Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 3 - 8 February 2011

RealTime Transcriptions
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TRANSCRIPTION OF THE
INSOLVENCY INQUIRY
IN TERMS OF SECTION 417, 418 OF THE COMPANIES ACT
INTO THE AFFAIRS OF THE INSOLVENT ESTATE OF
DRS DS GRIEVES BRIDGING SOLUTIONS
(PTY) LIMITED
(IN LIQUIDATION)
MASTERS REFERENCE T0240/10
BEFORE
MS R BEKKER
HELD ON
08 FEBRUARY 2011 PAGES 729 TO 782
HELD AT
BOWMAN GILFILLAN, WEST STREET, SANDTON
© REALTIME TRANSCRIPTIONS

8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry
Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
Page 729
1 [PROCEEDINGS ON 8 JANUARY 2011]
2 [09:37] PRESIDING OFFICER: Today is the 8th of
3 February 2011. We are proceeding with our inquiry in the
4 matter of Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited in
5 liquidation. The parties present, to my right is the
6 counsel from the Johannesburg Bar, Mr G J Nel. Mr Nel is
7 instructed by Mr Haroon Laher of Bowman Gilfillan and Ms
8 Bianca Masterton, and Ms Nabeelah Kathrada is assisting Mr
9 Laher from Bowman Gilfillan. We have Mr Norman Kagan who
10 is doing our transcription for us and then our first
11 witness this morning is Mr Botha. Good morning, Mr Botha.
12 I believe you are from RMB Bank, is that correct?
13 MR BOTHA: That is correct, yes.
14 PRESIDING OFFICER: You’ve brought us
15 bank statements. I am just going to place you under oath
16 so that you can just hand in the bank statements for us.
17 MR BOTHA: Sure.
18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Are you comfortable
19 in English?
20 MR BOTHA: Yes.
21 PRESIDING OFFICER: Your full names,
22 please?
23 MR BOTHA: Jan Hendrik Botha.
24 PRESIDING OFFICER: Any objection in
25 taking the oath?
Page 730
1 MR BOTHA: No.
2 PRESIDING OFFICER: Please raise your
3 right hand. Please swear that the evidence that you are
4 about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and
5 nothing but the truth, so help me God?
6 JAN HENDRIK BOTHA: d.s.s.
7 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much.
8 Please proceed, Mr Nel?
9 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr
10 Botha, I understand that you have been requested to bring
11 certain bank statements relating to the bank account of Mr
12 Percy Masinga to this inquiry.
13 MR BOTHA: That is correct.
14 ADV NEL: Do you have those bank
15 statements with you?
16 MR BOTHA: Yes, I have been requested to
17 provide you with the statements regarding P M Masinga.
18 ADV NEL: Yes.
19 MR BOTHA: He’s only got a credit card
20 account with us in his personal capacity.
21 ADV NEL: Can I just ask you, Mr Botha,
22 while you are dealing with that credit card, when was that
23 credit card account opened?
24 MR BOTHA: Okay, he accepted the facility
25 on 27 February 2009.
Page 731
1 ADV NEL: Is that the 22nd or the 27th,
2 sorry?
3 MR BOTHA: The 27th of February 2009.
4 ADV NEL: Thank you. So you have those
5 documents here?
6 MR BOTHA: Yes.
8 For the record, Mr Botha has handed us a bundle of
9 documents, thank you.
10 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Botha, I think
11 there were three other accounts you were asked about,
12 United Hotels (Pty) Limited?
13 MR BOTHA: United Hotels (Pty) Limited,
14 there is no facility in their own capacity. They actually
15 signed surety for Percy Masinga (Pty) Limited. We’ve got
16 two accounts there and I’ve got the statements for both.
17 ADV NEL: Thank you, we appreciate that.
18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you, if you
19 could just hand that to me? Thank you.
20 ADV NEL: Thank you. So that’s the two
21 accounts for Percy Masinga (Pty) Limited?
22 MR BOTHA: That’s correct.
23 ADV NEL: Thank you and then there was
24 Midrand United Hotel?
25 MR BOTHA: There is no facility or
Page 732
1 exposure for Midrand United Hotel with us.
2 ADV NEL: And then Midrand United Car
3 Hire (Pty) Limited?
4 MR BOTHA: Midrand United Car Hire, we
5 don’t have any facility or exposure.
6 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Botha, just for
7 the sake of clarity and so that there is no confusion, when
8 you say facility, in our layman’s terms can we accept that
9 that would equate to being an account?
10 MR BOTHA: That’s correct, yes.
11 ADV NEL: Thank you. Thank you, Madam
12 Commissioner, I have no further questions for Mr Botha. I
13 would just like to thank him for bringing us the documents.
14 We do appreciate that.
15 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr Botha.
16 Thank you for your attendance and your assistance, I am
17 going to excuse you.
18 MR BOTHA: Thank you.
19 [NO FURTHER QUESTIONS - WITNESS EXCUSED]
20 [INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES]
21 [10:17] PRESIDING OFFICER: Alright, we are back
22 on record. We have Dr Grieve with us. Dr Grieve, just to
23 confirm, you have no objection in taking the oath?
24 DR GRIEVE: No objection.

Page 733
1 right hand. Do you swear that the evidence that you are
3 nothing but the truth, say so help me God?
4 DR GRIEVE: d.s.s.
6 Dr Grieve, you know that you are entitled to legal
7 representation. Are you comfortable speaking to us without
8 legal representation?
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes, at this stage I am.
10 PRESIDING OFFICER: You are. At any
11 stage when you become uncomfortable you’ll bring it to my
12 attention?
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
14 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, thank you very
15 much. Mr Nel sorry, before we go, I don’t want to
16 interrupt you unnecessarily but off the record Dr Grieve
17 and I discussed something. Mr Storm, your attorney who is
18 not here today, apparently, or phoned me this morning and
19 said that you have received threats regarding the evidence
20 that was given at our previous inquiry. Can you perhaps
21 just explain it?
22 DR GRIEVE: I think threats is perhaps
23 not 100% accurate.
24 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay?
25 DR GRIEVE: It is various forms of
Page 734
1 harassment and malicious responses. Is this off the record
2 or are we on –
3 PRESIDING OFFICER: No, we are on record,
4 I need this to be on record.
5 DR GRIEVE: Alright, then basically the
6 various things that happened, it is not just necessarily
7 from the previous one, it is from the first one until now,
8 various incidents have taken place. Now the problem is it
9 would be very tough for myself or my legal representative
10 or counsel, whatever you call it, to do anything about it
11 because of the way it has been done, you know. It is
12 impossible to finger it –
13 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay –
14 DR GRIEVE: In a legal process to say it
15 is so and so.
16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay.
17 DR GRIEVE: Or Mr X or Y of Z, although
18 we do know who it is, we just can’t necessarily put that to
19 the table as such and I can explain why we know that.
20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes?
21 DR GRIEVE: But I am going to first just
22 tell you what’s happened –
24 DR GRIEVE: So that we can just take it
25 from one end. There is a lot of stuff that is obviously
Page 735
1 being discussed in these hearings that has found its way
2 onto the internet in various forms, shapes and sizes. Some
3 of it is in part true, some of it is half true and some of
4 it is absolute rubbish that has been posted. That’s always
5 posted under some sort of nom deplume bogus name, but it is
6 all posted there and it is stuff that sort of only being
7 discussed, some of it in these four walls. Some of it
8 might be misquoted and then it gets warped out of
9 proportion, but there is elements of truth that show it
10 comes from these four walls. There have been some sort of
11 threats in previous e-mails received, also once again from
12 strange people that we’ve never heard of, all at hotmail or
13 gmail addresses which you can open in about 15 seconds.
14 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes.
15 DR GRIEVE: Some of these have come to my
16 wife on her e-mail address. My wife has received SMSs of
17 threats of us going to jail and threats of us, various
18 things like that. I have put them onto text which I have
19 e-mailed to my attorney which I can forward. I may not
20 have checked them all, but there is enough there to show
21 you that this is happening.
22 Then other things that have also happened is,
23 where I am trying to find work, obviously with all this
24 stuff posted all over the internet, if you try and find a
25 job somewhere and they just Google your name, they sort of
Page 736
1 look at this and they don’t even phone you back or they
2 don’t interview you or they let you know, because there all
3 sorts of rubbish on the internet and they are not
4 interested. So it is making life very, very difficult.
5 Further than that, that means the only way I can
6 really just make a survival at the moment is by taking on
7 odd jobs, which I do, do and wherever I seem to find work
8 for a while, it is a couple of weeks and then suddenly with
9 the hospital managers where I go and work, receive some
10 wonderful letters explaining to them in some depth of how
11 bad I am, how evil I am and that they should bar me from
12 working in that specific hospital and they receive these
13 threats with all sorts of links to all sorts of websites
14 that have been generated and created, also by nom deplumes,
15 untraceable sources but all badmouthing me.
16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, ja –
17 DR GRIEVE: So it makes my life very,
18 very difficult. Some of these websites link me to porn, to
19 lesbianism, to gayness, I don’t know if there is such a
20 term. So it makes it very difficult. Then in previous
21 correspondence on record we’ve even referred to social
22 networks. Now on some of those social networks there have
23 been some infiltrations and they have been sending certain
24 messages to contacts of mine or so called acquaintances on
25 Facebook where they also refer them to all these websites

Page 737
1 and say they shouldn’t be friends with me and all sorts of
2 stuff like that.
4 DR GRIEVE: And even some of the people
5 that we’ve mentioned here before, the likes of Derrick de
6 Villiers received threats and stuff on Facebook, via
7 messaging and the like, intimidating him, harassing him and
8 threatening him with all sorts of stuff. So –
9 PRESIDING OFFICER: Sorry, just on that,
10 have you made, have you been able to speak with Mr Derrick
11 de Villiers?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I have.
13 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh and have you been
14 able to get us an address so that we can send –
15 DR GRIEVE: I haven’t got an address, but
16 I did give you guys a telephone number. I sent the e-mail
17 through –
18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh –
19 DR GRIEVE: A couple of times.
20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh, is that a recent
21 –
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja, not so recent, I sent
23 that back with the, ja –
24 PRESIDING OFFICER: Ja, that we get hold
25 of him –
Page 738
1 DR GRIEVE: On request I managed to get
2 hold of it within four or five days and I did send it
3 through.
5 DR GRIEVE: Okay, so –
6 PRESIDING OFFICER: Dr Grieve, I don’t
7 want to interrupt you. I think I get the gist and you know
8 that can’t be pleasant for you. The problem, I just need
9 to know, my role here is to ensure that these proceedings
10 are done, are held in confidence. So if you can bring me
11 something concrete that you can show me that has been
12 leaked from these proceedings, I can then try and identify
13 the person who has leaked this information so that I can
14 take steps against that person.
15 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
16 PRESIDING OFFICER: From what you tell
17 me, as I say it sounds very unpleasant, that is not enough
18 for me to make, you know to –
19 DR GRIEVE: I accept that.
20 PRESIDING OFFICER: To take someone to
21 task.
22 DR GRIEVE: Okay, if I may, most of the
23 stuff is in electronic format, even, like I say, my printer
24 at the moment is broken but –
Page 739
1 DR GRIEVE: The type of pages that it is,
2 I don’t think that it is going to printout exactly on a
3 printer either. So it will be easier to actually forward
4 electronic, what is the word I am looking for here, sources
5 or –
6 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes, no –
7 DR GRIEVE: Via an e-mail for you to go
8 and actually review and have a look at.
10 DR GRIEVE: So I can actually forward the
11 various addresses of these websites and where some of these
12 things that I feel that leaked out from these hearings and
13 proceedings have been posted.
15 DR GRIEVE: So if I may do that, I think
16 that will be the easiest.
17 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, well perhaps if
18 you could e-mail it to myself and to Ms Masterton and then
19 we can have a look at it.
20 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
21 PRESIDING OFFICER: And see if I can
22 identify the person, if evidence has been leaked, then I
23 can perhaps try and identify it. I’ll give you my card.
24 DR GRIEVE: Okay, thank you.
25 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, I think that
Page 740
1 deals with that. Mr Nel, please proceed.
2 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Thank you. Dr
3 Grieve?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes?
5 ADV NEL: I would like you to have a look
6 at this file that is the closest to you, that’s the one.
7 If you open it you’ll see that there are divisions. There
8 is one for Annette Odendaal and I would like you to go to
9 that when you are ready.
10 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
11 ADV NEL: About a quarter way through
12 that bundle in front of you, if you just page you should
13 see there – that’s good, stop there and then page on a
14 little bit until you get to the document application for
15 finance.
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: Okay, now if I remember
18 correctly the general modus operandi of Bridging Solutions
19 was a person requiring finance or Bridging assistance would
20 approach Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited and the first
21 thing that would be done would be the completion of the
22 application for finance form. Is that correct?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: So the document you have in
25 front of you now is the application for finance and that

Page 741
1 document appears to have been completed by Annette
2 Odendaal. Would you agree with that?
3 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
4 ADV NEL: And it appears from that that
5 what it is, is a purchase of bond proceeds.
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 ADV NEL: What exactly does that mean?
8 DR GRIEVE: That means that the attorney
9 that approached me and I don’t have that in front of me
10 now, so please forgive me if I misquote it, but this I
11 believe is Ebersohn and Grobler. They would have
12 approached me as a client that they would have finance on
13 their table and would have requested me to buy a portion of
14 their finance that they are obtaining for the client. Does
15 that make sense? Does that answer your question?
16 ADV NEL: We are starting to get to where
17 I would like to ask what I am trying to get at –
18 DR GRIEVE: Okay –
19 ADV NEL: Because the purchase of bond
20 proceeds, normally my understanding of how one would
21 perhaps get Bridging finance is, if for example you sell a
22 property and there is going to be free residue, that
23 property may be transferred anywhere between one and six
24 months.
25 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
Page 742
1 ADV NEL: Certain people may - the
2 seller, the seller may require money quicker than that.
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: They then approach a Bridging
5 Solutions - a Bridging finance company and ask for Bridging
6 finance on the basis that once the property is transferred,
7 the free residue would be transferred or whatever amount is
8 borrowed would be transferred to the Bridging finance
9 company.
10 DR GRIEVE: Ja, that’s the one leg.
11 ADV NEL: And is this what this refers
12 to, the purchase of bond proceeds?
13 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I haven’t had the
14 privilege of going through this all, I don’t think so
15 offhand and if I am wrong please correct me here, but this
16 is what it should say and my memory, this is three years
17 ago –
18 ADV NEL: I will take you to the actual
19 agreement in a moment –
20 DR GRIEVE: But I think I remember it –
21 ADV NEL: - about that particular phrase.
22 DR GRIEVE: This specific one would have
23 been a property that is already owned by the person here.
24 ADV NEL: Yes?
25 DR GRIEVE: And that they had actually
Page 743
1 went and obtained a bond from a financial institution and
2 they also, as you put it, if they are waiting for a bond to
3 be registered and paid out, it could also take anything
4 from one month to, who knows how long and I would also
5 bridge those proceeds and I think this is one where we were
6 waiting for the bond, not necessary for a seller and a
7 buyer transaction but just a bond. That is if I remember
8 correctly, if I can just look at the title on the actual
9 agreement to jog my memory, this is a while ago. These are
10 bond proceeds, ja.
11 ADV NEL: Okay, so when you talk about a
12 purchase of bond proceeds, that would normally be somebody
13 who is the purchaser of a property who is awaiting the
14 payment of their bond from a financial institution.
15 DR GRIEVE: The way you’ve put it, you
16 are not a 100% correct. It would not necessarily be a
17 purchaser of a property. The person could already own the
18 property and not even paid it off, but now he needs a loan
19 again, so he goes and raises a bond.
20 ADV NEL: I understand, I see.
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja, so you were right in the
22 second half, just the first part not.
23 ADV NEL: Okay, thank you. Now that
24 particular finance application, we can see from that the
25 identify of the mortgagee, if I can call it then the
Page 744
1 borrower, Annette Rose Odendaal and Ms Odendaal wanted or
2 required R450 000. Is that correct?
3 DR GRIEVE: That is correct, yes.
4 ADV NEL: And then on that same page we
5 can see that the conveyancer is Botha/TP, whatever
6 reference the conveyancers may use.
7 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
8 ADV NEL: Okay, if you turn to the next
9 page, you’ll see there is a payment authority form. My
10 understanding is that that is also required once an
11 agreement is signed so that there is clear instructions to
12 Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions where the money must be
13 paid into.
14 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct.
15 ADV NEL: From this document we see that
16 the amount of R450 000 was to be paid into the trust
17 account of Ebersohn and Grobler Attorneys.
18 DR GRIEVE: That is also correct, yes.
19 ADV NEL: And this document is also
20 signed by Annette Odendaal.
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, did you ever have
23 personal dealings with Ms Odendaal?
24 DR GRIEVE: Not face to face, but I have
25 spoken to her over the telephone from time to time.

Page 745
1 ADV NEL: Were these documents submitted
2 to Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited by the
3 attorneys on behalf of Ms Odendaal?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: If you can turn on one more
6 page, we see the client information form. Am I correct,
7 that just sets out the details of Ms Odendaal, it sets out
8 what her gross income is, her occupation and her employer.
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 ADV NEL: The gross income there is R8
11 500 a month.
12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
13 ADV NEL: Would that be of any concern to
14 Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited or is your
15 sole criteria the fact that a bond has been granted by a
16 financial institution?
17 DR GRIEVE: My sole criteria in this
18 business was that the bond had been granted by a financial
19 institution.
20 ADV NEL: And if one pages back a little
21 bit you’ll get to the actual agreement.
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
23 ADV NEL: That is also headed purchase of
24 bond proceeds agreement.
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 746
1 ADV NEL: Madam Commissioner sorry, it is
2 just before the pages that we were just looking at.
4 ADV NEL: I apologise.
5 PRESIDING OFFICER: No, no, thank you.
6 ADV NEL: From that we can see the
7 identity of, it is referred to as the mortgagee but we can
8 also in layman’s terms refer to it as the borrower, for all
9 intents and purposes.
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: Would you agree?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 ADV NEL: Okay, this is then the
14 agreement that was concluded between Dr D S Grieve Bridging
15 Solutions (Pty) Limited and Ms Odendaal.
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: Can you show me on this
18 agreement where it actually reflects the amount to be
19 advanced or does it only appear from –
20 DR GRIEVE: It will only appear –
21 ADV NEL: The payment authority document?
22 DR GRIEVE: No, it will also appear in
23 that Annexure A, the first document you referred to.
24 ADV NEL: So the finance application
25 would then be Annexure A to the actual agreement?
Page 747
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 ADV NEL: Now Dr Grieve, in this
3 particular instance there were sureties as well. Is that
4 normal procedure?
5 DR GRIEVE: No, that wouldn’t be normal
6 procedure, but the attorneys said that they would be
7 settling me either out of the bond or out of - can we just
8 refer to it as the alternate sources, whichever came
9 through first. So the impression I was left under was that
10 my agreement was for the bond, when that came through I
11 would be settled and that would be the definite exit for
12 them, but they were hoping to actually get me out earlier,
13 simply because our form of, if I can refer to it as
14 finance, is expensive. So obviously if they could settle
15 us sooner through, I don’t know what the relationship was
16 with that other Cornelius person, but if that Cornelius
17 person was there sooner to settle, they would just exit
18 earlier.
19 ADV NEL: Alright, but from what I
20 understand from what you told us earlier, your real
21 criteria here was the approval by a financial institution
22 of a bond.
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: Now did you ever see such a
25 document?
Page 748
1 DR GRIEVE: The attorneys, Ebersohn and
2 Grobler provided me with an undertaking which I haven’t
3 seen yet, which stated that such finance approval was, I am
4 just trying to think of the terms they used now, was a
5 definite go and that Esmarie, I think is the lady’s name
6 that was working with Ebersohn and Grobler, who was the
7 bond originator working on it and she was in the offices of
8 Ebersohn and Grobler and she also advised me that this had
9 been approved and that they would send the stuff through to
10 me, but a final document from the bank, no, I have not
11 received up till today.
12 ADV NEL: Would you not have regarded
13 that type of document as crucial? That is your only
14 security –
15 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I had a bit more faith
16 than I should have had in the attorney’s undertaking as
17 well and yes, I should have.
18 ADV NEL: Okay, I haven’t seen an
19 attorney’s undertaking anywhere in this bundle, Dr Grieve,
20 but you say one did exist?
21 DR GRIEVE: One did exist, ja.
22 ADV NEL: So what I can understand from
23 what you are telling me is that you received an
24 undertaking. Was that a written undertaking from the
25 attorneys?

Page 749
1 DR GRIEVE: This is a long time ago.
2 Yes, there should have been because I would not have paid
3 this out without at least an undertaking from the
4 attorneys. So I am going to make an assumption that there
5 was a written undertaking. I don’t know why it is not on
6 your file here. Can I query something in the middle of
7 this, is that okay?
8 ADV NEL: Yes.
9 DR GRIEVE: I did give a purple file
10 about Ebersohn and Grobler through to you guys as well.
11 Can I ask you if there wasn’t perhaps a copy of that
12 undertaking in that file?
13 ADV NEL: We’ll have to look at it again.
14 DR GRIEVE: Everything I had on file, a
15 duplicate would have been in that thing and if I don’t,
16 then I don’t know where it is. Okay no, then I do not have
17 a copy of that.
18 ADV NEL: My instructions, Dr Grieve, is
19 that there is no such undertaking in the purple file.
20 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
21 ADV NEL: Ja, that’s – at this stage we
22 don’t have a copy of one.
23 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
24 ADV NEL: And what you are doing is, you
25 are making an assumption based on a recollection.
Page 750
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: If I can put it that way.
3 DR GRIEVE: I accept that.
4 ADV NEL: Okay, but the suretyship, was
5 that a request by Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions or was
6 that a recommendation by the attorneys?
7 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe, I can’t recall. I
8 actually want to go as far as to say, I think it was
9 offered to me. That’s a bit vague but that’s what I
10 recall.
11 [10:37] ADV NEL: One of the sureties is a
12 gentleman by the name of Cornelius Bornman –
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja, ja.
14 ADV NEL: - did you have any personal
15 dealings with him?
16 DR GRIEVE: Not at all.
17 ADV NEL: If you can just page on, from
18 where we are, you’ll eventually get to the payment
19 authority form, client information form, and then the first
20 suretyship by Mr Bornman.
21 COMMISSIONER: Page 22, I think these
22 pages have been paginated.
23 DR GRIEVE: I’ve got it.
24 ADV NEL: Sorry, Madam Commissioner, page
25 22?
Page 751
1 COMMISSIONER: Yes, 22, no –
2 ADV NEL: No problem, no problem. After
3 that, you’ll see that there’s a document after the – sorry,
4 after the suretyship, is a document with the heading Jen
5 Harner Risk Management Services, after that, yes.
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
7 ADV NEL: 25, 26.
8 COMMISSIONER: That’s right, 25.
9 ADV NEL: Now, did you have any dealings
10 with Jen Harner Risk Management Services?
11 DR GRIEVE: No, not at all.
12 ADV NEL: This particular document, was
13 it – do you know where it emanates from?
14 DR GRIEVE: Actually to be honest, I
15 haven’t got a clue. I can’t say that I’ve never seen it,
16 but it might have been added, but I would have obviously,
17 looking at a bond, so this wasn’t an important document to
18 me at that particular point in time. It was just added.
19 ADV NEL: The next page, page 26 is a
20 client information form.
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 ADV NEL: That was also completed by Mr
23 Bornman.
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 ADV NEL: Was this completed at your
Page 752
1 request? Or did the attorney simply do it?
2 DR GRIEVE: I think this was an addition
3 by the attorneys.
4 ADV NEL: The next page is headed
5 Annexure C, that is a suretyship by Mr Shane Craig Donald.
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
7 ADV NEL: Did you have any personal
8 dealings with Mr Donald?
9 DR GRIEVE: Not at the time of this
10 contract, no.
11 ADV NEL: Have you subsequently had
12 personal dealings with Mr Donald.
13 DR GRIEVE: Subsequently is a long time
14 but, ja.
15 ADV NEL: Well, then perhaps, Dr Grieve,
16 you can tell us when you had dealings –
17 DR GRIEVE: Obviously, prior to our
18 liquidation, I was chasing this money up quite
19 aggressively. I think this is also one of the files that
20 was on Tim du Toit’s table if I remember correctly as well,
21 and we had various promises of payments due and
22 forthcoming, and all that stuff, and it just never
23 realised, so ja, at one stage, I was hounding him quite a
24 bit. Because every time I approach Annette Odendaal, she
25 would not answer, and I would get a phone call back from

Page 753
1 him. So it seemed to be the spokesperson for the two, so I
2 always, almost ended up dealing just with him.
3 ADV NEL: Okay, and who made, who, which
4 person made promises to make payment?
5 DR GRIEVE: He did.
6 ADV NEL: After that suretyship document,
7 there is a document marked Annexure E –
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: - by Mr Donald, it sets out his
10 passport number and it says that it certifies that on
11 Monday, 20 September, he will pay Mr Bornman half a million
12 rand. Was this something that you were involved with or
13 knew about?
14 DR GRIEVE: No. I was not involved with
15 this, this was not relevant to my transaction. If it was
16 in there, it was in there.
17 ADV NEL: Yes, if you turn on another two
18 pages, you should get to a page where there’s a credit
19 card, copy of a credit card, rather.
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: And then just below that,
22 appears to be the passport of Mr Donald.
23 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
24 ADV NEL: Were all these documents
25 provided to you?
Page 754
1 DR GRIEVE: I can’t remember this
2 specific page, and I can’t remember the two odd pages,
3 either,
4 ADV NEL: Yes.
5 DR GRIEVE: I am not saying that they
6 were not provided to me, but they wouldn’t have been
7 relevant to me. So they could have been in my original
8 bundle. They probably were. I just didn’t put any
9 importance on them, so now I can’t recall them.
10 ADV NEL: Yes. Do you know the
11 relationship between Mr Donald and Ms Odendaal?
12 DR GRIEVE: I have no official idea of
13 what that is, just an assumption.
14 COMMISSIONER: Yes, your assumption?
15 DR GRIEVE: That they are probably
16 partners. I could be totally wrong, but that’s just my
17 sort of, what I would understand.
18 COMMISSIONER: Like brother and sister?
19 DR GRIEVE: No, rather not, they could
20 even be but no, my understanding was that they were perhaps
21 partners, but I mean, that’s an assumption, I could be
22 wrong.
23 COMMISSIONER: No –
24 ADV NEL: I understand. The next page is
25 a letter from Tim Du Toit attorneys –
Page 755
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 ADV NEL: And if you turn to the second
3 page of that letter, the first paragraph –
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes?
5 ADV NEL: - it is recorded there that it
6 is the instruction of Tim Du Toit attorneys that Ms
7 Odendaal is indebted to Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions in
8 the amount of R699 050.
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
10 ADV NEL: And that was obviously as at
11 the date of that letter, which was 8 July 2009. Would that
12 be the original R450 000?
13 DR GRIEVE: Plus fees.
14 ADV NEL: Plus – yes, fees, interest,
15 whatever you want to call it.
16 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct, ja.
17 ADV NEL: Costs.
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: Was the amount of R450 000
20 advanced to Ms Odendaal?
21 DR GRIEVE: That question I am going to
22 answer as follows, it was advanced to Ebersohn & Grobler’s
23 trust account.
24 ADV NEL: Yes. I apologise, yes, that
25 was the instructions you were given?
Page 756
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes. What they’ve done, I do
2 not know what they’ve done on this one, but I have evidence
3 that they did not necessarily act ethically on the other
4 deals on their table.
5 ADV NEL: But again, that would simply be
6 an assumption as to what they did in this instance.
7 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
8 ADV NEL: But in accordance with the
9 instructions, Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty)
10 Limited paid an amount of R450 000 to Ebersohn & Grobler
11 Attorneys’ trust account based on this particular agreement
12 –
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes, yes.
14 ADV NEL: - with Ms Odendaal.
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes, yes.
16 ADV NEL: And this amount of 699 000
17 would obviously have increased with costs/interest,
18 whatever you want to call it at a rate of R1.60 per R1 000
19 per day as from 8 July 2009 until now.
20 DR GRIEVE: I am reading here 31st of July
21 but yes.
22 ADV NEL: Yes, well, I assume then that
23 what happened is, they’ve calculated the costs in advance –
24 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
25 ADV NEL: - as from, as at 31 July.

Page 757
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: So the interest or costs would
3 then be from 31 July 2009.
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: Thank you. Thank you, Dr
6 Grieve.
7 DR GRIEVE: Am I excused?
8 COMMISSIONER: Okay, can I just stand
9 down? If you will just stand down for us, thank you very
10 much. We will get back to you. Thank you, Dr Grieve.
11 DR GRIEVE: Can I leave this open over –
12 COMMISSIONER: Yes.
13 DR GRIEVE: I assume somebody is going to
14 sit here now.
15 COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
16 [10:51] PRESIDING OFFICER: This is Mr Gerry Nel.
17 ADV NEL: Hello.
18 MR DONALD: Hi Mr Nel, how are you?
19 ADV NEL: Good and you?
20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, you met Mr
21 Laher?
22 MR DONALD: Yes.
23 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay and you know Ms
24 Masterton and to your left is Mr Kagan, he is doing our
25 transcription.
Page 758
1 MR DONALD: Good.
2 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, can I ask you
3 just to, is your cell phone switched off?
4 MR DONALD: No.
5 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, Mr Donald,
6 please may I have your full names?
7 MR DONALD: Shane Craig Donald.
8 PRESIDING OFFICER: Do you have any
9 objection in taking the oath?
10 MR DONALD: No objections.
12 right hand. Please swear that the evidence that you are
14 nothing but the truth, so help me God?
15 SHANE CRAIG DONALD: d.s.s.
16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you. Mr
17 Donald, you would have noted from your subpoena that you
18 are entitled to legal representation.
19 MR DONALD: Mm.
20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Are you comfortable
21 speaking to us without legal representation?
22 MR DONALD: At this point, yes.
23 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, well if at any
24 stage you become uncomfortable, please bring it to my
25 attention, I’ll try and assist you as far as I can.
Page 759
1 MR DONALD: Okay.
2 PRESIDING OFFICER: Please bear in mind
3 this is a fact finding mission, you either know the answer
4 or you don’t.
5 MR DONALD: Okay.
6 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. Please
7 proceed, Mr Nel.
8 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr
9 Donald, there is a file in front of you. I would like you
10 just for ease to turn to page 13. You should see the page
11 number is at the top right hand side.
12 MR DONALD: There we go, the one that’s
13 written, not the 6 but the one that is written?
14 ADV NEL: Yes, it should be in
15 handwriting.
16 MR DONALD: Okay.
17 ADV NEL: Yes, that’s it. Mr Donald, are
18 you aware of this, do you have personal knowledge of an
19 agreement that was concluded between Dr D S Grieve Bridging
20 Solutions and Ms Annette Odendaal?
21 MR DONALD: Yes, I do.
22 ADV NEL: Can I ask you your relationship
23 with Ms Odendaal?
24 MR DONALD: She is a friend, personal
25 friend, yes.
Page 760
1 ADV NEL: A friend.
2 MR DONALD: She is my friend, yes.
3 ADV NEL: And are you assisting her with
4 this indebtedness?
5 MR DONALD: Yes, I am.
6 ADV NEL: Okay, you also concluded a
7 personal suretyship.
8 MR DONALD: Yes, I did.
9 ADV NEL: In favour of Dr D S Grieve
10 Bridging Solutions in terms of which you bound yourself to
11 –
12 MR DONALD: Yes, I did –
13 ADV NEL: Any amounts owing.
14 MR DONALD: Yes, I did.
15 ADV NEL: On behalf of Ms Odendaal. Can
16 I try and curtail the proceedings and ask you whether you,
17 Mr Donald, accept liability to make payment of the amounts
18 due –
19 MR DONALD: Yes, I will –
20 ADV NEL: To Dr D S Grieve Bridging
21 Solutions, you do?
22 MR DONALD: Yes, I will. I am going to
23 make this very short and simple. What had happened, I met
24 this woman and her family story touched my heart, okay. I
25 might get a bit choked when I start talking about it

Page 761
1 because it is very upsetting for me. I came here to South
2 Africa to bury my uncle, actually who is more like my
3 brother, we grew up together and my uncle’s daughter is 18
4 and her best friend, I met their family through them, okay.
5 ADV NEL: Alright.
6 MR DONALD: The one night I went down to
7 visit the family and the windows in the house were broken,
8 I would say what happened? They said, oh no, we were
9 robbed and I walked into the house. That’s the first time
10 I went there, I was outside and about a month later I went
11 into the house. There wasn’t a piece of furniture. This
12 woman was sleeping on the floor. There were no cupboards.
13 She sold the cupboards in the house to pay for food for her
14 kids. She was married, it was her second marriage. Her
15 first marriage ended up very young, very early. About six
16 or seven years went by, she was alone and she married this
17 guy who was a teacher and this guy physically abused her.
18 He broke her back three times.
19 The last time she followed him to Saudi, I mean
20 she was in love with the guy, but she followed him to
21 Saudi. He threatened her in Saudi that he was going to
22 kill her. She came back. Three of her friends were
23 waiting at the house for her and then saying listen, you
24 either go back to him or we are going to deal with you. So
25 I talked to those guys and said listen, it is very simple,
Page 762
1 you touch her and I will get people to deal with you, okay,
2 as simply as that. So I said look, we’ve got to help her.
3 So I met Mr Bornman through some other people and
4 he said listen, I’ve got an opportunity, a business
5 opportunity that will work. He put the business
6 opportunity together. The whole business opportunity fell
7 apart. Now during that time period I have been putting
8 windows in the house. I paid off her bond, not paid it
9 off, but I got the bond that she had back up to square one,
10 okay. The money were paid out, I supposed that was about
11 80 000, 90 000, to get her bond caught up because she was
12 going to get evicted from the house. We’ve had that
13 sorted, trying to keep her stable physically. I mean she
14 can literally not walk from here to the front door. If she
15 is walking from here to the front door then she collapses
16 with pain.
17 So we went. I talked to her surgeon and they
18 said listen, this is the situation, it is about a half a
19 million to three quarters of a million rand for the
20 surgery, because the screw has actually broken. That is up
21 against the nerve in her spine. So to fix that is not just
22 an average specialist. They have actually required
23 information from my hometown in Edmonton, at the University
24 Hospital, because they have the largest orthopaedic
25 specialists for back surgery there and they talked to them
Page 763
1 there to see what they can do, how they can disassemble the
2 bone, because she also has a bone disease. The bones
3 disintegrate, the coccyx is completely disintegrated.
4 Okay, so it is not as simple as just saying you
5 know – so that’s the situation that we are in and I am
6 trying to get this family back on their feet. We’ve got
7 them a safe home. I’ve got new cupboards, I’ve got them
8 dishes, I’ve got them plates, I’ve got them beds. You know
9 her two boys were sleeping on the floor, they didn’t even
10 have a blanket. So now they’ve got blankets, they’ve got
11 beds, I’ve got the house back in order, I’ve got it nice
12 and tidy for them and now I want to take care of this
13 situation. About a month ago, three weeks ago I sent off
14 notices to my lawyer in Canada to please liquidate one of
15 my properties so that I can take care of this situation.
16 That he said will take probably between three and four
17 months okay, but the documents for sale have already been
18 sent. I’ve already signed them, I’ve already given power
19 of attorney. So that’s all been executed. I’ve got the
20 power of attorney back at the place where I am staying. I
21 can show you that I have given full power of attorney,
22 okay.
23 ADV NEL: Yes.
24 MR DONALD: We are just waiting for them
25 to send me the documents for sale, so that I can get the
Page 764
1 sale agreement done and that’s what we are doing.
2 ADV NEL: Mr Donald, I would like to ask
3 you a couple of more questions, but before we get there,
4 just for the sake of clarity, can we accept then that you
5 will honour your suretyship agreement and you will make
6 full payment of the amount outstanding to Dr D S Grieve
7 Bridging Solutions –
8 MR DONALD: Yes, I will –
9 ADV NEL: (Pty) Limited?
10 MR DONALD: Yes, I will.
11 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Donald, I would
12 like to just firstly say to you that we do have great
13 sympathy for Ms Odendaal, but I would like to just ask you,
14 how did this actually come about that Ms Odendaal who
15 clearly had no money or means, applies for Bridging
16 finance? You know this document says that she wants R450
17 000.
18 MR DONALD: Mr Bornman had put in place a
19 business opportunity, okay and with that business
20 opportunity he arranged through a law firm, I don’t even
21 have a copy of the law agreement at all.
22 ADV NEL: Okay.
23 MR DONALD: We were never given one and
24 never seen one. We signed it there and I signed as a
25 surety.

Page 765
1 ADV NEL: Yes.
2 MR DONALD: I mean I stood behind her, I
3 still will stand behind her. We signed it. The money was
4 transferred to her and they used her property as
5 collateral. Now the property was worth, I think at the
6 time it was worth about 1.1, 1.2 million, okay, but if you
7 actually look at the house it was probably worth about a
8 100 000, in my mind, because there was nothing left. There
9 was no water tank, there was no geyser, nothing.
10 ADV NEL: Okay, so if I understand
11 correctly, a financial institution agreed to provide Ms
12 Odendaal with a bond amount.
13 MR DONALD: Yes.
14 ADV NEL: Based on that Dr D S Grieve
15 Bridging Solutions advanced R450 000 through the particular
16 attorneys –
17 MR DONALD: Yes –
18 ADV NEL: Who I understand a firm called
19 Ebersohn & Grobler.
20 MR DONALD: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: I don’t know if that rings a
22 bell to you?
23 MR DONALD: Yes, it does.
24 ADV NEL: And the monies were paid into
25 their trust account.
Page 766
1 MR DONALD: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: Was that money, that R450 000
3 then paid to Ms Odendaal?
4 MR DONALD: Yes, it was.
5 ADV NEL: So she definitely received the
6 money –
7 MR DONALD: The money was received into
8 her account, yes.
9 ADV NEL: Now Ms Odendaal was also asked
10 to come here today. I think the last time she was ill.
11 MR DONALD: She still is, she is
12 bedridden. I mean literally she is in bed. You can go and
13 have a look. I just got off the phone with her two minutes
14 ago, she tried to go to the toilet and she collapsed and we
15 have, the neighbour’s maid is at the house watching her
16 while I am here.
17 ADV NEL: Okay, I think just to, she
18 should really have just told us that she wasn’t –
19 MR DONALD: I did, I phoned the lawyer to
20 say listen, she is not going to be here today.
21 ADV NEL: Okay.
22 MR DONALD: We gave you a medical – there
23 was a medical certificate provided the last time which had
24 an indefinite date disclosed on it.
25 ADV NEL: Okay.
Page 767
1 MR DONALD: Okay and that was on that, we
2 did provide that through a lawyer.
3 ADV NEL: Okay, but did you notify Bowman
4 Gilfillan that she wasn’t going to be here today, or was it
5 her attorney that was notified?
6 MR DONALD: Her attorney, the attorney
7 that I have hired.
8 ADV NEL: Yes, okay.
9 MR DONALD: Okay.
10 ADV NEL: Because the attorney didn’t
11 notify us.
12 PRESIDING OFFICER: Mm-mm and can you
13 just confirm the name of that attorney, that you’ve
14 instructed because we seem to have a bit of confusion –
15 MR DONALD: He said to me that I needed
16 to show up here today.
18 ADV NEL: Yes.
19 PRESIDING OFFICER: No, I am asking –
20 MR DONALD: It is on the phone –
21 PRESIDING OFFICER: That is fine, we will
22 get it later.
23 MR DONALD: Gary –
24 MS MASTERTON: Is it Rorich & Wolmarans?
25 MR DONALD: Yes.
Page 768
1 PRESIDING OFFICER: Someone from their
2 firm?
3 MR DONALD: Yes.
5 MR DONALD: Gary Bowman, who I understand
6 since then has left the firm –
7 PRESIDING OFFICER: Brummer?
8 MR DONALD: Brummer, Gary Brummer.
9 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes.
10 MR DONALD: Has left the firm and he is
11 now under Pretoria High Court or whatever appointed.
13 MR DONALD: And his assistant has taken
14 over but yes, he was provided with a medical certificate,
15 which I think he faxed, I know Gary faxed it through to you
16 the last time, stating that she was –
17 PRESIDING OFFICER: Incapacitated?
18 MR DONALD: Yes.
19 PRESIDING OFFICER: Well, I never saw
20 anything but anyway, we will take that up with Mr Brummer
21 or his assistant.
22 MR DONALD: Yes.
23 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you.
24 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Donald, we
25 appreciate the fact that you are going to sell the property

Page 769
1 in, is it in Edmonton?
2 MR DONALD: It is in Canada, yes. It is
3 not Edmonton, it is in Canada.
4 ADV NEL: Okay, in Canada. Do you have
5 any idea what sort of residue you would, pre residue you
6 would have from the sale of that property?
7 MR DONALD: The last appraisal that was
8 done on the property was a year ago and the property was
9 evaluated at $1.9 million.
10 ADV NEL: Canadian dollars?
11 MR DONALD: Canadian dollars, yes.
12 ADV NEL: You see this transaction,
13 because it is of a short, normally of a particularly short
14 term nature –
15 MR DONALD: Mm?
16 ADV NEL: The – I am going to call it
17 interest for want of a better word, the Bridging finance
18 companies will call it discounts, costs, whatever they
19 like, it is interest.
20 MR DONALD: Mm?
21 ADV NEL: That you and I understand it.
22 MR DONALD: Mm?
23 ADV NEL: That interest runs at R1,60 per
24 R1 000 per day. So that’s 450 times R1,60 each and every
25 day interest that is accumulating on this amount. When the
Page 770
1 money was advanced it was R450 000. At the end of July
2 2009 it had already arisen to R700 000, R699 050.
3 Obviously it is in your interest to resolve it sooner
4 rather than later.
5 MR DONALD: Ja.
6 ADV NEL: Because that interest carries
7 on running until the law says it can’t run anymore,
8 whatever that may be. So I am just suggesting that Mr
9 Laher, you will have to liaise with him, Ms Masterton and
10 the sooner you do that, obviously the better –
12 ADV NEL: More in your interest to do
13 that.
14 MR DONALD: Okay.
15 ADV NEL: Mr Donald, just if you do take
16 it up with Mr Brummer, what we have – what we received on
17 the 9th of December last year shortly before Ms Odendaal was
18 initially required to attend, was a letter stating that Ms
19 Odendaal sustained a back injury on the 8th of December, she
20 is bedridden and highly medicated and it is then said that
21 her medical practitioner will provide a medical certificate
22 which will be forwarded to Bowman Gilfillan –
23 MR DONALD: That was forwarded to them or
24 it should have been forwarded.
25 ADV NEL: Okay, it has never been
Page 771
1 forwarded to Bowman Gilfillan or to this inquiry.
2 MR DONALD: Okay.
3 ADV NEL: Perhaps if you do speak to him
4 if you can just ask him to make sure that that is forwarded
5 –
6 MR DONALD: I will do so.
7 ADV NEL: You know as I say nobody knew
8 that Ms Odendaal wasn’t arriving today.
9 MR DONALD: I will do so.
10 ADV NEL: Okay. Mr Donald, Mr Bornman,
11 he also signed a deed of suretyship, C J, Cornelius Jansen
12 Bornman. Do you know his whereabouts? Is he going to
13 assist you?
14 MR DONALD: The last I heard that he was
15 in Singapore. He is to be coming back but I don’t know
16 when. Actually I haven’t spoken to CJ for a while, so I
17 don’t know his –
18 PRESIDING OFFICER: And what is he doing
19 in Singapore, do you know?
20 MR DONALD: I am not sure.
21 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh.
22 MR DONALD: I have no idea.
23 ADV NEL: Okay and this entity, Jen
24 Harner Risk Management Services –
25 MR DONALD: I’ve never heard –
Page 772
1 ADV NEL: Does that still exist?
2 MR DONALD: I’ve never heard of them.
3 ADV NEL: Okay, if you turn to page 25 of
4 the bundle in front of you?
5 MR DONALD: Mm?
6 ADV NEL: That is a promissory note.
7 MR DONALD: On page 26, here?
8 ADV NEL: I am sorry, I apologise.
9 MR DONALD: Okay, no problem.
10 ADV NEL: That is a promissory note but
11 you will see it is on the letterhead of Jen Harner Risk
12 Management Services, but that appears to be some sort of
13 entity that is owned or which C J Bornman is a member.
14 MR DONALD: Okay.
15 ADV NEL: I am going to read, I am going
16 to translate this for you, unless your Afrikaans is up to
17 scratch.
18 MR DONALD: Jy kan Afrikaans praat.
19 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh.
20 ADV NEL: Well, then you can read.
21 MR DONALD: I can’t read it but I can
22 understand it when you speak it.
23 ADV NEL: So what I am going to, I am
24 going to try and translate it for you roughly.
25 MR DONALD: Okay.

Page 773
1 ADV NEL: What it says is, “I, C J
2 Bornman, undertake to, within 30 days pay R600 000 towards
3 a loan and that excludes interest and that is a loan, I am
4 not sure if it is to or from Ms Odendaal of 57 Boet Erasmus
5 The Reed, Centurion, Erf 1157.
6 MR DONALD: Mm.
7 ADV NEL: What I glean from this is,
8 monies were advanced to C J Bornman –
10 ADV NEL: And he undertook to repay R600
11 000.
12 MR DONALD: Yes.
13 ADV NEL: Okay.
14 MR DONALD: I didn’t know about this
15 agreement.
16 ADV NEL: Okay.
17 MR DONALD: Because some of the stuff
18 that they talked about was between CJ and Annette. I
19 didn’t know about this document.
20 ADV NEL: Okay, Mr Donald, I have no
21 further questions for you. I am going to just ask you for
22 the sake of avoiding us instituting legal action against
23 you or pursuing legal action, let me rephrase that because
24 it is my understanding that legal action has already been
25 instituted against you based on this agreement and your
Page 774
1 suretyship.
2 MR DONALD: Mm?
3 ADV NEL: You did not enter an appearance
4 to defend. In other words you didn’t defend the –
5 MR DONALD: The original documents were
6 with, we did issue it with Grieve Bridging Solutions.
7 That’s why we hired, why I hired that lawyer in Pretoria –
8 ADV NEL: Yes –
9 MR DONALD: It was to defend this.
10 ADV NEL: Okay.
11 MR DONALD: Which he did, as far as I
12 understand, file.
13 ADV NEL: He has only defended on behalf
14 of Ms Odendaal.
15 MR DONALD: Ja.
16 ADV NEL: Not on behalf of you?
17 MR DONALD: Okay.
18 [11:11] ADV NEL: Now you’ve also been sued on
19 the basis of your suretyship agreement.
20 MR DONALD: Okay.
21 ADV NEL: So regardless of whether the
22 court ever gives a judgment against Ms Odendaal, it can
23 independently give a judgment against you based solely on
24 your suretyship.
25 MR DONALD: Okay.
Page 775
1 ADV NEL: So summons has been issued
2 against you. My understanding from the documentation is
3 that there is an application for default judgment pending
4 against you.
5 MR DONALD: Okay.
6 ADV NEL: I would suggest that you liaise
7 with Mr Laher when you can, so that if possible that isn’t
8 pursued. I am not telling you it won’t be or it can’t be,
9 I am just making a suggestion to you. I will –
10 MR DONALD: I said to Mr Laher this
11 morning before we came in here, I spoke to my lawyer and if
12 you pull my phone records you’ll see, two weeks ago I told
13 him what we needed done, he said he’ll get back to me
14 within three weeks, it is about a week and a half to two
15 weeks left, that I should get feedback from him. Once I
16 have that feedback I am prepared to sit down with Mr Laher,
17 sign an agreement and say on these, within this date
18 approximately, because we are selling a property, okay, I
19 will cover the situation and I have no problem with doing
20 that, but I am not going to sign and say, I am not going to
21 commit to this and within three months and three months
22 comes down, then I go him and I say look, this is what’s
23 happening, I want to be upfront, I want to be open.
24 ADV NEL: No, I appreciate that. All I
25 am suggesting is that you liaise with Mr Laher because he
Page 776
1 is also taking instructions from the liquidator and
2 creditors, that are putting everybody under pressure to
3 collect money.
4 MR DONALD: Mm.
5 ADV NEL: So I am just saying that, you
6 know I just suggest you would liaise with him.
7 MR DONALD: Ja.
8 ADV NEL: Because it is also not just
9 solely my decision or his decision.
10 MR DONALD: Mm.
11 ADV NEL: There are clients and
12 liquidators who instruct us and tell us –
13 MR DONALD: Fully understandable.
14 ADV NEL: Thank you. Thank you, Mr
15 Donald, I have no further questions.
16 MR DONALD: If we run into any problem
17 the one thing that I did have a question about and this was
18 a question from my lawyer, interest rates here in South
19 Africa, these interest rates fall unto what is called usury
20 rates, both in the EU, both in North America and where do
21 these interest rates fall as far as they are concerned
22 here.
23 ADV NEL: You’ll have to take that up
24 with Mr Brummer.
25 MR DONALD: Okay.

Page 777
1 ADV NEL: South African Law also has
2 interest rates that would be classified as usurious.
3 MR DONALD: Okay.
4 ADV NEL: There are different cut offs.
5 It depends on the nature of the loan. I am just telling
6 you for your own interest but I am saying to you, you must
7 get your own legal advice on it.
8 MR DONALD: Okay.
9 ADV NEL: But I did mention to you
10 earlier that this type of loan is classified as a short
11 term loan.
12 MR DONALD: Mm.
13 ADV NEL: So the interest rates on a
14 short term loan would be higher than the interest rates on
15 a long term loan.
16 MR DONALD: Ja.
17 ADV NEL: So all of these are factors
18 that have to be taken into account.
19 MR DONALD: Okay.
20 ADV NEL: There are various laws in South
21 Africa that are strict, that protect lenders, borrowers and
22 consumers. So it is certainly not that, you know we are
23 allowed to charge any interest in South Africa as compared
24 to the Americas or the EU. There are restrictions.
25 MR DONALD: Okay.
Page 778
1 ADV NEL: You’ll have to take that up,
2 but whatever happens the court would not grant an interest
3 rate that it is not entitled to grant against you.
4 MR DONALD: Okay.
5 ADV NEL: And Mr Laher will consider all
6 of that. He’ll take that into account, but you know for
7 your own interest you should speak to Mr Brummer or
8 whoever, whichever attorney you are seeing about the
9 interest rates –
10 MR DONALD: Well, what I’ll probably end
11 up doing is properly get, once my property is sold I’ll get
12 my attorney to come here to sort this out, okay. I don’t
13 think, I mean I am open and fair and I hope Mr Laher and
14 everybody else is open and fair as well.
15 ADV NEL: Yes.
16 MR DONALD: Okay.
17 ADV NEL: There is a National Credit Act
18 here which regulates all of this. So –
19 MR DONALD: Okay.
20 ADV NEL: It will be transparent.
21 MR DONALD: Okay, thank you very much.
22 The only concern is because of I am not fully aware of the
23 situation between CJ and what all transpired, all I know is
24 what he did, collapsed.
25 ADV NEL: Yes.
Page 779
1 MR DONALD: So I am going to step in for
2 the surety to make sure that this gets taken care of.
3 ADV NEL: Mr Donald, if we had Mr Bornman
4 here we would be seeking the money from him as well and in
5 fact there is also an application for default judgment
6 against him.
7 MR DONALD: Okay.
8 ADV NEL: So it is not that anybody is
9 being ignored here.
10 MR DONALD: No, no, I –
11 ADV NEL: Or you particularly not being
12 targeted –
13 MR DONALD: No, even if CJ, I mean I have
14 no intentions to push anything against CJ. I will assume
15 responsibility and I will state that for the record.
16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you.
17 MR DONALD: And I will make sure that
18 this gets taken care of. In the meantime putting on the
19 table, the interest rates we need to discuss.
20 ADV NEL: Those will all be resolved and
21 Mr Laher will discuss all of that with you and explain it
22 to you.
23 MR DONALD: Okay.
24 ADV NEL: And as I said you are welcome
25 of course to take independently advice for that.
Page 780
1 MR DONALD: Okay.
2 ADV NEL: Thank you very much.
3 MR DONALD: Thank you very much, guys.
4 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr Donald.
5 I am going to excuse you, thank you.
6 MR DONALD: Okay.
7 [NO FURTHER QUESTIONS - WITNESS EXCUSED]
8 [11:21] PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much,
9 we are back on record. Dr Grieve, we do not have anything
10 further for today. We do not want to postpone this inquiry
11 to a specific day because we think we have finalised
12 everything. But what I am going to ask you is if I can
13 have your undertaking on record that should in future we
14 give you reasonable notice, i.e. two weeks, if you could
15 make yourself available on a telephone call with reasonable
16 notice. Are you prepared to give us that undertaking?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, thank you. If
19 there is a huge problem then we will work around it but we
20 just don’t want to specify a date and then we don’t get
21 around to that date.
22 DR GRIEVE: That’s fine, I will volunteer
23 that. That is not a problem. A telephone call is fine and
24 specifically pertaining to these guys, if there is any
25 chance that you can get anything out of them I will make

Page 781
1 myself available here if it needs to be as well, it is not
2 an issue.
3 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you for
4 that.
5 ADV NEL: Sorry, Dr Grieve, your contact
6 details that you have given us are they still the same?
7 DR GRIEVE: They are still the same.
8 ADV NEL: Same phone number, email,
9 residential address?
10 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
11 ADV NEL: Thank you.
12 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much
13 everyone.
14 DR GRIEVE: I am going to send that email
15 out, I am not going to say when because it is going to take
16 a couple of days to compile it. Leaving early now I can
17 actually still go and do a job that I have got on ice.
18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay no, of course.
19 DR GRIEVE: But before the weekend I will
20 have it out and I will have my contact details refreshed
21 again anyway, they are still the same, but you will have
22 them on that email again as well. That will got to Bianca
23 and to the chairlady.
24 PRESIDING OFFICER: I will go through it
25 and if there is anything that I can do then I will take
Page 782
1 action and inform you.
2 DR GRIEVE: I doubt whether there is
3 anything you can do, but just be aware of it.
4 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you,
5 everyone, I am postponing this inquiry sine die.
6 [INQUIRY ADJOURNED]
7 .
8 .
9 .
10 .
11 .
12 .
13 .
14 .
15 .
16 .
17 .
18 .
19 .
20 .
21 .
22 .
23 .
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25 .

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781:11,12 782:4
that’s 731:20,22 732:10
735:4 740:6,13
742:10 744:14 749:21
750:9,9 751:8 754:16
754:21 755:16 759:12
759:17 761:9 763:5
763:19 764:1 769:24
774:7 780:22
there’s 751:3 753:18
they’ve 756:1,2,23
763:10,10
thing 740:21 749:15
776:17
things 734:6 735:18,22
739:12
think 731:10 733:22
738:7 739:2,15,25
742:14,20 743:5
748:4,5 750:8,21
752:2,19 765:5
766:10,17 768:15
778:13 780:11
threatened 761:21
threatening 737:8
threats 733:19,22
735:11,17,17 736:13
737:6
three 731:11 742:16
761:18,22 762:19
763:13,16 775:14,21
775:21
tidy 763:12
till 748:11
Tim 752:20 754:25
755:6
time 744:25,25 749:1
751:18 752:9,13,24
761:9,19 762:7 765:6
766:10,23 768:16
times 737:19 761:18
769:24
title 743:8
today 729:2 733:18
748:11 766:10,20
767:4,16 771:8
780:10
toilet 766:14
Toit 754:25 755:6
Toit’s 752:20
told 747:20 766:18
775:12
top 759:11
totally 754:16
touch 762:1
touched 760:24
tough 734:9
transaction 743:7
753:15 769:12
transcription 729:10
757:25
transferred 741:23
742:6,7,8 765:4
translate 772:16,24
transparent 778:20
transpired 778:23
tried 766:14
true 735:3,3
trust 744:16 755:23
756:11 765:25
truth 730:4,4,5 733:2,2
733:3 735:9 758:13
758:13,14
try 735:24 738:12
739:23 758:25 760:16
772:24
trying 735:23 741:17
748:4 762:13 763:6
turn 744:8 745:5
753:17 755:2 759:10
772:3
two 731:16,20 753:1,17
754:2 763:9 766:13
775:12,14 780:14
type 739:1 748:13
777:10
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uncle 761:2
uncle’s 761:3
uncomfortable 733:11
758:24
understand 730:10
743:20 747:20 748:22
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768:5 769:21 772:22
774:12
understandable 776:13
understanding 741:20
744:10 754:20 773:24
775:2
undertake 773:2
undertaking 748:2,16
748:19,24,24 749:3,5
749:12,19 780:13,16
undertook 773:10
United 731:12,13,24
732:1,2,4
University 762:23
unnecessarily 733:16
unpleasant 738:17
untraceable 736:15
upfront 775:23
upsetting 761:1
use 744:6
usurious 777:2
usury 776:19
V
vague 750:9
various 733:25 734:6,8
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752:21 777:20
Villiers 737:6,11
visit 761:7
volunteer 780:22
W
waiting 743:2,6 761:23
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walk 762:14
walked 761:9
walking 762:15
walls 735:7,10
want 733:15 738:7
750:8 755:15 756:18
763:12 769:17 775:23
775:23 780:10,20
wanted 744:1
wants 764:16
warped 735:8
wasn’t 749:11 751:17
761:11 766:18 767:4
771:8
watching 766:15
water 765:9
way 734:11 735:1 736:5
740:11 743:15 750:2
websites 736:13,18,25
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week 775:14
weekend 781:19
weeks 736:8 763:13
775:12,14,15 780:14
welcome 779:24
went 743:1 761:6,10,10
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Page 6
736:21 737:5 762:2
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what’s 734:22 775:22
whereabouts 771:12
whichever 747:8 778:8
wife 735:16,16
windows 761:7 762:8
witness 729:11 732:19
780:7
Wolmarans 767:24
woman 760:24 761:12
wonderful 736:10
won’t 775:8
word 739:4 769:17
words 774:4
work 735:23 736:7,9
762:5 780:19
working 736:12 748:6
748:7
worth 765:5,6,7
wouldn’t 747:5 754:6
written 748:24 749:5
759:13,13
wrong 742:15 754:16
754:22
X
X 734:17
Y
Y 734:17
year 769:8 770:17
years 742:16 761:16
young 761:15
you’ll 733:11 740:7
744:9 745:21 750:18
751:3 775:12 776:23
778:1
you’ve 729:14 743:15
767:13 774:18
Z
Z 734:17
$
$1.9 769:9
0
000 744:2,16 755:12,19
756:10,16,18 762:11
762:11 764:17 765:8
765:15 766:2 769:24
770:1,2 773:2,11
050 755:8 770:2
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1
1.1 765:6
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100 765:8
100% 733:23 743:16
11:11 774:18
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13 759:10
15 735:13
18 761:3
2
20 753:11
2009 730:25 731:3
755:11 756:19 757:3
770:2
2011 729:1,3
22 750:21,25 751:1
22nd 731:1
25 751:7,8 772:3
26 751:7,19 772:7
27 730:25
27th 731:1,3
3
30 773:2
31 756:25 757:3
31st 756:20
4
450 769:24
5
500 745:11
57 773:4
6
6 759:13
699 756:16
8
8 729:1 755:11 756:19
8th 729:2 770:19
80 762:11
9
9th 770:17
90 762:11

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 3 - 8 February 2011

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Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 3 - 8 February 2011