Lysis, Platonic Dialogue on Love and Friendship, Where Old Men Ogle Boys at the Gymnasium

How can we benefit by reflecting on Lysis, the Platonic dialogue on love
and friendship? Or is Socrates reflecting on relationships between
acquaintances?
Can only two good men be friends? Can two bad men be friends, and
can a good and a bad man be friends?
If you friend does not reciprocate your friendship, is he still your friend?
Should we keep scorecards on our friends?
Can an enemy love a friend, and can a friend love an enemy?
Are friendships strengthened by what they hold in common, or by their
differences?

Please, we welcome interesting questions in the
comments. Let us learn and reflect together!
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There are three Platonic dialogues on love and friendship,
according to many scholars. The early dialogue on love and
friendship is Lysis, and also the two later dialogues that contrast
romantic or carnal love to divine love, the Symposium, where the
dinner guests, then Socrates, compose speeches on love, and
the Phaedrus, with the famous metaphor of the heavenly chariot
pulled by the immortal, divine steed, who wishes to steer
upward, and the mortal, carnal steed, who pulls the chariot back
down to earth. These steeds represent the competition between
the base and divine loves in each of our souls.

https://youtu.be/OIe5pn2S1Ls https://youtu.be/z6X3pwVTdrc
https://youtu.be/JFw5ThfwUAg https://youtu.be/BOtavup_N4g

We also include the dialogue on Alcibiades 1 as a
dialogue that explores the friendship between
Alcibiades and Socrates. We will also cut a video
summarizing these four dialogues on love and
friendship, examining the question of whether
Socrates condones homosexuality and pederasty, or
men-boy love.

Summary: Lysis, Platonic Dialogue on Love

The Socratic dialogue of Lysis is disturbing for those who are less tolerant of
homosexuality. In this dialogue, Socrates is accompanying the older men
Hippothales and Ctesippus to the gymnasium, where the twelve-year-old Lysis will
be exercising with his young best friend, Menexenus. Hippothales has a crush on the
young Lysis, and Ctesippus complains that his older friend even composes love
songs about the young Lysis. Socrates agrees to try to provide an entrée for
Hippothales to converse with Lysis, to get to know him better.
Everyone matured quicker out of necessity in the ancient world, as people did not
live as long as they do today, often they passed away before they were forty-years-
old. For example, Alexander the Great first commanded an army as regent when he
was sixteen, so sixteen-year-olds had far more responsibilities in the ancient world
than they do today. However, boys at twelve in the ancient world were still twelve-
years-old.

Alexander the Great, victorious over Darius at the battle of Gaugamela, by Jacques Courtois, late 1600's

Lysis shows no interest in Hippothales, but everyone knows he is always drawn to a
debate. Socrates starts a discussion with Ctesippus, enticing Lysis to join in the
debate. Socrates then engages Lysis in an exploration of the nature of friendship.
Since Lysis is quite young, Socrates does not seek to prove him a fool. Instead,
Socrates proposes philosophical queries about love and friendship, which they both
discuss. After all, philosophy is the love of wisdom, and philosophy should be our
first love, according to Socrates.
Before they discuss friendship, Socrates opens with a series of what appear to be
grooming questions, asking whether his parents truly love him since they restrict
what he can do. Lysis responds that his parents, indeed, are quite protective, since
he is not yet of age, and accepts that, in some respects, his slaves can do some
things, like lead the horse in their cart, that he cannot do.

Socrates notices that Hippothales is quite shy, so he
decides not to encourage Lysis to converse with his suitor.
This reluctance can be due to the fact that although old
men liked to observe gymnastic exercises and
competitions to ogle the nude young boys, that pederasty
at the gymnasium was likely illegal in Athens. One footnote
references an ancient court case referencing these laws
guarding against pederasty at the gymnasium, which
applied to both spectators and especially coaches.

Athletes in a
gymnasium.
Gouache painting.

As in the Phaedrus, Socrates’ dialogue on friendship
in Lysis extols an ideal form of friendship based on
philosophy rather than passion. The dialogue ends
with Lysis noting that it is late, and that his parents
will are expecting him to return home soon. But the
dialogue does shed additional light on the fact that in
the trial and execution of Socrates, one of the
charges against him accused Socrates is that he was
corrupting the youth of Athens.

Lysis: Nature of Friendship & Acquaintances
Plato notes that “Lysis was by
far the best-looking of the
boys and young men and
looked as though he
deserved to be called not just
beautiful, but a model of the
noble combination of beauty
and excellence.”
Plato's Academy mosaic, 1st century BC from Pompeii

The opening Socratic questions lead me to wonder if
Socrates is pondering the nature of acquaintanceship
rather than friendship. The most common type of
acquaintances are our work friends; rarely do these
friendships continue after we change jobs. These
often include other business acquaintances, though
most of us keep up with them more readily.

(REPEAT) SOCRATES: “Will we be anyone’s friends, will
anyone love us, in those areas where we are useless?”
LYSIS: “Of course not.”
SOCRATES: “So, if your father doesn’t love you at the
moment, that is because no one loves anyone else in so far
as he is useless.”
I see this as a grooming question, as Socrates has pointed
out that his father does not trust Lysis to be independent,
going where he wants to go.

SOCRATES: “Will we be anyone’s friends, will anyone
love us, in those areas where we are useless?”
LYSIS: “Of course not.”
SOCRATES: “So, if your father doesn’t love you at the
moment, that is because no one loves anyone else
in so far as he is useless.”
LYSIS: “So it seems.”
SOCRATES: “It follows that everyone will love you
and be on familiar terms with you if you become
knowledgeable, because you’ll be helpful and
beneficial. But if you don’t, no one will love you, not
your father, nor your mother, nor your relatives, nor
anyone else.”

Plato appears to be advancing a utilitarian type of
love. Although we all seek friendship with those who
will contribute to our friendship, yet once we
befriend someone, we should not keep score, but
help our friends however we can. But his comment
that his parents would not love him if he is not useful
seems odd, Dr Wikipedia suggests that Plato means
that children please their parents when they excel at
a task.

The Abduction of
Ganymede By
Zeus as an Eagle,
by Bénigne
Gagneraux, 1782

SOCRATES admits that “I am
deeply passionate about acquiring
friends. I would prefer a friend to
a good horse or a dog.” But my
advice is: Do not admit this
preference to your friends.
Socrates asks, “When is a person
fond of another person, who is his
friend? Is the one who loves the
friend of the one who is loved, or
is it the other way around?”
Socrates teaches a youth, José Aparicio, 1811

SOCRATES asks a similar question,
“Is the one who loves the friend
of the one who is loved, whether
his love is not returned or when
he even meets with hatred? Or is
the one who has loved the friend
of the one who loves? Or, in this
situation, is neither of them the
friend of the other, unless they
both love each other?”
Socrates, by Luca Giordano, 1600’s

SOCRATES then wonders,
“Previously, we thought that if
just one of them loved the other,
they were both friends. But now
we are saying that, unless both
of them love each other, neither
of them is a friend to the other.”
Perhaps here Socrates is
repeating the adage that
marriage is the one task in life
that you cannot work on by
yourself. Is friendship then like
marriage?
Plato's Academy mosaic, 1st century BC from Pompeii

One simple answer is that in the long run both people need to be friends
to each other, but we will all face a crisis in our life when we need our
friends to be there for us, though we can contribute little to the
friendship at the moment.
Perhaps a superior path for our friendship to take is that of St John the
Cross. In his Dark Night of the Soul, he teaches us that we should only
seek those close friends whose friendship will increase in us our Love of
God, or the Platonic Love of the Good. In this divine friendship, since
those who truly Love God also love their neighbor as themselves, and this
goes double for our friends, then there is no discussion of who loves
whom, either ever or at this moment, for the love of true friends is
assumed.

St Augustine teaches a similar lesson in his
Confessions, that we should love all our close friends
in God, and not seek from our friends that which we
should seek only from God.
Socrates admits the case where a child momentarily
despises his parents when they discipline him, but
since this discipline is an expression of their love for
their child, the child is still dear to them.

SOCRATES asks whether “only good
men can be friends with one
another? Can true friendship exist
between a bad man and either a
good man or another bad man?” The
response of St John of the Cross
would likely be that friendship with a
bad man will draw you further away
from the Love of God, poisoning your
soul, leading you away from
salvation, which is the improvement
of your soul. Friendship with a good
man leads you to love and
compassion, friendship with a bad
men leads you to hatred and cruelty. Socrates by Leonidas Drosis, Academy of Athens, 1800’s

SOCRATES asks whether you should have
much in common with your friends. He
observes that Hesiod “points out that
poor people have no choice but to be
friends with rich men, that weak people
are forced to be friends with strong
people, whose support they rely on, that
sick people are bound to be close to their
doctors, and that laymen must inevitably
value and love experts.”
Hesiod and the Muse, by Gustave Moreau, 1891

Socrates points out that though many friendships form
because of what they hold in common, that sometimes
friendships can be strengthened when there are
differences.
Once a boss of mine asked me if I thought he was a good
boss. I responded, “Chuck, it is not your job to get along
with me, it is my job to get along with you.” This
questioning by Socrates suggests that this dialogue is more
about acquaintanceship than friendship.

SOCRATES asks, Can “an enemy love a
friend, and can a friend love an
enemy?” The Christian answer is when
Jesus exhorts us to love our enemies.
But Jesus does not exhort us to be
friends with our enemies, you can only
be friends with someone you trust,
and someone who, in the long run,
returns your love. You are allowed to
choose your friends, just as you must
only choose one to be your spouse.

Socrates is sloppy with his definitions; he
never really defines what is good and
what is bad. He does admit that there
are those who are only partially bad:
“When, despite the presence of badness,
it is not yet really bad, the presence of
badness makes it desire goodness; but
when the presence of badness makes it
really bad, it loses both the desire for
and the friendship of the good.” “When
someone is neither bad nor good, but
actually bad, then it is impossible for the
bad to be friend to the good.”
Socrates, his two wives, and Alcibiades, by Reyer Jacobsz van Blommendael, 1675

While motives matter, only God can see into our heart, and we often
deceive our neighbors and often ourselves above our evil motives. We
should seek always to see the best in our neighbors and friends; when we
do that, we will bring out the best in our neighbors and friends. It is
better to think the best about our neighbor and be mistaken, than to this
the worst of our friend and be mistaken.
One example of friends who bring out the best in each other is David and
Jonathan, son of King Saul, in the Old Testament. The stain glass windows
celebrate faith and valor, and love and loyalty.
Near the end of the dialogue, Socrates leads the discussion to romantic
or carnal love.

The covenant between David and Jonathan, by Chrispijn van den Broeck and Gerard P. Groenning, 1637
Stained glass windows in West Park United Reformed Church, Harrogate, England, 1862

SOCRATES: “Whenever one person desires or
lusts after another person, boys, he wouldn’t
feel desire or lust or affection unless he were
in some respect close to his beloved, thanks
to his soul or to some cast of his mind or to
his personality or to his appearance.”
MENEXENUS: “Quite so,” but Lysis kept quiet.
SOCRATES: “What we have found is that we
are bound to love that to which we are
naturally close.”
MENEXENUS: “So it seems.”
Zeus as an Eagle and Ganymede, by
Gabriel Ferrier, 1874

SOCRATES: “It follows, then, that
a genuine lover, one who is not
pretending, is bound to be loved
by the boy he fancies.” This
sounds like grooming to me.
This makes the boys
uncomfortable, “Lysis and
Menexenus could hardly bring
themselves to nod their assent
to this, but Hippothales’ pleasure
showed in the variety of colors
he turned.” Abduction of Ganymede, by Nicolaes Maes, 1681

This is the only section of the dialogue where
Socrates discusses the romantic or carnal aspect of
earthly love. Socrates instead seeks philosophy, and
in Greek this word means: love of wisdom.
Philosophy is the divine love that Socrates primarily
seeks. Socrates is married and no doubt loves his
wife and loves his students, seeking to teach them an
ascetic philosophy. This makes sense, the Socrates of
Xenophon is more stoic than the Socrates of Plato.

Socrates concludes that friendship is indeed a puzzle.
Perhaps friendship is not so much an academic
endeavor we need to understand but is rather
companionship should enjoy and experience. As true
friends we should seek to bring out the best in
everyone we meet, making everyone we meet
slightly better people because they met us.

Robin Waterfield’s translation of Meno and other dialogues, including
Lysis, is excellent, with great footnotes. Barnes and Nobles also has an
excellent collection of the main Platonic dialogues with the classical
translation by Benjamin Jowett, which we also found free on the
internet in the Gutenberg site. But a problem with many of the free
translations on the internet is they do not include footnotes.
In our videos on the other Platonic dialogues, we included insights from
the Great Courses lectures by the Platonic enthusiast, Professor Michael
Sugrue, although he does not discuss Lysis. When listening to his
lectures, you can understand how some in the ancient world came to
view Socrates and Plato as religious philosophers.

Public domain: Lysis
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https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/plato-socrates-and-the-dialogues
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/lysis.html

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Lysis, Platonic Dialogue on Love and Friendship, Where Old Men Ogle Boys at the Gymnasium

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