There is real suffering out there and that suffering that is causing violence. What are some of the causes of the suffering and how might we address those? It’s a true honor to welcome entrepreneur, creator, and teacher, Konda Mason to the podcast for an important and timely conversation with Jerry. This discussion was recorded last week, and we thought it was really important to get this out sooner rather than later, particularly given the events in Orlando. Konda and Jerry address some of the source causes of this suffering, this pain, and what opportunities might lie in remembering we’re all in this together. This conversation will challenge you on your own privileges and inspire you find new ways of connecting with people from all backgrounds.

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“If you would change colors right now, would you be a black man in America?
Would I be a black woman in America?
Would you be a black woman in America? Would you take that on right now? If your answer is
no, then something is there. Something is there that you know exists that you don't want.”
Welcome to the Reboot Podcast.
Hi, this is Dan Putt, a partner here at Reboot.
What privileges do you hold? I have spent most of my life unaware of my own privilege. Born to
middleclass parents, white, male, American, and always given the space and the resources to
educate myself. These are things that all serve and have served me tremendously and yet, I'm
really unaware of them day in and day out. Warren Buffet has often said that he won the ovarian
lottery. Perhaps it is true for me as well. I know that I have worked hard and I know that in some
ways I have earned where I am and what I have.
So, when my privilege was reflected back to me and called out in a practice coaching session last
fall, I felt terror and shame, shock and then connection. As part of my coaching training, we were
regularly paired up with other classmates to do some coaching practice. For this particular class,
we were discussing the concept of privilege and how it can impact us as coaches, but also impact
our clients. In fact, we both can be there without being aware of our privileges showing up. "It's
just the sea we are swimming in" as our guest tells us today.
So, when I was paired with a mid-forties, African-American, lesbian woman from a very
different location, in a very different background, I was terrified. I will never forget the laugh she
let out as we started out our session: "Oh man, I am sorry, but I think it's so funny that I am with
you, a white man. I have a lot of pain and anger, and I am fresh off of a new painful experience.
So, my rage is fresh." There was silence. I felt immediate terror and shame. I had become
painfully aware of my privilege. I had been plucked from my sea, but I also felt a true and deep
wish to connect. I don't know where it came from, but what I said to her was, "Yes, I am a white
man and I could never pretend to understand the challenges you have faced, and the deep pain
and rage you hold. But I am here, I am listening and I wish to support and understand."
She took a breath. She said, "Okay, thank you." In that moment, we both noticed the sea we were
swimming in, we both noticed how different and alike we were. We both noticed a connection at
the human level. I don't share this story to convince you how great I am. I tell you this because
this is an incredibly hard and challenging issue and one that we can be painfully oblivious to. Yet
the opportunity is there to find a deeper connection we all can share, a deeper connection we are
all capable of as human beings. So, it's a true honor to welcome entrepreneur, creator and
educator, Konda Mason to the podcast.
Konda and Jerry recorded this conversation last week and we thought it was really important to
get this discussion out there sooner rather than later, particularly given the events in Orlando.
There is real suffering out there, suffering that is causing violence. Konda and Jerry address
some of the source causes of that suffering, this pain, and what opportunities might lie in

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remembering that we are all in this together. This conversation will challenge you on your own
privilege and inspire you to find new ways of connecting with people from all backgrounds.
**
Apply now for our CEO bootcamp this fall, October 5th through the 9th, 2016. Join us, and 14
other peers for the retreat that may change your work and life for the better. Apply now at
reboot.io/bootcamp.
**
"The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here and you are out there." –
Yasutani Roshi.
Jerry Colonna: Hey Konda, it's really great to see you again. Thank you so much for
coming on the podcast with us.
Konda Mason: I'm so happy to be here. This is wonderful.
Jerry: Before we jump in, would you take a moment and just identify yourself and tell us
a little bit about you? I know a bit of your background, but I always like to have
the guests really identify themselves.
Konda: My name is Konda Mason and I am – I have a couple of roles that people know
me through. One is, I am a cofounder and the CEO of Impact Hub, Oakland,
which is a coworking community of amazing change makers here in Oakland,
California. We have a coworking space and a coworking community and an event
space venue for really great things that are happening on the planet. I cofounded
and I run this place with my partners.
Additionally, I think another identity that I have is that I am a Dharma teacher and
Yoga teacher. I am often at Sprit Rock; I'm on the board of Spirit Rock in
Woodacre, California. That's another identity that I have. Prior to all of that, I'm
from L.A. and was a filmmaker like most people in L.A. I did a lot of film things
and all kinds of stuff that can be looked up if you want to.
I am a storyteller. I love that. I also worked in theater in New York. I was a
production stage manager, I was in the music industry, I did a whole
entertainment thing for a very long time as well as my spiritual Dharma path. I am
also an entrepreneur. I have been an entrepreneur my whole life. That's pretty
much me kind of in a nutshell.
Jerry: And I'll reveal, we first met by serving together on a board of trustees at a place
called Kripalo in the [Inaudible 0:07:02] many years ago.

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Konda: Yes.
Jerry: I feel incredibly lucky and fortunate to have reconnected with you through our
mutual friend Matt Stinchcone.
Konda: That's right.
Jerry: I remember, when we first reconnected via Skype, I'm just going to say, it was
like two little kids being giddy. I wish Skype had that feature where you could
reach out and just hug.
Konda: That would have been so appropriate.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: It is so wonderful to connect back with you Jerry. I am just thrilled. I'm not going
to let you go again.
Jerry: You got it and same here. The truth is, Konda, I may have mentioned this, but part
of the reason that reconnection happened was because one of the things that's
happening at Reboot, understandably so, because there's suffering in there. We
kind of dive into that 'suffering pool' if you will. We have been approached by a
number of people about the question of inclusivity and I was talking to Matt really
trying to reach out for people who could help with this question. He said, "I have
this friend, Konda –" I was like, "Konda?"
Konda: Here she is.
Jerry: In reconnecting, one of the things I was really hoping to have a conversation
about – a lot of people who listen to the podcast know, most of the podcast
conversations are me working with an entrepreneur over some particular issue
that they are working with. We joke, it's kind of laughter, it's a lot of tears, but it's
really about reconnecting deeply. In addition, there are these other episodes,
where, for example, Sharon Salzberg and I have had a number of conversations
about just "Mindfulness in the workplace."
I use that term loosely because like so many other spiritual practices, there's a
kind of looseness around the terminology that shows up. I hope you are
comfortable with me saying this, but I see you more as a teacher in this role,
acknowledging and deeply honoring your role as an entrepreneur and really your
role at Impact Hub as kind of a facilitator of the entrepreneurship in addition to
your own entrepreneurship with Impact Hub.
Konda: Right, absolutely.
Jerry: I think you hold in multiple seats. That's the Konda I know.

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Konda: Yes.
Jerry: Does that make sense?
Konda: Yes, it totally does. The best part of this job is that part when I am connecting
with entrepreneurs, and we are just going deep with what's up.
Jerry: Yes. I have got more questions – usually the guest has questions for me. I've got
some questions for you in that regard.
Konda: Okay.
Jerry: This just popped into my head; before we go forward, and I don't even know if
we'll keep this or just edit this out, but I just want to pause and note that it's June
13th and yesterday –
Konda: Yes.
Jerry: We are both fortunate that they are only recording the audio on this because I am
about to cry.
Konda: Yes.
Jerry: You know, leaving aside the operational nonsense associated with a whole
question of diversity where you say, count the number of people who identify in
one way or another and leave aside what feels like just a painful nonsense about
bathrooms.
Konda: Thank you for that nonsense part.
Jerry: It's just nonsense.
Konda: It's total nonsense.
Jerry: Leave aside all of that for a moment. There's a suffering that exists in the world
and it's manifesting in a kind of hate. This question of inclusivity, which is one of
those words that kind of has lost a sense of meaning for me – but I struggle with
what words work because the question of inclusivity, if we don't get this right,
more people are going to die –
Konda: Yes, that's right.
Jerry: – either by their own hands or by the hands of others, and transgendered people
are far more likely to be victims of violence. People identify something other than
some internalized sense of norm, whatever the hell that means, are more likely to

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experience a sense of isolation and suffering. With our [Inaudible 0:12:40]
election for violence in our society already, you know, I don't even know where
I'm going with this, but I say all this because it feels like the conversation that we
all need to have, especially those of us in industry that is purporting to try to
change the world, it needs to be something broader than just are you being
sensitive to words. Am I making sense on that?
Konda: It's so much bigger than that. In this country, we have a tendency to band-aid
problems.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: We don't go into the source very often, typically. We band-aid problems and then
we can move on. This question that you are bringing up, this subject that you are
bringing up is, in my opinion, the biggest problem in the 21st century. The biggest
problem is, what I call, and I have to quote my friend John Powell from UC
Berkley, "Othering and belonging." That is what we are talking about. We are
talking about othering and belonging. It's the biggest, I think, issue that we face.
It is connected to everything. There are so many people who are on, you know, to
fix the world; if we don't have a planet – you know, climate change; if we don't
have a planet, we can't be here to even other. So, that's the most important issue of
the day. Then there's the social justice people and it never fails to amaze me how
the camps see themselves as separate. There is not an environmental issue that
doesn't have a social justice implication and impact.
They are so intertwined and all of that has to do with the mindset that has othered,
whether it is based on race, class, gender, preferences, who is on top, who is on
the bottom, I got mine – it's maximizing me. It's the idea that in our society that
we – which goes back to capitalism and how it all started, it's the maximization of
'me' as opposed to the maximization of 'we'.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: That whole 'me' mentality has all kinds of – it manifests in all kinds of ways.
When 'me' is up against difference, it looks like othering. That's how it shows up.
It's a huge, huge problem. When I think about these diversity issues that people
want to kind of wrap their heads around in organizations and businesses, and they
are looking at quotas and they are looking at words or they are looking at
bathrooms, it's the band-aid. There's so much to it that is not being looked at, that
most people are not looking at – are not even aware of.
They are not even aware of it because it's like check it off – "We need more
people of color, we need more women, we need more – check it off, how many do
we have? Okay, get them."

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Jerry: Do we have equal pay? Do we have equal access? Do we have equal bathrooms?
Do we have – the whole bathroom issue – and have we actually instituted
training? Now, I think you'll agree, those things are important.
Konda: Yes, they are all important.
Jerry: They are all important, but they don't really get to this sense of belonging that
John Powell speaks to or the otherness or the othering, which – I'll tell you a
story; I was at an all-hands meeting, and there was a question from the audience
that came up. We were talking about tribes and a sense of belonging, and the
person who asked the question – it was a very powerful and poignant question,
but I think it speaks in an inadvertent way, to the issue that you are talking about.
The person asked, "What do I do to inculcate empathy and compassion when I
encounter someone who is not of my tribe? What do I do when I encounter
someone who is not in my tribe when I want to be empathetic?" I'll tell you what I
ended up saying to him, but first, I noticed that question.
Konda: Yes, it's an interesting question. I mean, that question alone just makes me cry. It
makes me sad.
Jerry: Right. Why does it make you sad?
Konda: Well, it makes me sad to think that only in my tribe – I have the culture that only
in my tribe that's what I care about.
Jerry: That's exactly –
Konda: And you got to teach me what to do outside of my – whatever my tribe is.
Jerry: Yes, and the part of the heartbreak of the question for me was also the poignant
wish that was behind it. There was a wish for that connection.
Konda: Yes.
Jerry: Thankfully, in my mind, His Holiness Dalai Lama came in. I have always said on
this show, I stand on the shoulders of giants. I know nothing but what I have been
taught. What I have been taught is that there is no tribe to which I don't belong.
Konda: Yes, exactly.
Jerry: So, what I said to him was, how about being a member of the tribe of people who
feel like they don't belong?
Konda: Oh, that's interesting.

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Jerry: How about being a member of the tribe of human beings born to parents because
whether or not you know your biological parents or whether or not you were
raised by parents, you were still born in this meat-bag. There is a root
connectedness that is actually built into our biological being –
Konda: It is. We were built to have empathy for each other. We were built that way. The
notion that we were built to – you know, the whole social Darwinism, we were
absolutely built. Here's a deal Jerry, I've been working with the Greater Good
Science Center at UC Berkley and the work of wellbeing. They did some research
around wellbeing and it was like, they did research for four years. It was like four
years of research around looking at people no matter where they live, their
geography, their place was, whatever their socio-economic status was, that they
came up with four things that made people well.
Those four things that make people well are when one connects with oneself and
one's purpose on the planet. What is my purpose? Who am I? And when you have
that deep connection with self, it's like, wow. The second one was connection to
someone else, connection to others. Babies touch, right? When we touch each
other, when we touch each other whether it's physically or emotionally or
mentally, we are connected as people on this planet when we connect with each
other. Third is when we have experienced compassion and generosity, when we
have exhibited that to others. The fourth is, when we have connected to something
bigger than ourselves, a sense of awe, whether it's a tree or this flower. Right now,
these new flowers are outside of my house, that's making me – I'm loving –
whatever that awe is, that sense of awe, something greater than yourself.
So with those four things, when you look at those four things, that is really when
we feel and experience interdependence. When we experience interdependence,
that makes us well, that's who we really are. Right? We are so deeply
interdependent to this planet, to each other, to all species, to all that is happening;
this is why you can cry and – I just had a staff meeting and my staff, [Inaudible
0:22:18] is what happened in Florida and we did a silence here. There were tears.
We don't know these people –
Jerry: But we do.
Konda: – but we know them.
Jerry: Exactly; that's what I was going to – I feel like I do know them.
Konda: Exactly. We all know them. So, that's who humans are. There has been so much
to separate us from each other and to believe in it. My prayers have been for the
shooter. It's like, who can you be that you have bought into this fallacy story and
narrative that we are separate and that you are not connected to those people that
were on the other side of that pistol? What happened that you really believed that,
that you are not connected? That's the story that we bought into and that's where

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the othering is and that's where the 'them,' and 'us' and 'me' and 'you' over there.
It's a deep question.
I paint myself in these conversations just on the very top of the iceberg, you know
the band-aid. It's really hard because people want something quick – that's our
culture, give it to me quick, let me fix it and let me get on to the next thing. It is
the biggest issue, in my opinion. We will not solve our – in my opinion, I mean, I
look at a lot of NGOs who are doing great work on the planet. Everybody is doing
such great work. I'm here in Oakland where there's more NGOs per capital than
any place else in the country. Beautiful people doing great work.
In my opinion, when folks in addition to whatever it is that they do, whatever they
are focusing on, in addition, if the othering, belonging, social justice element is
not a part of it, then it's still is insufficient because we, in my opinion, we have to
do that work to really "say whatever it is we are trying to say" or to do the work
that is really going to really transform how we are living on this planet. We have
to all get on the same bus.
We have to get on the social bus and how we treat each other and how we do and
who we are to each other; the othering, the belonging, and we can then – we can
and simultaneously, it's not sequential, but certainly that has to happen at the same
time. It's so much easier, quite frankly, for us not to do that because it's so filled
with shame and guilt, and conversations that we don't have with each other. We
don't have these conversations.
Jerry: I would argue; we don't even have this conversation with our self.
Konda: We don't. You are right. It's so much easier to avoid it because there's this – I
have to say, I think there's just this dissention within ourselves about it because
deeply inside, like I said, we are wired to care for each other. We are wired to
care.
Jerry: We are wired to care and we are socialized to see ourselves as disconnected to not
be interdependent.
Konda: That's right.
Jerry: I'll take a programming note, the two of us are both are trained in one form or
another, we had Buddhist teachers, so interdependence is a concept that we have
known. But for the wider audience, it's – I mean, you tell me how this definition
lands, because I think your definition, going back to the four attributes of wellness
is really powerful. But this notion that I do not exist in this bubble, that the belief
of the bubbleness, of the aloneness of my own self with a capital S is in fact, the
root of not only my own existential suffering, but the root of the violence that
exists in our communities and in the way we respond to each other. That's the way
I hold that definition.

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Konda: Yes.
Jerry: I was thinking as I was hearing you, why is it such a difficult conversation for us
to have with each other or with ourselves or in our organizations? The intent
seems to be positive; someone reaches out to Jerry, "Jerry, do you know if a good
diversity training consultant?" And I want to scream. It's like, okay, that's great.
Like you, I want to get to the root of the issue, which is, what is the fierce
conversation that we are not having?
Konda: Yes.
Jerry: Can we go there?
Konda: Like I said, it is filled with shame, guilt, unearned – okay, I'm just going to get
real with you right now, okay?
Jerry: Please.
Konda: I have to say that – particularly the race issue in America is filled with unearned
privilege.
Jerry: Yes.
Konda: Even though – I'm talking for white people, unearned privilege, that I can look at
and say I earned this, I went to school, I did this, I got my PhD, I did this and that
and when you go back, and you go back, and you go back and you look at the
history of America, and you look at the land issues and that wealth is based on
land and how land was distributed and not distributed, who got it and didn't get it,
and when did they get it, and you look at – I always use the metaphor of baseball
that you know, you were born on third base and you are running to home plate.
Right on, you did a great job. You got your education, you did all that stuff and
then there are people who are born behind the back stop, who didn't even get to
first base. So, I say that this feeling, I believe, this feeling of unearned privilege,
especially when it is confronted with the angry folks of color whether they are
black or brown or native, like angry folks of color, is scary. It comes up against an
unearned privilege like, "I'm glad I'm not you" because like [Inaudible 0:29:25]
said, if you would change colors right now, would you be a black man in
America?
Jerry: Would I be a black woman in America?
Konda: Would you be a black woman in America? Would you take that on right now? If
your answer is no, then something is there. Something is there that you know
exists, that you don’t want.

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Jerry: To your question, my answer is no and you help me get in touch with the shame
that I feel answering the word 'no'. I remember, we had a conversation, and it was
students protesting at Naropa where I serve on the board of trustees, that helped
me see this. To your analogy about being born on third base, the truth is, I was
born in poverty. There's no question about that. The truth is, I was born basically
a member of a white family in an all-black neighborhood in Brooklyn. I was still-
born on third base.
Konda: You were still-born on third base. Thank you. At least second.
Jerry: No, it was third because I was born and then I had two parents who were still
there. I mean, there were all sorts of things that conspired to help me. But here's
the thing that was really hard and it took me a long time to really recognize that
even asking the question of what base I was born on, is actually an expression of
my privilege. I had the vantage point of being able to look over my shoulder, look
back over my back over my back and say, "Glad I wasn't born there."
Konda: Yes. "Glad I wasn't born there." Exactly. That's the thing that happens. What you
just said, I'm so glad you said it because everybody wasn't born with wealth in
this country. A lot of white people are very poor. I hate – [Crosstalk]
Jerry: A lot of people's spirits were in the holocaust. A lot of people's parents suffered
because of their race.
Konda: That's right, because of their race. Exactly. I look at that and all of that is
absolutely true and has its impact. So I really don't want anybody to think that I
take that away. It all has impact. There is this thing in America, additionally,
that's called white privilege. White skin privilege.
Jerry: Yes.
Konda: Male privilege. Gender privilege. There is all of that that is very real and so no
matter what your socio-economic background was, when you walk into the same
room that I walk into as an African-American woman who is more than likely to
be seen as serious in getting that job or whatever that is, it's not going to be me
typically. It's going to be you.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: That white skin privilege, and that male privilege puts you in front of the line
even if you had nothing coming in.
Jerry: Even if – and this is, I think, crucially important for people to understand, even if
you don't realize you have experienced it.

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Konda: That's right.
Jerry: If you ask, let's talk about the valley for the moment, the tech companies which
you work with a lot of. Most of those tech companies are founded by people who
have experienced privilege in some form or another. Even if they are founded by
someone who is an immigrant, say from Asia, there is a kind of privilege that
occurs to them, and there is a kind of blindness that all of us are subject to.
Konda: Yes.
Jerry: That blindness, I don't know when I'm getting a free pass. I don't know when I
walk into a room and someone thinks well of me because of my skin color
because I haven't experienced not being thought well of, because of my skin
color.
Konda: And they, that other person doesn't realize that they are thinking well of you
because of your skin color.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: It's just the sea that you swim in.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: It's so interesting; a very good friend of mine, who I just adore, did this little
question with a group of us and said, "Name all the places that you are
privileged." And privilege is fluid, because I have a lot of privilege. I'm
American, I'm from California, I got a lot of stuff. If people wrote down things
and something very interesting that nobody wrote down was 'able-bodied.'
Jerry: Yes. It's the sea that we swim in.
Konda: It's the sea that we swim in. I am an able-bodied person, I didn't even see that. It's
just as simple as that. It is as simple and as complex as that.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: That's where it gets where – so it's hard to talk about unless you are under
conditions that are really safe; where people feel safety, where people feel like
they can really explore these issues. We as Americans, a lot of us are educated
and we who are concerned Americans like yourself, will do things. We hear about
climate change, so we will read up about carbon and what is happening, what is
this that is going on. So I will teach myself, I will learn this body of knowledge.
When it comes to race privilege work, we think we know, but it is a whole-body
of knowledge to learn. There are so many classes, so many books, so much

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knowledge to understand the history, to understand what's happening here, to get
underneath so that we can actually have real conversations. Doing that work of
learning it as if it were a body of knowledge to study goes a long way.
I am in a cohort of people, mixed races people, 40% people of color and 60%
white. We were going to be together for two-and-a-half years. The first cohort
meeting, the first retreat, there was racial tension. By the end, the teachers talked
about race, and it was in a Buddhist context, but they were talking about race.
Some young white gentleman was not enjoying the conversation and there was
just racial tension. One of the things I said, in the end of the retreat, I said, folks,
think about doing the work of learning about race privileges and what it is
because we are all reacting to each other without having a lot of knowledge.
So, it just so happened that in that cohort a couple of the white people, they do
work with white people on race privilege; with white people only. They stood up
and said, "We are going to do this." Do you know that between our – that first
cohort was in April, the next one was in September; between April and
September, they did a class for the white people only. Almost every white person
in our cohort joined. It was totally voluntarily. By September's meeting, we were
a whole other group. People stood up and said, I didn't know what I didn't know.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: I feel so much freer now.
Jerry: Right.
Konda: It's a process; it's not over at all by any means. I know I'm going to make
mistakes, and it's okay, and I am here in the conversation, and it has freed my life
in so many ways. That is what people said. We came back a whole other group.
Jerry: I want to concretize this a little bit at the risk of creating a band-aid, and you call
me on it if I am.
Konda: Okay.
Jerry: We are both members of this broader community of entrepreneurs.
Konda: Correct.
Jerry: And there is a conversation that is occurring, that uses the word 'Diversity' but I
think is getting to this question of belonging, this question of inclusivity. You are
helping me see that if there is a company, or someone who is listening to this
podcast, who is thinking about training, if they step into the training mode, we are
going to train our executives in diversity, if they are thinking of doing that

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without stepping into the work that your cohort stepped into, then what would you
say? It's important, but it's not enough.
Konda: I think that it's critical. I think that there's different levels: there's the band-aid
level and there's the real level; as far as I'm concerned, the deep level that is
systemic. What you find out first of all, is that this whole thing is systemic. It's not
necessary – we think of racism and racist as this individual characteristic, and yes,
people can be racist, absolutely, they are. The bigger issue, and what we are really
talking about is the systemic nature of racism in America and how the entire
structure is built, created on that notion, on that principle.
That's the kind of learning that one gets when you start seeing it. It opens your
eyes in a whole new way. So, my first reaction to what you just said is that it's
really vital that the people who are asking for this to do that kind of work so that
they can see something different and they really get what they are asking for,
because then they start asking for something more than what they are asking for.
Jerry: Yes.
Konda: There is more than – I just want to throw out the word 'equity'. Diversity is
bringing more people into your space that are women, LGBT, folks of color,
whatever it is. Equity has to do with power. It's about power sharing; because if
we really want to get the work done, that we need to do to make this planet tic the
way that it's going to be whole and well, it's about sharing power. It's about
women, folks of color, whatever it is, having equal power and power in
organizations as opposed to, "I did my diversity quota, I've got a bunch of people
on the floor who are now women and folks of color, whatever it might be" and yet
the entire C-suite is while male.
It's about power equity. So I have to throw in the notion of diversity, inclusion
and equity, which we call – right now, I'm so proud of – I'm on the board of Spirit
Rock and we have this – I really would encourage people to go to the website of
Spirit Rock. Things blew up around race, just to put it bluntly and quickly, and it
has been a place that always has said, you know, we want everybody here and yet,
everybody is not there. So, we went through, and are still going through and
amazing process and they have put up on their website, the DEI which is
Diversity, Inclusion and Equity plan and really speaking to the public about what
they didn't do, claiming it with humility, not shame, just honesty and what we are
doing about it; and we are doing deep work there.
This is not a band-aid. It's been a process and they have put resources behind the
process in order to right any kind of wrongs that might have happened on this
planet. It's not your fault. That's the other thing. It's not your fault. Now, it's your
responsibility to learn, but it's not your fault.
Jerry: Yes.

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Konda: This is a systemic issue that affects every single institution in America. It trickles
down just like you heard Mitt Romney say, [Crosstalk] I was like, whoa. So, let's
just get on the podcast, I don't know if [Inaudible 0:43:11], but what he has done,
the good thing that I think he has done is that I have never seen Republicans say
those kind of things, and really come out against racism the way that they are. I'm
so proud about that happening right now in our country.
With that said, I just say that there is so much to learn that we are unlearning
everyday and don't think you got to learn it. It's a process and once you open that
door, it's a process for life. You can't go back and it's so wonderful and so
liberating. So freeing.
Jerry: I am sitting here like I'm about to jump out of my skin because that's exactly the
feeling I just had. You used the word 'process', I said, oh, this is just another
practice. This is a Dharma practice.
Konda: It is.
Jerry: And then the minute you said, it was liberating, I was thinking back – you know, I
was near tears when you said, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. Then
I felt overwhelmed by the responsibility and then I said – what internalized in me
was, as someone of white male privilege, who has an enormous amount of power,
not commensurate with my humanness, commensurate with my position in the
world, I felt relief when you said, "Share that power."
Konda: Yes.
Jerry: There was a momentary fear; "What's going to happen to me?" but then there was
relief. I'm looking across time and space to my dear friend, Konda, saying, I want
to be by her side. I don’t want to lead her and I don't want to follow her. I want to
stand right next to her.
Konda: Right.
Jerry: I want to have that experience of being human with you.
Konda: Yes. Jerry, can I tell you, when we do that thing that you just said, we think that
our particular tribe has all the answers that I need in life. So, I can stay in my tribe
and I'm just going to get the wealth of knowledge from this tribe. Can I tell you,
boy are you missing out because when that tribe becomes broader and it becomes
the world and it becomes all of us, and it becomes multicultural, the kinds of
things that you will never think of Jerry, and you are very smart man.
Jerry: I agree.

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Konda: But I'll tell you something, there are going to be so many things that you would
have never thought of, and be, whoa, that's it. Those a-ha moments will come and
will come as we continue. It's not about the smartest person in the boardroom
anymore. It's not about the smartest person in the C-suite anymore. It's about the
multi-cultural nature of it so that diversity views are coming in. I want this not
because I want to hit a quota, I want this because I want this experience that I
don't have. Coming into this idea think tank and knowing that it's all valuable
stuff and I am going to be wiser and better for it.
Jerry: I'll put a word on it: I'm going to have the experience that I just had a few minutes
ago, when you introduced and added the word 'equity'. Literally, my head just
went, wow, of course; and fear and liberation all in the same moment.
Konda: Of course; behind the fear is the knowledge that I've got the power and we, this
tribe, does have the power, and the question of would you want to be black, would
you do that? No, because I know you don't have the power. I like this –
Jerry: Well, I'll go even deeper. I'm already scared as it is. Take away my power and I'm
really scared.
Konda: Right, exactly.
Jerry: I'm already anxious; and I got privilege. I mean, who's the more neurotic of the
two of us?
Konda: [Crosstalk] – better get rid of some of that neurosis and feel free. That is what
I'm saying. Honestly, what you just said was so honest and funny, but there's a lot
of reality to what you just said. And what the freedom that comes with because
we are honing ourselves behind this fence. This invisible fence that I'm behind
and like, open the gates man, open the gates and see what happens.
It's amazing and I have to say that if people knew the beauty on the other side, the
beauty on the other side on every level that we are holding ourselves back from,
through fear and othering, it's crazy. But we are crazy people, human beings are
crazy entities, and I'd love to see us – I really believe in the deepest heart that that
is the work – and I'm going to challenge you Jerry right here, and you can edit this
out –
Jerry: And see how brave I am.
Konda: Exactly. I am going to challenge you right now, to find yourself a very deep
process around race privilege and start that, and to get in it and then to – let me
know what happens as you go down this road.
Jerry: I accept the challenge and I ask for your help.

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Konda: You got it. Done.
Jerry: Thank you. This is an extraordinary conversation and I just want to thank you. I
think, you know, I have the privilege of having a few people listen to me on
occasion and introducing them to the wonder that is you. It is really an honor for
me and I am committing myself to this. I think it's part of my next evolution in
my own practice.
Konda: Yes. There's some great people doing great work; there's just abundance of it.
Yes, it's easy accessible and maybe, I don't know if you have online repository
where we could put some stuff up.
Jerry: We do. We have these things called five-day reboots, and I'll talk to you offline
about that.
Konda: Brilliant.
Jerry: Thank you so much.
**
So, that's it for our conversation today. You know, a lot was covered in this episode from links,
to books, to quotes, to images; so we went ahead and compiled all that, and put it on our site at
Reboot.io/podcast. If you'd like to be a guest on the show, you can find out about that on our site
as well. I'm really grateful that you took the time to listen. If you enjoyed the show and you want
to get all the latest episodes as we release them, head over to iTunes and subscribe and while
you're there, it would be great if you could leave us a review, letting us know how the show
affected you. So, thank you again for listening, and I really look forward to future conversations
together.
[Singing]
“How long till my soul gets it right?
Did any human being ever reach that kind of light?
I call on the resting soul of Galileo,
King of night-vision, King of insight.”
[End of audio 0:52:04]
[End of transcript]