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Careers in Sales Engineering
By Phil Bureman
pebureman@ecolab.com
Senior Industry Technical Consultant
Nalco Water
MS&T Graduate Spring 1981, BSChE
My History
• I graduated from UMR in May 1981- BSChE
– I did a Co-Op internship with Caterpillar from 1977-1980
• I worked for Exxon in Tech Sales 1981-1993
– Wholesale solvents, lubricants & process oils
• I have been with Nalco from 1993 thru today
– I specialize in process additives & technology for the
nitrogen fertilizer & the biofuel industries
– ASTM D-2, NBB, LA-BE, FEW/NEC, SGA, FFF, ANNA, AIChE
– I share 3 patents with Nalco Researchers
• I live in the Kansas City area and have been married
for 37 years; I have 3 children and 2 grandchildren
Let me tell you a little about my company
Nalco Water, Nalco Champion & Ecolab
• Nalco Chemical & Ecolab merged in late 2011
– $12 Billion in 2017 Sales Globally with 45k+ employees
• Nalco Water is the world’s largest industrial water
treatment company: Boilers, Cooling & Waste Water
– We treat water and many processes in virtually every market
• Nalco Champion makes up about 40% of Nalco Sales
and focuses on crude oil production & refining
• Ecolab focuses on industrial & commercial sanitization
– Industry, Institutional, Restaurants
www.ecolab.com/
ecolab.com/nalco-water/
ecolab.com/nalco-champion
Why Am I Here at OXE?
• I’m here to talk about career directions you might
consider as you approach graduation from MS&T
– Directions you may not be aware of
– Directions that you may not think are applicable or
available to you
– Perhaps increase your job opportunities
• Opportunities for summer internships in 2019
I’m not authorized to interview anyone today or to make offers
but I can tell you a little about what we offer
 Training provides overview of permanent employment position
including technical and sales training
 Utilize Your Engineering Skills by learning how Nalco Water
applications are used to solve customer problems and grow business
 Gain Diverse Industry Exposure by visiting a variety of customer sites
 Independent Internship Project that provides value to customer
 Lunch and Learns with Subject Matter Experts to learn about niche
areas of Ecolab.
The Nalco Water Internship Program –
What is in it for you?
Summer
Internships Exposure to Nalco Water’s
business and culture
When, How & How Much?
Intern Program:
 10-12 week structured program (May-August)
 Mileage paid if personal vehicle is used to get to customer
site
 Housing not provided
 However, we try to locate you where you already have housing
- i.e. school, home, relatives, etc
 Nalco Primary Trainers provide technical and sales training
 Nalco Sales Training is Outstanding!
 Summer Interns are eligible for permanent positions
 There is significantly more classroom and on-site training provided
once hired into a permanent decision
 The Current Pay Rate is $22/hour, 40 hours/week
Qualifications?
• Bachelor of Science Degree, Chemical Engineering or
related discipline
• Must have a GPA of 2.5 or higher
• Valid Driver's License and Acceptable Motor Vehicle
Record
• Authorized to work permanently in the US without
sponsorship
• Strong desire to work in technical sales
Basic Qualifications For Internships
What About Permanent Positions at Nalco?
• Starting pay varies by Division and location but is typically $55k to $65k/year
base salary to start
• Plus Up to 20% per year commission after training period
• Plus new car with all expenses paid (~$6k/year)
• Plus Health, Dental, Eye Care, Medical Prescription Coverage
• Plus 401k and Pension Plan
• Plus Expense Account
– Travel expenses are paid in full – no per diem
• New hires are eligible for up to $4,000 for relocation allowance (taxable)
• We also provide extensive classroom & field based sales & technical training
for all sales engineers
• Check out https://jobs.ecolab.com/ to search for open positions around the
world within all three companies
Permanent Positions at Nalco Water
And there are opportunities to travel the world!
Let me show you a few of the unusual places where I have traveled to represent Nalco..
RUSSIA
Poland
France
Argentina
Trinidad
The Netherlands
Or even Kansas!
Let’s talk more about Sales Engineering
Topics
• What is sales engineering?
• What is the role of a sales engineer
– Examples
• Characteristics of the profession
• Personal questions you should consider
• Differences between traditional chemical
engineers and sales engineers
• Jobs Outlook and Earnings Potentials
• Your questions
What Is Your Impression of Sales?
• That jerk at the Apple Store that sold me an over
priced iPhone case
• They are the dudes that couldn’t pass Chemical
Engineering Design…..
• They must all be dumb jocks from Mizzou…..
• Are you thinking St Pats Board Reps?
• “Geez Phil, I didn’t suffer through Diffy Q, P-Chem
and ChemE Kinetics just to sell widgets….”
Let me tell you more…..
What Is Sales Engineering?
• Sales engineers “Sell Knowledge”
• They are expert in:
– A particular knowledge base
– A type of product, application, or service
• A sales engineer is an “extension” of the existing
engineering staff at a particular site
• As such, the sales engineer fills the role of knowing
how:
– To solve technical problems & sometimes people problems
• Different problems every day perhaps at different sites
– To apply special or unique technology
• Perhaps more efficiently than the engineers on-site
– To find new ways to solve problems
Let me tell you more….
The Role of the Sales Engineer
• “Traditional” chemical engineers are experts in
their existing process, equipment and practices
– Their time and talents are usually of more value when
they are focused on those processes, equipment and
practices
• Their job is to “make the juice” - not spend time
becoming experts in fields that support their
processes, equipment and practices
• A traditional chemical engineer may have a
need to accomplish a new or unusual task
– Sales engineers give them options for how to do it
– This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value
Let me give a couple of examples …..
Example 1: You’re a process engineer at a coal
gasification plant
• A foaming problem develops in your coal slurry
that you can’t find a way to stop
• The foam is resulting in $50,000 per day in lost
production and your boss is really mad
• Should you start studying the fluid dynamics of
foam control or call in a chemical anti-foam
supplier?
• Will just any anti-foam work?
• Do you have the experience necessary to
ensure that your solution won’t cause other
problems down stream?
This is where a Sales Engineer can sometimes be of value…..
Example 2: You’re a project engineer at an
ammonia plant
• You’ve been assigned a project to de-bottleneck
your methane reformer.
• Your boss says your competitor is using a more
efficient catalyst
• Your plant is at a competitive disadvantage and
may close by the end of the quarter if you can’t find
a way to improve throughput on that reformer.
• Do you get out the old text books?
• Do you get on Google and try to learn more about
reformer catalyst?
This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value…..
Example 3: You’re a crude unit engineer for a
petroleum refinery
• Since you’ve been there, a chemical supplier has provided a
neutralizing amine and anti-foulant program to the tower reflux
to prevent corrosion and fouling in your crude tower.
• The refinery just switched to a new heavy crude from Canada.
Since the crude change, fouling is costing your business unit
$30,000 per day in increased energy costs and corrosion
seems to be occurring that will eat through the tower trays by
the end of the month.
• Do you call up your old MS&T advisor and ask him if he knows
anything about crude unit corrosion and fouling control?
This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value…..
Example 4: You are a process engineer for a brand
new biodiesel plant
• Your proprietary production technology is not working because
an emulsion of methyl ester, glycerin & unreacted tri-glycerides
is forming in your biodiesel water wash system forcing your
plant to slow production to less than 20% of capacity.
– Your R&D Team doesn’t know why the emulsion is forming and can’t
prevent it
• If you can’t eliminate the emulsion your plant will have to shut
down – a potential loss of $ millions to your employer and you
and 45 others will lose your job
– Who do you call?
• Well in this case they called Phil Bureman and the Nalco Water
Team found a fuel safe demulsifier chemistry that eliminated
the emulsion and the new plant was saved.
This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value…..
The following scenarios are examples of
other ways that you might apply the
knowledge you gained at S&T and get
paid for it!
Let’s consider a traditional chemical engineering system…
SCFM Air Removal
Na 10 ppb, Si 20 ppb
pH, Cond, Ca, Si,
M-Alk, Cl, Product
pH, Fe, Fe2
pH, Cond, Ca, Si,
M-Alk, Cl, Product
TURBINES EXHAUST STEAM SURFACE CONDENSER SYSTEM
KPI: Inches of Vacuum
CW Flow Rate
CW pH
CW Total
Dissolved
Solids
Sales Engineer
Scale
Prevention
Corrosion
Prevention
Micro Bio
Control
Process Flow
Rates
Heat Flux
Vibration
Levels
Turn Around
Planning
Process Engineer
Each additional “Inch of Vacuum” is worth
$600,000 per year to this plant in energy savings
Keeping this condenser free of scale and corrosion is vital. The
sales engineer makes that happen
Hopefully you now understand….
• Sales engineers really do have technical skills
• Sales engineers really do experience technical
challenges
• Sales engineering is not like selling cars or
clothes washers or iPhones
• You might be asking yourself if sales
engineering is something you should consider
Okay, well let’s talk about you....
Consider Your Own Personality
• Are you more focused on:
– Knowledge & skills or
– Personality & ability to communicate?
• We call this “Back wheel skills” or “front wheel skills”?
• Are you a “doer” or a “teacher”?
• Where do you want to be in 5, 10, 20, 30
years?
– How are you going to get there?
• Discussion……
Let’s talk a little more about you and who you are…
Personality Characteristics of a
Successful Sales Engineer
• Must like people and be likable
• Must have strong technical competence
• Must have an ability to listen, communicate, &
teach
• Must have initiative and strong work ethic
• Must have persistence and dedication
• Story of a good friend of mine:
Engineer/Plant Mgr/Sales Engineer/Plant Mgr/VP
What else should you consider?
Questions You Might Consider
• Are you comfortable in social situations?
• Do you enjoy entertaining & having fun with others?
• Are you a good listener?
• Can you manage your time well?
• Do you enjoy working closely with others even in
tense situations?
– Can you work independently?
• Are you comfortable influencing others?
• Are you self confident? Can you also be humble?
• Do you prefer dynamic change or daily routine?
• Do you enjoy travel?
What about salary & number of job opportunities?
Salary and Employment Outlook
www.bls.gov ( 2016)
Item Chemical
Engineer
Sales Engineer
Employment in the USA 32,700 74,900
Median Salary Estimate $102,160 per year $98,720 per year
Employment Outlook: projected
growth rate 2016 to 2026
+8.0 % growth +7.0 % growth
Comparable compensation….. What about other differences in job style?
Career Differences
Item Chemical Engineer Sales Engineer
Expense Account Usually not Yes
Company Car Usually not Yes or Car Allowance
Travel Occasional travel Typically lots of travel
Work/ Home Location Usually the same work place
everyday/ Few moves
Typically different locations
everyday; May relocate
Work variety Some Most all the time
Job Security
/Opportunity for
Promotion
Good; May have to wait for
someone to retire to move
up
Very good, if you are good
Very poor, if not the right job
for you
Working Hours 7:30 to 4:30;
40 hours per week (except
at turnaround)
50+ hours per week. When
you are needed by your
customer. Demanding, but
Rewarding.
Control of your Time Some You have almost all of that
responsibility
If You Decide to Consider Sales
Engineering, Be Aware That
• Some sales jobs require you to provide service:
– equipment installation, hardware service, lab work etc.
• Some companies manufacture and sell what would be
considered commodities
– This type of selling is mostly done on the basis of price & company
reputation, not your skills.
– Such companies are driven by manufacturing excellence (ie, basic
chemicals & intermediates)
• Others are driven by the power of their technology or
expertise (ie, engineered systems, catalyst, consulting services)
• Still others are driven by the skill of their sales force
– A sales driven company will train you to sell and coach you to
success if you are willing to work hard!
Okay, let’s summarize…..
Key Take-Aways
• A sales engineer is an “extension” of the
existing engineering staff at a particular site
– Most sales engineers “Sell Knowledge”
• Sales engineers provide valuable options for
solving engineering challenges
• Sales engineers really do have technical
skills and they solve “actual” technical
problems
• Compensation is comparable to traditional
engineering positions
– Job prospects & perks might be even better
• The sales engineer skill set requires strength
of personality and communication
Hopefully I’ve given you some things
to think about in your future
Engineering Career…
• The good news is that you have a lot of
choices!
• Let me congratulate you for getting this
far in the Chemical Engineering
Program at MS&T!
• You could have ended up at Mizzou!
CAD or Cabernet
Careers in Sales Engineering
https://jobs.ecolab.com/
Thank You For
Your Time!
Phil Bureman
Nalco Water
Senior Industry Tech. Consultant – Chemicals & Biofuels
Cell: 913-708-4969
pebureman@Ecolab.com
linkedin.com/in/philbureman
https://www.slideshare.net/pebureman

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Cad or cabernet (nx power lite copy)

  • 1. CAD or Cabernet Careers in Sales Engineering By Phil Bureman pebureman@ecolab.com Senior Industry Technical Consultant Nalco Water MS&T Graduate Spring 1981, BSChE
  • 2. My History • I graduated from UMR in May 1981- BSChE – I did a Co-Op internship with Caterpillar from 1977-1980 • I worked for Exxon in Tech Sales 1981-1993 – Wholesale solvents, lubricants & process oils • I have been with Nalco from 1993 thru today – I specialize in process additives & technology for the nitrogen fertilizer & the biofuel industries – ASTM D-2, NBB, LA-BE, FEW/NEC, SGA, FFF, ANNA, AIChE – I share 3 patents with Nalco Researchers • I live in the Kansas City area and have been married for 37 years; I have 3 children and 2 grandchildren Let me tell you a little about my company
  • 3. Nalco Water, Nalco Champion & Ecolab • Nalco Chemical & Ecolab merged in late 2011 – $12 Billion in 2017 Sales Globally with 45k+ employees • Nalco Water is the world’s largest industrial water treatment company: Boilers, Cooling & Waste Water – We treat water and many processes in virtually every market • Nalco Champion makes up about 40% of Nalco Sales and focuses on crude oil production & refining • Ecolab focuses on industrial & commercial sanitization – Industry, Institutional, Restaurants www.ecolab.com/ ecolab.com/nalco-water/ ecolab.com/nalco-champion
  • 4. Why Am I Here at OXE? • I’m here to talk about career directions you might consider as you approach graduation from MS&T – Directions you may not be aware of – Directions that you may not think are applicable or available to you – Perhaps increase your job opportunities • Opportunities for summer internships in 2019 I’m not authorized to interview anyone today or to make offers but I can tell you a little about what we offer
  • 5.  Training provides overview of permanent employment position including technical and sales training  Utilize Your Engineering Skills by learning how Nalco Water applications are used to solve customer problems and grow business  Gain Diverse Industry Exposure by visiting a variety of customer sites  Independent Internship Project that provides value to customer  Lunch and Learns with Subject Matter Experts to learn about niche areas of Ecolab. The Nalco Water Internship Program – What is in it for you? Summer Internships Exposure to Nalco Water’s business and culture When, How & How Much?
  • 6. Intern Program:  10-12 week structured program (May-August)  Mileage paid if personal vehicle is used to get to customer site  Housing not provided  However, we try to locate you where you already have housing - i.e. school, home, relatives, etc  Nalco Primary Trainers provide technical and sales training  Nalco Sales Training is Outstanding!  Summer Interns are eligible for permanent positions  There is significantly more classroom and on-site training provided once hired into a permanent decision  The Current Pay Rate is $22/hour, 40 hours/week Qualifications?
  • 7. • Bachelor of Science Degree, Chemical Engineering or related discipline • Must have a GPA of 2.5 or higher • Valid Driver's License and Acceptable Motor Vehicle Record • Authorized to work permanently in the US without sponsorship • Strong desire to work in technical sales Basic Qualifications For Internships What About Permanent Positions at Nalco?
  • 8. • Starting pay varies by Division and location but is typically $55k to $65k/year base salary to start • Plus Up to 20% per year commission after training period • Plus new car with all expenses paid (~$6k/year) • Plus Health, Dental, Eye Care, Medical Prescription Coverage • Plus 401k and Pension Plan • Plus Expense Account – Travel expenses are paid in full – no per diem • New hires are eligible for up to $4,000 for relocation allowance (taxable) • We also provide extensive classroom & field based sales & technical training for all sales engineers • Check out https://jobs.ecolab.com/ to search for open positions around the world within all three companies Permanent Positions at Nalco Water And there are opportunities to travel the world! Let me show you a few of the unusual places where I have traveled to represent Nalco..
  • 15. Or even Kansas! Let’s talk more about Sales Engineering
  • 16. Topics • What is sales engineering? • What is the role of a sales engineer – Examples • Characteristics of the profession • Personal questions you should consider • Differences between traditional chemical engineers and sales engineers • Jobs Outlook and Earnings Potentials • Your questions
  • 17. What Is Your Impression of Sales? • That jerk at the Apple Store that sold me an over priced iPhone case • They are the dudes that couldn’t pass Chemical Engineering Design….. • They must all be dumb jocks from Mizzou….. • Are you thinking St Pats Board Reps? • “Geez Phil, I didn’t suffer through Diffy Q, P-Chem and ChemE Kinetics just to sell widgets….” Let me tell you more…..
  • 18. What Is Sales Engineering? • Sales engineers “Sell Knowledge” • They are expert in: – A particular knowledge base – A type of product, application, or service • A sales engineer is an “extension” of the existing engineering staff at a particular site • As such, the sales engineer fills the role of knowing how: – To solve technical problems & sometimes people problems • Different problems every day perhaps at different sites – To apply special or unique technology • Perhaps more efficiently than the engineers on-site – To find new ways to solve problems Let me tell you more….
  • 19. The Role of the Sales Engineer • “Traditional” chemical engineers are experts in their existing process, equipment and practices – Their time and talents are usually of more value when they are focused on those processes, equipment and practices • Their job is to “make the juice” - not spend time becoming experts in fields that support their processes, equipment and practices • A traditional chemical engineer may have a need to accomplish a new or unusual task – Sales engineers give them options for how to do it – This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value Let me give a couple of examples …..
  • 20. Example 1: You’re a process engineer at a coal gasification plant • A foaming problem develops in your coal slurry that you can’t find a way to stop • The foam is resulting in $50,000 per day in lost production and your boss is really mad • Should you start studying the fluid dynamics of foam control or call in a chemical anti-foam supplier? • Will just any anti-foam work? • Do you have the experience necessary to ensure that your solution won’t cause other problems down stream? This is where a Sales Engineer can sometimes be of value…..
  • 21. Example 2: You’re a project engineer at an ammonia plant • You’ve been assigned a project to de-bottleneck your methane reformer. • Your boss says your competitor is using a more efficient catalyst • Your plant is at a competitive disadvantage and may close by the end of the quarter if you can’t find a way to improve throughput on that reformer. • Do you get out the old text books? • Do you get on Google and try to learn more about reformer catalyst? This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value…..
  • 22. Example 3: You’re a crude unit engineer for a petroleum refinery • Since you’ve been there, a chemical supplier has provided a neutralizing amine and anti-foulant program to the tower reflux to prevent corrosion and fouling in your crude tower. • The refinery just switched to a new heavy crude from Canada. Since the crude change, fouling is costing your business unit $30,000 per day in increased energy costs and corrosion seems to be occurring that will eat through the tower trays by the end of the month. • Do you call up your old MS&T advisor and ask him if he knows anything about crude unit corrosion and fouling control? This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value…..
  • 23. Example 4: You are a process engineer for a brand new biodiesel plant • Your proprietary production technology is not working because an emulsion of methyl ester, glycerin & unreacted tri-glycerides is forming in your biodiesel water wash system forcing your plant to slow production to less than 20% of capacity. – Your R&D Team doesn’t know why the emulsion is forming and can’t prevent it • If you can’t eliminate the emulsion your plant will have to shut down – a potential loss of $ millions to your employer and you and 45 others will lose your job – Who do you call? • Well in this case they called Phil Bureman and the Nalco Water Team found a fuel safe demulsifier chemistry that eliminated the emulsion and the new plant was saved. This is where a Sales Engineer can be of value…..
  • 24. The following scenarios are examples of other ways that you might apply the knowledge you gained at S&T and get paid for it! Let’s consider a traditional chemical engineering system…
  • 25. SCFM Air Removal Na 10 ppb, Si 20 ppb pH, Cond, Ca, Si, M-Alk, Cl, Product pH, Fe, Fe2 pH, Cond, Ca, Si, M-Alk, Cl, Product TURBINES EXHAUST STEAM SURFACE CONDENSER SYSTEM KPI: Inches of Vacuum CW Flow Rate CW pH CW Total Dissolved Solids Sales Engineer Scale Prevention Corrosion Prevention Micro Bio Control Process Flow Rates Heat Flux Vibration Levels Turn Around Planning Process Engineer
  • 26. Each additional “Inch of Vacuum” is worth $600,000 per year to this plant in energy savings Keeping this condenser free of scale and corrosion is vital. The sales engineer makes that happen
  • 27. Hopefully you now understand…. • Sales engineers really do have technical skills • Sales engineers really do experience technical challenges • Sales engineering is not like selling cars or clothes washers or iPhones • You might be asking yourself if sales engineering is something you should consider Okay, well let’s talk about you....
  • 28. Consider Your Own Personality • Are you more focused on: – Knowledge & skills or – Personality & ability to communicate? • We call this “Back wheel skills” or “front wheel skills”? • Are you a “doer” or a “teacher”? • Where do you want to be in 5, 10, 20, 30 years? – How are you going to get there? • Discussion…… Let’s talk a little more about you and who you are…
  • 29. Personality Characteristics of a Successful Sales Engineer • Must like people and be likable • Must have strong technical competence • Must have an ability to listen, communicate, & teach • Must have initiative and strong work ethic • Must have persistence and dedication • Story of a good friend of mine: Engineer/Plant Mgr/Sales Engineer/Plant Mgr/VP What else should you consider?
  • 30. Questions You Might Consider • Are you comfortable in social situations? • Do you enjoy entertaining & having fun with others? • Are you a good listener? • Can you manage your time well? • Do you enjoy working closely with others even in tense situations? – Can you work independently? • Are you comfortable influencing others? • Are you self confident? Can you also be humble? • Do you prefer dynamic change or daily routine? • Do you enjoy travel? What about salary & number of job opportunities?
  • 31. Salary and Employment Outlook www.bls.gov ( 2016) Item Chemical Engineer Sales Engineer Employment in the USA 32,700 74,900 Median Salary Estimate $102,160 per year $98,720 per year Employment Outlook: projected growth rate 2016 to 2026 +8.0 % growth +7.0 % growth Comparable compensation….. What about other differences in job style?
  • 32. Career Differences Item Chemical Engineer Sales Engineer Expense Account Usually not Yes Company Car Usually not Yes or Car Allowance Travel Occasional travel Typically lots of travel Work/ Home Location Usually the same work place everyday/ Few moves Typically different locations everyday; May relocate Work variety Some Most all the time Job Security /Opportunity for Promotion Good; May have to wait for someone to retire to move up Very good, if you are good Very poor, if not the right job for you Working Hours 7:30 to 4:30; 40 hours per week (except at turnaround) 50+ hours per week. When you are needed by your customer. Demanding, but Rewarding. Control of your Time Some You have almost all of that responsibility
  • 33. If You Decide to Consider Sales Engineering, Be Aware That • Some sales jobs require you to provide service: – equipment installation, hardware service, lab work etc. • Some companies manufacture and sell what would be considered commodities – This type of selling is mostly done on the basis of price & company reputation, not your skills. – Such companies are driven by manufacturing excellence (ie, basic chemicals & intermediates) • Others are driven by the power of their technology or expertise (ie, engineered systems, catalyst, consulting services) • Still others are driven by the skill of their sales force – A sales driven company will train you to sell and coach you to success if you are willing to work hard! Okay, let’s summarize…..
  • 34. Key Take-Aways • A sales engineer is an “extension” of the existing engineering staff at a particular site – Most sales engineers “Sell Knowledge” • Sales engineers provide valuable options for solving engineering challenges • Sales engineers really do have technical skills and they solve “actual” technical problems • Compensation is comparable to traditional engineering positions – Job prospects & perks might be even better • The sales engineer skill set requires strength of personality and communication
  • 35. Hopefully I’ve given you some things to think about in your future Engineering Career… • The good news is that you have a lot of choices! • Let me congratulate you for getting this far in the Chemical Engineering Program at MS&T! • You could have ended up at Mizzou!
  • 36. CAD or Cabernet Careers in Sales Engineering https://jobs.ecolab.com/ Thank You For Your Time! Phil Bureman Nalco Water Senior Industry Tech. Consultant – Chemicals & Biofuels Cell: 913-708-4969 pebureman@Ecolab.com linkedin.com/in/philbureman https://www.slideshare.net/pebureman

Editor's Notes

  1. NALCO WATER SUMMER INTERNSHIP PROGRAM Discuss what your intern has done in your district.
  2. Go over the 10 Week internship Program for Interns. Juniors and Seniors. Then If selected, you will move into the ASE program.