Beyond the Choir: Healthy Conversations about Sustainability

©2015 Jason Jay and Gabriel Grant
Beyond the Choir
Pitfalls and pathways in conversations
about sustainability
Authentic
Sustainability

Introductions
• Jason Jay, Senior Lecturer and Director of the
Sustainability Initiative, MIT Sloan School of
Management
• Gabriel Grant, M.S., M. Ph., Doctoral
Candidate, Yale Center for Industrial Ecology;
Cofounder, Byron Fellowship Educational
Foundation

Sustainability is the possibility
of human and other life flourishing on earth
forever
John Ehrenfeld

Unhealthy Tensions (Pitfalls)

What is the background conversation
about sustainability?

The background conversation
Values outside
the choir
Values inside
the choir
Comfort
Power
Speed
Quality
Low-cost
Performance
ROI
Healthy
Energy-efficient
Non-toxic
Biodegradable
Renewable
Fair Trade
Responsibly made
Organic

What do conversations look like
when we operate inside this
mental model?

Your ValuesMy Values
“Compromise”

In the midst of the tension, we can get a little weird.

Polarization

• I act as if I don’t care about the other value.
But I would like to have performance, quality, etc.
• I act as if you don’t care about my values.
In fact you probably do; you just don’t want to have to
give up ground.
• I act as if my values don’t include compassion and
caring for another person’s perspective.
But that is how I say I want to operate.
How this gets inauthentic

Personal flourishing, planetary
flourishing, and many things in-between

Undergraduate student reflection about conversation with father
“When initially given this assignment prompt, I planned to have a conversation with
my roommate about recycling. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized
that it would be an easy cop out…It would not be as easy to converse with my father
about how his business might not be very sustainable when it comes to paper
consumption and storage processes.
The highlight of my conversation occurred when he recognized and acknowledged
that even though scanning might not work for his firm, dealing with paper usage and
files, after the cases are over, is a major dilemma for his firm and he needs to do
something about it. He asked me what some of my opinions were. Rather than
focusing on positions (me vs. him), the conversation started to shift more towards
how we could work together to brainstorm ways to satisfy his business needs. I got a
really good feeling from this, as I could feel that we were on the same page and he
gave my opinions serious consideration.”
Healthy Tensions (Pathways)

Healthy Tensions (Pathways)
Question: Imagine if Patagonia was successful at achieving its most
ambitious goals, what would that look like?
It would be a one billion dollar company that doesn't sell anything.
That's really what I think about the goals that we have set for
ourselves. That's kind of it. Really honestly in a super powerful and
cool way we are thinking about that. Obviously, we have to sell
something, and that's what we're doing, but like how do we do that in
the most not only environmental way, but building the best product
and just not selling that much of it. How can we do that? How do we
stay super core to our customer. It's this interesting balance that
everybody's trying to dissect, like can you do it, can you not sell out to
the masses, stay core to who we have been and who we want to be
and continue to grow.
Patagonia Employee

The background conversation
Performance-
focused
Impact-
focused
Comfort
Power
Speed
Quality
Low-cost
Performance
ROI
Healthy
Energy-efficient
Non-toxic
Biodegradable
Renewable
Fair Trade
Responsibly made
Organic

An alternative mental model
Impact
Performance
Not Important Important
Important
Impact-focused
Performance-
focused

Impact
Performance
Impact-focused
Performance-
focused
“Compromise”
Not Important Important
Important

Impact
Performance
Low High
High
Impact-focused
Performance-
focused
Innovation
Flourishing

Core Intention
Build your capacity to generate flourishing and
innovation on the way to sustainability

How we get there
– Illuminate pitfalls of sustainability, conversations
characterized by inauthenticity, breakdown,
conflict, and being stuck
– Practice a methodology for uncovering pathways,
transforming stuckness toward flourishing and
innovation
– Understand the paradoxes of sustainability that
create predictable pitfalls and our role as
sustainability champions in helping our
organizations navigate them

Paired exercise
Share a specific, recent conversation, where you hoped to enroll
someone in a sustainability effort or idea, that didn’t go the way
you wanted it to. [OR, share a conversation you are avoiding
because you don’t like the way you imagine it will go.]
– Who was/would it be with?
– (How) did you prepare yourself?
– What was the time and place?
– What exactly did you say? What did they say? [or, in your head, how do
you play out that it would go?]
– Before and during the conversation, how would you describe your stance,
how you felt, your way of being? [if you’re avoiding the conversation,
what’s that like for you? How do you feel? What’s your way of being?]
– What happened or didn’t happen after the conversation? [or, what do you
imagine happening?]

What’s a Pitfall
A pitfall is a recurring conversation (or set
of conversations) that correlates with the
experience of being stuck

Where am I experiencing being stuck?
Inspired by: Kegan & Lahey “Immunity to Change”; Jensen & Erhard “Being a Leader”
Stuck!
1. What conversation didn’t go
the way I wanted? Exactly what
was said, When, Where, and
with Whom? Or What
conversation am I avoiding?
2. What am I hoping to
accomplish? What is
the consequence or
cost of being stuck?

This is not the talk you were
expecting

Our default inquiry is a Have->Do inquiry

But, what if we get stuck?

…or we want to produce dramatically
different results?

This is a different inquiry
Inspired by Otto Scharmer, Theory U

Results in
the world
Conversation
with others
Conversation
with yourself
This is a Be->Do->Have inquiry
Be Do Have

“Hidden Conversations” and “Visible Conversations”
(that didn’t go the way we wanted)

“Hidden Conversations” and “Conversations that never took place”

What’s my way of being?
Stuck!
2. What is the
consequence or
cost of being
stuck? What’s
at stake?
Pathway
1. Where am I experiencing
being stuck? What
conversation didn’t go the way
I wanted? Exactly what was
said, When, Where, and with
Whom? Or What conversation
am I avoiding?
Being
3. What are you thinking or
feeling but not saying? What
is your way of being (your
attitude or stance)?

The cultural context
1. Tree-hugger
2. Vegetarian
3. Hippie
4. Liberal
5. Unhygienic
6. Militant
7. Eccentric
8. Activist
9. Caring
10. Protester
11. Overreactive
12. Unfashionable
13. Self-righteous
14. Educated
15. Drug user
16. Hairy
17. Determined
18. Stupid
19. Intelligent
20. Zealous
21. Nontraditional
22. Outdoorsy
23. Forceful
24. Animal lover
25. Intolerant
26. Helpful
27. Democrat
28. Annoying
29. Crazy
30. Irrational
Perceived traits of a "typical environmentalist.“

The cultural context
Perceived traits of a "typical feminist.“
1. Man hating
2. Lesbian
3. Unhygienic
4. Angry
5. Behaves like a
man
6. Unattractive
7. Liberal
8. Ambitious
9. Loud
10.Activist
11.Mean
12.Spinster
13.Independent
14.Forceful
15.Assertive
16.Whiny
17.Abrasive
18.Protester
19.Competent
20.Dresses like a man
21.Self-righteous
22.Bitter
23.Overreactive
24.Educated
25.Strong-willed
26.Strong
27.Intolerant
28.Irrational
29.Annoying
30.Bad dresser

Pitfall - Holier than thou
Example Conversations:

Pitfall – Others should

Pitfall – Lone Wolf

Pitfall – I know what sustainability is

Pitfalls of sustainability

What’s the Bait?
Being
Stuck
Bait

Pitfall - Holier than thou
Being Stuck: Lost ability to engage people beyond “the choir”,
Constructing perceptual barriers separating “us” and “them”,
Lost ability to empower others, diminished leadership capacity
and flourishing in immediate relationships
Bait: Control or domination, Making others wrong, Feeling right,
righteous, smart, superior, and certain that “I know the answer”
in an uncertain world.

Pitfall – Others should
Being Stuck: Surrendered power and responsibility to make a
difference
Bait: Getting off easy: Holding a vision for how the world
“should” be without taking ownership or responsibility for
creating or realizing that vision

Being Stuck: Isolation, Inability to inspire others or effect change
Bait: Enjoying my distinctive identity (or brand), Justified
personal importance or significance
Pitfall – Lone Wolf

Being Stuck: Silo construction, fragmentation, or diminished
support for interdisciplinary or collaborative work. Paralysis and
inaction. Limited incremental personal growth, no potential for
transformative or deep learning. Inability to engage, inspire, or
share your values with others.
Bait: Justified personal importance or significance, Being right,
making others wrong, Being certain in an uncertain world
Pitfall – I know what sustainability is

Paired exercise
Being
Bait
Stuck!
3. What are you
thinking or feeling
but not saying?
What is your way of
being (your
2. What is the
consequence or
cost of being
stuck? What’s
at stake?
Pathway
4. What is the bait or
payoff for your way of
being? (e.g. right,
righteous, certain, safe)
1. Where am I experiencing
being stuck? What
conversation didn’t go the way
I wanted? Exactly what was
said, When, Where, and with
Whom? Or What conversation
am I avoiding?

Pitfalls Bait
Holier than thou To experience being right, righteous, or certain
The experience of control or domination
Others should… Getting off easy
Pretending to contribute by judging and criticizing
Holding a vision for how the world “should” be without
taking ownership or responsibility for creating or
realizing that vision
Identifying a clear enemy or some one to blame
Lone Wolf Enjoying my distinctive identity
Justified personal importance or significance
I know what sustainability is Being certain in an uncertain world
Being smart, superior
Avoiding vulnerability, challenging tensions, complexity
Simplifying the problem

Stretch Break

A pitfall isn’t bad or wrong
It’s just something you get stuck in…

What is the future you really want?
What way of being is consistent with the
future you really want?
Inspired by Otto Scharmer, Theory U

Generating Pathways
Being
Bait
Stuck!
3. What are you
thinking or feeling
but not saying?
What is your way of
being (your
2. What is the
consequence or
cost of being
stuck? What’s
at stake?
4. What is the bait or
payoff for your way of
being? (e.g. right,
righteous, certain, safe)
1. Where am I
experiencing being stuck?
What conversation didn’t
go the way I wanted? Or
What conversation am I
avoiding?
Pathway
6. What new
way of being
would you like
to create?
5. What is the
future you
would really like
to create?

What future do you really want?
What we don’t want What we settle For What we really want
Self-doubt / Meaninglessness Fancy Car Autonomy / Mastery / Purpose
Loneliness Status Relatedness / Connectedness / Love
Illness Drugs / Treatment Serenity / Wellness
Catastrophe Self-Survival Prosperity for All
Poverty GDP Growth Wellbeing
Loss Profit Contribution
Unsustainability Sustainability Flourishing or Generative Systems

Making commitments
Imagine a new conversation with the other person, where you have previously been stuck. Fill in the
blanks with your pitfall diagnosis, and imagine saying this out loud to them.
“In relation to _________________ (prior conversation or avoided conversation)
my way of being has been _________________ (ways of being).
While I’ve been saying I want ________________________ (goals for a better
future), really I was also going for _________________________ (Bait).
I recognize some unfortunate consequences of this approach, which include
_______________________ (consequences of being Stuck).
I am sorry, and I would like to take a new approach.
In the future you can count on me to be _________________.
What I really want is ________________”

Making commitments
Imagine a new conversation with the other person, where you have previously been stuck. Fill in the
blanks with your pitfall diagnosis, and imagine saying this out loud to them.
“In relation to ___number 5 in the recycling______ (prior conversation or avoided conversation)
my way of being has been ___a condescending, know-it-all, jerk_______ (ways of being).
While I’ve been saying I want ____the right thing in the right bin_______ (goals for a better
future), really I was also going for ___dominating the conversation, being right, and making you
wrong___ (Bait).
I recognize some unfortunate consequences of this approach, which include ______diminishing the
quality of your/our relationship/marriage/lives _______ (consequences of being Stuck).
I am sorry, and I would like to take a new approach.
In the future you can count on me to be _____loving____________.
What I really want is ____a profound partnership where we’re exploring how we can best contribute to
the world together________”

Making commitments
• With whom is there a specific conversation or
relationship that you want to transform?
– What do you really want?
– What is your old way of being in that conversation, and
what is a new way of being that is available to you out of
this work?
• When (like, exactly when) will you have a new
conversation?
– "I had gotten stuck with a VP of my company, as I
repeatedly proposed a change of course for a major
project. In the workshop, I saw that I had been arrogant
and overbearing in these conversations, and decided to try
out something new. Literally the next day, a bargain was
struck.” - Brent Segal, R&D executive, Lockheed Martin

Schedule Partner Check-in
• Pick a place and time to follow-up with your
partner to debrief how your new conversation
went

Inquiry Level 2
• What do pitfalls have in common?
• Why do pitfalls occur?
• How can we transform ourselves, our
organizations, and marketplaces?

WholePart
Paradoxes that underlie pitfalls of
sustainability

All LifeHuman Life
Paradoxes (persistent tensions) that
underlie pitfalls of sustainability

Part-whole paradoxes that underlie
pitfalls of sustainability
Part Whole Either-Or Pitfall 1 Either-Or Pitfall 2
(flipside of 1)
Both-And Pathway
Human life All life Anthropo-centrism,
Nature as chaotic
and dangerous
Misanthropism,
Nature as pristine and
harmonious, Humans
as chaotic and
destructive
Love toward all life

Part
Whole

All Life
Human Life

Sustainability Tensions
Collapsed
It’s my job to look out for the organization, because
there are other people who only look out for
themselves OR I need to look out for myself
because the organization doesn’t care about me
We need to protect business from the government
OR we need to protect society from business
I’m for all life flourishing; those self-interested
individualistic jerks are the problem OR everyone is
self-interested - those supposed altruists are self-
interested and are disguising their self-interest to
promote their own agenda
Our future is doomed OR those problems aren’t real

Sustainability Tensions
Collapsed Expressed
It’s my job to look out for the organization,
because there are other people who only
look out for themselves OR I need to look
out for myself because the organization
doesn’t care about me
I want myself and my teammates to flourish
AND my organization to flourish
We need to protect business from the
government OR we need to protect society
from business
We want to profit as an organization AND
we want to provide a net value or
contribution to society
I’m for all life flourishing; those self-
interested individualistic jerks are the
problem OR everyone is self-interested -
those supposed altruists are self-interested
and are disguising their self-interest to
promote their own agenda
I want all life to flourish AND I want my life
to flourish
Our future is doomed OR those problems
aren’t real
I’m out to create a flourishing future AND
we have real problems here

Part-whole paradoxes that underlie
pitfalls of sustainability
Part Whole Either-Or Pitfall 1 Either-Or Pitfall 2
(flipside of 1)
Both-And Pathway
My own
responsibility
Shared
responsibility
Someone should /
Others should…
“China should…”
“Business should…”
Holier than thou /
Loan Wolf / Self-
sustaining / I’m
being the change
Creating, sharing and
acknowledging
commitments
My flourishing The flourishing
of the
organization
I need to care about
myself and not the
business, the
business doesn’t
care about me
They don’t care about
the business, they
only care about
themselves, that’s the
problem
Aliveness, innovation,
and value creation
supported by mutual
care, trust and respect
Health of
business
Health of
society
No government.
Protect the market
from the gov’t
No corporations.
Protect the public
from profit
Hybrid and collaborative
solutions, Acknowledge-
ment of mutualistic
relatedness and value
Human life All life Anthropo-centrism,
Nature as chaotic
and dangerous
Misanthropism,
Nature as pristine and
harmonious, Humans
as chaotic and
destructive
Love toward all life

Part
Whole
Ambivalence
Indifference
Single
Interest
Single Interest
Paradoxes that underlie pitfalls of
sustainability

Internal/External Motivations
Internal Motivation
(volition and self-
determination)
ExternalMotivation
(economicreward) Flourishing
Indifference
Self-interest
Self-actualization

Vision/Reality
Visionary
GroundedinCurrent
Reality
Healthy
Creative
Tension
Indifference
Disillusion
Delusion

When we experience the world as “too complex” we are
not just experiencing the complexity of the world. We are
experiencing a mismatch between the world’s complexity
and our own at this moment. There are only two logical
ways to mend this mismatch – reduce the world’s
complexity or increase our own.
Kegan & Lahey “Immunity to Change” p. 12

What’s it going to take to create the
future we want?
…nothing short of an evolutionary transformation of
our consciousness “a quantum shift in mental
complexity” – Robert Kegan
Is that going to hurt?
…a little bit

In the midst of wicked problems,
paradox and an increasingly complex
world,
Sustainability leaders are:
• Champions of ambivalence
• Facilitators of flourishing
• Impetus for innovation

Holding Ambivalence
• Acknowledging your own ambivalence invites
others to do the same, and creates the conditions
for dialogue or innovation to occur that
simultaneously represents and solves for both
interests at play
• Conversely, not acknowledging ambivalence
invites others to represent the poll that is
underrepresented by you, which can result in
polarization and a discursive, contentious, or
defensive exploration of the tension, less likely to
support innovation or flourishing

Competing Objective
CompetingObjective
Ambivalence
Indifference
Single
Interest
Single Interest
Low High
High
Where can you express your ambivalence where
it hasn’t been expressed before?

Objective
Objective
Ambivalence
Indifference
Single
Interest
Single Interest
Low High
High
PartWhole
Planetary and
Human
Flourishing
Survival
Planetary
Flourishing
Human
Flourishing
Healthy Expressions of Tensions
through Ambivalence

Paired exercise (acknowledgement)
Inside your new expression of ambivalence and toward
facilitating a culture characterized by healthy tension -
• Who are three people you can acknowledge for
standing for objectives you previously shadowed or
dismissed?
• What have they stood for, despite not having your
support?
• Have three new conversations expressing your own
ambivalence, your old way of being about it, the bait,
sharing a possible new way of being and a new future
you’d like to work toward
• Schedule these conversations in your calendar now and
for a time ahead of your scheduled partner follow-up
call.

Paired exercise (successes)
Where do you see successful examples of
ambivalence powerfully expressed driving
flourishing and innovation? Within…
– Leadership
– Employees
– Organizational structures
– Culture
– Communications with stakeholders

Patagonia quotes
“It's 50/50, half the people think we should sell
less stuff, half think we should sell more. Lots of
discussion. Someone always tries to ask Yvon to
come up with the answer. He turns his back and
walks out of the room. Tremendous comfort
with ambiguity!”

Patagonia quotes
Question: If Patagonia was successful at achieving it's greatest
ambitions, what would that look like?
That's a good question, I feel like working in a sales channel,
we kind of experience conflict with that, because we
understand the company's goals to inspire solutions to the
environmental crisis and do no unnecessary harm and
understand wanting to make choices in life, but also having
pretty significant sales goals, the shared sales goals that we're
not going to meet. Trying to understand how those can be
achieved at the same time and not be in conflict, because like
this year, the sales goals felt in conflict with the other goals.
We couldn't do some of the things that we felt like we needed
to do.

Patagonia quotes
Question: Imagine if Patagonia was successful at achieving its most
ambitious goals, what would that look like?
It would be a one billion dollar company that doesn't sell anything.
That's really what I think about the goals that we have set for
ourselves. That's kind of it. Really honestly in a super powerful and
cool way we are thinking about that. Obviously, we have to sell
something, and that's what we're doing, but like how do we do that in
the most not only environmental way, but building the best product
and just not selling that much of it. How can we do that? How do we
stay super core to our customer. It's this interesting balance that
everybody's trying to dissect, like can you do it, can you not sell out to
the masses, stay core to who we have been and who we want to be
and continue to grow.

Paired exercise (challenges)
• Where do you see stuckness, conflict, or
systematic pitfalls in your organization?
• How could you redefine these challenges as
healthy creative tensions or ambivalences that
could drive innovation and flourishing?
• Who are the next three people to invite into
that inquiry? When are you going to have
those conversations?

A Request
Bringing this material to life requires your stories
and reflections from the field.
If you’re open to an interview, please let us
know. We’re scheduling interviews to take place
in person.

Thank you for being part of our
transformation

We welcome your questions,
contributions, and stories
jason.jay@gmail.com
gabriel.grant@gmail.com
www.authenticsustainability.com

Beyond the Choir: Healthy Conversations about Sustainability

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Editor's Notes