Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 2 - 2 November 2010

Web Address: http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/pak06278
RealTime Transcriptions
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Avenue, Highlands North, Johannesburg
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E-mail: realtime@pixie.co.za
TRANSCRIPTION OF THE
INSOLVENCY INQUIRY
IN TERMS OF SECTION 417, 418 OF THE COMPANIES ACT
INTO THE AFFAIRS OF THE INSOLVENT ESTATE OF
DRS DS GRIEVES BRIDGING SOLUTIONS
(PTY) LIMITED
(IN LIQUIDATION)
MASTERS REFERENCE T0240/10
BEFORE
MS R BEKKER
HELD ON
02 NOVEMBER 2010 PAGES 315 TO 551
HELD AT
BOWMAN GILFILLAN, WEST STREET, SANDTON
© REALTIME TRANSCRIPTIONS

2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry
Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
Page 315
1 [PROCEEDINGS ON 2 NOVEMBER 2010]
2 [09:34] COMMISSIONER: Let’s all switch our
3 phones off, thank you. Thank you very much. We are on
4 record. Today is the 2nd of November 2010. We are
5 proceeding in our inquiry in the matter of Dr D S Grieve
6 Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in liquidation). Parties
7 present, we have counsel, Mr Gerry Nel, instructed by Mr
8 Haroon Laher, of both Bowman Gilfillan and he’s assisted by
9 Ms Bianca Masterton and Mr Bele Kathrada. We have Dr
10 Grieve this morning and Robyn Cohen, who’s doing our
11 transcription. Dr Grieve, before we went on record, I just
12 enquired about Mr Storm’s whereabouts and you told me that
13 he’s still ill.
14 DR GRIEVE: That’s what I’ve heard, ja.
15 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Are you still
16 comfortable speaking to us without Mr Storm?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 COMMISSIONER: Okay. And then of course
19 you’ll bring it to my attention the moment that you become
20 uncomfortable?
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Just place you
23 under oath again, please.
24 DR GRIEVE: d.s.s
25 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
Page 316
1 Please proceed, Mr Nel.
2 ADV NEL: Thank you, Madam Commissioner.
3 Dr Grieve, morning. We discussed yesterday near the close
4 of proceedings the agreement of sale in respect of the Mooi
5 Kloof property, do you recall that?
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 ADV NEL: And in that regard you had paid
8 a deposit of R1.5 million or let me rather say Village Star
9 Trading had paid a deposit of R1.5 million, isn’t that so?
10 DR GRIEVE: In terms of the actual
11 agreement sale, the purchaser was Village Star Trading.
12 ADV NEL: The money that was used to pay
13 that deposit, the R1.5 million, am I correct that that came
14 directly from the R2.5 million that you had transferred to
15 your private account from the money, R4.4 odd million
16 received from William Grieve?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 ADV NEL: And we know that that R4.4
19 million was intended for Bridging Solutions, isn’t that
20 correct?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: So that R1.5 million that you
23 used to pay the deposit, that was money intended for
24 Bridging Solutions, not so?
25 DR GRIEVE: Can I elaborate with a bit
Page 317
1 more of a lengthy answer there?
2 ADV NEL: Yes.
3 DR GRIEVE: In terms of our agreement, if
4 you’re looking at the black and white, yes, okay? But in
5 the same breath, Bill was in the country and he actually
6 went with me to that property and he was fully aware that
7 we were going to use it as – a part of that, for that
8 deposit on the house and he was aware that that would be
9 used for that purpose. His understanding was that we would
10 replace that money as we got the money from Creda or from
11 Mr Veldkamp. So I understand what the contract says, yes,
12 and I concede to that, but he was aware of the property.
13 He actually visited the property with us and he actually
14 took some photographs of the property as well.
15 ADV NEL: But was he aware that of this
16 R4.4 million you were going to use some of those funds as a
17 deposit on a property in circumstances where that deposit
18 may be forfeited entirely?
19 DR GRIEVE: I don’t believe he was aware
20 of that, no.
21 ADV NEL: Did he ever see that agreement
22 of sale that was concluded?
23 DR GRIEVE: No.
24 ADV NEL: So what we have is the written,
25 which you conceded records that that full R4.4 million must
Page 318
1 go to Bridging Solutions?
2 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
3 ADV NEL: So you would agree with me that
4 that R1.5 million that was used as a deposit, is in fact
5 Bridging Solutions finances – Bridging Solutions money,
6 would you agree with that?
7 DR GRIEVE: In terms of the agreement,
8 yes, I’ve already elaborated.
9 ADV NEL: Yes. You transferred, as we
10 went through yesterday, R2.5 million to your private
11 account of that R4.4 million.
12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
13 ADV NEL: Did you record that as a loan
14 by Bridging Solutions to yourself?
15 DR GRIEVE: I find that difficult to
16 answer because I would have to have a set of financial
17 statements that was drawn up and if we had done that, yes,
18 it would have been recorded, but I mean we obviously did
19 not have financial statements prepared at that point in
20 time, so ultimately, yes, that would have been how it would
21 have been recorded. It would have had to have been
22 recorded that way, because that’s what happened.
23 ADV NEL: But did you have books of
24 account?
25 DR GRIEVE: We had some books of account

Page 319
1 –
2 ADV NEL: Did Bridging Solutions have
3 books of account?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes, we had some books of
5 account. We went through a few bookkeepers, so they were a
6 bit muddled up because we didn’t have any continuity in
7 bookkeepers, but there were some accounting records, of
8 which, already previously stated, were – everything in the
9 office was taken by, I believe, Paul Marias and/or
10 associates of him.
11 ADV NEL: Right. So, yes, what you’re
12 saying is it wasn’t recorded, but the intention was to
13 record it as such?
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 ADV NEL: From yourself to Village Star –
16 your private account, the money went to Village Star, was
17 that recorded as a loan from Bridging Solutions to Village
18 Star?
19 DR GRIEVE: I want to shorten the answer
20 and say the same as before.
21 ADV NEL: Okay, and I assume that you
22 also did not record that payment of R1.5 million as a loan
23 from yourself to Village Star either? It wasn’t recorded
24 in Village Star’s books as a loan from you?
25 DR GRIEVE: No, because the books hadn’t
Page 320
1 been prepared yet, but it would have been.
2 ADV NEL: Would you agree with me, Dr
3 Grieve, that what we end up with here, having considered
4 all these steps, is that Bridging Solutions paid that
5 deposit – amount of R1.5 million?
6 DR GRIEVE: I’ll concede to that, ja.
7 ADV NEL: I’d like you to turn to the
8 file, I think it’s marked volume 1.
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 ADV NEL: Page 49 of that bundle and
11 while you’re paging through it, I’m just going to put it
12 into context for you. It’s the founding affidavit that was
13 filed in support of the application by William Grieve for
14 the liquidation of Bridging Solutions. So this is the
15 affidavit that was deposed to by William Grieve himself.
16 Do you have page 49?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 ADV NEL: If you can look at the bottom
19 of that page, paragraph 21?
20 DR GRIEVE: Mm.
21 ADV NEL: William states under oath that,
22 “I decided to visit my brother in South Africa to coincide
23 with is birthday on 28 August 2009. Apart from the day of
24 my arrival, when David was in Cape Town, I spent my entire
25 visit to the country with David and Sanet. Sanet is your
Page 321
1 wife, is that correct?
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: Are you still married to Sanet?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: We spoke extensively about our
6 lives. David drove me around showing me property after
7 property owned by him. Now, all of these properties that
8 you showed William, have these properties all been recorded
9 in your sequestration application as properties
10 surrendered?
11 DR GRIEVE: If we can use the term “the
12 Group,” yes. If you say voluntary sequestration, I get a
13 bit muddled up, are you talking about me or –
14 ADV NEL: Yes, I’m talking about your own
15 sequestration. You voluntarily surrendered your estates?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes, all those properties
17 were surrendered or were all set out as assets.
18 ADV NEL: He says you also took him to
19 the respondent’s offices, where all appeared to be
20 operating and functioning well. Respondent is Bridging
21 Solutions.
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
23 ADV NEL: All of that so far correct?
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 ADV NEL: He continues, “David also
Page 322
1 briefed me on the business of the respondent, indicating
2 strong growth pattern and offering me higher return than
3 those originally contracted for my investment.” Is that
4 correct?
5 DR GRIEVE: I can’t remember that detail
6 specifically –
7 ADV NEL: Did you tell William that
8 Bridging Solutions is experiencing strong growth patterns?
9 DR GRIEVE: I said there was a high
10 demand for it, so I did lead him under that impression,
11 yes.
12 ADV NEL: He continues, “I did not ask
13 for payment of any return on my investments, neither did
14 David offer payment of any returns to me. I waited until
15 the loans fell due for repayment, believing that my total
16 investment, inclusive of the returns due to me, would be
17 repatriated with the necessary Reserve Bank approval.” Do
18 you dispute any portion of that statement?
19 DR GRIEVE: No.
20 ADV NEL: The next paragraph he
21 continues, “It was during this visit, after revealing my
22 financial position to David, which was very much reliant on
23 the remaining amount of £350 000 held in the bank account,
24 which I had planned to use as an investment to start a
25 family business with the imminent redundancy of my wife,

Page 323
1 that David persuaded me to invest these funds for a very
2 short period of time.” Is that a correct statement?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: He says, or he continues, “He
5 personally guaranteed the repayment of this amount within a
6 short period of time, as he has done with the two previous
7 advances. He also personally assured me of the safety and
8 security of my investment.” Is all of that correct?
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 ADV NEL: He continues, “There were
11 several other exchanges during my visit when David
12 personally guaranteed the safety of my investment and that
13 he would make good any loss suffered by me.” Is that
14 correct?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: And this we know was at the end
17 of August, around the time of your birthday on the 29th of
18 August.
19 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
20 ADV NEL: At that time, Dr Grieve, you
21 were already aware of the precarious financial position
22 that Bridging Solutions was in, not so?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: Can I ask you to turn to page
25 55 of –
Page 324
1 DR GRIEVE: May I interrupt there
2 quickly?
3 ADV NEL: Yes.
4 DR GRIEVE: I see that he’s listed a
5 whole lot of entities here, which are not necessarily
6 correct at all. Is that relevant?
7 ADV NEL: It’s certainly not relevant for
8 what I’m going to ask you, but if you believe it’s
9 relevant, you must comment.
10 DR GRIEVE: The thing referred to as
11 Audit Kay cc, or something, I had in my student days and I
12 sold off many, many years. I think before the year 2000,
13 so that’s very old stuff. S&B Financial Consultants the
14 same, Mercatura, the same. It’s stuff that I had sold off
15 years, years ago. It was just shelf companies that I’d
16 sold through an auditor to somebody else.
17 COMMISSIONER: I think – sorry, if I can
18 perhaps interject, you know, Cipro is not very up to date
19 and I think if I understand what William is saying here, is
20 that he went to Cipro’s office and he probably put your ID
21 in and this was the information that was given to him.
22 DR GRIEVE: Apologies for the
23 interruption, I just wanted to –
24 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine. If you
25 want to take it further, as I explained to you yesterday,
Page 325
1 you have a limited right of, you know, Mr Storm or
2 yourself, at the end of your evidence, you do have the
3 right to clarify certain issues.
4 DR GRIEVE: That’s fine, okay.
5 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Let’s proceed.
6 ADV NEL: Thank you, page 55, Dr Grieve.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: Paragraph 42, it’s quite a long
9 paragraph, I’m going to read and ask you just to confirm.
10 This is William’s words, “In the discussions I had with my
11 brother, prior to and during my visit in late August 2009,
12 my brother led me to believe that the respondent was in
13 need of capital for growth.” Do you agree with that
14 statement?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: “There was no indication that
17 the respondent was facing financial collapse, or that the
18 respondent was close to financial ruin.” Is that correct?
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 ADV NEL: “The fact that the respondent
21 was embarking on a program of growth is also clearly
22 evident from the investment proposal which is dated
23 September 2009.” Do you agree with that statement?
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 ADV NEL: “Prior to the catastrophic news
Page 326
1 breaking on 1 December 2009, David committed himself to
2 repay my last advance of £350 000 by the end of February
3 2010.” Is that correct?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: “I am appalled at the extent to
6 which things have turned around. Whilst I have no
7 knowledge of the dissipation of assets of the respondent,
8 it must stand to logic that some or the other expense or
9 liability must have caused the depletion of my funds
10 recently advanced to the respondent. Sue and I,” that’s
11 William’s wife, is that correct?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 ADV NEL: “- asked my brother and Sanet
14 to come clean and explain the root cause of the
15 respondent’s financial demise.” Is that correct? Was that
16 request addressed to you?
17 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
18 ADV NEL: He says, “Nothing has been
19 forthcoming from them.” Is that correct?
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, why didn’t you
22 explain to William what had caused the demise of Bridging
23 Solutions?
24 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I’m going to just take
25 two steps back there and first of all just quickly respond

Page 327
1 to the proposal. He was aware that there was pressure on
2 the business, he did not understand the full extremeness of
3 that pressure absolutely, and that specific proposal, I
4 told him I was trying to find a corporate funder to replace
5 Presidium and he actually helped work on that proposal,
6 with the idea that he might know of a corporate funder that
7 could potentially be interested and that’s where that
8 proposal came out, okay? So he actually had a little bit
9 to do with that proposal as well, in terms of some of the
10 graphs and inputs and suggestions that he actually made.
11 That’s the first response. I’m not trying to say that he
12 was aware of – what’s the term he used, the predicament or
13 the precarious predicament of the business, no, he was not
14 fully aware of it, but he did know that there was pressure
15 and I needed to replace Presidium and he was contemplating
16 helping me to try and find such a potential corporate
17 funder. Secondly – I’ve just got to think here now,
18 because this was a long paragraph – secondly –
19 ADV NEL: All I asked was just, why you
20 did not explain –
21 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I had actually
22 explained to him, I did send him an email and the kind of
23 responses I got were both a threat on myself and on my life
24 and on my wife, and they were very horrible threats and we
25 got them from various sources and I still responded and
Page 328
1 apologising for the situation and I regret ever having done
2 it and I actually did send such responses and I explained
3 to him what went wrong and that we had basically messed up
4 and I did actually offer him an explanation. He wasn’t
5 happy with the explanation, perhaps, but there was some
6 communication back and forth, and obviously he hasn’t
7 accepted the communication and I regret that, but there was
8 some communication.
9 ADV NEL: Okay, it continues, “My
10 brother’s only response has been that there will be enough
11 to go around for distribution amongst creditors.” Is that
12 something that you said to him?
13 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall what my exact
14 wording was, but I would have said that there – I don’t
15 think the word “enough” is, I don’t think, necessarily the
16 word I would have used, it could have been, but I did say
17 there will be some - there is still some debtors out there,
18 if we can collect them, that there would be something for
19 the creditors.
20 ADV NEL: He continues, “In other words,
21 my investment is not secure and never was.” Do you agree
22 with that statement?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: He says, “I had no reason to
25 believe that my brother had any underhanded or fraudulent
Page 329
1 motive. I was always comfortable in the knowledge that my
2 investment was secure and risk-free and that my brother was
3 there as guarantor to cover any loss that I may suffer.”
4 Did you lead William to believe that the investment was
5 secure and risk-free?
6 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to answer yes to
7 that. Risk-free is a strong word, but I would have perhaps
8 used the word like minimal risk or little risk, so in the
9 bigger context, yes.
10 ADV NEL: Certainly, Dr Grieve, when you
11 took the last loan of £350 000, you could not have believed
12 that the investment would be secure and risk-free, could
13 you?
14 DR GRIEVE: I honestly believed that it
15 was still secure, because I could cover it from Creda
16 Finance and that’s what I based that on.
17 ADV NEL: Page 56, paragraph 47. And I
18 quote, William says, “I have clearly been misled by my
19 brother. His fraudulent and deceptive approach resulted in
20 me advancing my life savings to him. This dishonesty,
21 recklessness and maladministration on the part of David
22 must be thoroughly investigated. The myriad of other
23 entities associated with David, and quite possibly also
24 Sanet, needs to be investigated and so does all inter-
25 related transactions involving assets of the respondent. I
Page 330
1 find it unacceptable that the company that provided an
2 absolutely risk-free investment opportunity and which was,
3 at least until November 2009, flourishing and looking for
4 further investment to meet growth opportunities, now finds
5 itself in a bankrupt and distressed financial situation,
6 unable to repay investors and creditors.” Did you lead
7 William to believe until November 2009 that Bridging
8 Solutions was still flourishing and needed to grow, needed
9 to find investors for growth opportunities?
10 [09:54] DR GRIEVE: Flourishing is harsh. I
11 would have led him to believe that it was still okay, yes,
12 and I would have, yes. I would just like to ask what
13 misfeasance means?
14 COMMISSIONER: Misfeasance.
15 ADV NEL: Well, it’s a form of being
16 dishonest and corrupt.
17 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
18 ADV NEL: I would like to ask you to
19 please turn to page 63. This document, what was it
20 prepared for?
21 DR GRIEVE: This document according to my
22 recollection was prepared for Bill and we were going to try
23 and raise a replacement funder with this – I'm just trying
24 to see. We wanted to try and raise a replacement funder
25 for Presidium from this document according to me.

Page 331
1 ADV NEL: But was it only prepared for
2 Bill?
3 DR GRIEVE: I had much earlier on, I had
4 another one that I would have used initially when I was
5 trying to raise funds years prior, which I probably would
6 have given to Presidium when we concluded that agreement,
7 and I think round about that time when I was looking –
8 that’s in the early days, that’s even before 2009, I'm
9 talking about 2008 I think. I would have used such a
10 document to approach a group of angel investors as they
11 would call themselves on a website and see if I could get
12 any interest, which I didn’t get any interest on. Since
13 then I found this document popping up everywhere and it has
14 led to look as if I've been posting it on certain websites,
15 which has not been the case at all, as well as certain
16 other stuff that has been posted all over the internet to
17 incriminate me further, and I am not happy about it, but
18 that’s what I've seen happen. So ja it looks bad, but I
19 did not post any of that there. The only thing I posted
20 and that was I believe as early as 2008 when things were
21 going well. I did post something once off and that was an
22 angel investment network and I had to actually have to pay
23 to have it posted there. It was trivial, it was like R50
24 or R120 or something that you had to pay just to post
25 something, and I actually never got a response from that,
Page 332
1 so that this was something that I would have used elsewhere
2 yes, ja.
3 COMMISSIONER: Forgive me I don’t
4 understand you. You say you would have used and you should
5 have used it, and I'm not quite sure. Who prepared this
6 document? Let's get back to the question.
7 DR GRIEVE: This specific one here was
8 prepared 80% by me 20% by William Grieve.
9 COMMISSIONER: Was he a co-author of this
10 document?
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes. A co-author – he
12 bounced it back and forth with me quite a few times
13 suggesting I do this and that, and add this and add that
14 and helped me add some of those things, yes.
15 COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
16 ADV NEL: Thank you. And when you say
17 co-author, presumably the information contained in this
18 document emanates from you not from William.
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I concede to that, yes.
20 ADV NEL: So when you say he was a co-
21 author, was he simply helping you to neaten it up, to tidy
22 it up?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes, no fair enough.
24 ADV NEL: And what was your intention
25 with this document, what were you going to do with it?
Page 333
1 DR GRIEVE: Ultimately I was hoping to
2 get funding to replace Presidium, that was my intention.
3 ADV NEL: But you can't just get funding
4 by preparing a document. Were you going to present it to
5 somebody, this document?
6 DR GRIEVE: I don’t know. Its something
7 that Bill actually asked for, so I don’t know what he was
8 going to do with it.
9 COMMISSIONER: Well, was he going to find
10 a replacement funder for Presidium, is that what you
11 intimated?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes. Not necessary for the
13 full amount, but he was going to see what he could do.
14 ADV NEL: This was prepared by it looks
15 like it in September 2009. Is that correct?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: Is that when William was here
18 on holiday visiting you?
19 DR GRIEVE: I think he had left. I think
20 it was done via Skype and emailing. I think he had already
21 left.
22 ADV NEL: Did you present this document
23 to anybody other than William?
24 DR GRIEVE: I may have, I can't recall.
25 ADV NEL: Well let's turn to page 65 of
Page 334
1 this document, the heading is Executive Summary, the third
2 paragraph re; “What makes this business model very secure,
3 is that at no time does money get loaned without a
4 guarantee been held from the bank, linked to an attorney’s
5 undertaking, or security held against an asset well in
6 excess of a 70% loan to un-incumbent equity max of the loan
7 amount.” This is something you recorded in September 2009.
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: Yet at this time you were
10 already aware of debtors not paying Bridging Solutions, not
11 so?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 ADV NEL: How could you then possibly at
14 that time suggest that this model is very secure? Can you
15 answer that?
16 DR GRIEVE: I can answer that.
17 ADV NEL: Yes.
18 DR GRIEVE: And its not a good answer,
19 but that’s the only answer I can offer is that, in the
20 preceding six or seven years that it had been so, and
21 obviously in 2009 that was not the case anymore.
22 ADV NEL: But certainly prior to you
23 making this statement it was no longer the case.
24 DR GRIEVE: No, it was no longer the
25 case.

Page 335
1 ADV NEL: If you turn to page 66, the
2 last paragraph on that page reads, “This opportunity gives
3 the investor the ideal chance to earn a good constant
4 secure return on their money without having any sleepless
5 nights.” Do you see that?
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 ADV NEL: Is that an accurate statement?
8 DR GRIEVE: Not at this stage. no.
9 ADV NEL: Was it an accurate statement in
10 September 2009?
11 DR GRIEVE: No.
12 ADV NEL: No.
13 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, I was actually
14 referring to September 2009 the date of this document,
15 sorry.
16 COMMISSIONER: Okay, no that is fine.
17 ADV NEL: Page 67 sets out your
18 qualifications, Dr Grieve, and it records there that you
19 did an advanced management programme.
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: When did you obtain that
22 qualification?
23 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe, I'm not 100% certain,
24 I'd actually have to go and have a look at the certificate.
25 Around about 2000/2001. I don’t want to be quoted on that.
Page 336
1 ADV NEL: Well, that’s good enough for
2 me, because some of the subjects you did there were
3 financial accounting – management accounting, business
4 management. Not so?
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 ADV NEL: Yet despite obtaining this post
7 degree qualification from Manchester Business School,
8 particularly in subjects like financial accounting and
9 management accounting, you didn’t do any accounting did
10 you?
11 DR GRIEVE: No.
12 ADV NEL: Last paragraph on that same
13 page. “Dr Grieve has a personal rental property portfolio
14 with an overall value in excess of R20 million. Is that
15 correct?
16 DR GRIEVE: Why I'm a bit silent now, I'm
17 trying to think just how to answer this in a logic way. I
18 don’t think we can say that’s totally correct, but a motive
19 why I feel that it is actually perhaps true, and that is
20 because not all my properties were necessarily that I was
21 renting out in my private name, but it was in an entity
22 that belonged to me and I felt that that property was then
23 part of my personal portfolio of properties, and I feel
24 that at that stage that the basket of property portfolios I
25 owned was in a value of that more or less.
Page 337
1 ADV NEL: Yes.
2 COMMISSIONER: So it’s incorrect? So it
3 wasn’t in your personal name?
4 DR GRIEVE: No.
5 COMMISSIONER: And you know exactly what
6 the difference is having something in your personal name
7 and owning something in an entity. Because we've seen
8 there financial accounting –
9 DR GRIEVE: Okay fair enough. Then this
10 is not correct.
11 COMMISSIONER: It’s not correct, another
12 exaggeration.
13 ADV NEL: On that same page it refers to
14 the Wilderness Protea Hotel, it records that – is it the
15 Grieve Group, I'm not certain from this paragraph, whether
16 the Grieve Group is a shareholder or whether you are a
17 shareholder.
18 DR GRIEVE: Which paragraph is that?
19 ADV NEL: At the bottom of page 67.
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: It says, “Dr Grieve has a
22 personal rental property portfolio with an overall value in
23 excess of R 20 million. He is the principle figure behind
24 the Grieve Group which also has a small construction
25 business and is also a shareholder and a member of the
Page 338
1 board of trustees of the Wilderness Protea Hotel? I assume
2 that is the reference to you in your personal capacity?
3 DR GRIEVE: With what the, Chairlady, has
4 just told me, then this will be incorrect.
5 ADV NEL: Which entity is then a
6 shareholder of the Wilderness Protea Hotel?
7 DR GRIEVE: Two entities, Nanina cc,
8 there's some number behind it, I can't recall which one,
9 but I'm sure you will be able to assist me there. And then
10 there were five of these sectional title units in that
11 Nanina cc, and two in the incorporated company.
12 ADV NEL: Is that DS Grieve Incorporated?
13 DR GRIEVE: Correct. And in terms of the
14 Group if I can use that term, this would have been correct
15 in my opinion. But in terms of the definition bestowed on
16 me, no.
17 COMMISSIONER: Just for the record, Mr
18 Grieve. I haven't just bestowed on you that definition.
19 You’ve known that definition because I will find it highly
20 strange that nobody, through your studies through the
21 Manchester Business School, that did not bring that
22 definition to your attention.
23 DR GRIEVE: Ja, fair enough. Using the
24 term Group there, I would have tried to encompass that, but
25 I accept it.

Page 339
1 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Let's carry on.
2 ADV NEL: On page 68 at the bottom,
3 there's a heading Accountant, Auditors and Attorneys. It
4 says, “The accounts are audited annually by Mazar’s a well
5 known respected international integrated and independent
6 organisation.” Is that correct? Were Bridging Solutions
7 accounts audited annually by Mazar’s?
8 DR GRIEVE: It’s a bit of a double barrel
9 question. Yes, they were audited by Mizar’s, they were the
10 appointed auditors. Had they been audited, not up to date,
11 no. They had also replaced previously auditors PKF who had
12 to do an audit, and with them I had a lot of frustration
13 trying to get the work done, because they are a big
14 accounting firm and they are so publicly driven – a public
15 company driven, that I kept getting pushed to the back
16 burner and they just weren’t getting to it, they didn’t
17 have enough people in their office, and I replaced them
18 with Mizar’s and we I believe have done some audits. I
19 just can't remember if they had actually done audits on
20 this company as of yet.
21 COMMISSIONER: But that’s incorrect.
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
23 COMMISSIONER: That’s the short answer.
24 ADV NEL: If you can turn to page 72
25 please, Dr Grieve?
Page 340
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 ADV NEL: In approximately the middle of
3 the page, the paragraph that starts, “What also makes us an
4 attractive investment.” The last sentence of that
5 paragraph reads, “Therefore the investment capital will be
6 and is always well protected and secure.” Is that an
7 accurate statement as at September 2009?
8 DR GRIEVE: No.
9 ADV NEL: Same page under the heading
10 “Liability”. It is recorded, “At this time the company has
11 no liability other than monthly returns to a small group of
12 select investor’s enjoying the low cost benefits of
13 perpetual, significant, secure returns.” Accurate
14 statement, Dr Grieve?
15 DR GRIEVE: No.
16 ADV NEL: But this is the document that
17 you held out to William as being correct and which you may
18 or may not have presented to potential future investors.
19 Not so?
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: If you can turn to page 79.
22 The last paragraph starts, “One of the fastest ways the
23 business has grown has been by referral and word of mouth,
24 and the business could grow by R20 million per month with
25 almost no effort.” Is that an accurate statement to have
Page 341
1 made in September 2009?
2 DR GRIEVE: Not in terms of what was
3 going on inside the business, no.
4 ADV NEL: Right. If you can turn to page
5 82, that’s an annexure to William Grieve’s affidavit and
6 that document, Annexure D records email correspondence and
7 SMS correspondence between yourself and your wife and
8 William and his wife. In the middle of page 82, it says,
9 there's an email from Bill and Sue to yourself, 11th of
10 September 2009, and the second paragraph starts, “Just for
11 avoidance of problems and any misunderstandings Dave, the
12 recent transmission - £350 000, must be returned by end of
13 February latest please, if not earlier. This was done to
14 help you and only for that reason, this means that you need
15 to plan to free this amount up and apply to the South
16 African Reserve Bank for repatriation of the full amount
17 back to me, the application being done by mid November 2009
18 at the latest.” You received this email?
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 ADV NEL: And the next paragraph, note,
21 very important note, “I also want you please as this is a
22 critical part of my personal fund to plan for recovery back
23 to me. I cannot survive without this. In the event
24 something happens to you or a problem occurs on your visit
25 to China. I know it sounds extreme, but I shudder at what
Page 342
1 happened to Dawid, I hope you understand. I will not be
2 able to complete my relocation without it and the setback
3 on my will be too enormous to recover or recover from.”
4 This is what William tells you in his email in September
5 already?
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 ADV NEL: Did you ever reply to
8 repatriate that money through the South African Reserve
9 Bank?
10 DR GRIEVE: No.
11 ADV NEL: On page 83, that’s your
12 response to his lengthy email. You simply say, “I take
13 note of your comments and will react accordingly.” Is that
14 correct?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: Top of page 86. This is the
17 last paragraph in an email from you to William on the 25th
18 of November. You say, “Business is fine and running around
19 and chasing some deals that need to be chased a bit.”
20 That’s what you told him, is that correct?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: That was on the 25th of
23 November?
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 ADV NEL: We know that on the 1st of

Page 343
1 December a mere six days later, you applied to have not
2 only Bridging Solutions but a whole lot of other companies
3 and close corporations and yourself liquidated or
4 sequestrated. Not so?
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 ADV NEL: At the 25th of November you must
7 have known that at the very least, Bridging Solutions was
8 in dire straits. Not so?
9 DR GRIEVE: We were in dire straits, but
10 we still had the confidence that we would obtain the
11 funding from Creda, and that is why we waited until the
12 last due date from the last letter before we applied for
13 the winding up.
14 ADV NEL: When did you go and approach
15 your attorney to launch this winding up application?
16 DR GRIEVE: I can't recall the exact date
17 when we went.
18 ADV NEL: We know it was launched,
19 signed, served at court on the 1st of December.
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: How many days before that?
22 DR GRIEVE: That was a couple of days
23 before that.
24 ADV NEL: What is a couple, two, three?
25 DR GRIEVE: You will have to ask him. I
Page 344
1 honestly can't recollect exactly that. I just know that he
2 did it extremely, extremely quickly. It could have been a
3 day or two even before he actually lodged it.
4 [10:14] We jumped on that. I saw him the morning. That
5 afternoon he had some counsel that we saw and we were
6 already, in the next day I think they started to launch. I
7 would like to confirm it with him but that’s what I
8 recollect. It was two days or one day. I can’t remember
9 but it was very quick.
10 ADV NEL: Let me you ask you it in a
11 slightly different way. On the 25th, when you told William
12 Grieve that business is fine, was it fine?
13 DR GRIEVE: No, it wasn’t fine.
14 ADV NEL: Same page, 86, near the bottom.
15 You tell William in an e-mail, “Thanks for the extension.
16 I will apply to the South African Reserve Bank for
17 repatriation next week.” You told him that, not so?
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: Did you have any intention of
20 doing that?
21 DR GRIEVE: I would have indeed done that
22 had I received the monies from Creda.
23 ADV NEL: Were you expecting to receive
24 the money within the next week?
25 DR GRIEVE: Actually at that stage, yes,
Page 345
1 I was.
2 ADV NEL: If you turn to the top of page
3 87, perhaps you can explain that postscript that you’ve
4 added there. You say, “No, I am not on 45%, closer to 35%,
5 but that is just the overruns that catch one out at some
6 interest from time to time. Part of the game I guess.”
7 What did that mean?
8 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall exactly. I’m
9 thinking that it meant that that would be the average kind
10 of return from a deal, any deal.
11 ADV NEL: Okay. So you told him on the -
12 DR GRIEVE: I think I -
13 ADV NEL: - on the 25th of November that
14 your returns were closer to 35%.
15 DR GRIEVE: I guess that’s what, I was, I
16 might have been implying, yeah.
17 COMMISSIONER: You’re starting to sound
18 vague again. You were the author of the – it was just a
19 year, a few months ago.
20 DR GRIEVE: I accept that. I just can’t
21 recollect the postscript. I think sometimes you add things
22 like that very quickly without giving it much thought and I
23 can’t really recall what that was meant to say.
24 COMMISSIONER: Okay.
25 ADV NEL: On that same page, just below
Page 346
1 that, we find an e-mail from Dawid Fourie. Now that’s
2 addressed to William. Is Mr Fourie one of the creditors?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: Of Bridging Solutions?
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 ADV NEL: He writes to William and says,
7 in the second paragraphs, the second paragraph, I
8 apologise, “It appears that DS”, that’s obviously a
9 reference to yourself -
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: - “and his enterprises are
12 being liquidated with immediate effect. Also it appears
13 that there is a divorce looming and an end to their
14 marriage. I suspect these two incidents are closely
15 related.” We – you’ve told us that you didn’t get divorced
16 from your wife, Sanet. Is that correct?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 ADV NEL: But it appears that this
19 statement that your enterprises are being liquidated with
20 immediate effect. That was certainly the intention on 1
21 December, not so?
22 DR GRIEVE: What was the intention I
23 wanted -
24 ADV NEL: To liquidate or wind up all of
25 these legal entities.

Page 347
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 ADV NEL: You didn’t think that maybe it
3 would be better coming from you to tell William this?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes, it would have been
5 better.
6 ADV NEL: Did you make any attempt to
7 tell him?
8 DR GRIEVE: Not at that stage, no.
9 ADV NEL: Can I ask you turn to page 89,
10 Dr Grieve? This is an e-mail, the heading of it is at the
11 bottom of page 88. It was sent to you by William on the 1st
12 of December and he says, “David, what the hell is going on?
13 If you have lost my lifesavings I will never forgive you.
14 Bill.” Do you see that?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: Your response follows and you
17 say, “I have you protected. Relax. I will mail details to
18 you in 24 hours. Do not reply to this address and mail. I
19 will use a secret mail address. I have only you protected
20 and will explain all in 24 hours. Please give me a bit of
21 time to get back to you.” Did you have William protected
22 at all?
23 DR GRIEVE: No.
24 ADV NEL: Turn to page 90, please, Dr
25 Grieve. This is a sort of second e-mail from the top of
Page 348
1 the page. This is from your wife to William, not so? On
2 the 2nd of December and it records, “Hi, I am really sorry.
3 My attorney has instructed me not to talk to any creditors
4 at all. Please call him on 0123430267 or” and then there’s
5 a cell phone number. Is that something that you wrote or
6 your wife wrote?
7 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall who wrote
8 that, to be honest, but even if my wife wrote that I’m
9 aware of that text, so it could have been from me or her,
10 from either phone and I concede that I would have been co-
11 author or author of that irrespective of, from where it was
12 sent.
13 ADV NEL: You were the author, you say?
14 DR GRIEVE: I believe so, yes. I would
15 have said something to that extent.
16 ADV NEL: Isn’t it a bit strange that
17 your brother lends you in the region of R6.5 million,
18 things go wrong and you say to him, you’re just a creditor,
19 talk to my attorney? You don’t find that strange?
20 DR GRIEVE: That is strange and I can
21 elaborate a little bit. I treated him as a creditor. He
22 was my brother and, or half-brother, sorry, exactly. And I
23 treated him as a creditor only after, because I see that
24 we’ve got all these e-mails and stuff here but there was
25 some very serious threatening e-mails sent to me as well,
Page 349
1 alright, and I still have copies of those but the problem
2 is I can come and give them to you here. It’s not a major
3 issue but the problem is, with those e-mails, there’s
4 things that are said in those e-mails that only he as my
5 half-brother knows, but they’re not from him.
6 COMMISSIONER: And your point being?
7 DR GRIEVE: Well, I was receiving threats
8 on my life, on my family, from various sources of e-mails,
9 from various g-mail accounts with some strange names, okay,
10 and with all those threats coming through I was speaking to
11 my attorneys and they advised me not to speak to any of my
12 creditors including my brother. So I adhered to that
13 because of the threats and that is, yes, it is strange, but
14 that is why I did that.
15 ADV NEL: Mm. But the day before this
16 you say to him don’t worry, I’ve got you covered.
17 DR GRIEVE: I concede to that, ja.
18 ADV NEL: His wife responds to you and
19 says, “He is not a creditor, he is your brother who loves
20 you so much and you have ruined him and us as a family.
21 Hope you know what you are doing. Sue.” You received that
22 response?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: Further down she sends you
25 another text, on the 8th of December saying, “Bill loaned
Page 350
1 you everything including Richard’s university money to help
2 you. Hope you know what you are doing and are coping.
3 Sue.” Is Richard his son?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, there’s a whole lot
6 of personal e-mails that follow. I don’t want to take you
7 through all of them but perhaps if you can go to page 92 -
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: - there’s an e-mail sent on the
10 2nd of December to you and it records, “David, what are the
11 chances of recovering anything from your POV? Can we help
12 you in any way?” Your response is, “There will be some to
13 go around. Speak to Willem Storm.” Is that correct?
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 ADV NEL: Page 93, the second e-mail.
16 This appears to be an attempt by you to explain what
17 occurred.
18 DR GRIEVE: Can I interject quickly?
19 Just to elaborate on that, this was also at the stage where
20 my layman understanding is that we threw the whole lot in
21 for liquidation and sequestration under one parcel and
22 obviously then whatever surpluses came out of any of the,
23 the sale of the assets and properties, could be used to try
24 and help settle creditors and that is the grounds where I
25 said there should be some to go around, speak to Willem,

Page 351
1 because he had already got that list of all the assets and
2 stuff.
3 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, if we look at your
4 actual application for liquidation, voluntary surrender,
5 sequestration, they all record that your liabilities and
6 every entity liability exceeded its assets, not so?
7 DR GRIEVE: They were prepared by Willem
8 and I didn’t look at the detail. At that stage one is in
9 emotional distress as well. That could very well be so. I
10 could not tell you what the figures are in those
11 applications.
12 ADV NEL: Back to page 93, the second e-
13 mail. This is from you to William and appears to be an
14 explanation. You say, “Hi. I’m really sorry. Two large
15 investors pulled their funds.” Who are those large
16 investors who pulled their funds?
17 DR GRIEVE: Presidium and Blue Financial
18 Services.
19 COMMISSIONER: And who?
20 DR GRIEVE: Blue Financial Services.
21 COMMISSIONER: Blue Financial Services?
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
23 ADV NEL: Did Blue Financial Services
24 actually make an investment?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 352
1 ADV NEL: And did they withdraw that
2 investment?
3 DR GRIEVE: They asked for it but they
4 didn’t get it, no.
5 ADV NEL: Well, they couldn’t have pulled
6 their funds then, they -
7 DR GRIEVE: No.
8 ADV NEL: - they were simply just asking
9 for their money.
10 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
11 ADV NEL: But you couldn’t pay them back.
12 DR GRIEVE: No.
13 ADV NEL: You couldn’t pay Presidium
14 either.
15 DR GRIEVE: No.
16 ADV NEL: So the problems didn’t arise
17 because investors withdrew their money. Would you agree
18 with that?
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 COMMISSIONER: Another lie?
21 ADV NEL: And it continues and says, “And
22 three large clients folded on me all in the last two
23 weeks.” Who were those three large clients?
24 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to say that it was,
25 the clients I was referring to there was actually clients
Page 353
1 from a firm of attorneys, Ebersohn and Grobler and I was
2 unable to get money from them. They’re still lying on the
3 debtors book. I could they could be recovered. I don’t
4 how successfully. There’s a chance albeit small but those
5 are the ones I was referring to.
6 ADV NEL: Yes. Now you say they were
7 small?
8 DR GRIEVE: It’s about, sjoe, I can’t
9 give you exact figures. In terms of what would be
10 outstanding that’s probably very rounded off close to R1
11 million each. Some of them over R1 million. It’s probably
12 R4 million, maybe even a little bit more.
13 ADV NEL: You see, here you record them
14 as three large clients and you just said probably small
15 amounts. And there’s a distinction, isn’t there, Dr
16 Grieve?
17 DR GRIEVE: Well, is a million rand
18 client, small or large, I don’t know what the definition is
19 but I felt that they were fairly large, substantial.
20 ADV NEL: It wasn’t my words, it was your
21 words.
22 DR GRIEVE: Okay, alright.
23 ADV NEL: You said a small amount
24 recoverable. It continues to say, “William Storm has
25 instructed me not to talk to creditors. I was going to
Page 354
1 explain in detail then I received several threats on my
2 life. So please ask William Storm to explain what
3 happened.” So presumably there’s another explanation over
4 and above what you set out here. Is that so?
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 ADV NEL: What is that explanation? What
7 caused Bridging Solution’s demise?
8 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to say that
9 Bridging Solutions did business for about five or six years
10 without any major hiccoughs or problems, either in the
11 legal entity or in the business it was doing in my private
12 capacity. In the year of 2009 we started to pick up deal
13 stress and we started losing the odd deal here or there and
14 it started to accelerate. I made a few mistakes along the
15 way. Some of those mistakes was trying to match short term
16 funding from Presidium with a slightly longer term need in
17 a book. I rolled some of those loans on after being
18 promised an additional five million from Presidium and that
19 didn’t come so I had no reserves left and the big mistake I
20 made in the beginning of the year was to lend out fairly
21 large amounts to single, I want to use the term groups or
22 on single transactions and those transactions didn’t come
23 back fast enough, which put me under tremendous, tremendous
24 cash flow strain and that was the start of the stress. But
25 I still felt, even though the money was out in the field,

Page 355
1 as long as it started coming back, you know, it would come
2 back with the returns and we would still be fine. We just
3 needed to battle through and obviously then Presidium
4 started to get unhappy and they did their audit and they
5 weren’t happy with the findings. They started to put
6 pressure on us and, I mean, I fought the fight as hard as I
7 could trying to buy time, trying to get money in from the
8 debtors and then I started to get more debtors folding on
9 me and for the first time in the seven or eight years I was
10 in a total, almost new business, where attorneys’
11 undertakings weren’t worth much and previously they were
12 always honoured. So I had no stress. And then suddenly
13 these things were folding on me and, having those fold on
14 me obviously put me under severe pressure and we tried to,
15 to tackle a few of these attorneys as well but not very
16 successfully. And that just hurt me and it just led from
17 one thing to another. At the same time the construction
18 business picked up strain towards the middle of the year
19 when we had a few completed units that we wanted to sell
20 and I said that yesterday, suddenly we have to get people
21 that were buying to actually put up large deposits. And in
22 that price range, round figures, you’re talking about 100,
23 R150 000 that people would have to put down as a deposit.
24 So I was ending up carrying debt in that entity, which was
25 also more than I could manage. And that led to the
Page 356
1 multitude of mistakes that you’ve elaborated on and with
2 that I obviously concede to having mismanaged it and it
3 crashed.
4 And we still believe we could have resuscitated
5 it if we could get some nice, cheap funding large enough to
6 cover both entities and replace the other funding. And
7 that’s what we had hoped with Creda and that didn’t
8 transpire. And that’s when we realised this is now being
9 promised to us two or three times and it hasn’t happened,
10 that it’s not going to happen and that’s when we applied
11 for an urgent application. Does that answer your question?
12 ADV NEL: Yes, it does. I think the fact
13 that, you know, you indicate that, you know the
14 construction business was struggling. That of course know
15 has got nothing to do with Bridging Solutions but you used
16 the funds interchangeably between the various entities, not
17 so?
18 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I conceded to that
19 yesterday as well. Yes.
20 ADV NEL: I’m going to ask you to turn to
21 a lever arch file with the number 3 on it.
22 DR GRIEVE: I have the file.
23 ADV NEL: If you can turn to page 539.
24 This is an e-mail that you sent to Presidium on the 31st of
25 July 2009 and it relates to the sale of the Wilderness
Page 357
1 Resort Hotel.
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: Correct?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: Now, you record in the second
6 paragraph that, “You recommended I come up with a definite
7 plan of action to remedy the shortfall on the book and I
8 would like to suggest the following remedy. There are more
9 solutions in the pipeline but what I can table at the
10 moment with some support are the following.” And the first
11 one you record is that you placed your house in the market
12 and it may realise a sale in the near future.
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 ADV NEL: Was that property ever sold?
15 DR GRIEVE: No.
16 ADV NEL: Do you still reside in that
17 property?
18 DR GRIEVE: No.
19 ADV NEL: Is that the property at
20 Cornwall Hill?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: You referring to there. What
23 has happened to that property.
24 DR GRIEVE: We landed up, when we were
25 under pressure, putting a tenant into that property through
Page 358
1 an estate agent and it was rented out.
2 ADV NEL: And who owns that property?
3 Who is the registered owner of it?
4 DR GRIEVE: Myself, but in terms of, I’m
5 assuming it’s now the liquidator. I don’t know.
6 [10:34] ADV NEL: Well I mean, you were
7 sequestrated weren’t you?
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: So who is the trustee? Do you
10 know the trustee?
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes, Alphea Car Trust and
12 that would be Dewald. I mean the deed search will probably
13 still reflect my name, but it’s in his hands now.
14 ADV NEL: And where does the rental go
15 for the monthly rental?
16 DR GRIEVE: I had that been paid into my
17 Standard Bank private account at the time of concluding
18 that, and obviously it’s up to Dewald to manage it further.
19 ADV NEL: Does he have sole access to
20 your Standard Bank account?
21 DR GRIEVE: I don’t have access to my
22 Standard Bank account.
23 ADV NEL: Okay.
24 DR GRIEVE: He must have sole access. I
25 don’t even know if it’s being paid there or if it’s being

Page 359
1 paid into his trust or whatever account of his, I don’t
2 know.
3 ADV NEL: Okay.
4 DR GRIEVE: You will have to ask him that
5 question.
6 ADV NEL: Second paragraph. “I have a
7 buyer for my hotel and the equity should be released is
8 about 200 000 by seven shares, 1.4 million.” Now we know
9 that you are not the owner of the hotel, you told us
10 earlier.
11 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
12 ADV NEL: Two shareholders, Nanini and DS
13 Grieve Incorporated. And this R1.4 million, is that value
14 of the shares?
15 DR GRIEVE: I'm going to just correct you
16 there slightly. The term share I think is not a good term,
17 it’s a rental pool, the hotel had been divided into
18 sectional title units. I owned five in Nanini – sectional
19 title units, which sort of loosely around the boardroom
20 represented five shares. They were going to formalise that
21 at some stage, but I don’t know if that ever transpired,
22 and then the two that were incorporated were equivalent to
23 two shares, but it’s sectional title units, so they
24 literally divided it up into little rooms and each person
25 bought a room. So I had seven rooms in the hotel.
Page 360
1 ADV NEL: And the value of each room is
2 R200 000?
3 DR GRIEVE: No. The value of each room
4 is difficult to put a value unless you sell it, and at that
5 stage there was an offer on the table from some group which
6 I can't recall, but if you speak to the board of trustees
7 you can find out there's been some various offers, but none
8 of them have gone through. But there was a concrete one
9 that was backed with deadlines and some big paperwork and
10 there were a string of attorneys working on it. And the
11 offer there if I remember correctly was around about 400
12 per room, or 450, somewhere around, it was just over 400
13 but in that ballpark. And the 200 per unit here would then
14 be the difference between the bonds that I had on those
15 units and the actual purchase price from the buyer. And
16 that’s where that 200 –
17 ADV NEL: So what you’ve calculated there
18 is after repaying the bonds there would be 1.4 million?
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 ADV NEL: Were those sales ever realised?
21 DR GRIEVE: No.
22 ADV NEL: The third one. You’ve got two
23 plots with ABSA, the value of about R6 million with a bond
24 of about R3.8 million outstanding, equity 2.2 million.
25 Were those plots ever sold?
Page 361
1 DR GRIEVE: No.
2 ADV NEL: Can you turn to page 565
3 please.
4 DR GRIEVE: Can I just ask quickly. The
5 reference to these plots having ever been sold, are we
6 talking about everything before my sequestration?
7 ADV NEL: Yes.
8 DR GRIEVE: I don’t know what's happened
9 since then.
10 ADV NEL: Sure. If you look at page 565,
11 that’s an email from you to Presidium. Do you agree with
12 that?
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
14 ADV NEL: You say, “I trust you are
15 keeping well, here is the copy of my plot’s valuation and
16 hope to give you some more info in the near future about my
17 replacement funding. I was hoping to see my funder
18 tomorrow, but he is ill and will only see me next week some
19 time.” Who’s that funder?
20 DR GRIEVE: At that stage I was seeing
21 both Advocate Derrick de Villiers and Henk on a regular
22 basis with trying to find out what's happening, trying to
23 support them, trying to get these things to happen. I
24 cannot possibly tell you which one of the two, it would
25 have been one of the two.
Page 362
1 ADV NEL: Yes. If you go to page 587.
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: Email from you to Presidium.
4 First paragraph you say, “I believe that Paul has agreed to
5 buy my portion of my debt as you referred to. My brother
6 Bill is also on his way back to New Zealand where he will
7 arrange the interim payment of the R1 million. I believe
8 it should be before the 10th and keep as all happy.” At
9 that time you were aware that William was going to advance
10 R4,4 million to you, not so?
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 ADV NEL: So why do you tell Presidium
13 only about R1 million?
14 DR GRIEVE: The reason why we are only
15 giving them R1 million is that obviously we were going to
16 put a deposit on the house which I say Bill knew about
17 alright. And then the second thing there was that, the
18 remainder would be used to keep me afloat until Creda’s
19 money came in.
20 ADV NEL: Yes. Let's accept for the
21 moment that William knew that you were going to put money
22 down as a deposit on property, that knowledge of his was
23 based on your representation to him that Bridging Solutions
24 was a viable thriving entity, not so?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.

Page 363
1 ADV NEL: Yes. Can you please turn to
2 page 595. It’s another email from you to Presidium. First
3 paragraph, “Here is the R1 million and I believe Paul has
4 reduced my book from his purchase of debt by another 13
5 million 700 thousand.” That reference to the R1 million,
6 that’s the R1 million you received from William – 1 million
7 of the 4,4 million you received?
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: And you used that R1 million to
10 pay Presidium. Is that right?
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, what we’ve
13 established is that, payments were made to Presidium from
14 monies received from William which were intended for
15 Bridging Solutions. Do you accept that?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: And the total amount appears to
18 be 2 900 000 of Williams funds that were used to pay
19 Presidium directly. Do you accept that?
20 DR GRIEVE: I accept that.
21 ADV NEL: There was a payment to an
22 entity called Gateway, approximately R48 000. Do you
23 recall that?
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 ADV NEL: Who is Gateway, what entity is
Page 364
1 that?
2 DR GRIEVE: Gateway, the short answer was
3 my landlord.
4 ADV NEL: In respect of which property?
5 Is it a commercial property?
6 DR GRIEVE: 5 Laag Nook, Zwartkop, that’s
7 where my offices were.
8 ADV NEL: And was that a monthly rental
9 or?
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes, it was a monthly rental.
11 ADV NEL: For one month only?
12 DR GRIEVE: I'm not sure if that was for
13 one month if I was in arrears, and maybe it was a two month
14 payment, that I can't recall, we’d have to go and have a
15 look, I can't remember what the figures were. But if you
16 just have a look at previous months I'm sure we will be
17 able to pick up other payments to Gateway, and then you’ll
18 be able to see -
19 ADV NEL: Do you not know what the
20 monthly rental was?
21 DR GRIEVE: I can't recall.
22 ADV NEL: Okay. Madam Commissioner, may
23 I just have one second?
24 COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course.
25 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, can you recall the
Page 365
1 amount of monthly rental paid for the Cornwall Hill
2 property by the tenant?
3 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe, I can vaguely remember
4 it being R20 000 to R25 000 a month. Why I'm giving you a
5 range like that, I can't remember if it was 25 and the
6 commission from the agent was taken off and I was getting
7 the remainder or not, because I think I only received one
8 or two months of those before the sequestration took place.
9 It was somewhere in the range of 20 or 25. I just know the
10 contract if I remember correctly was for 25 when she took
11 commission.
12 ADV NEL: And this is a property valued
13 by you at R8.5 million? Correct?
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 ADV NEL: And this tenant, any relation
16 or friend of yours?
17 DR GRIEVE: Heaven forbid, no.
18 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, as Madam
19 Commissioner explained to you, you will get an opportunity.
20 I'd like to give you an opportunity to tell this inquiry
21 what happened to this vast amount of funds.
22 DR GRIEVE: The vast amount of funds –
23 the short story there I already gave you a version of that
24 just now, and that is exactly what happened. We did our
25 best to manage these businesses and the debts obviously
Page 366
1 started to grow and we had a double problem in the sense
2 that the bridging business in the country saw a very tough
3 time, because the property market had imploded to a degree,
4 which meant we had a lot of deals going South and at the
5 same time I had in the construction business the stock that
6 we needed to move that we couldn’t move for quite a period
7 of time, and we had to pay those expenses. We also had to
8 pay the people that were building those houses as well. So
9 our overheads just grew and grew, and suddenly when things
10 started to go tight, when you start running behind those
11 things escalate and they escalate fast and they just
12 escalated much faster than what we ever could have
13 expected.
14 So basically what happened is, in the group the
15 economy hit us, we mismanaged some of it and we had a large
16 number of deals go south on us, and between that and the
17 continued payments that we had to pay just hurt us. It’s a
18 question of you lose a deal in the bridging space, and you
19 lose capital and the interest you earn, but you're still
20 actually liable to pay the – like Presidium or one of the
21 other credit investors a return, so you’ve got to keep up
22 to those payments, and in the previous years we didn’t have
23 any bad deals, and suddenly in one year we just ended up
24 with a truckload.
25 ADV NEL: Okay. Madam Commissioner, if

Page 367
1 we can – I'm sure if this is –
2 COMMISSIONER: Yes, we can take the tea
3 adjournment.
4 ADV NEL: Thank you very much.
5 COMMISSIONER: We stand down, thank you.
6 [INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES]
7 [10:57] COMMISSIONER: I understand that Mr Laher
8 is going to take us through the next session. I just want
9 to confirm, Dr Grieve, that you are still bound by your
10 oath of this morning.
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. And that
13 you’re still comfortable talking to us without your legal
14 representative here?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
17 Let’s proceed.
18 MR LAHER: Thank you, Madam Commissioner.
19 Dr Grieve, I’ve sat through the last day and quarter when
20 you were examined by my learned friend, Advocate Nel, I
21 just want to try and assess the evidence as I’ve heard it
22 and understood it. You’ve told the commissioner that the
23 insolvent company started running into financial difficulty
24 when it experienced a liquidity crisis which was caused by
25 a series of defaulting deals in the first quarter of 2009,
Page 368
1 is that correct?
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 MR LAHER: And when those defaults
4 started racing, as you referred to earlier this morning –
5 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, racing?
6 MR LAHER: Racing onto you.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 MR LAHER: You were unable to service the
9 repayment of interest or, for that matter, make any capital
10 repayments to your largest creditor, being Presidium,
11 correct?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes, yes.
13 MR LAHER: And in the first quarter of
14 2009, you held out a number of reasons for the defaulting
15 deal.
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 MR LAHER: One of them being that it was
18 a slow start to 2009, correct?
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 MR LAHER: The other being a public
21 service strike which engulfed the deeds office and various
22 other reasons.
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 MR LAHER: And during this period, apart
25 from these deals coming through, the only other hope that
Page 369
1 you had to meet your commitments to Presidium, was your
2 negotiations, ongoing as they were, with Creda and other
3 individual investors like Mr Veldkamp and Mr de Lange, the
4 Luxemburg fellow.
5 DR GRIEVE: No, no, he was actually one
6 of the debtors. We referred to him as Mr De Lange, but it
7 was – I think it was a legal entity and I obviously had
8 time to go and think about it last night, the entity, if I
9 can remember, I don’t have records, so it’s from memory,
10 was Colozay Holdings, I think and that you might have seen
11 in the stuff you’ve studied and he was one of my debtors,
12 he owed me money.
13 MR LAHER: But the hope that you held
14 out, and you were relying on, was Creda and Mr Veldkamp.
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes, that is indeed correct.
16 MR LAHER: And you kind of made reference
17 to the fact that during this period, you still held out
18 hope in the business and belief in the business, that this
19 Bridging business could still grow in all of this period
20 with all of these difficulties?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I did. Would you like
22 me to elaborate on that?
23 MR LAHER: Yes, sure.
24 DR GRIEVE: It’s just a question of, yes,
25 there were difficulties on some of the deals and I could
Page 370
1 obviously look to myself and say, well, maybe – not maybe,
2 in that point of time, obviously now I can say definitely,
3 but at that stage, maybe we’ve made one or two bad
4 decisions, we need to scrutinise our deals a bit more, and
5 at that stage I had, daily, people – attorney firms
6 requesting funding, you know, for bridging transactions.
7 So that is why I believed the business would be able to
8 grow, not because of the – what’s the word he used,
9 precarious situation at the end, but simply the demand was
10 still massive and literally, and I’ll say even today, if
11 one could run it properly, if you had a lot of capital,
12 there is still a huge demand for that kind of finance, and
13 they were knocking on my door and I just couldn’t provide.
14 MR LAHER: The fact of the matter is that
15 during this period, the defaulting deals remained as
16 defaulting deals, nothing changed.
17 DR GRIEVE: No.
18 MR LAHER: And your hope was Creda coming
19 to the party?
20 DR GRIEVE: Creda and that some of those
21 deals that were defaulting might – the communication from
22 those debtors was not default, but delay, and so we were
23 still assuming that they would come at some stage.
24 MR LAHER: And Creda participated and you
25 negotiated with them and Presidium, at the same time, were,

Page 371
1 I’m not going to say lenient, but for want of a better
2 word, they were quite indulgent, they allowed you to get
3 through this phase –
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 MR LAHER: They took steps as and when it
6 became necessary, but really only got to the formal legal
7 process towards the middle of 2009 and thereafter with the
8 intervention of their attorneys, Edward Nathan, and your
9 attorney, Mr Erin, is that right?
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 MR LAHER: And against this background
12 and in this context, you concluded three loan agreements
13 with your half brother, Bill.
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 MR LAHER: Now, my purpose is to try and
16 assess and understand how the monies that were paid to you,
17 or advanced to you by Bill, were actually you. So we’re
18 not going into a witch hunt, we just want to understand,
19 because there’s descriptions relating to the utilisation of
20 these funds that we need to try and clarify and get an
21 understanding from you.
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
23 MR LAHER: Now, just before I go into the
24 bank statements and into the first loan, I just want to
25 understand the operation of the bank accounts. There was a
Page 372
1 series of accounts in a series of entities, including your
2 personal name, held at Standard Bank, right?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 MR LAHER: And these were at the
5 Centurion branch of Standard Bank?
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 MR LAHER: There was a series of accounts
8 at Absa Bank, also held, and of particular reference, in
9 your personal name and in the name of the insolvent
10 company?
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 MR LAHER: In other words, you operated
13 two separate accounts in the name of the insolvent company
14 at Standard Bank and Absa Bank –
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 MR LAHER: You operated two separate
17 accounts in your personal name at Standard Bank and Absa
18 Bank and you operated one account in the name of David
19 Grieve Incorporated, a separate legal entity at Standard
20 Bank?
21 DR GRIEVE: Incorrect.
22 MR LAHER: What is the correct position?
23 DR GRIEVE: I had an account for
24 Incorporated at both Standard and Absa.
25 MR LAHER: So you operated two separate
Page 373
1 accounts for each of the three entities, and I include
2 yourself as an entity –
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes, that’s fair enough.
4 MR LAHER: At these two banks?
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 MR LAHER: Now, let’s just go to the
7 first advance that you made, or that was made by Bill to
8 you on the 8th of April 2009.
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 MR LAHER: I’m not going to repeat what
11 we went through yesterday, I take it and if you’re not
12 happy with any questioning based on an assumption of
13 evidence given yesterday, you’ll let me know and I’ll try
14 and clarify it.
15 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
16 MR LAHER: Just as a summary, that
17 advance was for £102 380, and it translated into a credit
18 in South African Rands of R1 333 250. I want you to go to
19 file 5 and if you would turn to page 312, please?
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 MR LAHER: Do you see the credit of R1
22 333 250 on the 8th of April?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 MR LAHER: Can you just clarify for the
25 commissioner, the account into which that credit was
Page 374
1 recorded?
2 DR GRIEVE: Incorporated.
3 MR LAHER: David Grieve Incorporated?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes, yes.
5 MR LAHER: Which is not the insolvent
6 company, correct?
7 DR GRIEVE: It is one of the group of
8 insolvent companies, but not Bridging, no.
9 MR LAHER: When I refer to insolvent
10 company, I refer to Bridging.
11 DR GRIEVE: okay.
12 MR LAHER: And am I correct that prior to
13 that amount being credited into that account, the account
14 was in an overdraft situation of just over R500 000?
15 DR GRIEVE: Correct.
16 MR LAHER: And from the evidence
17 yesterday, we established that the account number of David
18 Grieve Incorporated, as specified on page 312, is not the
19 account number that was recorded in the loan agreement that
20 you entered into with Bill?
21 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct, ja.
22 MR LAHER: Now, can I just go through
23 some of the transactions that followed? So if you go down
24 – I’m not going to go through the first transaction of the
25 forex debit of R550, I assume that that is a internal bank

Page 375
1 charge of Standard Bank for the receipt of the foreign
2 funds into the account.
3 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
4 MR LAHER: The first amount or R700 000,
5 transacted on the 9th of April –
6 DR GRIEVE: Hold on, I’m –
7 MR LAHER: At the bottom of that page.
8 DR GRIEVE: Page 212? R700?
9 MR LAHER: Yes. The first amount of
10 R700, transacted on the 9th of April 2009 and recorded as an
11 electronic banking payment to David Grieve 10831(267).
12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
13 MR LAHER: Can you tell the commissioner
14 what that transaction was all about?
15 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I’m going to explain a
16 problem we’re going to have here and I have no idea how
17 we’re going to address this problem, and I don’t mind if it
18 looks poorly on me, or whatever the comments will be that
19 follow that. We, at this stage, had received a new banking
20 system, it’s a funny little thing where you push the
21 button, you get codes, it’s - I can’t remember what it’s
22 called, from Standard Bank and we had started to load
23 beneficiaries and I had – the bookkeeper that I had at that
24 stage, load the beneficiaries, and where we have debtors
25 and creditors that you need to load, she switched them
Page 376
1 around. So all these small payments were payments that
2 were made to suppliers of goods, or people that were
3 helping us to build something, or some guy that came and
4 put in a toilet tap or something like that and they have
5 all got an incorrect description on them and I’m going to
6 really struggle on all these small ones to try and tell you
7 who they went to and I have no idea how I’m going to
8 resolve that for you, other than us getting Paul Marias in
9 here with everything from Incorporated and trying to find
10 one invoice, one invoice, more or less on a date basis.
11 The only thing I can reassure you was that most of these
12 smaller payments were for operating expenses in the
13 Incorporated company.
14 MR LAHER: So – because there are four
15 amounts of R700, on the 9th of April, all transacted
16 individually.
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I’m trying to remember
18 why and for what and I can’t recall what that would have
19 been for and it could have been for four different invoices
20 for the same job on four different houses, where somebody
21 had come to hung doors or do something, I don’t know what,
22 but that would have been – we would have paid each invoice,
23 I think, and that’s why we would have done that.
24 MR LAHER: Can I just understand you,
25 what you’re saying is that some of the transactions that
Page 377
1 followed immediately on the receipt of these funds from
2 your brother, were in respect of operating expenses across
3 the board of the Grieve group?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I’ll concede to that, if
5 that’s what you’re trying to prove, you can ask it and I’ll
6 give it to you straight, yes.
7 MR LAHER: And they all under the blanket
8 description of a David Grieve payment?
9 DR GRIEVE: Unfortunately, yes, it would
10 have started to clean up a little bit later, as soon as we
11 realised that this had happened, we started to fix them,
12 but the problem was it was very difficult the way it was
13 worded there, for the bookkeeper that was loading the – I
14 released the payments, they never released any payments,
15 but I mean you see these things, you see the invoices, you
16 release the payments, the guys get their money and then
17 later – a month later, you see, but the description isn’t
18 what it’s supposed to be, so that’s very embarrassing, but
19 that’s the way it is.
20 MR LAHER: Would it be of any assistance
21 if you look at – turn to page 313 and the second
22 transaction on the same day, 9th of April, R700, would it be
23 of any assistance in you getting to the root of the
24 beneficiary, by having regard to the description at the
25 end?
Page 378
1 DR GRIEVE: Ah, yes.
2 MR LAHER: - 120/1.
3 DR GRIEVE: You’ve just answered it,
4 thank you, that was quite sharp. Yes, now I can actually
5 tell you what they all are, because they would all be – and
6 even the description at 2674, those are municipal fees or
7 levies, one of the two to a body corporate. That is, yes,
8 now, before we go on –
9 MR LAHER: Sorry to interrupt you, but
10 these levies, which is a term what you’d use, it’s in
11 respect of a body corporate or a sectional title complex or
12 municipal fees, whatever the case may be, are in respect of
13 properties owned by which entity?
14 DR GRIEVE: That would be Incorporated
15 and probably myself as well, as a private individual.
16 MR LAHER: And if I remember correctly,
17 you owned various units in your private capacity in the
18 complex. I can’t recall the name, can you?
19 DR GRIEVE: I’m not quite sure which ones
20 you’re referring to now, there was Aldo Lakes –
21 MR LAHER: Yes, Aldo Lakes –
22 DR GRIEVE: I think that’s the one that
23 you might be - if I’m looking at what you’re looking at
24 here.
25 MR LAHER: And in David Grieve Inc it’s

Page 379
1 the ones related to Wilderness Protea Hotel?
2 DR GRIEVE: There were two and then there
3 was a whole load of units in Patchfield Close as well.
4 MR LAHER: If you stay at page 313, the
5 fourth transaction, on the same day, the 9th of April, R13
6 171, with the same the description except that it has an
7 account number at the end. That seems to me to be either a
8 credit card account number, or a bank account number.
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja, no, it will be a bank
10 account number. I’m once again going to have to guess, but
11 the guess will still hopefully satisfy your reasoning.
12 It’s going to be either for a TLB or a truck that we
13 actually had in Incorporated. I’m not a hundred percent
14 sure, but I’m ninety percent sure, we’d just have to go and
15 check which one of those it would be, against that account
16 number, but it’s one of the two.
17 COMMISSIONER: Is it under finance – was
18 it on a lease or a –
19 DR GRIEVE: Lease or a finance, I’m not
20 sure if it was a lease or a HP, I can’t recall what it was,
21 I am sorry.
22 COMMISSIONER: Okay.
23 DR GRIEVE: One of the two, but with
24 Standard Bank.
25 MR LAHER: Would it be the same in
Page 380
1 respect of the next three transactions?
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes, indeed. Can I interject
3 very quickly here? I would like to correct something that
4 I just said earlier, in where I said we had the debtor-
5 creditor swop, we did have it, but having a look at these
6 now, when I had a quick glance at this, I thought this
7 exactly what we’re going to see, but it’s actually not
8 that. It’s got my name connected to it, simply because
9 these erf belasting, or what do you call it?
10 COMMISSIONER: Rates and taxes.
11 DR GRIEVE: The rates and taxes stuff,
12 obviously were under my name or David Grieve Incorporated,
13 so the reference there was generally that with a stand
14 number and I actually see it is described correctly here,
15 but if we go through the whole year, you’ll see for two or
16 three months, we somewhere had a bit of a muddle up with
17 that, so if we do come across this, apologies.
18 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you.
19 MR LAHER: Okay, and what follows are
20 seven transactions of R700 each on the same day of the 9th
21 of April and that would also be in respect of body
22 corporate levies of municipal fees?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 MR LAHER: We then have the transfer of
25 R1 200 000 on the 9th of April, as a transfer from the bank
Page 381
1 account of David Grieve Incorporated to private, could you
2 explain what that is?
3 DR GRIEVE: Exactly that.
4 MR LAHER: This is a transfer from a
5 David Grieve Incorporated account into your personal –
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 MR LAHER: And this is the transfer which
8 then gave rise to a further transfer from your personal
9 account of R900 000 to the bank account of Bridging
10 Solutions, correct?
11 DR GRIEVE: That’s what we went through
12 yesterday, if it’s the right dates, yes, correct.
13 MR LAHER: And a payment of R900 000 from
14 Bridging Solutions to Presidium?
15 DR GRIEVE: Correct, yes.
16 MR LAHER: We’ll come to an analysis of
17 the R1 200 000 in a minute. So if we go back to page 312,
18 the overdraft balance which preceded the receipt of your
19 brother’s money.
20 [11:16] DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 MR LAHER: R537 262,03. Do you see that?
22 DR GRIEVE: 537, yes. Yes.
23 MR LAHER: And can you just turn for me
24 to page 314?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 382
1 MR LAHER: And look at the overdraft
2 balance after the last of these transactions that were put
3 through this account on the 9th of April.
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 MR LAHER: And you will see that the
6 account has gone back into overdraft in an amount of
7 R437 958,03.
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 MR LAHER: A difference of plus/minus
10 R100 000.
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 MR LAHER: Of which you managed, through
13 Bill’s money, to reduce the overdraft facility at Standard
14 Bank.
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 MR LAHER: And if one analyses the
17 payments that were made after the receipt of the money from
18 Bill you will see that the total of the transactions from,
19 that took place on the 9th of April -
20 DR GRIEVE: Mm-hmm.
21 MR LAHER: Amounts to just on R1 260 000.
22 In other words, that should explain more or the less the
23 difference and the reduction in the overdraft facility.
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 MR LAHER: I want you to go to page 315.

Page 383
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 MR LAHER: And at the top there is a
3 transaction, cheque cashed, and I presume that the serial
4 number or the number of the cheque, 100154, dated the 15th
5 of April -
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 MR LAHER: - in the amount of R20 000.
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 MR LAHER: Can you tell the commissioner
10 what that cheque was cashed for?
11 DR GRIEVE: I’m not entirely sure. This
12 was Incorporated, yes, we’re Incorporated. If that was a
13 cash cheque it would have been for the wages of the
14 labourers.
15 MR LAHER: And was a cash cheque drawn
16 like this on a monthly basis for the payment of wages?
17 DR GRIEVE: No. More regularly. I think
18 we paid them fortnightly.
19 MR LAHER: Well, I have been through
20 these bank statements -
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 MR LAHER: - carefully.
23 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
24 MR LAHER: And I, save for the cash
25 cheque of R600 000 -
Page 384
2 MR LAHER: - you made reference to
3 yesterday and this cash cheque of R20 000 and possibly one
4 other cash cheque, I have not seen any other cash cheques
5 in the period between April and November 2009.
6 DR GRIEVE: April to November 2009? Are
7 you referring only to Incorporated?
8 MR LAHER: Yes.
9 DR GRIEVE: I may have written cash
10 cheques from my private account as well. But we paid them
11 fortnightly.
12 MR LAHER: I cannot say that I did this
13 the same for your private account because the transactions
14 were, the focus of the transactions were -
15 DR GRIEVE: I didn’t personally – I
16 didn’t personally pay them so it would be very easy to
17 obtain witness to prove that we did that on a fortnightly
18 basis and it must be there somewhere, whether it be in my
19 private accounts or in incorporated accounts. But –
20 COMMISSIONER: And who would then, sorry
21 to interrupt, who would that person be?
22 DR GRIEVE: That would be Andre Botha.
23 He was, he’s my brother in law and he was a project manager
24 and he used to work with the labourers on the building
25 sites.
Page 385
1 COMMISSIONER: And who -
2 DR GRIEVE: He paid them.
3 COMMISSIONER: Okay, but he would, I take
4 it you would be the only signatory or did he -
5 DR GRIEVE: He had signature rights.
6 COMMISSIONER: Yes?
7 DR GRIEVE: For that purpose, so he would
8 sign those cheques and cash those cheques.
9 COMMISSIONER: And are we talking on, did
10 he have signature, was he a signatory on the Incorporated
11 as well as your private account?
12 DR GRIEVE: No, just on Incorporated, so
13 if he had gone to cash a cheque it must be on one of the
14 two, either the Absa Incorporated or Standard but then,
15 from to time, if the cash flow was tight I would have taken
16 one of the private cheques and I would have given him the
17 R20 000 or the R16 000 or whatever we needed that week for
18 the labour and I would have signed. If it was a private
19 one I would have signed and it given it to him to go and
20 cash.
21 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you.
22 MR LAHER: Just go to the next
23 transaction, on page 315.
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 MR LAHER: Can you explain what that
Page 386
1 transaction is all about?
2 DR GRIEVE: The 415?
3 MR LAHER: Yes.
4 DR GRIEVE: Mm-mm, no I can’t.
5 MR LAHER: The description is followed by
6 a serial number.
7 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to guess here.
8 That serial number also resembles a sort of rates and taxes
9 thing but I’d just like to have a disclaimer. I mean, I
10 would like to see all those rates and taxes in front of me
11 to confirm that but I’m 99% sure that’s another rates and
12 taxes.
13 MR LAHER: And the next transfer of
14 R6 000 made on 15 April, it just has a description of
15 transfer, to transfer.
16 DR GRIEVE: I do not know why that would
17 have happened and that, if it’s transfer to transfer it
18 would have been transferred from that account to one of the
19 other accounts in the group. I’m going to make a wild
20 guess and say, if one goes and looks at Village Stars
21 account, but this is a guess, please accept that, we might
22 find that deposit would have landed up in that account.
23 MR LAHER: So if one sits back and
24 analyses the use of Bill’s first advance to you R900 000
25 was paid to Presidium?

Page 387
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 MR LAHER: The amounts that we’ve been
3 through, from pages 312 to 315 were paid in respect of
4 liabilities of David Grieve Incorporated.
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 MR LAHER: And Village Stars.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 MR LAHER: In respect of the R6 000.
9 DR GRIEVE: If I’m correct, yes.
10 MR LAHER: And we then will find out how
11 the balance of the R1 200 000 that was transferred to your
12 personal account was dealt with? Correct? The R300 000.
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 MR LAHER: So, in other words, none of
15 the first advance of Bill’s money made to Bridging
16 Solutions was used by Bridging Solutions for the purpose it
17 was intended?
18 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to accept that,
19 yes.
20 MR LAHER: There seems to be some
21 reluctance.
22 DR GRIEVE: A little bit of reluctance.
23 What, the fact that we were under pressure is true and
24 we’ve conceded to all of that. I could argue but I don’t
25 want to get into a lengthy debate, I’m happy to accept it.
Page 388
1 I could argue that the fact that we reduced Presidium at
2 that stage could still have been seen as investments in
3 Bridging because, by reducing Presidium’s liability we
4 could increase his investment by just reducing the
5 liability to Presidium because that was a liability on a
6 book that at that stage was still good and healthy. It
7 just didn’t have churn or cash flow at that stage. Does
8 that make sense?
9 MR LAHER: None of that line of yours has
10 made sense over the last days but be that as it may.
11 DR GRIEVE: Okay. But that’s why -
12 MR LAHER: There’s already R900 000 that
13 ended up in Presidium’s pocket.
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes. Ja.
15 MR LAHER: And R900 000 would have made a
16 world of difference between the survival of Bridging
17 Solutions and the collapse of Bridging Solutions. Is that
18 what you’re implying?
19 DR GRIEVE: I -
20 MR LAHER: Through the use of Bill’s
21 funds?
22 DR GRIEVE: In retrospect, no. Then,
23 yes.
24 MR LAHER: Let’s turn to the transfer of
25 R1 200 000 made from this account. I want you to go to
Page 389
1 file number, sorry, stay at file number – you need to go to
2 file number 6 and if you could turn to page 264 for me,
3 please.
4 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
5 MR LAHER: You will see around the middle
6 of the page, 264 -
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 MR LAHER: The credit of R1 200 000
9 coming from the account of David Grieve Inc. on the 9th of
10 April.
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 MR LAHER: Now, on the very same day -
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 MR LAHER: - while these funds were
15 available in David Grieve Inc. you transfer them into your
16 personal account.
17 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
18 MR LAHER: And then pay an amount of
19 R72 000 to yourself on the 9th of April.
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 MR LAHER: Can you explain -
22 DR GRIEVE: I can’t explain that and I
23 can’t recall where that would have gone.
24 MR LAHER: David, I’m no expert and I
25 leave many of these things to my wife to do and hence the
Page 390
1 grey hair but surely these are transactions, if I
2 understand the operations of an internet bank account -
4 MR LAHER: You log on -
5 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
6 MR LAHER: You have a user name -
7 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
8 MR LAHER: - you have a password -
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
10 MR LAHER: - you then transact.
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 MR LAHER: On the 9th of April 2009 you
13 paid over an amount of R72 000 -
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 MR LAHER: Not an insignificant amount of
16 R720.
17 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
18 MR LAHER: And you paid it out under the
19 guise or a description -
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 MR LAHER: - as a payment to yourself.
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes. And I think these are
23 still one of these that might be, as I explained earlier,
24 I’m not sure if this was paid to myself or whether this was
25 actually paid to a third party and the descriptions are the

Page 391
1 wrong way around. I really, as much as I want to tell you
2 where that money went, we’d have to go and look at all
3 those accounts. I can’t tell you for sure where I sent
4 that money, no.
5 COMMISSIONER: But I think we’ve sorted
6 out that in September the muddle between the creditors and
7 the debtors had been sorted because we saw that on
8 Incorporated.
9 DR GRIEVE: We tried to get it sorted
10 yes, and even if we can go and have a look at that system
11 right now and one – get a call-up on that, there’s still
12 going to be some that we didn’t correct because we didn’t
13 get to correcting all of them either, so we started
14 improving the situation, yes, we fixed up most of them but
15 I mean to pay from David to David doesn’t make sense.
16 COMMISSIONER: Unless you had a credit
17 card. Do you have a credit card in your name?
18 DR GRIEVE: You know, that could be
19 possible. This could be a payment to a credit card. I had
20 a credit card with them and a Diners Club card and it could
21 actually be that, yes, and I’ll concede to that. It could
22 be paid to myself, absolutely. I’m not denying that. I
23 just can’t say for sure where I would have sent that, so –
24 MR LAHER: Well, let me help you.
25 DR GRIEVE: Let’s say it’s a credit card,
Page 392
1 ja.
2 MR LAHER: To help you -
3 DR GRIEVE: But then I might be lying, I
4 don’t know.
5 MR LAHER: You haven’t found the credit
6 in your Absa account of R72 000.
7 DR GRIEVE: Alright.
8 MR LAHER: And you’re welcome to go and
9 to your Absa account in file 4.
10 DR GRIEVE: Ja?
11 MR LAHER: And look for a credit on the
12 9th or the 10th of April of R72 000.
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja. No, I don’t think it
14 would have been, I don’t think it would have been there,
15 no, because that would have reflected something.
16 MR LAHER: So are you telling us that
17 this could have possibly been the settlement of a personal
18 debt?
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 MR LAHER: Whether it’s in the form of a
21 -
22 DR GRIEVE: It’s very, very possible,
23 yes.
24 MR LAHER: Or a Diners Club?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 393
1 MR LAHER: Do you have any other
2 accounts?
3 DR GRIEVE: I have -
4 MR LAHER: Other than these two personal
5 bank accounts?
6 DR GRIEVE: I had an account with RMB
7 Bank, Rand Merchant Bank, private account and I had an
8 account with Investec Bank.
9 COMMISSIONER: In your personal name?
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 COMMISSIONER: In both instances?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER: And credit cards, or in -
14 DR GRIEVE: Credit card I had with,
15 sorry, the Investec one is I think by default a credit card
16 account, I think, ja.
17 COMMISSIONER: Oh, I see, okay.
18 DR GRIEVE: And then RMB I had a cheque
19 account and a credit card account and a bond. And the
20 cheque account didn’t have any facilities but the credit
21 card did but I don’t think this would have been to RMB. I
22 think this is probably, as the commissioner said, to one of
23 those cards but I’m guessing but it could be indeed.
24 MR LAHER: So it’s a personal debt?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 394
1 MR LAHER: Whether in the form of a
2 credit card or whether in the form of a third party
3 creditor. It’s a personal debt.
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 MR LAHER: That’s plain.
6 DR GRIEVE: And if we can call it that,
7 yes, and then it comes off -
8 MR LAHER: Stay at page 264. There’s a
9 small amount of R6 46 -
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 MR LAHER: With a similar type of
12 description, save and except that it’s got an account
13 number 108 as a reference.
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 MR LAHER: What would that be for?
16 DR GRIEVE: That’s – I can’t tell you
17 what that account number is for but it’s probably going to
18 be another rates and taxes or levy-type payment.
19 MR LAHER: Let’s go to the last
20 transaction on page 264.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 MR LAHER: R20 000 transferred out of
23 your personal account on the 9th of April to David Griel,
24 G-R-I-E-L, Swart. Who is Swart?
25 DR GRIEVE: This is exactly one of those

Page 395
1 that the description’s a bit the wrong way around but Swart
2 is one of the creditors that I was paying a return to, just
3 like the three creditors we had here yesterday from
4 Bridging.
5 MR LAHER: Is Swart any relation of -
6 DR GRIEVE: No.
7 MR LAHER: - you or your wife?
8 DR GRIEVE: No, not at all.
9 MR LAHER: Would you turn to page 265,
10 please, the first transaction on that page.
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 MR LAHER: 9th of April, electronic
13 transfer of R30 000 to David Gried, G-R-I-E-D, S Gried.
14 DR GRIEVE: That’s another -
15 MR LAHER: Can you give me clarity on
16 that transaction?
17 DR GRIEVE: That, at that stage that is
18 my wife and she had an amount that she had invested in
19 Bridging and I was servicing her interest or return.
20 MR LAHER: But by this time -
21 DR GRIEVE: She was also a creditor of
22 Bridging Solutions, ja.
23 MR LAHER: But by this time you had
24 already been in default with the servicing, to use your
25 words, of interest to Presidium.
Page 396
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 MR LAHER: Is that not correct?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 MR LAHER: You had also been in default -
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 MR LAHER: - with interest repayments or
7 servicing with other investors.
8 DR GRIEVE: At that stage, when is this?
9 April? No.
10 MR LAHER: So you were only in default
11 with Presidium?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 MR LAHER: And did you tell Bill that his
14 investment was going to be used, amongst others, to repay
15 your wife, her investment?
16 DR GRIEVE: No.
17 MR LAHER: So why did you choose your
18 wife instead of Presidium, because you told us over the
19 last day you made Bill aware of the financial difficulty
20 and the distress situation.
21 DR GRIEVE: I did not choose -
22 MR LAHER: Sorry, can I just finish?
23 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
24 MR LAHER: You made Bill aware of the
25 financial position and pressure being put upon you by
Page 397
1 Presidium or was Sanet putting similar or other pressure on
2 you as well?
3 DR GRIEVE: No.
4 MR LAHER: So you elect to utilise some
5 of Bill’s monies to repay Sanet?
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 MR LAHER: In circumstances where, by
8 April, Presidium is threatening liquidation of Bridging
9 Solutions, correct?
10 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
11 MR LAHER: Sequestration of your personal
12 estate, correct?
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
14 MR LAHER: Where – you said all the books
15 and records of Bridging Solutions are in the possession of
16 Paul Marais?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 MR LAHER: Can we just go back a little
19 to Sanet’s investment?
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 MR LAHER: How much did she invest in
22 Bridging Solutions?
23 DR GRIEVE: I cannot recall the exact
24 amount. It was a smaller amount –
25 COMMISSIONER: More or less.
Page 398
1 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe.
2 COMMISSIONER: Are we talking -
3 MR LAHER: One hundred?
4 COMMISSIONER: - 50, 100?
5 DR GRIEVE: No, 50 or less.
6 COMMISSIONER: 50 or less and she’s
7 getting a return of 30?
8 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I think that was a
9 repayment of capital and interest there.
10 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Is Sanet in a
11 position to pay us that back?
12 DR GRIEVE: No.
13 COMMISSIONER: Oh?
14 DR GRIEVE: No.
15 COMMISSIONER: Is she also sequestrated?
16 DR GRIEVE: No, but I’ll explain why in a
17 minute if I may.
18 COMMISSIONER: Okay. You may.
19 MR LAHER: Can you tell her?
20 DR GRIEVE: Okay, sure. Yes, it might be
21 true and if you look a little bit further you will see I
22 also paid the other investors on the same page and the
23 following page. So it wasn’t that I was trying to benefit
24 her above somebody else but at that stage she wanted to
25 settle an overdraft or something that she had made to

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 2 - 2 November 2010

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 2 - 2 November 2010

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Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 2 - 2 November 2010