Dischargeability in Bankruptcy - Transcript of Trial

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - :
:
:
:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - :
DGP . :
NUMERIC RACING :
Plaintiff :
vs. :
ANTONIO :
Defendant :
:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - :
Held April 27, 2022
TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING
[
Trial on Complaint - Day 3 of 6
Excerpt of Testimony of Ramdial
UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY JUDGE
PROCEEDINGS DIGITALLY RECORDED BY COURT PERSONNEL
FROM IN-PERSON, ZOOM VIDEO CONFERENCE AND/OR TELEPHONE.
TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY TRANSCRIPTION SERVICE
APPROVED BY ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICE OF U.S. COURTS.

2
APPEARANCES
VIA IN-PERSON, ZOOM, AND/OR TELEPHONE
For the Plaintiff
DGP Products, Inc.
d/b/a Numeric Racing
R. SOLOMON, Esquire
CRUZ-GARCIA, Esquire
As the Pro Se Defendant ANTONIO
For DGP Products, Inc. GEBERTH, Principal of DGP
Also present

3
INDEX
WITNESSES PAGE
RAMDIAL
Direct Examination by Ms. Cruz-Garcia 4
Cross Examination by Ms. Antonio 15
Redirect Examination by Ms. Cruz-Garcia 31
Recross Examination by Ms. Antonio 37
Further Redirect Examination
by Ms. Cruz-Garcia
40
EXHIBITS IDENTIFIED ADMITTED
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 260 21,32,38
Plaintiff's Exhibit No.
Defendant's Exhibit No. 96 22,24
Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 27
Defendant's Exhibit No.

4
PROCEEDINGS
1
(Entire Proceedings commenced at 11:00 a.m.)
2
* * * * *
3
(Excerpt of Proceedings commenced at 1:39 p.m.)
4
THE COURT: Okay, you can go ahead and swear in
5
the witness.
6
(The witness was placed under oath by the
7
Courtroom Deputy and testified as follows.)
8
RAMDIAL - DIRECT EXAMINATION
9
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
10
Q Can you please state your full name?
11
A Ramdial.
12
Q Say your last name one more time?
13
A Ramdial.
14
Q Ramdial.
15
THE COURT: Would you mind spelling your first and
16
your last name for us, please?
17
THE WITNESS: last name R-a-m-d-i-a-l.
18
THE COURT: M as in Mary?
19
THE WITNESS: Yes.
20
THE COURT: Thank you.
21
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
22
Q And Ms. Ramdial, who are you employed with?
23
A .
24
Q How long have you been employed at ?
25

5
A About eight years.
1
Q What do you do for
2
A A tax accountant.
3
Q And through your work with , have you
4
become familiar with DGP, doing business as Numeric Racing?
5
A Yes.
6
Q And do you know its owner, Geberth?
7
A Yes.
8
Q Okay. How long has DGP, doing -- and I'll just say DGP
9
and that means DGP Products, doing business as Numeric
10
Racing -- been a client of ?
11
A I'm not sure. I received the client as a transition.
12
Q Okay. When did you receive the client?
13
A Probably about four or five years ago.
14
Q Okay. And four or five years ago. And are you
15
currently still assisting DGP?
16
A Yes.
17
Q Okay. So consistently for the last four or five years,
18
what have you done for DGP?
19
A Just tax return prep.
20
Q Okay. And as part of that tax return prep, do you have
21
to communicate frequently with the owner of DGP as to
22
certain transactions?
23
A Yes.
24
Q And why is that?
25

6
A Just to verify that nothing should be capitalized, if
1
anything looks unusual. Usually we just ask for supporting
2
documents to tie up the balance sheet.
3
Q Okay. And during your interaction with DGP, did you
4
also interact with anyone else that was affiliated with DGP,
5
to your understanding?
6
A Not -- mainly it was Dan.
7
Q Okay. Did you have any conversations or any contact
8
with Antonio?
9
A Once briefly, when I went to help Dan gather some
10
documents for one tax return.
11
Q Okay. And where did you go to gather those documents
12
for the tax return?
13
A His home office.
14
Q Okay. And what was your understanding as to who
15
Antonio was?
16
A He introduced her to me as his girlfriend and then said
17
that she helps with the bookkeeping.
18
Q Okay. Did you talk to Ms. Antonio regarding anything
19
related to the bookkeeping?
20
A Not specifically.
21
Q Okay. Do you remember providing a correspondence on
22
March 2nd of 2022?
23
A Yes.
24
Q Okay. And do you remember the contents of that
25

7
correspondence?
1
A Yes.
2
Q And did you indicate that there were some transactions
3
that Mr. Geberth did not recall and that you relied upon
4
someone else's information in order to figure out what that
5
activity was?
6
A Yes.
7
Q And who did -- what information did you rely upon and
8
from whom in order to bottom out those transactions?
9
A I actually don't think we ever filed a tax return for
10
that year because when I was there, I guess Dan started
11
going through the general ledger and questioning some
12
transactions.
13
And at that point, he started to realize that he needed
14
to keep looking through the general ledger. And we just --
15
it just kind of stopped for tax return prep until he cleaned
16
up the QuickBooks.
17
Q Okay. Did you talk to Ms. Antonio regarding any of the
18
entries?
19
A No.
20
Q Do you have any knowledge as to Ms. Antonio making any
21
entries into QuickBooks?
22
A I believe she told me that she used to do -- like,
23
write checks and do the bank reconciliations.
24
Q Okay. And that's the conversation that I'm trying to
25

8
get to.
1
A Okay.
2
Q Is that the conversation that occurred the day that you
3
went to pick up the documents related to the tax return?
4
A Yes.
5
Q Okay. Tell me the extent of your conversation with Ms.
6
Antonio on that day.
7
A She just kind of showed me what she did in QuickBooks,
8
which looked correct, like how she would write a check and
9
how she would do the bank reconciliation, and it was just a
10
brief two minutes through QuickBooks.
11
Q Okay. And can you explain to us what's the process
12
that is in -- the process once you issue a check, to
13
reconcile it with the QuickBooks, step by step?
14
A So, as accountants, we don't verify the, like, invoice
15
to the check. We just verify that the check that was
16
cleared matches the bank statement that cleared. So we just
17
look at basically what's in QuickBooks and that can tie to
18
the bank statement to make sure the amounts match.
19
Q Okay. So you access the QuickBooks account at some
20
point to tally and match the checks with the bank
21
statements?
22
A We don't do the bank reconciliations. We just pull the
23
bank reconciliations that's already been completed from
24
DGP's QuickBooks Online.
25

9
Q Okay. Is it a report that's generated?
1
A Yes.
2
Q Okay. To your knowledge, who generated that report?
3
A Faith.
4
Q Okay. To your knowledge, who inputted the information
5
that appears on the report?
6
A I'm not sure of what detail Faith or Dan was working on
7
the QuickBooks.
8
Q And how do you know that Faith did the report?
9
A When I went, Dan just said that she was helping with
10
the bookkeeping and helping keep up with the transactions
11
because he was so busy.
12
MS. ANTONIO: Objection.
13
THE COURT: Time out.
14
MS. ANTONIO: So objection, hearsay.
15
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: It's not hearsay.
16
THE COURT: She's stating it to prove the truth of
17
something Dan said as to who did what. That's hearsay,
18
isn't it?
19
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Yes, Your Honor.
20
THE COURT: Sustained.
21
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Okay
22
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
23
Q What did -- when you said that Ms. Antonio showed you
24
and it appeared to be correct, what did you mean by that?
25

10
She showed you something in QuickBooks.
1
A She went to, like, write checks, she showed me how to
2
put in the vendor, the amount, the account category, save
3
check, and then that was it. That's how you would write a
4
check in QuickBooks.
5
Q She showed you the screen where she would go to input
6
the check?
7
A Yes.
8
Q Okay. Did she demonstrate by inputting a check for you
9
so that you could tell her whether it was being done
10
correctly?
11
A I don't recall that.
12
Q I don't understand what --
13
A I don't think a specific --
14
Q I don't understand what you mean by "it was all
15
correct." I don't know what that means.
16
A The steps, like she went to the correct screen to input
17
the vendor and the category and the amount.
18
Q Okay. So to your understanding, she had a knowledge of
19
the QuickBooks --
20
A Yes.
21
Q -- account?
22
A Yes.
23
Q And she had an understanding as to the process for
24
inputting checks into QuickBooks.
25

11
A Yes.
1
Q And to your knowledge and observation, did she also
2
have an understanding as to what clearing a check meant?
3
A Yes.
4
MS. ANTONIO: Objection, leading.
5
THE COURT: Hold on. You are leading.
6
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: I am, Your Honor. I'm trying to
7
short-change this.
8
THE COURT: You mean shortcut it.
9
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Shortcut it, I'm sorry. I
10
should never use American sayings that I don't know.
11
THE COURT: You could ask for her observations
12
concerning how facile Ms. Antonio was with the program.
13
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Okay.
14
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
15
Q How about that question, that the judge just asked?
16
A Can you explain that a little bit more?
17
Q From your observation --
18
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
19
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
20
Q From your observations, what were your impressions
21
regarding Ms. Antonio's knowledge of QuickBooks?
22
A It seemed like she knew how to use QuickBooks.
23
Q Why did it seem to you that she knew how to use
24
QuickBooks?
25

12
A Just by the brief conversation, she knew, like, where
1
the accounts were going, what the transactions were, the
2
chart of accounts, writing a check, doing the bank
3
reconciliation, just the basic things that we would look at.
4
THE COURT: Did you say charting accounts?
5
THE WITNESS: The chart of accounts, so like --
6
THE COURT: Chart of accounts.
7
THE WITNESS: -- the categories that expenses
8
would go to.
9
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
10
Q Did Ms. Antonio make any comments regarding Mr.
11
Geberth's understanding of QuickBooks?
12
A Not that I recall.
13
Q What was the resolution that day regarding the
14
transactions that you were there to inquire about?
15
A We never to go to one. Dan was supposed to review the
16
general ledger for that year and all the years prior, and
17
it's just -- we haven't filed any returns.
18
Q Okay. And those were a series of transactions that you
19
identified as problematic?
20
A No. It was things Dan seemed to think of as unusual.
21
He found them. It wasn't anything that we would have
22
suspected as unusual, as accountants, not knowing what the
23
transaction was for.
24
Q Okay.
25

13
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Nothing further, Your Honor.
1
Admittedly, the document that was provided by Ms. Ramdial
2
does not say what she has said here today, so I'm not going
3
to move it into evidence.
4
THE COURT: And what was that document? You
5
didn't even ask her to identify it, did you?
6
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: I asked her if she wrote a
7
correspondence on March 2nd, and then I asked her some
8
questions regarding the document.
9
THE COURT: All right. Well, she hasn't
10
identified it. You don't have to offer it.
11
You know, you're coming close to coaching, ma'am.
12
MS. MCHUGH: Sorry.
13
THE COURT: Let me explain something to you. That
14
was, although legally correct, you hurt yourself by
15
insisting on this honest witness giving a narrative. She
16
never would have answered with as much detail if she had
17
been led and just said "yes."
18
Okay, I don't know, ma'am, if you're a trial
19
attorney but if you are coaching her to make that objection,
20
you're leaning in and talking at this time. You just need
21
to be careful of that.
22
The Eleventh Circuit says I have to give her
23
certain accommodations as a pro se, but the more that she
24
gets coaching, the less accommodation she will get. You
25

14
JOHNSON TRANSCRIPTION SERVICE (813) 920-1466
hopefully have read my decision in the Wichard case that
1
gives the parameters of what I must give a true pro se, so
2
be careful, please. That was a very harmful answer that
3
somebody insisted on by objecting to hearsay.
4
MS. ANTONIO: I was asking if I was supposed to
5
get up --
6
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: And, Your Honor, I would just
7
like the record to reflect that everyone on this side of the
8
room heard Ms. McHugh say "objection, leading."
9
MS. MCHUGH: Judge, can we clarify that, though,
10
because it's very uncomfortable that we're being stared at
11
constantly.
12
MS. ANTONIO: That's what I was whispering about.
13
MS. MCHUGH: We have -- she had just whispered to
14
me. It's very uncomfortable that they keep -- that was the
15
conversation that they're continuing to stare.
16
MS. ANTONIO: They just were staring at me for,
17
like, five minutes.
18
THE COURT: They can stare at -- they can stare
19
and you can stare at them.
20
MS. MCHUGH: And that's okay, I understand that.
21
But that's what she said. She said it's very uncomfortable.
22
And so clarification, Your Honor, I am a trial attorney and
23
for clarification, I would like to know, because you had
24
told me I believe on Monday, that I can give you -- that I
25

15
-
can talk as to her procedure.
1
THE COURT: Procedural. That's not procedural
2
advice. Object here to keep something out of the record
3
which, as it turned out, ended up being detrimental to your
4
non-client. Let's go. It's your turn.
5
One of the reasons that we trial judges say that
6
when you've got your own witness it's not a good idea to
7
lead, except for prefatory matters, p-r-e-f-a-t-o-r-y,
8
is because you deprive the trier of fact from seeing the
9
credibility and seeing the non-scripted answers. Go ahead.
10
RAMDIAL - CROSS EXAMINATION
11
BY MS. ANTONIO:
12
Q Good afternoon, Ms. Ramdial. Can you please just give
13
us a background on your education? Where did you attend
14
college?
15
A University of --
16
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Objection, relevance and beyond
17
the scope, Your Honor. We're not even --
18
THE COURT: She's a tax accountant. Maybe
19
she only graduated sixth grade and she doesn't know
20
anything about QuickBooks or to be able to adjudicate
21
whether Ms. Antonio was conversant or not with the platform.
22
Come on.
23
THE WITNESS: University of South Florida, and I
24
Received my CPA about a year after I graduated.
25

16
BY MS. ANTONIO:
1
Q And prior to your employment with and -- is it
2
pronounced Greeb (ph) or (ph)?
3
A (ph).
4
Q
5
6
A ,
7
.
8
THE COURT:
9
THE WITNESS:
10
11
12
BY MS. ANTONIO:
13
Q
14
--
15
A
16
Q ?
17
A A CPA firm also.
18
Q Another CPA firm. And during this time at W -- I'm
19
sorry, PWC, what was your position?
20
A I was data entry for tax.
21
Q A tax processing specialist?
22
A Yes.
23
Q And so you mainly -- you mainly prepare and draft tax
24
documents such as 1099s and W-2s for corporations?
25

17
A Yes.
1
Q Have you recently prepared 1099s on behalf of DGP?
2
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Objection, beyond the scope.
3
THE COURT: Sustained.
4
BY MS. ANTONIO:
5
Q So between the dates of 2016 and 2020, have you
6
prepared any 1099s for DGP Products?
7
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Objection, beyond the scope.
8
THE COURT: Sustained. You're mis-apprehending
9
the use of the scope.
10
MS. ANTONIO: Scope. I think I always do.
11
THE COURT: The scope of the direct examination as
12
opposed to the scope of the relevant timeframe for statute
13
of limitation purposes.
14
MS. ANTONIO: Okay.
15
BY MS. ANTONIO:
16
Q So in -- okay. So in your letter, you state that you
17
met me briefly; correct?
18
A Correct.
19
Q And within this brief time, you state that you and I,
20
Ms. Antonio, had sat down together and I showed you how to
21
use QuickBooks? Is that your testimony?
22
A I don't think you showed me how to use QuickBooks.
23
I just think you just showed me what you do in QuickBooks,
24
like for the writing checks and reconciling.
25

18
Q Do you know the date of this occurrence?
1
A No.
2
Q Do you know the year of this occurrence?
3
A I can't remember. I think it was '18 or '19. It may
4
have been '20, I don't know.
5
Q And do you have -- do you, yourself, have QuickBooks
6
experience?
7
A Yes.
8
Q And do you have access into DGP's QuickBooks account?
9
A Yes.
10
Q Have you had access into DGP's QuickBooks account since
11
2016?
12
A I believe so. Maybe not me personally but the partner
13
at the firm who used to work with Dan before I got assigned
14
the client, would have had access.
15
Q And now upon the --
16
A I'm also not sure at what point DGP switched from
17
QuickBooks Desktop to QuickBooks Online. Because at
18
QuickBooks Desktop, we would not have had access until
19
Dan sent us the file.
20
Q Would you say that you were in DGP's QuickBooks account
21
around December of 2019?
22
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Objection, asked and answered.
23
MS. ANTONIO: I've never asked --
24
THE COURT: I'll let this go. She said she didn't
25

19
know the date. It was '18 or '19 and may have been '20.
1
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't see why we would have
2
had any access -- or why we would have had any reason to go
3
into the QuickBooks unless Dan specifically asked us to
4
clean it up to match the last filed tax return, which is
5
usually what we would do in the QuickBooks. We wouldn't do
6
anything else.
7
MS. ANTONIO: May I approach, Your Honor --
8
THE COURT: Yes.
9
MS. ANTONIO: -- with an exhibit?
10
THE COURT: Approach and then give a copy to Ms.
11
Cruz-Garcia, and then go back behind the lectern so we can
12
hear your questions.
13
MS. ANTONIO: Yes, Your Honor. (Presenting
14
document.)
15
THE COURT: Now, that's the kind of throwaway
16
notebook I'm talking about.
17
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Your Honor, I would object to
18
this exhibit as beyond the scope.
19
THE COURT: I don't know that yet. She hasn't
20
asked a single question about it.
21
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: But before the witness even
22
looks at it.
23
THE COURT: Well --
24
MS. ANTONIO: This is your exhibit.
25

20
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: It doesn't matter.
1
THE COURT: Okay. What is the purpose of -- are
2
you going to confine your question to the scope of the
3
Direct?
4
MS. ANTONIO: Yes, her activities with DGP.
5
THE COURT: All right. That's within the scope.
6
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: I'm sorry, what?
7
THE COURT: Her activities on behalf of DGP.
8
BY MS. ANTONIO:
9
Q Now, Ms. Ramdial, on the second page?
10
A Yes.
11
Q If you can go down to the date, December 16, 2019?
12
A Uh-huh (affirmatively).
13
Q The email address that's listed, it's spelled out
14
-r-a-m-d-i-a-l at .com. Would that be your
15
email address?
16
A Yes.
17
Q And now on this date, would you confirm that this would
18
be a transaction that you had edited?
19
A Yes.
20
Q And going forth with this transaction --
21
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: What page are we on --
22
MS. ANTONIO: The second --
23
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: -- by the Bates label, please?
24
THE COURT: It's at page 2.
25

21
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: What's the Bates label on it?
1
MS. ANTONIO: It's TR02499.
2
THE COURT: And what was the exhibit number for
3
identification?
4
MS. ANTONIO: The exhibit number is 260 of the
5
Plaintiff's.
6
THE COURT: Got it. Thanks.
7
BY MS. ANTONIO:
8
Q Now, within this, if you can go to where it says No. 1,
9
Innisbrook Salamander. Did you make that change that states
10
Contract Labor, for the account?
11
A I believe that was already categorized in there. I
12
think this may have been something to do with the Bank Rec.
13
wasn't tying out and I had to re-add -- it may have been
14
deleted and I had to re-add it and then clear it. That's
15
why it says "R".
16
Q If you go to the third page, and that would be TR02500.
17
So the top transaction under Account, No. 1?
18
19
Q Can you please read that for me?
20
A Advertisement? Is that what you're asking me?
21
Q Ask my accountant?
22
A Ask my accountant, uh-huh (affirmatively).
23
Q So would you say from that transaction dated August
24
25th, 2021 to the next transaction, which would be the
25

22
transaction from you December 26, 2019, would you confirm
1
that the change in that account was changed to Contract
2
Labor, is that correct?
3
A Yes.
4
THE COURT: When was it changed?
5
THE WITNESS: December 26th.
6
THE COURT: Of what year?
7
THE WITNESS: 2019.
8
BY MS. ANTONIO:
9
Q And I would like to go to the next exhibit.
10
A Can I say something about this transaction?
11
THE COURT: About what?
12
THE WITNESS: This transaction.
13
THE COURT: If you need -- if you feel like to
14
make your answer complete, you may, as opposed to
15
gratuitously adding something to the record.
16
THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
17
MS. ANTONIO: (Inaudible.)
18
THE COURT: You've got to get behind that mike and
19
say it again.
20
MS. ANTONIO: Oh, I'm sorry. This is my Exhibit
21
96. And I want to say one more -- I want to ask one more
22
question regarding the 261.
23
THE COURT: Well, wait. I had 260 down.
24
MS. ANTONIO: Oh, 260, I apologize.
25

23
BY MS. ANTONIO:
1
Q Regarding 260, would you say that a transaction with
2
the description of Innisbrook would be a correct -- it would
3
be a correct account to attach to Contract Labor? Is it
4
some -- is it a transaction that would be wages or a
5
transaction that would be for an everyday business expense?
6
A I don't think it would be wages or a business expense.
7
Q And why would a transaction be listed as Contract Labor
8
if it's not considered wages?
9
A I think this specific Innisbrook transaction is the
10
first transaction that caught Mr. Geberth's eye when he was
11
looking through the general ledger at the time we briefly
12
met.
13
This is kind of going back to what I stated in my
14
letter, because he was confused as to why he would have
15
advertising at Innisbrook, because he said it wouldn't make
16
sense for his business to even advertise at Innisbrook.
17
And so when he was going through the general ledger, he
18
had wanted to categorize all the things that he thought was
19
incorrect into the one account called Contract Labor, which
20
is why I moved it. Because he asked me to move it there.
21
Q And is this a time that you briefly met Ms. Antonio?
22
A Yes.
23
Q So in December of 2019 you had met each other?
24
A I don't believe --
25

24
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Objection. Misstates the
1
testimony, prior testimony.
2
THE COURT: You may ask her when. Well, you can
3
-- she can lead her.
4
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: It just misstates the -- that's
5
all right, Your Honor.
6
THE COURT: Did you meet -- you met with -- I
7
heard: You met with me in December of 2019; correct?
8
That's where she was going before you interrupted.
9
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: December of 2019?
10
THE COURT: Isn't that what you just said?
11
MS. ANTONIO: That's what I said.
12
THE COURT: Yes.
13
THE WITNESS: No. We would have met before that.
14
It would have been some time before September of 2019
15
because the tax return is due September 15th.
16
BY MS. ANTONIO:
17
Q Okay, in the exhibit that I handed you, 96, are you
18
familiar with this general ledger from Numeric Racing?
19
A Yes.
20
Q And on the page -- it's on the bottom of the page, it
21
says 062 or Exhibit 3-C. Do you see that?
22
A Yes.
23
Q And under total for computer and internet expenses, it
24
says Contract Labor. Do you see that?
25

25
A Yes.
1
Q Now, under Contract Labor, the transactions that
2
are listed, are these something that you would consider
3
wages?
4
A No.
5
Q Excuse me and bear with me one minute. If you can go
6
to the page listed, 073?
7
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: 073 of which exhibit, be --
8
MS. ANTONIO: The same that this --
9
THE COURT: Antonio Exhibit 96.
10
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: It doesn't have any numbers on
11
mine, Your Honor.
12
MS. ANTONIO: So the Exhibit C as I was going
13
through.
14
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: 3-C is cut off on the numbers on
15
my copy.
16
MS. ANTONIO: So underneath it, there's numbers
17
right here.
18
THE COURT: Say where it --
19
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: So the side number.
20
MS. ANTONIO: The side number, thank you.
21
THE COURT: The side number, okay. Thank you.
22
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: What number?
23
THE COURT: 073.
24
MS. ANTONIO: 073.
25

26
BY MS. ANTONIO:
1
Q Do you see the amount that says total from -- total for
2
Contract Labor?
3
A Yes.
4
Q Can you please tell me the amount?
5
A $76,128.33.
6
THE COURT: I'm giving you a little leeway because
7
she talked about doing work for them generally, but this
8
seems to be a little granular and off the beaten path of
9
what came in on direct, so --
10
MS. ANTONIO: I'm going to -- I'll cycle through.
11
THE COURT: Okay. I'm sure you'll tie it up.
12
BY MS. ANTONIO:
13
Q Now, continuing with that Contract Labor, this amount
14
was listed for -- from January to December of 2018. Do you
15
agree with that statement? So on page 062, you would see
16
the -- or probably both of them, 062 and 073.
17
A January through December, yes.
18
THE COURT: Of what year?
19
MS. ANTONIO: 2018.
20
21
BY MS. ANTONIO:
22
Q The exhibit that I just handed you, if you could go to
23
the 1099 for 2018?
24
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Your Honor, this is beyond the
25

27
scope.
1
THE COURT: Okay, tell me what exhibit it is
2
first.
3
MS. ANTONIO: It's Exhibit 1, my Exhibit 1.
4
THE COURT: All right. Is this going to -- what
5
is this relating to?
6
MS. ANTONIO: It's relating to -- specifically
7
relating to impeachment on her knowledge with QuickBooks and
8
my -- and her being here -- or her statements towards me.
9
THE COURT: All right. Let's see where she goes.
10
She says it's impeachment regarding her ability to assess
11
somebody's familiarity with QuickBooks.
12
BY MS. ANTONIO:
13
Q So this is -- on the bottom it says DGP-01116.
14
A Yes.
15
Q It's a 1099 for 2018. Can you please tell me the
16
amount listed under non-employee compensation?
17
A $75,935.42.
18
Q So this form right here, were you the individual that
19
created this document?
20
A Yes.
21
Q And from the amounts that are listed, as you say, that
22
in the general ledger, there are generally not wages, why
23
would an amount that's not wages be listed in a form that is
24
listed for as income to an individual?
25

28
A Per the client, it was expenses made by the company not
1
for related to DGP. So if DGP is paying for an employee's
2
expense, it would be income to that employee.
3
Q So as a DPA or a tax accountant, you would agree that
4
it's, by law, you would be able to create a document full of
5
transactions that are not in fact wages to a person, without
6
verification?
7
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Your Honor, this is way behind
8
the scope.
9
THE COURT: She says it relates to something that
10
she grabbed from the general ledger.
11
MR. CRUZ-GARCIA: Okay.
12
THE WITNESS: If an expense is paid by the company
13
that is not a company expense but it's for the employee, it
14
would be additional income to the employee. But since
15
Antonio was not a W-2 employee, she would be a 1099
16
contractor, in which case any income would be reported
17
on this for, 1099-Miscellaneous.
18
BY MS. ANTONIO:
19
Q Did you --
20
THE COURT: Hold on. Wages too?
21
THE WITNESS: Wages, no.
22
THE COURT: For a non-W-2?
23
THE WITNESS: For a non-W-2, contractor wages --
24
THE COURT: Yes.
25

29
THE WITNESS: Yes, it would be.
1
BY MS. ANTONIO:
2
Q And how would you determine that this amount is for a
3
person -- was Ms. Antonio ever declared as an employee?
4
A An employee? No.
5
Q In the year of -- well, let me draw back. So in the
6
year of 20 -- what year did you create this document?
7
A I'm not -- I can't remember.
8
Q Did you -- at the time of creation, did you submit this
9
to the Internal Revenue Service?
10
A It would have been --
11
THE COURT: Okay, you're not impeaching her
12
anymore. You're trying to build up some case for some other
13
case in some other courts.
14
MS. ANTONIO: I am actually not. It's for her
15
statement saying --
16
THE COURT: Tell me how this impeaches what she
17
described as your ability to operate QuickBooks?
18
MS. ANTONIO: Well, I'm trying to impeach -- my
19
impeachment is that she's making statements that me and her
20
sat down at a computer and we discussed QuickBooks, when I
21
have never had an encounter as such with her.
22
THE COURT: Ma'am, that's her testimony.
23
MS. ANTONIO: So --
24
THE COURT: And if you're going to get on the
25

30
stand and dispute it, that's your turn. But the fact that
1
she would prepare at a different time, a 1099 -- and she did
2
accurately describe by law what goes in there, by the way --
3
MS. ANTONIO: And if I --
4
THE COURT: -- then that doesn't impeach her
5
whatsoever on that topic.
6
MS. ANTONIO: Well, it does when these
7
transactions were removed from Daniel as being -- because
8
there's BMG Orlando in there, and a lot of the transactions
9
that was from Universal Studios that was not mine. So how
10
does a Universal Studios transaction in here equate to --
11
THE COURT: Remember that she said that this is
12
not audited. She took what was coded by the client and tied
13
them together.
14
MS. ANTONIO: She just said that she's the one
15
that coded them.
16
THE COURT: Based on his input. That doesn't
17
mean that she audited them. She made a statement early on
18
in her Direct about the extent to which they looked behind.
19
So, sustained. They may not be properly included, but that
20
was not her job to determine based on an audited trail.
21
You didn't audit those books, did you?
22
THE WITNESS: No.
23
THE COURT: Do you know what an audit is?
24
THE WITNESS: Yes.
25

31
THE COURT: Okay.
1
THE WITNESS: Our firm does not do audits.
2
THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?
3
MS. ANTONIO: Give me one minute, please.
4
BY MS. ANTONIO:
5
Q So it says that to the best of your knowledge, Ms.
6
Antonio acted as a bookkeeper for the company during your
7
time assisting DGP with its QuickBooks. Did you assist DGP
8
in the creation of any appointment documents in relation to
9
alleged employment?
10
A No.
11
MS. ANTONIO: That's all I have.
12
THE COURT: Any redirect?
13
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Yes, Your Honor.
14
RAMDIAL - REDIRECT EXAMINATION
15
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
16
Q Ma'am, do you know what the parameters or the criteria
17
for the items included in this folder Contract Labor-R?
18
A No.
19
Q Okay. And you didn't create, yourself, this Contract
20
Labor folder?
21
A Correct.
22
Q So therefore you wouldn't know the extent of every
23
single transaction that's included as contract labor;
24
correct?
25

32
A Correct.
1
Q And as you sit here today, do you even know whether or
2
not Ms. Antonio was a W-2 employee or a 1099 employee?
3
A To my knowledge, she was not getting paid as W-2 or
4
1099 at the time.
5
Q At the time. So after the fact, there was perhaps a
6
direction as to -- a determination as to contract labor,
7
but you don't know one way or the other as you sit here
8
today.
9
A Correct.
10
Q Okay. Now, looking at what has been premarked as
11
Exhibit 260, which is the first document that was provided
12
by Ms. Antonio, that has the P-TR numbers on the bottom?
13
A Yes.
14
Q Okay. Can you please refer to P-TR02500? And looking
15
at the same date that Ms. Antonio pointed out before,
16
November 30th, 2019. Do you see that?
17
A Yes.
18
Q Midway through the page?
19
A Yes.
20
Q Can you please tell us what the check number for that
21
-- this entire trail is?
22
A 2027.
23
Q Okay. Do you know whether or not this check 2027 was
24
payable to Best Buy or Innisbrook?
25

33
A It would say Innisbrook. (Reviewing document.) It
1
says Best Buy, actually.
2
Q It says Best Buy on November 30th of 2019. Do you see
3
that?
4
A Yes.
5
Q All right. And then on November 13th, you see
6
P-TR02501, right? You see November 19th (sic)?
7
A Yes.
8
Q I mean November 13th. I apologize.
9
A Yes.
10
Q Do you see where it says the name Best Buy?
11
A Yes.
12
Q Can you tell me what the check number is for that
13
audit?
14
A There is no check number.
15
Q That's correct. No check number included, right?
16
A Correct.
17
Q And that's the initial entry into QuickBooks; is it
18
not? Just take a moment and look through all of the
19
documents that you have in front of you, and check for
20
the first date that you see that check entered.
21
A So the first date of the transaction was entered
22
December 12th, 2018.
23
Q Okay. And what did it say on December 12th?
24
A There was no number, no name. The memo, which comes
25

34
directly from the bank account when you pull it into
1
QuickBooks --
2
Q Yes.
3
A -- is Innisbrook Salamander magazine advertisement.
4
Q Okay. So just so we're clear for some of us that don't
5
understand how these audit trails work, the first time that
6
the information was pulled into QuickBooks directly from the
7
bank account, it was pulled in as a check that was paid to
8
Innisbrook; correct?
9
A Correct.
10
Q And at some point after December of 2018, it was then
11
changed to reflect something else; correct?
12
A Correct.
13
Q And then on November 13th, it was changed to reflect
14
that the check was payable to what entity?
15
A November 13th, Best Buy.
16
Q But no check number; correct?
17
A Correct.
18
Q Okay. And then on November 14th, which is on
19
P-TR02500, do you see that? On the bottom, November 14th?
20
A Yes.
21
Q Now, the check number appears, and what's the check
22
number?
23
A 2027.
24
Q Payable to whom?
25

35
A Best Buy.
1
Q And there's a note that says that it originally was
2
coded to what entity?
3
A Innisbrook.
4
Q Innisbrook. After that November 30th entry, looking
5
at all of these documents, these pages that we have here,
6
the audit trail for Check No. 2027, can you tell us
7
ultimately what the check was made -- who was the payor
8
for the check?
9
A I would say Innisbrook.
10
Q How do you know that?
11
A The memo from the initial transaction.
12
Q But if it was entered incorrectly at the onset, right?
13
Because the entry -- the first entry of -- the first entry
14
of December 12th of 2018, can that information as to what
15
that check was payable for be entered manually?
16
A Yes.
17
Q Okay. So if someone entered that information to belong
18
to Innisbrook incorrectly, at some point wouldn't -- who
19
would reconcile the bank account and compare the check
20
number, Check No. 2027, to confirm whether or not that
21
QuickBooks entry is correct?
22
A It would be the owner of the QuickBooks or whoever's
23
working on the QuickBooks at the time.
24
Q Okay. So if at some point the owner of QuickBooks or
25

36
whoever's working on the QuickBooks account determines that
1
Check No. 2027 is not payable to Innisbrook, they would
2
notate it on this ledger -- audit ledger; correct?
3
A Yes.
4
Q And by looking at the ledger specifically for January
5
9th of 2020 at P-TR02498 --
6
7
Q -- what does it say as to who the payor of the check is
8
on January 9th of 2020?
9
A Best Buy.
10
Q Okay. And let me find the one that you entered. And
11
when you accessed the system, P-TR02499, do you see that
12
document?
13
A Yes.
14
Q December 26th of 2019?
15
A Yes.
16
Q You had made an edit on that day?
17
A Yes.
18
Q What was the payor and the check number on that day?
19
A Best Buy, check number 2027.
20
Q Did you confirm, yourself, that that check was payable
21
to Best Buy on check 2027?
22
A No.
23
Q Okay. So if we have a check that is 2027 that says
24
Best Buy and it's from the bank, that would be the best
25

37
evidence; correct?
1
A Correct.
2
Q And even if it's coded to Innisbrook, it could have
3
been inputted as Innisbrook at the onset.
4
A Correct.
5
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Nothing further, Your Honor.
6
MS. ANTONIO: I have a few questions on her
7
questions asked.
8
THE COURT: Okay, go ahead and proceed.
9
ASHANA RAMDIAL - RECROSS EXAMINATION
10
BY MS. ANTONIO:
11
Q So you state in your letter that Ms. Antonio made
12
regular and recurring entries into QuickBooks, reconciled
13
bank accounts and credit card statements routinely, but did
14
not make any journal entries to your knowledge. Is that
15
correct?
16
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Your Honor, beyond the scope of
17
Redirect.
18
THE COURT: It kind of is, but if it distinguishes
19
the difference between a journal and a -- I don't know what
20
those things are. So I'm going to let that go. Go ahead.
21
THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, correct. Cohen and
22
Grieb would have been the only ones making journal entries.
23
BY MS. ANTONIO:
24
Q And you say that you only met me briefly?
25

38
A Once.
1
Q Just once. So my question to you is how would you
2
know that Ms. Antonio is making regular and recurring
3
entries into QuickBooks if you've only met Ms. Antonio
4
once?
5
A Based on the introduction Dan gave me and Ms. Antonio
6
when we first met.
7
Q But so it's from some -- from another person's
8
statement that it was being done, but it was not -- you
9
cannot confirm or deny that Ms. Antonio had actually -- was
10
making the transactions into QuickBooks?
11
A Well, Ms. Antonio did show me that what she was doing
12
in QuickBooks was, you know, writing checks and the bank
13
reconciliations. But on a daily recurring, I'm not sure,
14
no. There's no way for me to --
15
Q Ms. Antonio did show you at one point?
16
A I believe we did sit down at a computer and we went
17
through how to write a check and how to do the bank rec.
18
Q Was it you, yourself, teaching Ms. Antonio how to use
19
QuickBooks or was Ms. Antonio --
20
A Ms. Antonio was just showing me what she does to write
21
the check and do the bank reconciliation.
22
Q And drawing back to Exhibit 260 with the -- I'm sorry,
23
the audit trail. So on the bottom where it says TR02502,
24
the transaction dated December 12th, 2018, it says "Added by
25

39
-1466
Numeric Racing."
1
Would you -- from that statement, how would you know
2
that this is a transaction created by Ms. Antonio? Would
3
you be able to tell?
4
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Beyond the scope, Your Honor.
5
Definitely beyond the scope.
6
THE COURT: She's already said that she wouldn't
7
know who.
8
MS. ANTONIO: So she wouldn't know.
9
THE COURT: Did she testify that you were the one
10
that made that?
11
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: No.
12
THE COURT: I didn't hear it.
13
MS. ANTONIO: Well, she's saying in her statement
14
that I'm in QuickBooks making journal entries. I wanted to
15
see how she could determine a person is making journal
16
entries into --
17
THE COURT: She already has -- she's testified, I
18
think it was on your first cross, that she wouldn't know
19
who.
20
MS. ANTONIO: I didn't hear that. All right, I
21
rest. Thank you.
22
THE COURT: You didn't hear it? We discussed it.
23
MS. ANTONIO: I forgot.
24
THE COURT: All right. I don't think I have any
25

40
questions, ma'am. You said that when the QuickBooks was in
1
a Desktop mode, your firm could not access it remotely;
2
right?
3
THE WITNESS: Correct.
4
THE COURT: If you had to access the online set
5
remotely, what would you need in order to access it?
6
THE WITNESS: The -- Dan had set us up with our
7
own login and accountant access, so we were able to log in
8
with our credentials and access his QuickBooks.
9
THE COURT: But you have to have login
10
information?
11
THE WITNESS: Yes.
12
THE COURT: All right, I think that's all.
13
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Your Honor, may I ask one
14
question?
15
THE COURT: Okay.
16
ASHANA RAMDIAL - FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
17
BY MS. CRUZ-GARCIA:
18
Q Once you log in, does QuickBooks time-out at some point
19
that you have to re-enter your login information after a
20
certain time?
21
A Sometimes, yes.
22
Q Okay. Ad do you know about how long that period of
23
time is?
24
A No.
25

41
Q Okay, thank you.
1
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Sorry, Your Honor. Thank you.
2
THE COURT: All right. So I believe that Ms. --
3
it's Ramdial?
4
THE WITNESS: Yes.
5
THE COURT: May step down. Thank you.
6
MS. CRUZ-GARCIA: Yes, thank you.
7
(Witness excused.)
8
(Excerpt of Proceedings concluded at 2:30 p.m.)
9
* * * * *
10
(Entire Proceedings adjourned at 5:05 p.m.)
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

42
CERTIFICATE
This certifies that the foregoing constitutes the
official verbatim transcript produced to the best degree
possible from the FTR digital recording, and/or MP3 backup,
and/or telephonic audio recording, as recorded, logged,
maintained, and provided by court staff.
I further certify that I am neither counsel for,
nor related to, nor an employee of any of the parties to the
action in which this hearing was taken and, further, that I
have no personal interest in the outcome of the action.
May 18, 2022
Culver Date
Certified Court Reporter
Middle District of Florida

Dischargeability in Bankruptcy - Transcript of Trial

Dischargeability in Bankruptcy - Transcript of Trial

Recommended

Recommended

More Related Content

Similar to Dischargeability in Bankruptcy - Transcript of Trial

Similar to Dischargeability in Bankruptcy - Transcript of Trial (14)

Recently uploaded

Recently uploaded (20)

Dischargeability in Bankruptcy - Transcript of Trial