“If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.” Jesus, Gospel of Thomas Do you have an innate desire to make people happy? And does that desire at times cause you to at hold back the truth, out of fear of perhaps hurting others and yourself? Carm Huntress is the CEO of RxReview, a company solving a big problem with big data - overspending on prescription drugs. The company started in January 2012 and is growing beyond it’s 11 employees. Carm realizes his nature as a people pleaser affects his leadership in detrimental ways. In this episode, Jerry and Carm unpack what it means to be fierce, and what’s behind the desire to make people happy. It’s a conversation that will leave you asking: “What if I led from place knew where i knew I was good and also know there are things I want to do better?” Enjoy the conversation... Q’s What if you led from a place in which you knew you were good and knew the things you wanted to do better?

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Welcome to the Reboot podcast. I'm Dan Putt, one of the partners here at Reboot and I could not
be more excited about this conversation. We're here to showcase the heart and soul of authentic
leadership, to inspire more open conversations around what we consider the most important part
of entrepreneurship, the emotional struggle and hopefully we open up some hearts along the way.
We are extremely grateful that you have taken the time to be with us and look forward to this
journey ahead with you. Now, on with our conversation.
Being CEO of a startup is really hard. It's lonely, there's long hours, there's constant demands
and there's no manual. This is why Jerry helped create the CEO boot camp. Join us February
25th through March 1st at our 2015 Winter CEO Boot camp in Winter Park, Colorado. You'll
connect with 20 other startup leaders and learn what it means to be a leader. For more
information, go to reboot.io/boot camps.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring
forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." That quote comes from
Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas. Do you have an innate desire to make people happy and does that
desire at times cause you to hold back the truth perhaps out of fear of hurting others and even
yourself? Carm Huntress is CEO of RxRevu, a company solving a big problem with big data,
overspending on prescription medication.
The company started just in January 2012 and is already growing beyond its 11 employees. Carm
realizes his nature as a people-pleaser affects his leadership in detrimental ways. In the episode,
Jerry and Carm unpack what it means to be fierce and what's behind the desire to make people
happy. It's a conversation that will leave you asking, "What if I led from a place where I knew I
was good and yet there were also things I want to do better?" Enjoy the conversation.
Jerry Colonna: Hey Carm, how are you?
Carm Huntress: I'm good Jerry, how are you?
Jerry Colonna: I'm good, I'm good, I'm really good. Hey listen before we get started, why
don't you tell me a little bit more about the company? The company name,
what do you do, no pitching now, though.
Carm Huntress: No pitching, I will do my best not to pitch.
Jerry Colonna: [Laughs] I know it's an impossible task.
Carm Huntress: It's an impossible thing. So, again I'm Carm Huntress, I am the CEO of
RxRevu. We are a company that is about 18-20 months old now and we are
solving one of the biggest problems in healthcare which is all the waste in
prescription drugs. U.S. overspends by about $150 billion on prescription
drugs because there is no transparency and patients can't understand their
options and physicians don't really know what's best to prescribe. We're a big
data company that's solving that problem. So, we've curetted millions of
clinical articles around the efficacy of different medications, we have 12

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different cost-saving solutions that we can apply and a lot of personalised
factors whether it would be your age, gender, weight, ethnicity, even your
genetics matter to us. So, we built an algorithm, if you want to call it that but
we call it "prescription optimization" so we can help patients and providers
find the most effective drug at the lowest possible cost and do it at the point of
care or a patient can do it through the web or through their mobile phone.
That's what we do.
Jerry Colonna: Good, good.
Carm Huntress: I'm the CEO and one of the founders.
Jerry Colonna: How old is the company?
Carm Huntress: We started in January of last year so we've almost gotten to the two-year
mark. So, it's been a real blast. I've never been in a company that's grown so
dramatically in such a short period of time. We actually closed our initial
funding in March of this year and I was sitting in a co-work space by myself
in a cube and now I have suite with 11 people in it.
Jerry Colonna: It sounds like you're killing it.
Carm Huntress: We are. I mean we're...
Jerry Colonna: [Laughs] I have to tease you; it's a bit of a joke I play with clients because
often time it's just like, "Yeah how you doing?" "Oh, we're killing it, we're
killing it."
Carm Huntress: We're killing it and it's not really a great choice of words frankly but we're
having a lot fun, how about I put it that way? We've been lucky in that we've
assembled a really fantastic team of people to do this and we were I think
unique and lucky because we're going out to solve this huge problem in the
midst of healthcare going through this huge remake and we're doing good
which often is something you don't get to say about your startup. It's
sometimes hard to justify that doing good piece and we feel like we're doing
that so that's incredibly gratifying.
Jerry Colonna: That's great. So, tell me what made you feel like you'd want to reach out and
have a conversation?
Carm Huntress: So many things. I mean I think there's this underlying thing that has come that
has come, I'm very somatic or I think somatically around my work and life.
There's a story I'd love to share at some point but there's something about
living in the truth that in everything I do, it keeps coming back to that and
really living what I would call a 'conscious life'. It's something that since right
before I started RxRevu, I came to some conclusions about myself. I'm 34

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now and back in 2012 right before we moved to Denver, Colorado and I
started RxRevu, I actually went on a trip with my wife. We travelled for six
months around the world and we did one of those things where I shut
everything off and we grabbed backpacks and we disappeared.
Jerry Colonna: Oh, wow.
Carm Huntress: We went to 13 different countries and we just headed west and we didn't stop
for six months. It was really amazing, a once-in-a-lifetime experience. We
didn't have kids and it was a great, great, fantastic time. But it was this huge
time of self-reflection for me and I came to a couple of places where the first
thing I asked myself is, I said, "Man, I have worked really hard for the last
decade and I really don't feel successful." You know, both monetarily as well
as just in general and I'm like, "Why have I worked so hard?" I've been this
entrepreneur and I've been in a bunch of startups and I've raised capital and I
don't feel successful. I feel like a failure. I started to ask why. You know why?
During that six months I read two really important books; one's called 'The
Business of Happiness' and the other one was 'Talent is Overrated'. Do you
know those books?
Jerry Colonna: Yeah, I do.
Carm Huntress: Yeah and what came back was that I read those books and I realized a couple
of things; I think the first is that the book 'Talent is Overrated' is all about the
top-performers in the world really work on their weaknesses. They know their
weaknesses and they know what they're doing wrong and they constantly try
to improve upon them and stretch. 'The Business of Happiness' is really about
finding out what you really want and I realized I hadn't worked on either of
those things for almost a decade. So, I really made a commitment to myself as
I came off this huge trip and I really sat down and thought about what I
wanted to do and how I wanted to do it and it became a conscious exercise.
But I realized that it's all about finding that truth and how to be better within
that truth. I read one of your blog posts and I loved this is "What is being said
that's not being said and what am I hearing that I'm not listening to?" Man,
when you're running a startup, that's about the most important thing. So, I
don't know, that's an area that I really want to dive into and I want to get better
at.
Jerry Colonna: Better at the "being fierce." That quote comes from the blog post, 'Being
Fierce' and it's what I refer to the capacity to really be fully authentic, fully
present as manifested in both speaking clearly and authentically and from
your truest point and hearing and listening from that same space.
Carm Huntress: Yeah. Do you find this is one of the – I mean, in terms of being good leaders
and building great companies, would you say this is a defining quality?

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Jerry Colonna: Yes. I would say it’s a defining – the capacity to be fierce is a defining
quality. The tagline I often play with is "To be fierce not ferocious." It’s not
about aggression, it’s about presence, it’s about authenticity. The quality of
being fierce I think is essential in good leadership partially because it calms
the whole organizational system down. For example, when we’re fierce with
the truth, we give our employees and our colleagues the opportunity and the
space for themselves to be fierce with the truth. So a good example that is, the
truth is we’re not going to hit the product deadline, we all know it. But too
often, we participate in a kind of "collective delusion" and pretend that we
will. What it kind of does over time is, not only does it undermine a sense of
safety and security on the individual basis, but it also destroys trust. So, to
answer your question more briefly, yes, it’s the defining characteristic of
leadership and conversely, the avoidance of difficult conversations, the
avoidance of dealing with reality or what I often refer to as a delusion because
these twinned phenomena are defining characteristics of poor leadership or
typical leadership. It typically is routed in the fear associated in actually
saying what needs to be said or hearing what is being said or ensuring that
what you are saying is in fact heard and taken in.
Carm Huntress: Why do you think it’s so hard? I have some theories about myself and why I
think it’s hard but, why do you think people get stuck in it? Why isn’t it
something that just naturally happens? Is it the human condition that gets in
the way or what’s your viewpoint on that?
Jerry Colonna: I think that – so from a Buddha's perspective, we are all born basically good.
We’re all born with what the Buddha taught was 'Buddha Nature' which is our
essential goodness as a human being. Over time, that gets obscured and our
understanding that we’re fundamentally loveable gets obscured and becomes
more and more disconnected from that. It may be because of the situations in
which we grow up in or family of origin challenges, or society challenges,
growing up in a war, growing up in poverty, make access to that incredibly
difficult. Since the access to that fundamental truth that we’re fundamentally
good is difficult, what then sets in as part of the human condition is another
phenomenon which is that we doubt whether or not we’re loveable. The
corollary to that or the way that that doubt often manifests is that we’re afraid
that if I say something to you, you will either get aggressive with me, you will
get violent with me, or in some way you’ll feel angry towards me and I will
end up being unloved, abandoned, hurt. We do a little bit of a mind trick on
ourselves because what we tell ourselves is that I am protecting you from the
truth when really what we are doing is we are protecting ourselves from the
possible negative reaction that you might have.
Carm Huntress: Mm-hmm.
Jerry Colonna: The antidote to that is to lean into it. Now, so for me I think it’s routed in – I
often jokingly quote Yoda who said, "Two emotions there are: Love and Fear

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and it’s our pursuit of love that causes us to be afraid." Or our fear that we
won’t have love that drives so much of our behavior. So that’s my theory but
I’m – let’s coach, okay.
Carm Huntress: [Laughs]
Jerry Colonna: Rather than me teaching – because let me tell you my ego loves when I get
asked to just talk like that. What is it for you? What stops you from saying
what’s true?
Carm Huntress: Well, I think it’s more than one thing. I think one of the things that serves me
very well and I picked it up as a skill but it’s also a deficit in some respects is
that I like to make people happy. I have this innate desire to – I'm very
empathetic and I can use it as a thing to help me because it helps me find out
what people want and what people need and support them and I am a big
believer in service leadership or servant leadership. I can use that as a skill but
in the same sense it’s a deficit and I think there is also this part of me that
really tells a story too much. Instead of just saying the truth, you get in this
place where you start telling yourself stories and you start saying, well if I say
that, this person is gonna say this. Guess what, I have never been right. The
story, the narrative that always plays out in my head is always wrong. I think
to your point, my sensation is that’s where I get most stuck, in being able to
say that truth to somebody and that I ultimately fear that I am letting them
down and not making them happy. But as you say, there’s some truth in that
and that even for myself, it’s more fear of them telling me that I made them
unhappy. That’s hard, that’s really hard.
Jerry Colonna: Notice, notice Carm, the two sides of that. There is the altruistic side, the wish
to truly make somebody happy and then there is the fear-based, almost
neurotic side of it. Both are there behind that empathy, behind that wish to
please.
Carm Huntress: Yeah. But why – so when you look at those two things, is it, in part sort of
saying, "I can’t make this person happy. It’s not my job." Or is it saying, "I
just need to love myself and it’s gonna be okay and I just need to say the truth
and let it be and I’m okay."
Jerry Colonna: If you were in touch with your fundamental goodness, if you could truly feel
that you are worthy of love or worthy regardless of what you did, pleasing
people or not pleasing people, hurting people or not hurting people; if you
were able to be in touch with that fundamental sense of self, what would be
the answer to your own question?
Carm Huntress: The sensation I get is that I just have to have – the word that came to mind
was actually "Faith."

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Jerry Colonna: God bless you.
Carm Huntress: I don’t know how to expand on that but that’s the word that resonated with me
when you asked the question.
Jerry Colonna: Yeah. See, I love the fact that you said "The Sensation" and then the word.
See, "The sensation" implies it was in your body, not in your mind which is a
kind of an interesting place for thoughts; right?
Carm Huntress: [Laughs] Right.
Jerry Colonna: The word implies the feeling, a kind of intuitive knowing and not a story;
right? Stories tend to have lots of sentences –
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: – but when the neon lights flick on and you see that word or feel that word in
your body, to me I think you’re touching to truth.
Carm Huntress: The word feels true when I say it.
Jerry Colonna: Yeah.
Carm Huntress: Even though I don’t quite understand it –
Jerry Colonna: Yes.
Carm Huntress: – [Laughs] which is just about the weirdest sensation ever.
Jerry Colonna: Amen, yes.
Carm Huntress: Yeah. So tell me more what –
Jerry Colonna: Oh, that’s a good coaching – that’s a good coaching question.
Carm Huntress: [Laughs]
Jerry Colonna: Good coaching question. That’s a nice coaching prompt. I like that, "Tell me
more." So, when we experience something that feels bodily true without a lot
of explanation about it, to my mind it means that we’ve gotten past the
interpreter of our experience also known as our mind. The interpreter, the
translator of all of the world which happens to be our mind and us; whatever
"Us" is. This meat bag –
Carm Huntress: [Laughs]

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Jerry Colonna: – known as Jerry or Carm; right?
Carm Huntress: Right.
Jerry Colonna: When we remove the mediator and we have a direct experience, it tends not to
come with a lot of mythology, a lot of myth-making. What’s interesting to me
is that the myth-making tends to occur after the fact. We have an experience;
it’s so uncomfortable that we can’t explain it, so then we create a story around
it.
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: I’m recalling a moment for myself when I was sitting in meditation one
morning, and I was overwhelmed with a sense of anxiety. And it was curious,
because there was literally nothing happening to produce that feeling. I was
just anxious and fortunately, the voice of Pema Chödrön, a Buddhist nun,
popped into my head and I heard her saying to me as if I was a dog, "Sit,
staaaay."
Carm Huntress: [Laughs]
Jerry Colonna: Yeah, it was brilliant.
Carm Huntress: Yeah, it is.
Jerry Colonna: I stayed with it and then I asked myself, "What does that anxiety smell like?"
which is just a bizarre question because what I was trying to do, was stop my
mind from creating a story because I could feel my mind doing this, "Oh, I’m
anxious. Oh, what should I be anxious about? Oh, my children! Let me think
about them." And the train would be – and I stopped it, in that moment and for
the briefest of moments, I realized that the feeling oftentimes precedes the
myth, or the story. Which means I should not trust those thoughts. [Laughs]
Carm Huntress: Well, it’s that rationalization that we all try to do.
Jerry Colonna: Exactly, and it’s post-facto rationalization.
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: Right? I got this, and then all of a sudden, this is happening.
Carm Huntress: But is it then the purpose to leave it and just feel it? Or learn from it and
understand it?

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Jerry Colonna: What just happened with you? What just happened with you? What feeling do
you have when you say, "but – but is the purpose?" What’s the feeling? Why
do you want to know?
Carm Huntress: All right [Sigh] I want to be better.
Jerry Colonna: What makes you think you’re not good enough now? See how quick?
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: A nanosecond like it is? Here we are, in this moment, feeling, laughing,
joking about the felt sense and immediately the mind jumps in and it says,
"But, but is the purpose –"
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: And then I call your attention to the feeling behind the question without even
answering the question because if I answer the question Carm, I’m going to
strengthen the story.
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: Even if I denied it, even if I told you something negative, "No, that’s not it,"
what I would do is continue to reinforce the story-making, which is actually
an attempt to get away from the feeling. The feeling is, "I’m trying to be
better. I’m trying to improve." From what state are you trying to improve?
From what place are you trying to be better? What if you led to go back to
being CEO of this company? What if you led not from a place of continually
trying to improve yourself, but led from a place where you knew that you
were good and you also knew that there were things that you wanted to do
better?
Carm Huntress: It’s a powerful place.
Jerry Colonna: I wonder how the employees would react if you led from a place of faith.
Faith was a powerful word, my friend because what faith implies is "knowing
without knowing," right? Knowing despite the lack of evidence. That’s what
faith means; believing despite the lack of evidence. What if you led from a
place of faith in yourself and the purpose and the mission without having the
conceptual evidence that you’re right or good enough?
Carm Huntress: [Laughs] So, the thing I feel is wow, that’s really hard.
Jerry Colonna: Mm-hmm.

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Carm Huntress: That’s really, really hard, because it’s letting go of all that rationalization and
trying to –
Jerry Colonna: Mm-hmm or letting go of the fear that you use the rationalization to push
away.
Carm Huntress: Yeah. You know, it’s – [Sigh] coming from that place is – it feels enlightened
to me.
Jerry Colonna: Ah.
Carm Huntress: But it’s [Laughs] you know, you’re – I don’t want to say you’re messing with
me, Jerry but –
Jerry Colonna: [Laughs]
Carm Huntress: – you’re messing with me. [Laughter] But it’s this – you know what I come
back to is, how challenging is this, as a leader where we have to make a
thousand decisions a day, we have to have a dozen different conversations,
and to go into those conversations and those moments of such truth, and a
place of faith is – it’s inspiring. I’ll give you that, but I find it –
Jerry Colonna: Hard.
Carm Huntress: Yeah, because you want to, you know, it’s kind of reconciling, sort of, the
pieces of me to say, "Well, we need to make sense of these things and we
need to rationalize these things and we need to understand the data behind
these things and to make good decisions." Maybe you’re not necessarily
talking about that specifically, maybe you are or maybe it’s more about the
way in which I lead and the way in which I talk to people and what resonates
with me is that idea of space.
Jerry Colonna: Yes.
Carm Huntress: So, I think when you come from this place of faith, and you share that with the
team, it gives them room –
Jerry Colonna: Amen, brother.
Carm Huntress: – and instead of speaking in half-truths or – a phrase that I read recently that I
just loved was "consciously incompetent" –
Jerry Colonna: Mm-hmm.
Carm Huntress: – and I think organizations do that. They know – you said that earlier, right?
You know and I think coming from that place of faith, allows for that space to

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be conscious, the organization to be conscious and aware and gives it its own
room to speak in its own truth. So –
Jerry Colonna: Imagine what it would be like to be an employee where leaders gave them
space to be conscious of their incompetence, and it being okay.
Carm Huntress: Uh-huh.
Jerry Colonna: This notion of work as a journey towards fulfillment of you as a human being
instead of work as a means for a paycheck –
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: – comes to mind. If we could lead from a place from faith, then we can create
organizations where human beings not only get to show up, but get to grow.
Carm Huntress: So how do you – if you come from a place of faith, how do you – is it only
about the way you’re communicating and acting, or is it really about the way
you’re making decisions?
Jerry Colonna: Say more.
Carm Huntress: What I mean is that there’s the faith that you talk about. I see very clearly in
the interactions I can have with my team, in the company, and from a larger
perspective because I believe that there is something about it being more than
a paycheck and I believe that work should really be that. Is that, you’re all
coming together to serve a common goal and purpose and mission and to do it
consciously and giving everybody room to fail and learn and grow is fantastic.
It’s exactly what you want to create. But then, there is this faith in decision-
making and the faith in, "Boy, am I guiding the company in the right
direction?" Am I – you know, we’ve got to go this way or that way? Which is
the right way?" Often those decisions are driven by data, are driven by very
rationalized thinking. So my question really revolves around, "Do you come at
those decisions with faith? Are they just as, you know, powerful in terms of –
in each decision made, there is a truth that you are just living into. I don’t
know, I’m trying to reconcile that.
Jerry Colonna: Well, I think that you know how before, I sort of interrupted you when you
said, "But, but is the purpose –?"
Carm Huntress: Uh-huh.
Jerry Colonna: So I think that some decisions – or decisions are often come to based on
analyzing data. I think that that’s a very important and useful pool. But I think
we’re doing an injustice to our self and to the reality of the situation when we
pretend that we’re making those decisions only based on data and not based

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on felt senses, or perhaps a wish to push away a fear, or an intuition. When
you allow yourself to come to a decision based on faith, it occurs to me that
perhaps then you get to integrate both the intellectual, "Let me look at the
data," and the felt sense; the inner and the outer, if you will.
Carm Huntress: Uh-huh.
Jerry Colonna: What if having faith in yourself and your team’s ability meant being able to
trust as you do data and the sources of data because as we all know, data can
be wrong; right? Or data can be misinterpreted and yet we seem to imply
when we’re using it, that it can’t be. What if we apply that same faith that we
have to the other senses that are available to us as we make decisions?
Aesthetic?
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: Beauty, love? Love of product? Craft?
Carm Huntress: Yeah.
Jerry Colonna: You know, these other felt senses.
Carm Huntress: [Sigh] It would be incredible. It’s a really – you know, the resonance of that is
very high, when I hear you say that. And –
Jerry Colonna: And it’s okay to note that it’s hard.
Carm Huntress: It hard and, you know an example that comes to mind is, I recently had to fire
somebody. Firing for me is like the worst – I mean, it’s terrible for a lot of
people but it’s terrible for me because it’s like going against, you know, I’m
this people-pleaser and I like to make people happy and, [Laughs] you know,
having that level of discussion was like, "Look, we’ve got to let you go" is
one of the hardest things that I’ve had to do and develop and, you know, I will
tell you I was sitting with the decision of doing it for a few weeks. I could feel
myself, you know, trying to rationalize my way out of doing it. "I don’t want
to do this, you know, it’s kind of working. It’s in one of those grey areas
where it’s kind of working but kind of not working." I kept going back and
forth but I will tell you I had this moment where I kind of took a deep breath,
and I went, "This is the right decision."
Jerry Colonna: Yeah.
Carm Huntress: And when I said it, you know, it was like, that was the truth.
Jerry Colonna: Yeah.

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Carm Huntress: And it was – and I could feel. It was a body thing, it wasn’t a mind thing. And
guess what, I did it, and it was hard as hell. It was tough because the person
was great and they were so understanding and – [Laughs]
Jerry Colonna: Yeah.
Carm Huntress: – all those things and – but, you know, I hung up the phone after it happened
and I realized that it just – it was like –
Jerry Colonna: Yeah.
Carm Huntress: – everything kind of settled down, and I went, "Whoa, I know that was right."
And you know, there is a big part of me. I want to find more of that.
Jerry Colonna: Yeah. Well it’s funny that you say that because the wish I just had was that
you would have that as your dominant, leadership motive. Now Carm, I
apologize, but we need to actually wrap this now. Was this helpful for you?
Carm Huntress: Oh my gosh Jerry, his is fantastic. I mean, I think the ideas of, you know, both
being analytical and data-driven are great, but the idea of allowing faith and
truth into both the way our company communicates and grows as a team and
otherwise is incredibly powerful. So, I thank you very much.
Jerry Colonna: Oh, it’s my pleasure and thank you for your questions. They not only please
my wish to be a teacher, but they also provoked me to think about new things
in ways that I haven’t thought before. So I’m really grateful for you doing
this.
So that’s it for our conversation today. You know, a lot was covered in this episode from links,
to books, to quotes, to images. So we went ahead and compiled all that, and put it on our site at
reboot.io/podcast. If you would like to be a guest on the show, you can find out about that on our
site as well.
I’m really grateful that you took the time to listen. If you enjoyed the show and you want to get
all the latest episodes as we release them, head over to iTunes and subscribe and while you’re
there, it would be great if you could leave us a review, letting us know how the show affected
you. So, thank you again for listening and I really look forward to future conversations together.
[Singing] "How long till my soul gets it right?
Did any human being ever reach that kind of light?
I call on the resting soul of Galileo,
King of night vision, King of insight."
[End of transcript 00:58:25]