Deeptrust

Deep Trust
Achieve Deeper Levels Of
Intimacy & Trust With Your List

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2

Nic: Hi there. This is Nic Penrake and welcome to this call.
Today I will be talking to my good friend Igor Kheifets about
list building strategies and I think the center is on the issue of
trust, how to build trust, maintain trust, how to work trust into
every aspect of your marketing.
I’ve known Igor for about a year now and I would say that
more than anyone else in internet marketing, he’s the key
person to help me turn the corner from making no money
online, in fact a loss, to turning a profit.
So welcome Igor. Today we’re going to be talking about list
building. Could you give us a brief overview of how you
started with list building and the kinds of strategies that you
began implementing and getting great results with?
Igor: Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me to do
this call and just so you guys know, it wasn’t planned. We
did not go through any specific structures. This is an
improvised call that Nic talked me into doing to share some
kick-ass list building strategies with you.
As a mentor, I only started working on list building maybe
like a year ago. Until then, I was just like you. I’ve tried a lot
of different tactics including the WarriorForum. I’ve tried
launching products and manually searching for people to
promote it with no success. I tried Facebook. I’ve also played
around with pay per view traffic which almost worked for me
but eventually I lost a few hundred bucks. And at that stage it
was almost a third of my monthly paycheck. A really painful
experience. LOL.
Eventually I worked my way up to building a list of a few
thousand people and at that point, it became smooth or
should I say smoother than before and today I’m a proud
owner of a few lists in total of around 60,000 subscribers
Nic: Yes, that’s quite a decent size. Yes. I’m still under
10,000 so that’s quite an achievement.
Igor: But you’re already making money so that’s good. We
can make money with a small list.
Nic: You can, yes and some people make quite good money
with small lists. That will bring us back to the issue of trust. I
mean getting a responsive list is all about establishing trust.
Igor: Definitely, especially today when so many people are
trying their skills at email marketing and most of them are
just doing it plain wrong, making the rest of us look bad.

And if you’re in doubt, whether email marketing is an
oversaturated strategy, I still believe there’s plenty of money
to be made with email marketing and list building because
90 percent of email marketers will always do it wrong. Which
gives you an opportunity to do it right and stand out.
So even if you’re just getting started and you’re skeptical
about this whole thing, don’t be. Just make sure you’re
listening to the right advice from people who really do make
money and not just pretend to make money, right?
Nic: Yes. Absolutely. So if we start with list building and the
trust side of things, perhaps we start with how you build a
list. Well, most people on this call will know that you start
with the squeeze page and opt-ins and you build your list
that way. So perhaps we can talk a little bit about how we
establish trust with the squeeze page and how we get
people to opt in and so on.
Igor: Sure. Well, first of all, there’s more than just a squeeze
page to a list-building funnel. It should include a paid offer to
upsell your potential customers, to make money first of all
and to make your money back second since you will most
likely have to rely on paid traffic in one way or another. (for
affordable paid traffic options, look into solo ads)
Basically what I like to do is use the “trust approach” which is
a term I coined in list building and I taught it to Nic as well as
to my other students and they have been making money
using it.
Today we know for a fact it works for many people not just
me. It should work for you especially since 90 percent of
marketers simply ignore this by following the old path of opt-
in, OTO, OTO number two, go check email, OTO number
three, downsell and finally you get what you opted in for.
Contrary to the old approach which did not work for me, I
decided to go a different way and establish trust first.
So what you do is you invite the person to opt in and on the
next page, you give them what you promised.
Now why is this important? Because many people just make
you opt in and then try to sell you three or four products
before giving you what they promised to give you for free;
but when you just give them what you promised first, you
allow them to let you in into their hearts a little bit especially
if you give away a really good piece of helpful information.
So for example you want to sell an ebook on growing
tomatoes and you give away a tip that has helped you to go
from a tomato-growing “nobody” to winning your local fair
with seven-inch tomatoes and you just share the secret

recipe that you used to grow those tomatoes for free.
Now, if you get something like this for free from a person,
don’t you think you will start trusting him just a bit? I’m sure
you will and that will motivate a person to keep listening to
you and to most likely purchase your big product tomato
growing product.
So for example if you just give them this tip on how to grow
your tomatoes seven-inch wide and then you say “now, that
you know this, I invite you to check out my 32 Recipes to
Grow Tomatoes ebook” or share “31 more ways you can
explode your tomato size within just a few days” .
It should be really good. You got to have a good product to
offer people. Otherwise, you will get lots of refunds.
When you do that, after you’ve given them a real solid tip,
they could have just gone and implemented and got results.
That’s when the magic happens and the trust comes into
play. They will be open to reading your sales letter. They will
be open to click that button and take a chance.
Of course you got to have the sales letter, the hook, the
guarantee, bonuses etc, but trust me when I say this: you
will get a lot more sales and future repeat customers if you
follow this strategy. Because trust is POWERFUL and that’s
one of the most overlooked things in internet marketing
because so many people are being scammed everyday and
the general expectation of an average customer these days
is “if I buy something on the internet, I’m going to scammed.
Someone is going to steal my money or they will just sell
me junk that never works.”
Nic: Yes. that’s absolutely true and so just that people on the
call, especially people who are just starting, are clear as to
this whole structure, we’ve got a squeeze page which then
goes through a single opt-in to a download page and on that
download page, we deliver the free gift. But on the same
page, we warm them up to the product that you want to get
them interested in and that product would be clearly relevant
to the very first thing that you’re offering.
In other words, the freebie. That’s right, isn’t it?
So we’re going from squeeze page to download page and
then we’re warming people up on that page. So how do you
warm people up as doing the pre-sell as it were? Do you use
copy or video or do you alternate the two?

Igor: Well, you could pretty much use anything. I know I
have a page where I use video. I know you Nic, you got a
page where you use video as well. I’ve got plenty of pages
where I use just a few paragraphs of text. It doesn’t have to
be something big but rather something good.
I mean I have a page where all I do is just reveal the 4 step
formula I use to create squeeze pages. So I call it the
“SHMU formula”, a really funny name which makes them
curious and makes someone want to opt in even more.
The S.H.M.U stands for:
S - “Short” which means your squeeze page has to be very
short and above the fold.
H stands for “Headline”. It’s 90 percent of success when it
comes to squeeze pages and it has got to be good. I mean it
really has to be good. Otherwise, it will fail.
M stands for “Multiple opt-in forms”. So if you have more
than one opt-in form, chances are you will get 10 or 20
percent more subscribers. This has been tested by me and
other marketers many times.
U means – “Ugly”. Ugly pages often outperform pretty pages
in many niches.
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6

And so, what do we get? Four to six paragraphs of text.
Then I invite them to check out my list-building product and
well, they go and they buy. I mean I’ve tested this against
having the same product as an OTO and for some weird
reason, it never works while the trust approach has yet to fail
me once
Of course the important thing to mention is that you got to
use single opt-in. So if you make them jump through hoops,
for example if you make them opt in and then you send them
to a page that says “Go back and confirm your email,” and
another link, now it gets tedious and they lose their interest
but if you just use single opt-in, it’s normal. It’s OK. I know
many people are against that but they should not be
because pretty much there’s no difference. If they confirmed
or not, they still subscribe and nobody has yet to sue me for
using single opt-in. I can always prove this person opted in
to my list.
Nic: Yes.
Igor: The important thing is to use single opt-in and the next
page they see after opting in is the page where you deliver
the content.
So you don’t make them wait or too many unnecessary
moves to get what you promised. So at this point, write this
down. Use single opt-in all the time no matter the niche
you’re operating in.
Nic: Sure. Also another point would be that, especially in
the internet marketing niche, you can get better results. You
generally get better results with just putting in the email field.
You don’t need the name and the email on the opt-in. It
tends to get better results.
Igor: Yes, sure. I mean it gets you a significant bump no
matter what niche you are in. Of course it’s counter intuitive
for a marketer not to ask for a person’s name but let’s face it:
today, everyone knows that if you get an email that says,
“Hey John,” it’s not because that person really knows your
name is John.
I mean once, I signed up for an online gambling site. I was
very curious about it and so they asked me what was my
name in the forum and so I filled “Chuck Norris.”
Nic: Right.
Igor: And the next thing you know, two weeks later, I’m
getting a physical letter by snail mail and it says, “Dear Mr.

Chuck Norris, we’re so happy to have you as our customer,”
and it’s just absurd that Chuck Norris would live in Israel and
he’s 18 years old.
Nic: Yes.
Igor: So you don’t necessarily need the name unless you
collect it for some other purpose, whatever it may be. I mean
I know people who collect more than just a name but they do
it after someone purchases a product, not necessarily opt-
ins.
I know I have also seen squeeze pages that request name,
email and a phone number. Now these usually get below 20
percent opt-in rate because people aren’t comfortable giving
away their phone numbers. So you got to decide what’s
more important to you that the customer feels comfortable
giving away his name or type in a fake name into it or not
requesting at all and getting like a 10, 15 percent bump of
your
Nic: Sure.
Igor: So that’s totally up to you to decide.
Nic: Sure. OK. So take us on the journey. Now we’ve gone
from squeeze page through to – well a visitor has from
squeeze page to download page then hopefully have been
enticed enough by the copy or the video to check out the
offer which comes after that.
Now we’re onto sort of the relationship building side of things
where you’ve now got your new subscriber and you will be
sending offers and content and so on. So, let’s talk about
that for a minute, how you set up an autoresponder
sequence or how you set up a series of broadcasts with a
mix of offers, content, freebies. How do you do that?
Igor: Well, I used to believe the known fact, which now, I
believe to be a myth: in order to deliver and become a
trusted source on the internet for people to be willing to open
your emails, you need to deliver some cool content and to do
it for free. But then how are you supposed to make money?
And after watching a DVD recording of Dan Kennedy’s
seminar who’s a worldwide famous copywriter, charging up
to $100,000 for one sales copy including 4% royalties.
It stunned me, to say the least, because he said to get
someone addicted and to get him to fall in love with you, you
have to give them more of “you”. You got to share more of
your personal life stories and not more free content.
Think about it for second, you’re sending out like an article

about blogs and you just give them like a step-by-step guide
on how to set up a blog for free.
Now imagine that somewhere out there, there are plenty of
people who send out blog content and many of them are
sending out paid offers; and so eventually, you think: “Well,
this is free information so it can’t be that good. I better go off
and buy a blogging course from a world famous blogger who
has been making millions of dollars every day for the last
three years doing nothing but blogging and I will listen to his
advice and not Nic’s advice because Nic is giving me advice
for free.”
Now that is pretty much what 70 percent of people will think.
I’m sure you will get many emails thanking you for such an
incredible article but eventually after a few articles, they will
get so used to receiving content for free that you will lose
your sales. They will be expecting the next freebie.
So instead, what you do is you send out personal
information. For example, you share anniversary dates and
personal stories. Tell stories of how your mechanic ripped
you off and how your mother law is a total b*tch, etc.
For example, I’ve sent out an email to my list a month ago
saying I’m getting married and at the time, I traveled from
Israel to Prague and never slept even a second during 29
hours straight because I had to switch flights and visit all
sorts of places and so I emailed my list and said “I’m getting
married!”. I got four times the response with that
headline.
I’ve got so many replies with wishes of health, happiness
and bliss, you won’t believe. I mean I didn’t even know so
many people cared about me and ever since then, I started
sending out content, shared my anniversary days, my fears,
my doubts, my life stories to prove some points and even
sell some products.
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A few days ago, I sent out an email saying how I made six
figures in 2011 and I expressed that I spent like 8 to 10
hours a day behind my computer working and how I wanted
to switch my business model to get more free time to spend
with my family.
That email generated a lot of responses with people saying,
“Yes, you shouldn’t work. You should spend more time with
your wife. You need to cherish her,” et cetera, et cetera while
thanking me for that valuable input.
So what you need to do is just give them more of YOU
instead of more content because in order to make money,
you will have to promote offers to that list.
Maybe it’s your product, an affiliate product or whatever but
the content should be paid and the “you” should be free. So,
the more of “you” you give them, the more addicted they
become to your “you” and reading your emails.
Nic: It’s amazing how many marketers market within us that
just really have no personality at all. They replace their name
with something factual. It could be “Freebie Approved” like
that, not even their name. So you just get an email from
“Freebie Approved”. I mean who the heck is it? And
sometimes it’s not even signed. So you have no chance of
establishing any trust with that marketer.
Igor: Well, I wanted to say that you haven’t got even one
chance. I mean when you think about it, an average person
who signs up to your list has already signed up to many,
many lists and he or she is receiving 80 - 180 emails a day.
Now when that reality occurs, many people will use every
trick in the book to stand out. They will use subject line and
from name as means to get the person to open the email.
Of course most of the time, people who do use these
strategies never focus on the content. You’re right. But it’s
possible to use a different from name and still establish a
relationship as long as the content of your email shares a
10

little piece of you with your customers. That’s what I’m
saying.
It’s not really about the subject lines. It’s more about the
content. Because today, it’s very hard to get a person to
read the email, right?
Nic: Yes. I mean for me, the biggest thing, the most
motivating factor is is the actual name of the person sending
me the email. If it comes from Frank Kern, I’ll open it
because even if I don’t want to buy Frank’s offer, I like
reading his emails. They’re a fun read and there’s some
personality there and the same with yours.
But there are many marketers who just pay for this in a
way. They’ve obviously got a name but if I’ve got a hundred
emails in my inbox, I will pick out three and they will be
names that I generally enjoy reading so all those other
marketers have sort of wasted their shot as it were.
Igor: Yes, you are totally right and that’s exactly what being
personal will get you. You will generate rapport and trust with
your subscribers and this will influence the way they scan
their email inbox and when they see an email that comes
from Nic, who yesterday sent out an email telling the story of
how he was in a hospital with his friend , God forbid. And so
they will check on the situation because it’s not the regular
open-this-go-here-buy-that email and moreover, you can
even tie your personal life with your promotions.
So for example, I remember I sent a very successful email
promotion. I promoted Dan Brock’s Deadbeat Affiliate
Course through ClickBank. I was watching a game, UEFA
Champions League match on TV with my dad and I got this
idea: I was suffering from real painful back pain at the time (I
still do, but not as much as I used to) and I developed this
disease because I’m always sitting at the computer working.
Nic: Sure.
Igor: So I emailed my list and said: “My back hurts like hell
and it’s because I’m always at the computer. Now, don’t be
like me. Check out my friend Dan’s course where he teaches
you how to make money while not doing anything at all.
That’s why he calls it Deadbeat Affiliate. So you pretty much
11

just outsource all the work and you profit…” and at that time,
I had a list of maybe just over 2000 people.
I generated $547 sales as well as a few $197 upsells with
that email and I was psyched. At that point, it was probably
the first time I ever discovered that people who read my
emails care and listen to what I have to say. It happens
because of personality and not because of your free gifts
and content.
There are plenty of people whose content is very solid but
there are only a few who actually make the prospect fall in
love with them. And that’s the difference between making
money with your list and making A LOT of money with your
list.
Nic: Yes. That’s absolutely true. So once you’ve established
trust – I mean as a marketer obviously, at the end of the day,
you’re trying to make money from selling. How far do you
feel you can sort of push that trust in terms of the number of
offers you might send out in one day or one week?
Igor: Well, it all depends on you and your mindset. Let me
tell you that many marketers block themselves from making
money on the internet and making money in general
because of old or ancient (or their parents’) prejudices
against money. Many people will think that if you’re making
lots of money, then you’re a criminal or that if you’re rich,
then you’re a spoiled person or that money attracts trouble
and all sorts of ridiculous beliefs of that sort.
I know a friend who’s making lot of money in his offline
business and he actually believes that money can hurt your
family relationships. He never shares the amounts of money
he’s making with his family. So his brother doesn’t know how
much he’s making. His mom doesn’t know. His dad doesn’t
know and even after this guy bought a brand new car for his
parents, like a brand new jeep, and he gave it as a present
to them, they still don’t know exactly how much he’s making;
and that’s all because he has this belief that if he reveals the
amount of money he’s making to his family members, he will
ruin his family relationship with them somehow.
Another example I can present you with is in fact, very
common one. Many beginners, who just start out as internet
marketers and internet sales people, all have the same
12

negative belief about selling. They are simply afraid of it,
because they believe selling makes them “bad people”.
What a silly mantra, isn’t it?
And eventually, since they are afraid to sell their product,
guess what happens? They aren’t making sales. There you
go, another example of human irrationality backed up by
emotion and negative beliefs.
Now, these are just few examples of the negative beliefs
about money. So mainly your list and the offers you promote
to it is pretty much a flipside of this coin where people
believe: “if I mail my list more than one offer per week, they
will be pissed off at me.” Trust me, they will not.
Just accept the fact that it’s your job to send out offers,
to create products and sell them, to coach people, to
build a list, to promote affiliate products. I mean this is
what you chose to do for a living. This is your job. This
is how you are going to put vodka… I’m sorry food on
the table for your family. That’s it. And of course you can
always maintain a great reputation even if you promote
products every single day.
For example by promoting only quality products to your list.
You’ll have to check out the products first. Read the reviews.
Purchase them yourself and check out to see if it’s fluff
that’s well-written, (well-shot if it’s a video).
Does it deliver good content? Something that’s actually
beneficial to the person who’s going to purchase it and
whether it’s going to help them make money… Trust me
when I say this, if the product your customer purchases
through your recommendation makes him money or helps
him make money in the nearest future, then this prospect will
thank you for referring him to this product, don’t you agree?
Nic: Yes, absolutely logical. Do you feel comfortable
recommending a new product every day? I mean, there are
tons of great products released every single day. Just have a
look at the WarriorSpecialOffers section of the Warrior
Forum and WSO of the Day.
Igor: Yes, exactly. You can easily promote a new product
every day. Now if the person purchases from you a few
times a month, and you notice it, what you should do is
13

approach this person and thank him. Ask him if he needs
personal help from you. I mean I got many customers who
purchase my products all the time. They don’t purchase
everyday but they pretty much purchase something from me
every month and they will jump on the next product I release
for sure. I don’t even have to sell it to them.
Now again if the content is good and they got the money,
they will purchase it. If they invested money and they made
money as a result, they will purchase the next one. For
example, I know for a fact I will purchase the next product
from Coby Wright who’s a good friend & JV partner. I’ve
checked out all of his products and used many of them to
increase my monthly bottom line. So I know that if Coby is
planning a new release, I am buying.
Now if the person purchases your products and he’s not
satisfied or he’s not making any money and at the same time
you know for a fact the product is good… If you share a
proven system that has worked for you that you know for a
fact has worked for other people and you can actually back it
up too, now that’s not your fault and you can’t make people
put the products they purchase from you to work. You can
only present it to them in the easiest way imaginable and let
them make up their own mind..
No matter what, the fact of the matter is, if your customer
doesn’t make money, 90 percent of the time, it’s not your
fault. It’s either his own fault since he purchases and never
does anything; or he purchases and tries to implement
although he lacks the technical knowledge (which you
cannot control). So he needs to purchase another course
that will teach him the technical side of things or hire an
outsourcer that will do this for him.
Either way, your conscience should be clean if you
promote many products all the time, as long as you
promote genuinely well written products and not Junk,
in which case, I’m not going to stand by your side 

Nic: Yes. I know you tend to get review copies sent to you
as I do now. So it gives us a chance to go through the
material and write an honest email to your list and perhaps a
blog post or whatever. So I think it is important to promote
products that you – even if you’ve only sort of skim read,
(you can’t possibly get through all of them) find worthy.
14

But even if you’ve at least looked it over and got a sense of
what it offers and it also reflects in your email, in your blog
post, your review, whatever you’re doing, the fact that you’ve
actually looked at that product. You’re not just going on
hearsay.
Igor: Yes, definitely. I mean back at the time when I was
starting out, I wanted to stand out from the crowd when
promoting ClickBank products because at the time, this was
my main income stream.
I was promoting them as an affiliate to my list and so what I
used to do, I used to visit the WarriorForum and at the time,
it just opened up a brand new forum. It was titled “Product
Reviews and Ratings”. And so every time a new ClickBank
system was released, all I had to do is just wait a few hours
and then I would go and check out the thread with the
reviews from warriors who already purchased it.
So for example if I was promoting “Auto Profit Formula” , I
visit the WarriorForum. I would type the “auto profit formula”
keyword in the search box and I would read the thread titled
“Auto Profit Formula Review”.
Many people would go and ask, “What is this? Is it worthy of
investing the money?” and eventually within a few hours,
someone would just go and buy and then post an honest
review of the product.
This way, you could actually see if it was just another
ClickBank scam, which at the time was 50%-50% chance.
Now as soon as I could find a positive review, such as: “I got
30 videos and software. There’s training on how to use the
software. The software is supposed to get you traffic from
twitter. I did not use it yet but I’m going through the videos
now and it’s really easy to understand. I’m planning to start
using it tomorrow morning.”After a review like that where it
says what it is (most of the time, you’d get “blind copy” so
you don’t really know what you’re purchasing until you
purchase it).
Now I could email my list and say: “This new software has
just been released. I’ve been reading the reviews and here’s
what the guy is saying about it…” and I could just quote the
whole review and I would say: “if you want to purchase it,
15

please do. Here’s my link; and as an extra bonus, if you
purchase through my link and forward me a copy of your
receipt to dot, dot, dot, I will email you a free report I’ve
written a few days ago about dot, dot, dot” and the free
report should be somehow related to the topic or the product
you’re promoting.
So if you’re promoting a twitter software, write a short report
on “15 Proven Tweet Formulas That Get You Clicks” etc…
Nic: Sure.
Igor: You drive the sale through the free bonus and through
the review and I’m sure there aren’t many marketers (even
today) that do this. I mean most of them just blindly promote
the product they get.
Nic: Yes. How do you use bonuses in your email marketing
as an incentive? If you buy from my link, send me the
receipt. I will send you X, Y, Z.
Igor: Pretty much what you just said. I mean you just tell
them out loud that this is your link and they should purchase
through it. If they decide to purchase you will send them a
free bonus which is dot, dot, dot.
It can be a report that complements the product. It can be a
set of 20 PLRs. It can be a free coaching session with you. If
you got your own product, you can just give a free copy of
your product and I’ve seen this. I mean I’ve seen people give
away as much as $2000 worth of products for a $47 affiliate
product just so they could refer more sales and win an
affiliate contest.
Nic: Yes.
Igor: Bonus never hurts. You know what? Even if you don’t
make more sales, you won’t make less. So a bonus is
something worth investing your time in and what you can do
is, if you know that product is launching within two weeks
from now, you can just go to the WarriorForum and hire
someone to write you two articles for five bucks each, put
them into a PDF and present it as a complementary report
they get if they purchase through your link. It’s very easy. It’s
cheap and this tiny investment pays big dividends if you do it
right.
16

Nic: Yes. Where would you go for news of launches and so
on? Are you talking about WarriorForum?
Igor: As far as I know, you’ve got JVNotifyPro.com which is
like the biggest launch community. So if any big product is
launching anytime soon, it will be posted there. You can go
and Google the term “product launch alert” or “product
launch announcements”. You can check around the
WarriorForum review and ratings because often the buzz
about a product starts way before it launches.
You can easily find out what’s the hottest product that’s
launching within the next few days and it gives you plenty of
time to either write a report or outsource the report or
prepare yourself for launch.
Nic: Yes. That’s a really good idea. So going on the theme of
trust, if we just talk a little bit about building the list by means
of ad swapping. If people don’t know what that is, it’s
basically finding someone you can do a swap with and if
that’s to say you get them there, you give them your email so
that they can send your email to their list and vice versa
hence the word “swap”. So with swaps, Igor, what’s your
view on that and how you go about them?
Igor: What do you mean exactly? I mean there are lots of
aspects to ad swaps.
Nic: In terms of picking the right people to do the swaps
with because you’re running a risk of dealing with somebody
who might be offering rubbishy sort of offers and emails,
which of course if you just sent out as is would start to
damage your reputation. The pretense of the whole thing is
that you’re sending the email to your list and it’s your email.
Igor: Exactly. If you swap, if you know what it is, first of all
you got to know that you need to have your own list to do it.
So if you’re someone who’s brand new and you haven’t got
a list yet, this is not for you.
First, you got to build up your list to at least a thousand
people. Any way you can do it running a free order special
offer or maybe purchasing a solo ads from either Nic or
Myself or someone else; but when it comes to swaps, there
are a few things you got to do.
17

First, you can’t afford to be lazy and just mail everything as
is. You got to check out the page the other person gives you.
So if needs be done, you make him change offers.
Ad swap means -- I give my offer with my email swipe to you
and you give me your offer with your email swipe and the
first thing I do is I check on your page. I opt in to see what
the content is, what the sales process is and if whether this
whole thing is a good fit for my list.
I have got to make sure that the page looks at least half
decent. I mean we can’t send out an ugly page that’s not
structured, with lots of typos and the horrible graphics to
your list. Sending out crap like that says a lot about you as a
marketer.
Also, I got to make sure the content is solid. We don’t want
to send out outdated crappy information to our list. If your ad
swap partner delivers quality for you and your list than you
can go ahead consider sending out his swipe. And ALWAYS
feel free to edit his swipe and inject some personality in it, to
make it seems as if it was coming from you.
For example, I’ll mention what day of the week it is. I will talk
about my family. I will say I’m very tired today or that
yesterday was just crazy because I didn’t get any work done.
Pretty much just try and make this email, this promotion, an
extension of “you” and not your swap partner’s… And last
but not least, if you swap, you will get generic email swipes,
as I like to call them, where it just says “A free gift and link
below,” like that.
Subject lines of this sort show no personality. No character.
They deliver pretty much no value and that’s sort of what you
got to look out for -- you can accidentally devalue yourself in
the eyes of your list.
Lots of people believe that you can kill your list with ad
swaps but it’s only if you do it wrong (as with anything else
related to list building.)
The problem is ad swappers are not personal enough.
If you swap, you got to give them a little bit of yourself. Give
them a reason. Nobody likes a guy who sends emails for the
18

sake of sending emails. We hate spam. So you have got to
come up with a reason why you’re emailing them on
Thursday at 4:00 PM with a link to a squeeze page.
It must be because this link is either good or helpful or you
received a question from another subscriber asking for help
in this specific niche or sub-niche or area of marketing and
so, you wanted to help. Sounds much better, right?
Nic: Yes, absolutely. I also find that a lot of people that I do
swaps with, they’re very lazy with their copy. They don’t
actually say what the ebook is about. They will just say “this
fantastic ebook” or “this brilliant ebook” or they will hype it up
and they won’t even describe what it is or what the benefit is
even if I click on this link.
I find it really poor that people send you swipes with very
little effort and you just think, well, if I’m looking at this, I’m
not really likely to open it or click on the link rather even if the
subject line might make me open it; and I think it’s important
to, like you say, inject with the personality and also to be a
bit specific at least as to why somebody should click on that
link. What’s the benefit of doing so?
Igor: Yes. But then again, as we mentioned at the beginning
of this call, many people, and I mean really lots and lots of
people, they never do it right. They never get it because they
never stop and think about it. They never grow while the true
marketer (the marketer we all want to become eventually),
he is constantly evolving and if you have been using these
subject lines, you can always stop using them and reignite
the passion with your list. Remove the dead part of your list.
Delete them or unsubscribe them and just start fresh.
You can run another series of promotions and get more
people to opt in and you can always start fresh but the fact of
the matter is you don’t have to do it like others are doing it.
You should stand out. You can make money with a small
list. You can make money with swaps. You can pretty much
make money with everything but you got to find the solid
workable strategy that you can adopt. So like Nic said, you
want your subscribers to pay attention!
That’s the goal. So next time you send out a promotion to
your JV partner’s product that pays $47 per sale, you want
them to pay attention.
19

You want them to click on that link in the email because you
said they should. And you can only do it, by constantly
influencing them with your personality. And it doesn’t matter
if it’s a follow-up email or one time broadcast.
Nic: Sure. In terms of emails that you send out and
communication with your list, do you ever run what might be
called a subseries? So in a follow-up series, maybe seven
days almost like a course maybe taking them through certain
aspects of copy or do you just stick with broadcasts on the
whole?
Igor: Well, I used to suggest broadcasts but lately I started
experimenting a little bit more I’m starting to deploy follow-
ups in my marketing. So today, if you opt in to one of my
lists, you will get a seven-day follow-up from me. And it’s not
delivering free content. No.
As I previously mentioned, I’m going to make sure to do
everything I can to make you become a customer of mine
because an average customer needs from seven to nine
promotions before he decides to purchase.
So if someone is not buying from the first time around, I will
send out a few more emails and try to sell them again. If they
don’t buy in a few days, I will then present them on a
discounted offer for the same product or maybe with an extra
bonus or what not; and so, I’m going to try and convert them
into a customer rather than a free subscriber.
When you become a customer, then I also send out
broadcasts. Why? Because I don’t find it necessary to have
a follow-up. I mean I can afford to sit down and invest a few
minutes every day to email my customers with whatever is
happening in my life today. So even if I’m not promoting
anything, I will email something personal, sharing a story or
sharing doubts and feelings.
The other day I emailed my customers saying I was sitting at
a local café while my wife was shopping and it was really
cold outside. I sent an email entitled, “I’m cold,” in big, bold
capital letters saying that she left me here all alone and I’m
freezing my ass off and that I just wanted to remind you one
more time to take advantage of my special offer link.
That’s it.
20

Nic: Yes.
Igor: And I made like 20 sales from that email by being
personal. Even an irrelevant personal detail helps to drive
the sale. What the heck do they care if I’m cold and where
am I right now? I mean they shouldn’t and this seemingly
unimportant detail shouldn’t even be mentioned when you’re
selling something on the internet, right? You can be on the
other part of the universe for all they care.
Nic: Yes.
Igor: But …
Nic: It makes you more like a friend, doesn’t it?
Igor: Yes, exactly.
Nic: That’s the difference between good email marketing
and a corporation sending out stuff like Sky or Virgin which is
not obviously as personal.
Igor: Yes. It makes you stand out from all these guys that
you mentioned who send our rubbish emails with the weird
names and weird swipes, right?
Nic: Yes.
Igor: You stand out because the only way you can stand out
from a crowd of 100,000 other people trying to make money
with emails is to share a little bit about yourself in every
email. So they have a chance to fall in love with you, to be
friends with you.
Think about it for a second. You got a friend. You got to
know his interests and things about him that his non-friends
don’t know. If I’m friends with Nic, I know his thoughts. I
know his approaches. I know his beliefs. I know his take on
this and his take on that. I can discuss news with him. I know
he’s from London. I know his football preferences, the
football club he’s cheering for, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
That makes me a friend! It’s not because I’m living next door
to him. It’s because I know him. So when you share
personal details about yourself with your list, you make them
feel as if they know you and they trust you and you become
21

a friend and not just a marketer. A friend-marketer will make
much more sales than a non-friend marketer.
Nic: Yes. I totally agree with that and that sort of ties into
what we’re saying about trust, doesn’t it? Your friends are
your friends because you trust them. Well, that’s part of it, a
big part of it should we say.
Igor: Yes.
Nic: Good. Well, we’ve been talking for some time now. I
think we should wrap it up and we’ve covered a lot of ground
here. I hope people have enjoyed the interview and have got
something especially after this theme that we’ve covered,
trust; and we’ll see you in the next one or you’ll be hearing
from us, shall we say. OK.
Igor: Always a pleasure.
Nic: Where can we go to find out more about you and how to make a
full-time income with list building?
Igor: If you’d like to know how I’ve helped 24 people make a $3,000.00
per month using my *weird* list building tactics, check out this page.
Nic: Thank you!
Igor: Feel free to check out the resources below as well, I’m sure these
will help you achieve greater levels of success and growth in your
business.
Click To Discover Why Over 600 Warriors
Rave About Igor’s Solo Ads
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