just got, out of the blue I get a letter like this
24 telling me that I owe money, I’ve never made a payment on
25 it. And then to, we still tried to find out, because I

Page 628
1 wanted to sell my house because I can’t afford to stay
2 there anymore, not with the salary I’m earning, and when we
3 went to see some, there was a lawyer in – don’t ask me her
4 name now because we just went there once and she said look,
5 she’ll just find out for me what’s going on, what, what,
6 this and this, and then that she won’t be able to take the
7 case because, you know, and then she phoned and found out
8 but there’s a thing on my house where I could not sell my
9 house.
10 COMMISSIONER: A bond?
11 MR MATHERS: Ja.
12 COMMISSIONER: A mortgage bond?
13 MR MATHERS: Ja.
14 COMMISSIONER: Why can’t she take the
15 case?
16 MR MATHERS: I don’t know. I don’t know.
18 MR MATHERS: I see, like I say there
19 could be a lot of more answers from this Mr Bert also to,
20 him and his lawyer, because they were busy with this, with
21 this Mr Kotze also.
22 COMMISSIONER: I don’t understand how Mr
23 Bert Van Zyl fits in. I’m still at a bit of a loss.
24 MR MATHERS: Well according to him, the
25 lawyer in Jo’burg asked him because him being near, nearby,
Page 629
1 to come and see me.
2 COMMISSIONER: Okay, we’ll ask your
3 daughter.
4 ADV NEL: Did Mr Van Zyl tell you who the
5 lawyer in Johannesburg was?
6 MR MATHERS: My daughter just mentioned
7 his name again. Like I say, look I’m not trying to push
8 everything onto her –
9 ADV NEL: No, we understand.
10 MR MATHERS: But like I say she might
11 have more answers that you are looking for.
12 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Mathers, just
13 one thing troubles us a little bit and this is quite a
14 serious letter –
15 MR MATHERS: No, I agree with that.
16 ADV NEL: - you received on 13 October that says
17 you owe R1,5 million. What exactly did you do once you
18 received this letter?
19 MR MATHERS: I can’t remember anything
20 now.
21 ADV NEL: Did you go and see somebody?
22 Did you tell your daughter?
23 MR MATHERS: I contacted my daughter to
24 find out what was going on, yes.
25 COMMISSIONER: Are you sure? Because 10
Page 630
1 minutes ago you said to us you went to see an attorney.
2 MR MATHERS: No, no, I mentioned, we just
3 went to find out what we can do but we didn’t actually, we
4 showed her all the things and she said look, it’s out of
5 her hands because I’ve signed the property over and she
6 can’t take the case further. But then she phoned and found
7 out that there’s a bond and everything on the house, I
8 cannot sell it, because I wanted to know if I could sell my
9 house. That is, that’s the only thing. I don’t think we
10 were in her office for half an hour, so there’s actually
11 nothing to do there. I thought I could maybe manage to get
12 some information from her, which I never got.
13 ADV NEL: And after she told you, this
14 attorney told you that there was a bond registered over
15 your property, did you try and do anything about that?
16 MR MATHERS: Yes, that’s when I contacted
17 my daughter and that to find out what’s going on and then
18 they were involved with this lawyer, as far as I know with
19 this lawyer in Jo’burg and that’s where we came about to
20 meet this Bert, get hold of this Bert.
21 ADV NEL: Thank you, Mr Mathers. I have
22 no further questions for you.
23 MR MATHERS: Now can I ask something?
24 Now tell me if Mr Kotze now, he used the funds to buy
25 vehicles, you know a truck and all that, what happens to
Page 631
1 all this now? I mean actually, that should actually be
2 mine, not so?
3 ADV NEL: Mr Mathers, all I can say to
4 you and perhaps the commissioner can tell you exactly the
5 same thing, is that you’ll have to, you know, get some sort
6 of legal advice, your own independent legal representation.
7 MR MATHERS: I can’t afford it, not on my
8 salary.
9 ADV NEL: You may have to then try and
10 approach the Legal Aid Board. Certain of the universities
11 have free legal clinics, but that’s really all I can tell
12 you at the moment.
13 MR MATHERS: Ja.
14 ADV NEL: And you can contact the Law
15 Society. They have programmes where attorneys render their
16 services at very low cost or in certain instances for
17 nothing. But that’s all I can advise you. I can’t advise
18 you legally, none of us can advise you legally on what you
19 should do.
20 MR MATHERS: No, I accept that.
21 ADV NEL: You’d have to get your own
22 legal representation and as I say contact the Law Society
23 or universities or the Legal Aid Board. Sorry Madam
24 Commissioner, I interrupted you.
25 COMMISSIONER: No, absolutely. No –

Page 632
1 MR MATHERS: Can I ask now, the stuff
2 that this Mr Kotze bought, that stuff, surely that can be
3 repossessed or whatever and sold or whatever?
4 COMMISSIONER: Mr Mathers, Mr Nel has now
5 said to you exactly what you have to do. We can’t advise
6 you on any matter.
7 MR MATHERS: Okay.
8 COMMISSIONER: Okay, but I agree with Mr
9 Nel that you do need independent legal advice and I think
10 sooner rather than later, and I think what, if I may
11 suggest something, that I excuse Mr Mathers and that I ask
12 his daughter if she can perhaps assist us.
13 ADV NEL: Please.
14 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Mathers.
15 I’m going to excuse you and then I’m going to walk out with
16 you and just ask your daughter if she’s prepared to come
17 under oath.
19 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. Can we –
20 ADV NEL: Thank you, Mr Mathers.
21 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Haroon, would
22 you mind just walking with me?
23 MR LAHER: Sure.
25 [11:46] ADV NEL: Would you like some water or –
Page 633
1 MS BAKKER: No, no, I’m fine, thanks. I
2 just had something outside before I came here.
3 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, we’re back on
4 record. We have Mrs Vivian Bakker or –
5 MS BAKKER: Bakker.
6 COMMISSIONER: Bakker, excellent, with
7 us. Mrs Bakker, as I explained to you outside you are not
8 under subpoena. There’s no obligation on you to answer our
9 questions but you very kindly volunteered to assist us with
10 what information you can still remember and that is
11 basically, this is a fact finding mission. You are
12 entitled to legal representation but as I said you either
13 know the answer or you don’t and as I explained to you your
14 dad did refer us to you because he was unsure of people’s
15 names and the chronological sequence of events which we’re
16 battling to understand what really happened from him. So
17 if that’s still the case and you are prepared to help us
18 then I’m going to ask you to take the oath. Do you have
19 any objection to take the oath?
20 MS BAKKER: No, I don’t.
22 hand. Do you swear that the evidence that you are about to
23 give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
24 the truth, “so help me God?”
25 MS BAKKER: d.s.s.
Page 634
1 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. This
2 is Mr Nel. He’s an advocate and he’ll be asking you the
3 questions.
4 MS BAKKER: Alright.
5 COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
6 ADV NEL: Thank you, Mrs Bakker. Can I
7 ask you just to start off with Mr Paul Kotze, Paulus Kotze?
8 Do you know Mr Kotze?
9 MS BAKKER: Yes, I do. I actually met
10 him through Dirk Bakker, the man I married just over four
11 years ago.
12 ADV NEL: Okay.
13 MS BAKKER: He was trying to do business
14 with Mr Paul Kotze and he kind of brought him into our
15 lives.
16 ADV NEL: And if you look to your right
17 there, there’s a document, it’s a special power of
18 attorney.
19 MS BAKKER: Yes?
20 ADV NEL: That was signed by your father,
21 Mr Mathers. You’ll see his signature on the second page of
22 that document.
23 MS BAKKER: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: He has told us that he signed
25 this document and it was provided to him by Mr Kotze. Were
Page 635
1 you aware that your father was signing this document?
2 MS BAKKER: I was aware that he was going
3 to sign a document but I never saw the document. I
4 actually asked Mr Paul Kotze to email it to me so I can see
5 what it is that my dad is going to be signing, but I never
6 received it and then the next minute I heard my dad signed
7 it and I was under the impression that he signed a, not a
8 full power of attorney, but unfortunately later I had to
9 find out that it was a full power of attorney that he gave
10 Mr Kotze.
11 ADV NEL: Okay. Did Mr Kotze tell you or
12 Mr Mathers the purpose that he required this power of
13 attorney for?
14 MS BAKKER: He wanted to get money
15 against my dad’s house because he was trying to open a
16 credit line and I thought that’s, at that stage it would be
17 a good thing because my dad didn’t really have a pension
18 fund and I thought it would be a way for him if he, you
19 know to have something so he can retire one day.
20 ADV NEL: Yes.
21 MS BAKKER: And so I was under the
22 impression that it was a good thing. Unfortunately I had
23 to find out later it was a big scam.
24 ADV NEL: So the idea was that Mr
25 Mathers’ property down in Scottborough would be used as

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 3 - 9 December 2010

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 3 - 9 December 2010

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Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 3 - 9 December 2010