SlideShare a Scribd company logo
1 of 20
Not a Geek
 Bachelors in Film and English
 Library Science concentration in Youth
Services and Public Libraries
 For fun:
 Technical theater
 Collage / assemblage
 Beadwork
 Live music / dancing
 Writing
Surrounded by Geeks
 My husband = sysadmin, network engineer, web
performance consultant
 My friends = every possible kind of geek
Osmosis is awesome
Web Services Librarian?
 1998 = Children’s Librarian
 2003 = Adult/Generalist Librarian
 2005 = EXISTENTIAL CAREER PANIC
 2006 = Internet Librarian Conference
 2009 = Branch Manager
 2010 = Web Services Librarian
Web Services Librarian
 Self-taught, entirely
 Need-to-know basis
 Build on what you know
 Play – push the buttons
 Become comfortable with discomfort
(In other words, exactly what we tell patrons)
Expect Change
 The days of staying in the same job / role forever are
long gone
 The Accidental… series
 What's the Alternative? Career Options for Librarians
and Info Pros by Rachel Singer Gordon
Stay Informed
 Social media – friends & colleagues
 Popular magazines & websites, pop culture sites
 Gizmodo, Engadget, CNet, Slashdot, Lifehacker, ZDNet,
Atlantic Cities, ThisIsColossal
 SXSW, TED / TEDx
 Major news sources: New York Times, BBC, CNN, Time, The
Economist Tech Quarterly
Stay Informed
Technical conferences – even if you don’t attend, skimming the
session topics will tell you what’s important / coming
 Tech: Consumer Electronics Show (CES) , Interop (general IT),
Macworld, Velocity (web optimization), Defcon (security),
NANOG (networks), LISA (sysadmin)
 Gaming conventions: E3, Gaming Developers Convention (GDC)
 thenextweb.com/entrepreneur/2014/01/04/10-must-attend-
tech-conferences-2014/
Don’t be afraid
of the tech
Even if you’re afraid
of the tech
We are more than our
fears
Be Realistic
Start with
current
strengths
& skills
Find directions
in which to
grow
Do the job,
push yourself
Don’t force
yourself to be
what you’re
not
Focus on your
strongest, most
passionate
interests
Stay aware of
what else is out
there
Be Realistic
 Sometimes, it’s a long slow slog
 Sometimes, you use controlled bursts of energy
 Sometimes, you need to just jump
Engage All of Your Interests
 What skills have you learned in non-work
environments that might be useful for your work?
 What information and resolution about the world
have you gotten from all of your interests?
 How can you bring all this to your career?
List!
 What is your current role at work?
 What do you enjoy most about it?
 What are your current interests, inside and
outside of work?
 What skills have these interests fostered?
 List at least 5 things that you’ve discovered
during this conference.
(Ideas, technologies, job titles, anything)
Interact!
 Pair up and exchange notes.
 Read the other person’s lists (to yourself).
 Does anything jump out at you – possible
future roles, or themes / patterns?
 Tell each other what you see. Any surprises?
Brainstorm!
 Based on your lists and your partner’s
feedback, what possibilities do you see?
 Pick one and list what you need to follow
up on it: training, research, money, time.
 Is it doable – if not now, then in the next
few years?
Thank you!
Jennifer Koerber
jennifer.koerber@gmail.com
Web Services Librarian
Boston Public Library
Librarian, Trainer, Presenter
www.jenniferkoerber.com/about/

More Related Content

What's hot

Design & technology plenary
Design & technology plenaryDesign & technology plenary
Design & technology plenary
designpractice
 
Top 10 Tips for Online Learning
Top 10 Tips for Online LearningTop 10 Tips for Online Learning
Top 10 Tips for Online Learning
Lynn Wietecha
 

What's hot (20)

LSE SADL Workshop 2 2014 Academic Practices: reading and research
LSE SADL Workshop 2 2014 Academic Practices: reading and researchLSE SADL Workshop 2 2014 Academic Practices: reading and research
LSE SADL Workshop 2 2014 Academic Practices: reading and research
 
LSE SADL Workshop 4 2014-15
LSE SADL Workshop 4 2014-15LSE SADL Workshop 4 2014-15
LSE SADL Workshop 4 2014-15
 
LSE SADL Workshop 1 2014
LSE SADL Workshop 1 2014LSE SADL Workshop 1 2014
LSE SADL Workshop 1 2014
 
Blogging and The Learning Professional
Blogging and The Learning ProfessionalBlogging and The Learning Professional
Blogging and The Learning Professional
 
Hearing Impairment and Computing - AbilityNet webinar 7 July 2015
Hearing Impairment and Computing - AbilityNet webinar 7 July 2015Hearing Impairment and Computing - AbilityNet webinar 7 July 2015
Hearing Impairment and Computing - AbilityNet webinar 7 July 2015
 
How to Control Your Computer with Your Voice April 2015
How to Control Your Computer with Your Voice April 2015How to Control Your Computer with Your Voice April 2015
How to Control Your Computer with Your Voice April 2015
 
Assistive Technology use and effectiveness in higher education and the workplace
Assistive Technology use and effectiveness in higher education and the workplaceAssistive Technology use and effectiveness in higher education and the workplace
Assistive Technology use and effectiveness in higher education and the workplace
 
TTAC Book Study Week 2
TTAC Book Study Week 2TTAC Book Study Week 2
TTAC Book Study Week 2
 
Accessibility: Are UX-perienced? Understanding User Needs for an Accessible U...
Accessibility: Are UX-perienced? Understanding User Needs for an Accessible U...Accessibility: Are UX-perienced? Understanding User Needs for an Accessible U...
Accessibility: Are UX-perienced? Understanding User Needs for an Accessible U...
 
Teaching with Tablets and Pads
Teaching with Tablets and PadsTeaching with Tablets and Pads
Teaching with Tablets and Pads
 
Dangerously Irrelevant 2007 Education Blogosphere Survey
Dangerously Irrelevant 2007 Education Blogosphere SurveyDangerously Irrelevant 2007 Education Blogosphere Survey
Dangerously Irrelevant 2007 Education Blogosphere Survey
 
UX + Your Team = Accessibility
UX + Your Team = AccessibilityUX + Your Team = Accessibility
UX + Your Team = Accessibility
 
Design & technology plenary
Design & technology plenaryDesign & technology plenary
Design & technology plenary
 
Using iPads for Language Learning
Using iPads for Language LearningUsing iPads for Language Learning
Using iPads for Language Learning
 
Top 10 Tips for Online Learning
Top 10 Tips for Online LearningTop 10 Tips for Online Learning
Top 10 Tips for Online Learning
 
Atia 2014 final
Atia 2014 finalAtia 2014 final
Atia 2014 final
 
Flipped Literacy Strategies
Flipped Literacy StrategiesFlipped Literacy Strategies
Flipped Literacy Strategies
 
Assistive Technology Reading and Writing Tools
Assistive Technology Reading and Writing ToolsAssistive Technology Reading and Writing Tools
Assistive Technology Reading and Writing Tools
 
WSC Kickoff
WSC KickoffWSC Kickoff
WSC Kickoff
 
Dyslexia and Digital Design: websites, apps and more, November 2014
Dyslexia and Digital Design: websites, apps and more, November 2014Dyslexia and Digital Design: websites, apps and more, November 2014
Dyslexia and Digital Design: websites, apps and more, November 2014
 

Viewers also liked

Project 1
Project 1Project 1
Project 1
umtkrc
 
TEXTO EXPOSITIVO TEXTO INSTRUCTIVO
TEXTO  EXPOSITIVO TEXTO  INSTRUCTIVOTEXTO  EXPOSITIVO TEXTO  INSTRUCTIVO
TEXTO EXPOSITIVO TEXTO INSTRUCTIVO
Sandra Marquez
 

Viewers also liked (17)

Presentatie volksuniversiteit amtelland 290815 cursus beleggen
Presentatie volksuniversiteit amtelland 290815 cursus beleggenPresentatie volksuniversiteit amtelland 290815 cursus beleggen
Presentatie volksuniversiteit amtelland 290815 cursus beleggen
 
Project 1
Project 1Project 1
Project 1
 
Teach Them Where They Are: "Learning for Life Online" at the Boston Public Li...
Teach Them Where They Are: "Learning for Life Online" at the Boston Public Li...Teach Them Where They Are: "Learning for Life Online" at the Boston Public Li...
Teach Them Where They Are: "Learning for Life Online" at the Boston Public Li...
 
Caminho da prósperidade
Caminho da prósperidadeCaminho da prósperidade
Caminho da prósperidade
 
Intellectual capital organization
Intellectual capital organizationIntellectual capital organization
Intellectual capital organization
 
A reforma
A reformaA reforma
A reforma
 
Jessus o caminho
Jessus o caminhoJessus o caminho
Jessus o caminho
 
From Zero to Iterators: Building and Extending the Iterator Hierarchy in a Mo...
From Zero to Iterators: Building and Extending the Iterator Hierarchy in a Mo...From Zero to Iterators: Building and Extending the Iterator Hierarchy in a Mo...
From Zero to Iterators: Building and Extending the Iterator Hierarchy in a Mo...
 
Laporan pembangunan bandar mapan (tugasan 12)
Laporan pembangunan bandar mapan (tugasan 12)Laporan pembangunan bandar mapan (tugasan 12)
Laporan pembangunan bandar mapan (tugasan 12)
 
Measuring and Managing Team Synergy resulting in improved Collaboration and I...
Measuring and Managing Team Synergy resulting in improved Collaboration and I...Measuring and Managing Team Synergy resulting in improved Collaboration and I...
Measuring and Managing Team Synergy resulting in improved Collaboration and I...
 
Brownfields Case Studies
Brownfields Case Studies Brownfields Case Studies
Brownfields Case Studies
 
XIII conf CEPAL de la Mujer, Montevideo octubre 2016.
XIII conf CEPAL de la Mujer, Montevideo octubre 2016. XIII conf CEPAL de la Mujer, Montevideo octubre 2016.
XIII conf CEPAL de la Mujer, Montevideo octubre 2016.
 
Kuinka onnistua koulurakennuksen peruskorjauksessa? Elisa Koskinen
Kuinka onnistua koulurakennuksen peruskorjauksessa? Elisa KoskinenKuinka onnistua koulurakennuksen peruskorjauksessa? Elisa Koskinen
Kuinka onnistua koulurakennuksen peruskorjauksessa? Elisa Koskinen
 
Medidata Customer Only Event - Global Symposium Highlights
Medidata Customer Only Event - Global Symposium HighlightsMedidata Customer Only Event - Global Symposium Highlights
Medidata Customer Only Event - Global Symposium Highlights
 
Solar tree ppt
Solar tree pptSolar tree ppt
Solar tree ppt
 
Global climatic changes and its impact
Global climatic changes and its impactGlobal climatic changes and its impact
Global climatic changes and its impact
 
TEXTO EXPOSITIVO TEXTO INSTRUCTIVO
TEXTO  EXPOSITIVO TEXTO  INSTRUCTIVOTEXTO  EXPOSITIVO TEXTO  INSTRUCTIVO
TEXTO EXPOSITIVO TEXTO INSTRUCTIVO
 

Similar to Hacking the Librarian: Evolving Personal & Career Development

Sjsu california lafinal
Sjsu california lafinalSjsu california lafinal
Sjsu california lafinal
Stephen Abram
 
Podcasting for the PC
Podcasting for the PCPodcasting for the PC
Podcasting for the PC
Glenn Wiebe
 
La county librariesaug8-2012
La county librariesaug8-2012La county librariesaug8-2012
La county librariesaug8-2012
Stephen Abram
 

Similar to Hacking the Librarian: Evolving Personal & Career Development (20)

What are the kinds of questions I need to prepare for if I am having an inter...
What are the kinds of questions I need to prepare for if I am having an inter...What are the kinds of questions I need to prepare for if I am having an inter...
What are the kinds of questions I need to prepare for if I am having an inter...
 
RED ACADEMY: MAKE YOUR MARK
RED ACADEMY: MAKE YOUR MARKRED ACADEMY: MAKE YOUR MARK
RED ACADEMY: MAKE YOUR MARK
 
Jackson hole2012
Jackson hole2012Jackson hole2012
Jackson hole2012
 
Library shifts
Library shiftsLibrary shifts
Library shifts
 
Coffeenar Presentation Networking
Coffeenar Presentation NetworkingCoffeenar Presentation Networking
Coffeenar Presentation Networking
 
Nvpl
NvplNvpl
Nvpl
 
Amber wildelecture2012
Amber wildelecture2012Amber wildelecture2012
Amber wildelecture2012
 
Software for women
Software for womenSoftware for women
Software for women
 
Phoenix pl2012
Phoenix pl2012Phoenix pl2012
Phoenix pl2012
 
Azla
AzlaAzla
Azla
 
Orla2012
Orla2012Orla2012
Orla2012
 
Pimp Your Post - Tips and Tricks for Jazzing up Intro Posts in Online courses
Pimp Your Post - Tips and Tricks for Jazzing up Intro Posts in Online coursesPimp Your Post - Tips and Tricks for Jazzing up Intro Posts in Online courses
Pimp Your Post - Tips and Tricks for Jazzing up Intro Posts in Online courses
 
Podcasting: Telling your school's story
Podcasting: Telling your school's storyPodcasting: Telling your school's story
Podcasting: Telling your school's story
 
How to Ask for What You Want
How to Ask for What You WantHow to Ask for What You Want
How to Ask for What You Want
 
Sjsu california lafinal
Sjsu california lafinalSjsu california lafinal
Sjsu california lafinal
 
Burlington pl
Burlington plBurlington pl
Burlington pl
 
What is research?
What is research?What is research?
What is research?
 
Podcasting for the PC
Podcasting for the PCPodcasting for the PC
Podcasting for the PC
 
La county librariesaug8-2012
La county librariesaug8-2012La county librariesaug8-2012
La county librariesaug8-2012
 
3. ncce 2019 micro:bit make code slidedeck
3. ncce 2019 micro:bit make code slidedeck3. ncce 2019 micro:bit make code slidedeck
3. ncce 2019 micro:bit make code slidedeck
 

More from Jennifer Koerber

More from Jennifer Koerber (9)

Bring Back the Funny: Humor in the Library
Bring Back the Funny: Humor in the LibraryBring Back the Funny: Humor in the Library
Bring Back the Funny: Humor in the Library
 
Bring Back the Funny on NCompass Live
Bring Back the Funny on NCompass LiveBring Back the Funny on NCompass Live
Bring Back the Funny on NCompass Live
 
Living in the Future: Libraries Supporting the Next Wave of Cultural Evolution
Living in the Future: Libraries Supporting the Next Wave of Cultural EvolutionLiving in the Future: Libraries Supporting the Next Wave of Cultural Evolution
Living in the Future: Libraries Supporting the Next Wave of Cultural Evolution
 
Bring Back the Funny at the Library
Bring Back the Funny at the LibraryBring Back the Funny at the Library
Bring Back the Funny at the Library
 
Building a Good Idea Into a Great Workshop
Building a Good Idea Into a Great WorkshopBuilding a Good Idea Into a Great Workshop
Building a Good Idea Into a Great Workshop
 
Developing Patron Personas - IL2010
Developing Patron Personas - IL2010Developing Patron Personas - IL2010
Developing Patron Personas - IL2010
 
Managing Online Identity - IL2010
Managing Online Identity - IL2010Managing Online Identity - IL2010
Managing Online Identity - IL2010
 
Patron Learning Program - IL2010
Patron Learning Program - IL2010Patron Learning Program - IL2010
Patron Learning Program - IL2010
 
Managing Online Life
Managing Online LifeManaging Online Life
Managing Online Life
 

Recently uploaded

call Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Mor
call Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Morcall Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Mor
call Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Mor
vikas rana
 

Recently uploaded (15)

(Anamika) VIP Call Girls Navi Mumbai Call Now 8250077686 Navi Mumbai Escorts ...
(Anamika) VIP Call Girls Navi Mumbai Call Now 8250077686 Navi Mumbai Escorts ...(Anamika) VIP Call Girls Navi Mumbai Call Now 8250077686 Navi Mumbai Escorts ...
(Anamika) VIP Call Girls Navi Mumbai Call Now 8250077686 Navi Mumbai Escorts ...
 
The Selfspace Journal Preview by Mindbrush
The Selfspace Journal Preview by MindbrushThe Selfspace Journal Preview by Mindbrush
The Selfspace Journal Preview by Mindbrush
 
Pokemon Go... Unraveling the Conspiracy Theory
Pokemon Go... Unraveling the Conspiracy TheoryPokemon Go... Unraveling the Conspiracy Theory
Pokemon Go... Unraveling the Conspiracy Theory
 
9892124323, Call Girls in mumbai, Vashi Call Girls , Kurla Call girls
9892124323, Call Girls in mumbai, Vashi Call Girls , Kurla Call girls9892124323, Call Girls in mumbai, Vashi Call Girls , Kurla Call girls
9892124323, Call Girls in mumbai, Vashi Call Girls , Kurla Call girls
 
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Mukherjee Nagar (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Mukherjee Nagar (Delhi)2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Mukherjee Nagar (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Mukherjee Nagar (Delhi)
 
WOMEN EMPOWERMENT women empowerment.pptx
WOMEN EMPOWERMENT women empowerment.pptxWOMEN EMPOWERMENT women empowerment.pptx
WOMEN EMPOWERMENT women empowerment.pptx
 
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Dashrath Puri (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Dashrath Puri (Delhi)2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Dashrath Puri (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Dashrath Puri (Delhi)
 
8377087607 Full Enjoy @24/7-CLEAN-Call Girls In Chhatarpur,
8377087607 Full Enjoy @24/7-CLEAN-Call Girls In Chhatarpur,8377087607 Full Enjoy @24/7-CLEAN-Call Girls In Chhatarpur,
8377087607 Full Enjoy @24/7-CLEAN-Call Girls In Chhatarpur,
 
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Jasola (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Jasola (Delhi)2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Jasola (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Jasola (Delhi)
 
call Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Mor
call Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Morcall Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Mor
call Now 9811711561 Cash Payment乂 Call Girls in Dwarka Mor
 
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Palam (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Palam (Delhi)2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Palam (Delhi)
2k Shots ≽ 9205541914 ≼ Call Girls In Palam (Delhi)
 
LC_YouSaidYes_NewBelieverBookletDone.pdf
LC_YouSaidYes_NewBelieverBookletDone.pdfLC_YouSaidYes_NewBelieverBookletDone.pdf
LC_YouSaidYes_NewBelieverBookletDone.pdf
 
Top Rated Pune Call Girls Tingre Nagar ⟟ 6297143586 ⟟ Call Me For Genuine Se...
Top Rated  Pune Call Girls Tingre Nagar ⟟ 6297143586 ⟟ Call Me For Genuine Se...Top Rated  Pune Call Girls Tingre Nagar ⟟ 6297143586 ⟟ Call Me For Genuine Se...
Top Rated Pune Call Girls Tingre Nagar ⟟ 6297143586 ⟟ Call Me For Genuine Se...
 
$ Love Spells^ 💎 (310) 882-6330 in West Virginia, WV | Psychic Reading Best B...
$ Love Spells^ 💎 (310) 882-6330 in West Virginia, WV | Psychic Reading Best B...$ Love Spells^ 💎 (310) 882-6330 in West Virginia, WV | Psychic Reading Best B...
$ Love Spells^ 💎 (310) 882-6330 in West Virginia, WV | Psychic Reading Best B...
 
(Aarini) Russian Call Girls Surat Call Now 8250077686 Surat Escorts 24x7
(Aarini) Russian Call Girls Surat Call Now 8250077686 Surat Escorts 24x7(Aarini) Russian Call Girls Surat Call Now 8250077686 Surat Escorts 24x7
(Aarini) Russian Call Girls Surat Call Now 8250077686 Surat Escorts 24x7
 

Hacking the Librarian: Evolving Personal & Career Development

  • 1.
  • 2. Not a Geek  Bachelors in Film and English  Library Science concentration in Youth Services and Public Libraries  For fun:  Technical theater  Collage / assemblage  Beadwork  Live music / dancing  Writing
  • 3. Surrounded by Geeks  My husband = sysadmin, network engineer, web performance consultant  My friends = every possible kind of geek Osmosis is awesome
  • 4. Web Services Librarian?  1998 = Children’s Librarian  2003 = Adult/Generalist Librarian  2005 = EXISTENTIAL CAREER PANIC  2006 = Internet Librarian Conference  2009 = Branch Manager  2010 = Web Services Librarian
  • 5. Web Services Librarian  Self-taught, entirely  Need-to-know basis  Build on what you know  Play – push the buttons  Become comfortable with discomfort (In other words, exactly what we tell patrons)
  • 6. Expect Change  The days of staying in the same job / role forever are long gone  The Accidental… series  What's the Alternative? Career Options for Librarians and Info Pros by Rachel Singer Gordon
  • 7. Stay Informed  Social media – friends & colleagues  Popular magazines & websites, pop culture sites  Gizmodo, Engadget, CNet, Slashdot, Lifehacker, ZDNet, Atlantic Cities, ThisIsColossal  SXSW, TED / TEDx  Major news sources: New York Times, BBC, CNN, Time, The Economist Tech Quarterly
  • 8. Stay Informed Technical conferences – even if you don’t attend, skimming the session topics will tell you what’s important / coming  Tech: Consumer Electronics Show (CES) , Interop (general IT), Macworld, Velocity (web optimization), Defcon (security), NANOG (networks), LISA (sysadmin)  Gaming conventions: E3, Gaming Developers Convention (GDC)  thenextweb.com/entrepreneur/2014/01/04/10-must-attend- tech-conferences-2014/
  • 10. Even if you’re afraid of the tech
  • 11. We are more than our fears
  • 12. Be Realistic Start with current strengths & skills Find directions in which to grow Do the job, push yourself Don’t force yourself to be what you’re not Focus on your strongest, most passionate interests Stay aware of what else is out there
  • 13. Be Realistic  Sometimes, it’s a long slow slog  Sometimes, you use controlled bursts of energy  Sometimes, you need to just jump
  • 14. Engage All of Your Interests  What skills have you learned in non-work environments that might be useful for your work?  What information and resolution about the world have you gotten from all of your interests?  How can you bring all this to your career?
  • 15.
  • 16. List!  What is your current role at work?  What do you enjoy most about it?  What are your current interests, inside and outside of work?  What skills have these interests fostered?  List at least 5 things that you’ve discovered during this conference. (Ideas, technologies, job titles, anything)
  • 17. Interact!  Pair up and exchange notes.  Read the other person’s lists (to yourself).  Does anything jump out at you – possible future roles, or themes / patterns?  Tell each other what you see. Any surprises?
  • 18. Brainstorm!  Based on your lists and your partner’s feedback, what possibilities do you see?  Pick one and list what you need to follow up on it: training, research, money, time.  Is it doable – if not now, then in the next few years?
  • 19.
  • 20. Thank you! Jennifer Koerber jennifer.koerber@gmail.com Web Services Librarian Boston Public Library Librarian, Trainer, Presenter www.jenniferkoerber.com/about/

Editor's Notes

  1. Expect the change. You can’t totally prepare for it, but if you expect it, you’ve got a better shot at coping with it.
  2. You might have heard at this conference things like – every librarian needs to know how to code. I disagree. I will never be a coder – no interest in diving that deep, not so good at debugging, Terminal makes me cringe.
  3. Acknowledge your fears and rise to them
  4. Specializing in content management, workflow, user experience, etc.Focus on your strongest, most interested areas, but stay aware of what else is out there. Just as true for non-tech: I was always better at reference than RA.