http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/behindtheveil   Interview with Jennie Douglass Taylor November 8, 1993 Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South Tarboro (N.C.) I n t e r v i e w e r : Paul Ortiz I D : btvnc03037 I n t e r v i e w N u m b e r : 3 4 4 SUGGESTED CITATION Interview with Jennie Douglass Taylor (btvnc03037), interviewed by Paul Ortiz, Tarboro (N.C.), November 8, 1993, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries. Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South An oral history project to record and preserve the living memory of African American life during the age of legal segregation in the American South, from the 1890s to the 1950s. ORIGINAL PROJECT Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University (1993-1995)   COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African American History and Culture at the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library The materials in this collection are made available for use in research, teaching and private study. Texts and recordings from this collection may not be used for any commercial purpose without prior permission. When use is made of these texts and recordings, it is the responsibility of the user to obtain additional permissions as necessary and to observe the stated access policy, the laws of copyright and the educational fair use guidelines. Jenny Taylor interviewed by Paul Ortiz, Tarboro, NC JT: It may be if you asked me questions. Oh, I can give you the information that you want. Maybe better than if I just talk. PO: OK JT: Cause I can talk like most women, Ya know, I may not be on to subjects. PO: So, Mrs. Taylor, you were born in Charlotte? JT: In, Charlotte, I was born in Charlotte, NC uh. My father, at the time, was professor of mathematics at what was then Biddle University - a Presbyterian college established by the Presbyterian Board out of Pittsburgh. It was called the Presbyterian Church North. Uh, and uh, I went to the public schools there until my father sent me down to Atlanta University in high school. I think the last two years of high school I went to Atlanta University and completed and then on through college. But Atlanta University was one of the schools established by the American Missionary Association, and the purpose of the establishment of these schools or the purpose of the Association was to provide education for the freed slaves and their families and children. So, uh, I finished Atlanta University College in 1929, but I finished high school then went on to college. PO: Now, before you went to college, um what was Charlotte like? JT: Well, Charlotte, at that time, was really the largest city we had in NC. It was r.

1. http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/behindtheveil
Interview with Jennie Douglass Taylor
November 8, 1993
Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South
Tarboro (N.C.)
I n t e r v i e w e r : Paul Ortiz
I D : btvnc03037
I n t e r v i e w N u m b e r : 3 4 4
SUGGESTED CITATION
Interview with Jennie Douglass Taylor (btvnc03037),
interviewed by Paul Ortiz, Tarboro (N.C.), November 8,
1993, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in
the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John
Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries.
Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim
Crow South
An oral history project to record and preserve the living
memory of African American

2. life during the age of legal segregation in the American South,
from the 1890s to the
1950s.
ORIGINAL PROJECT
Center for Documentary Studies at Duke
University (1993-1995)
COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE
John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African
American History and Culture
at the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library
The materials in this collection are made available for use in
research, teaching and private study. Texts and recordings from
this collection may not be used for any commercial purpose
without prior permission. When use is made of these texts and
recordings, it is the responsibility of the user to obtain
additional permissions as necessary and to observe the stated
access
policy, the laws of copyright and the educational fair use
guidelines.
Jenny Taylor interviewed by Paul Ortiz, Tarboro, NC
JT: It may be if you asked me questions. Oh, I can give you

3. the information that you want. Maybe better than if I just
talk.
PO: OK
JT: Cause I can talk like most women, Ya know, I may not be
on
to subjects.
PO: So, Mrs. Taylor, you were born in Charlotte?
JT: In, Charlotte, I was born in Charlotte, NC uh. My father,
at the time, was professor of mathematics at what was then
Biddle University - a Presbyterian college established by
the Presbyterian Board out of Pittsburgh. It was called
the Presbyterian Church North. Uh, and uh, I went to the
public schools there until my father sent me down to
Atlanta University in high school. I think the last two
years of high school I went to Atlanta University and
completed and then on through college. But Atlanta
University was one of the schools established by the
American Missionary Association, and the purpose of the
establishment of these schools or the purpose of the
Association was to provide education for the freed slaves
and their families and children. So, uh, I finished
Atlanta University College in 1929, but I finished high
school then went on to college.
PO: Now, before you went to college, um what was Charlotte
like?
JT: Well, Charlotte, at that time, was really the largest city

4. we had in NC. It was rather progressive. I lived right on
the border of SC, but it was segregated; and we went to the
segregated schools. Uh, I went to several schools because
they determined which school you would go to, and the
schools that my brother went to were down in what we called
Biddleville, and it was sort of a one or two-room school
with just maybe two teachers. It was typical of that type
of education at the time when the teacher had all of the
grades that ran from one through to seven or eight. She
had all the grades, and she'd teach this group a little
while then the older children had to help take care of the
younger children. But the teachers were dedicated and
wanted to help the children get a good education and so
they worked very hard. They didn't think about how much
time they were putting in. But I went to, the first school
I went to was over in Greenville, we called it Greenfield.
But, I had to go across the campus on Biddle University,
up a road, down a railroad track along the ? side of that
and then finally to the school, but it was a new school -
they just built that school. It had about six rooms. I
remember that, and then I had to pass what you would call -
what would you call it now where the trash pile - where
they dumped all the refuge from the town there and then it
was burning all the time. I can just smell it now. But I
took something called whooping cough. Came down with that
and once you got whooping cough, you lost the year because
it just lingered so long and it was dangerous, and it was
highly contagious and so the child had to stay home. So I
lost that year. So the next year, they both said we had to
go to Myers Street School. Now, Myers Street School was
about three miles from where I lived, and I had to walk
that distance. But my mother always saw to it that there
was some older girl to accompany me so I went on over to

5. Myers Street, and this school had been a white school, but
they were giving it over to the negroes. But, as I see the
school now, it had started as a smaller thing and had been
constantly added to. No real plan to the school. And uh,
I did my first grade there. Now, I did first, second and
third, I can remember that. I'm not sure about where I
went to the fourth and fifth and things like that. But it
was such a distance to walk and things were so tight, I
naturally, even though finally they got street cars and it
would cost me only a nickel to ride over there, it was hard
to get a nickel. So, we had to walk and uh, I remember
riding on the back of the buggy. Another girl in the first
grades' father had a buggy. He did cement work. So she
lived above me, and she would come by in this buggy, but
the father and the man working with him would be sitting on
the seat and we had to stand on the back of it and I don't
remember any top on it. But we would just hold on to the
seat in front, and there they would go, this horse pulling
the thing. But I remember that because it was a big help to
get that three miles over there. And uh, we had a........
cause I remember in the seventh grade, we did a lot of
memorizing of poetry and speeches of former presidents and
then they made a big thing out of it - some of them related
to black uh, famous blacks like Frederick Douglas and
people of that nature. And somehow or another all along,
they were always training me to speak and uh. Then we
would have contests and uh then not only would we have that
type of orations, but we would have to do long poems. And
I was in a contest uh I remember that now, and uh, I came
out second but my mother always felt I should have been
first. But they gave it to a boy, they gave it to an old
boy cause he was a boy and I was a girl. But I enjoyed
that, I liked that and it had been very helpful to me

6. because so much of my work has been in front of the public
and having to do that type of thing. So there was a lot of
extra work the teachers did.
PO: Now you mentioned Charlotte was a segregated town.
What
was it like growing up in Charlotte? What was the black
community like?
JT: Well, I guess I lived on a college campus born very near
the campus. My father owned a house. Then the university
gave all of the professors homes to live in. They didn't
give it to them, but this was rather than to give more
money for salary, they gave them this home. So I was
living in the university house on a university campus so
you see, we were really segregated ourselves; but it was of
a different class from what I call Biddleville. See, the
college was Biddleville, and down below it, the college was
the Biddle, but down below it was Biddleville. That's
where I think the poorer people than we were and less
educated ya know. They had not had the opportunities that
we had.
PO: So, would it be fair to say you had a separate community?
JT: Yes. And uh, but as I recall, you didn't have what you
have now. Kind of places where they are killing each other
and carrying on. People were just poor, and most of them
worked for whites and I'd see mothers passing my house
going down below me just down the other side is what they

7. called Seabersville, and uh. It was named for the Seabers.
They were Germans. I remember there were three brothers
and uh, they were all merchants. But, those were what we
would call at that time the poor crackers. Like the poor
blacks down. But you see, we're sitting in the middle of
this thing. We're the university folk. We had more
privileges I think, than they had. Uh, but now way across
town, I went to this Myers Street School. That's where you
had a different element of blacks, and they had one street
there where they called Second Street. And that's where
blacks used to hang out. I was told don't ever walk on
Second Street coming home from school. I must go First
Street and then a certain way. My father didn't want me to
come into contact with the folks on Second Street. You did
find some black businesses there and the theater and on the
corner uh, I can see the library, the first ? library. I
guess that was one of the few we had in the South facing
the other street though, it wasn't right on Second Street.
But, uh, that's where you got a lot of ruckus ya know.
Just that little area, and yet, all over this part of
Charlotte was called Brooklyn I believe. And there were
nice people, nice families living say over there just that
little area, that little portion of Second Street was so
bad. Then they sent me over to another part of town - it
was in First Ward. That was the new school they had built.
They built it down at a holler, and there was a branch
running through there, and I remember the mosquitos when we
first went in the fall of the year. The mosquitos were
terrible. Um Um Um Because I guess there was a lot of
stagnant water say around. But now, in elementary school -
in going to Myers Street School, just about four blocks
from me was the white school - elementary school - brick
school. But I had to pass that to go beyond that those

8. three miles to get to the black school.
PO: How do you feel about that?
JT: I never could understand that. I would ask my mother why I
had to go so far when there's students. I would see the
children out there playing and uh, she would try to explain
it, but it was very painful, you see, for her and uh. The
only time I've ever been called niger in my life was right
in that area where the Seabersville. I had gone with my
father and the other children to see a parade, the circus,
I guess Barnum and Bailey circus was in town. And we went
uptown, and I got lost in the crowd because more people
would go to that. And when I looked around, I couldn't
find my father or anybody. And when I didn't have any
money to get on the streetcar, my sense of direction told
me to go to the square and turn that way and keep going.
So I did and see, I had a long ways to walk as a little
girl. And when I got into Seabersville, I could see this
children playing there. And all I was doing was - I was
scared to death to start off with - and then they started
calling me niger. That did upset me, and I think I shed a
few tears. But I walked on and went on - I knew where I
was then and I got home and my mother was at home. She
didn't go. She was sitting at the machine sewing and I
told her what had happened - so she tried to comfort me and
let me know that they didn't know what they were talking
about - that there was not a niger - that no such thing as
that ya know and so forth. And uh, I was a nice little
girl. But that's the only time I've ever been called niger
in my life.

9. PO: And when you walked by the school ... usually... was there
... (unclear)?
JT: There was a big fence around the school - big fence around
the school. And the children, the little white children
were on the inside of the fence, and I don't remember them
saying anything to them, at least they didn't say anything
to me - whether they said anything to the other children or
not, I don't know.
PO: What was your family like? Were you living ....
JT: Well, with five children I had a brother and two sisters,
had two brothers but the two younger children were sort of
spread far apart. Three of us came a year, nine months
apart then about five years elapsed then another one, then
about five more years elapsed then another one. But uh, we
were a good family. We loved each other and wanted to take
care of each other and my mother - my father had bought up
some property. At that time, there wasn't any much place
for a black man to invest even though ... stock market -
with the little bit of money he had - he wouldn't have
trusted it there. But, they would, they could buy
property. It seemed at though, I know my father's real
estate agent encouraged him to buy property and in some
cases, the real estate agent, if it was auctioned, he would
go and buy it for my father because he was afraid that
maybe they would not buy it - or sell it to my daddy. So
he was fighting, and he would go ahead and he would buy it.
but of course, when he settled, he put my father's name and

10. everything on it. So that way, he bought up say uh right
much property. But what was it now. And that was to be
for our education for his children's education and that was
its purpose. And all of those men, those professors at
Johnson C. Smith Univ. - all those older men - that is the
way they invested their money. See, the board gave them a
house to live in and my father was making $75 dollars a
month. We were fairing so much better than other people -
$75 a month for year round - 12 months - and most school
teachers when they taught a little - they taught maybe
about - at that time they were teaching not more than five
or six months. So were fairing much better.
PO: Do you remember your grandparents?
JT: I never saw my father's people. But I saw my mother's
father. My mother's mother died in child birth and so she
was dead before I was born. But my mother's father was
living. I've got this picture.
PO: So, your father was a barber.
JT: My grandfather was a barber. His name was George Wayne
McLain. And the story goes where he is concerned uh in
Camden his he had a friend I've heard it two ways. But, he
had a friend that was a physician in New Jersey. And he
was a doctor - George Wayne McLain. But he came down to
visit this Colonel somebody - he was a Colonel from the
Civil War. Uh, and when he came to visit them, the uh the

11. colonel was trying to entertain him, and they had as you
know, they had slaves that some would what they called
house terminology they termed house niggers. And then some
would work in fields. Well, I don't have the any of those
pictures. they got taken away. But his mother as I
understand it was the daughter of the owner. You see, the
mother was the house slaves. And so she had this child uh
well she had a child - a girl and so when the doctor came
down, and to entertain the doctor, uh, they gave him this
girl to sleep with. as I said, it was a reunion where I
had to do this. they didn't have the movie houses and the
TV and the this and the that for entertainment - so to
entertain him, the owner gave to the doctor this girl - but
this girl was really his daughter as I understand. And so
grandpa came out of that union. And there must be
something to it too because now he lived over this way -
his house is facing that way - and they went over to this
other street, which was Littleton Street, and he later
after grandpa married, he gave this property with a ditch
running through there - and from that ditch he gave all
that property to grandpa. And he still say lived over - he
faced that way - and then grandpa had a man working him
they called Uncle Billy. and it seemed as though this
owner just sort of included grandpa's family in - they was
always doing things for him. And this is the this was the
first family reunion we had. And you can look there - you
can see - so grandpas dead a long time ago before that.
PO: did you remember - did he tell any stories?
JT: Well, uh I don't remember his telling any stories. Well to

12. tell you the truth about grandpa - grandpa was more white
than he was colored. and he associated with the white men
in Camden. And when they went off fishing, they would go
off on fishing trips and so forth. And uh, so it wasn't
that kind of relationship. Really grandpa - was more white
than he was colored.
PO: Did that ever - I mean - how did that work with your
parents - what was the relationship?
JT: Well, he was in - grandpa was in Camden, SC. My father
was
in Charlotte. But I remember Grandpa was always concerned
about his children and uh he sent he sent us a goat. How
on earth that goat got there - it seems to me I can see it
coming in on a buggy. But he was concerned about the
health of the children. And he would milk the goat - then
I had a little brother - he was constantly sending us
something from Camden of that nature. Anybody that came
from Camden was coming to Charlotte - would send some
vegetables or something. But I don't know him as far as
race is concerned. And we had uncle George and Uncle Jimmy
Uncle Johnny - and those were the three brothers. I've got
their picture somewhere.
PO so, did your parents - when your grandfather was sending
vegetables - how was that perceived by your parents?
JT: When he would send that?
PO: Yea

13. JT: Well, we were happy to get it - we appreciated it. And I
know my mother would go down at intervals to visit - to go
back to Camden to visit - to spend some time with him. And
then they would send us down there. I remember my brother
and I going down there. Uh - especially if there was any
fellows in Biddle at the end of the year - they would take
this little train - Southern Railroad - and they would send
us by them - and they would - the other sisters and all
would take care of us. That is to help relieve my mother
so she wouldn't have as much to do. They were very caring
of each other.
PO: Now, how about your grandfather's wife?
JT: Well, the first wife died. Now the first wife, this is the
story I heard. Uh, grandpa used to pass the place where he
saw these two pretty little girls uh in the back yard of
this particular place. They were slaves. But say ,
Grandpa said if he ever made enough money, he was gonna buy
this girl And he did. So that was his first wife. he
bought one of them. And uh, I can't think of the names
now. i don't have that, I should have that. Uh, and so
that's the one that died in child birth.
PO: He bought her out of slavery?
JT: Yes, He bought her out of slavery.

14. PO: So his second wife was from Orangeburg?
JT: Was from Orangeburg. But it was sort of an interesting
family. And now, momma doesn't have anything on there,
does she? But this is when she is a young girl young
woman, and uh, my father and mother met at SC State
College. Momma uh was teaching uh, let's see - early
childhood education we would call it what, Kindergarten
now. Now see, this is way back there. And uh, she went to
New York. Ever heard of New York Shatakwa? The way I see
it, they sort of uh - more like a workshop we would have.
But they would have this every summer. She had finished
Browning Home. That was the private school financed run by
? Methodist Church - white - they established it there.
And so she would go up there - New York, and learn took
courses and studied this - and so when the SC legislature
gave the blacks a school - a college, my father and my
mother were on the faculty. Uh, trying to think uh old man
Tom Miller - if you go to SC, you will want to get some
info on Thomas Miller. My father always spoke of him as
old man Tom Miller. That's why I say that. But, he was
the first president of SC STATe. Now he was during the
period of Reconstruction, old man Tom miller was in the
legislature. You know about that period. You read about
that period. And uh, so then when the whites were trying
to take things back, they were sort of paying the blacks
off you know, and so they asked Old Man Tom Miller what did
he want? And he said he wanted a college for the negroes.
so they gave it to him. And this is Orangeburg State, I
guess - University now. They all - that's in Orangeburg,
SC. and uh, my father and mother were on their first
faculty. And then

15. PO: What do you know about .....
JT: Well, momma and pappa married in 1903 - January 1904.
So
that must have been in the very early part of the century
or the last part of the other century.
PO: I was curious about some other parts of your childhood.
What were your playmates like?
JT: Most of my playmates were other professors' children. And
uh, but we did play some of the village children. As I
look back at it now, our parents were very steady - very
careful about our associations you see. but uh, we had a
good group of children because the - there wasn't such
thing as birth control and all of the professors had a
whole lot of children - so we had plenty of kids on the
campus to play with and some of the children from the
village uh - but we made those friends in school. There
was plenty to play with. Good wholesome relationships.
and we went to the football games on the campus, the
baseball games, basketball hadn't come in then. But uh,
then my father used to play with us - ... on the campus
would play with us - they'd play ball and so forth.
Father's don't have time now, I guess - but they would play
with us.
PO: Who made the decisions in the family?

16. JT: Well, my father - he was definitely the head of the house.
But now, I heard him say this, if he bought a piece of
property - I heard him say, I would never buy a piece of
property without taking my wife with me. It's not that she
knows anything about business, but she has a woman's
intuition -and if she said Dad, I wouldn't buy that, he
said, I never touched it. Can you beat that? She has a
woman's intuition. And that directed him to leave that
alone.
PO: So, who made the budgeting decisions?
JT: Well they worked together on that. I think they worked
together on that because my mother did not work to start
off with. She did not work until I think I got to about
the eighth grade and then we had these two little - one
little boy and one little girl. And she went out into the
rural area to teach. And it wasn't so that you could get
in a car this morning and go out there like they do now.
But she had to go out and live - and housing conditions
were very poor, especially in the county - and I've often
thought about what a sacrifice she made. Papa had sort of
overloaded himself with property and needed to pay for it -
so she went to help him pay for this property. And uh, I
can remember that, and then she gave me the little, no she
gave me the girl to be my child and the little boy was to
be my sister's child. We were to take care of them. they
had a woman who came during the day who did the cleaning
and the cooking, but now when I got home from school, I was
supposed to take care of my little sister. See to it that

17. she was fed, bathed. So, uh, we did very well. But that
was - in that day, everybody had to work together.
PO: What kind of values did your parents bring you up with and
did you - what were you raised with?
JT: Well, you did not tell a lie. That was - oh, that was just
one of the worst things in the world that you could do. I
can't think of just what this was now about some insurance
I took out. And my father thought I had told a lie to the
insurance agent. It turned out that I hadn't, but oh, you
just didn't do that. You tell the truth. And if - of
course they used to whip us every time - and you had to be
in house - if you went out to play - you had to be in
before the lights came on. They were very strict. I don't
know if you know anything about the Presbyterian Church or
not. Oh, it's very strict. They just lay the law down, do
this, ya know, do that. And you don't steal. you don't
lie. Oh, where values were concerned, they really taught
us that, so much so now until I can't stand for anybody to
lie to me. Just to tell me that your going to do a certain
thing and don't do it, that really vexes me. And I think
very little of that person. You know, they don't live up
to what they said they were going to do because that's the
way I came up. If you commit yourself, you do that or you
die trying. Not only did I get that from my parents, but I
went to Atlanta Univ. - that was the same thing. In
Atlanta University the faculty were composed of New England
whites who had come down from the American Missionary
Assoc. to help the salves and the children of the slaves.

18. So, very strict. Oh, the moral were very strict. Um Um Um
PO: Were there any modifications or changes that you made?
JT: No, I think I stuck to that. And my daughter told me just
recently something that she had encountered - She's making
her children stick to the same thing.
PO: Now, you were going to Atlanta University - what was
Atlanta University like?
JT: Atlanta University was one of the most prominent black
colleges. Atlanta University - no that would - I'm
thinking about American Missionary Association Schools.
but, we were considered to be the elite of the black
colleges. Now, Dubois, you've heard of W.E. Dubois, taught
at Atlanta University. He was not there when I was there,
but that's the caliber of person. And so many of the
professors we had while I was there came from the New
England schools. What is that school that Dr. Adams came
from? But, I know, one year, we had somebody there from -
one fellow from Yale, one from Syracuse Univ., one from
Harvard. We called him the four horsemen. Wow, they was
tough fellows. but they had just finished college. They
didn't have master's degrees yet. But uh, they did pile
the work on us. But it was high class. They gave us the
best.
PO: What was it like to make the transition from Charlotte to

19. Atlanta University? Were you apprehensive about the
change?
JT: I don't think so. I don't remember that. Oh, I remember
going down there - I think they put me on a train in
Charlotte and I had to travel at night, and I'd get to
Atlanta the next morning about 5:00 or 6:00. Now, the
conductor took me out of the black coach and put me in the
coach back of that and in that coach, as I recall, there
were some foreigners. I don't remember what nationality
they were. But why - for what reason he took me out of the
black coach and put me back there, I don't know. Now that
's way back yonder. But because I was fair in color or
something of that nature, he wouldn't even let me stand.
He took me back there with these foreigners. And then, uh,
what got me about it was I didn't know what they were
saying. You see, they were speaking a different language.
But fortunately, since it was at night, I soon fell
asleep. When I awakened, it was time to get off in
Atlanta. But I adjusted very well. It didn't bother me a
bit. Because I make friends easily and so I soon had folks
that I was having a good time with.
PO: Now did you spend, I don't know much about life at Atlanta
University, was most of your time on campus., etc?
JT: But, uh, most of our time was spent on campus. And I do
remember uh, they wanted us to see the condition of our

20. people - this is the way I figured it out. Sunday
mornings, we would go walking - but you had to be
chaperoned. And when we went to town, we had to be
chaperoned - you know, in groups of ten. but, in walking
around Atlanta, - you've been to Atlanta, you know where
Fair Street is,
PO: I've been down by....
JT: You've been on the other side. Well, near our campus, see
I'm talking about the old Atlanta University? What's there
now is the new Atlanta University. Do you know where
Morris Brown College is?
PO: Yea.
JT: All right, that was - the buildings that are there now -
all of those buildings were not there when I was there -
but that was the old Atlanta University campus.
PO: Now, at Morris Brown back in those days, was the men's
college.
JT: No, I think Morris Brown's always been co-ed.
PO: Co-ed, OK.
JT: Morehouse was male. Spelman was female. We were co-
ed.

21. Clark was co-ed. And we had a whole lot of colleges there.
they brought them all - put them all together. But uh, I
enjoyed - we had a beautiful campus, and we had good
teachers - good library and they kept us busy and uh we had
different types of organizations on campus. The YWCA at
that time, was a good strong, moral building organization
and I served my students there. I served two years as
president. And uh, they used to send me off to represent
them in different places, ya know and uh then we would go -
the YWCA would have its national convention in Talaedca .
Did you ever hear of Howard Thurmond and Sue Bailey
Thurmond?
PO: NO
JT: He married Sue Bailey. Sue Bailey was the representative
of the national YWCA for the colleges - the black colleges
and uh these secretaries I believe they called them
secretaries - Benny Mayes was one at one time. But they
would come to the colleges and they would work with the
YWCA, the YMCA. Offered a lot of inspiration. I'm sorry
they're not as strong as they once were. We're losing a
whole lot there because I don't have - very few do we have
- do you see what's happening with YM and YWCA's?
PO: Well, I know actually in Washington they are pretty active.
JT: Pretty active. We've got some over in Rocky Mount. But
uh, we need some good character building organizations for

22. this side.
PO: That's really what the YWCA was - builds character. I'm
curious, now you started talking about your professors who
would take you out on these walks on Sundays.
JT: Oh, the walk, yea uh huh. Yea
PO: And what was that? What was the purpose?
JT: Well, we were getting off the campus and getting a little
exercise, but as I look back at it now, I think they wanted
us to see the condition of people and just to say to us -
you have a job to do. Cause they didn't take us into the
nice parts of town because the negroes have been
progressing in Atlanta and they've made money and they've
built beautiful homes. But they didn't do that. They took
us down in the dives - back over there in Fair Street down
as so forth and so on. You have no idea what it is now
because they have put housing projects and so forth in
there now, but I have figured it out they're saying to us -
they're charging us to do something . about this.
PO: Now, when you were going to Atlanta University, ... ever
come back?
JT: No, I never saw him. -never saw him.

23. PO: But you were mentioning that you and a lot of the
university - they taught you, basically from what I
understand is the ..... black people went to college to
become leaders.
JT: Yea. To lift ... It was an obligation you had. and uh, It
was so instilled in you until you want to do it. Ya know.
I got this little prayer group around here now and I've
tried to give them something uplifting even though most of
them are retired and many of them have not had the
education and so forth. But I tell them they can still
learn - there's still much to learn. You keep on learning
as long as we are here on this earth. And uh, I try to
inspire them to inspire your children and your
grandchildren - to see to it that they go to school and
stay in school. But all that came from Atlanta University
and of course born into .. my father was a professor.
That's all I know. I don't know anything about loitering.
That's a sin. That's a terrible sin to waste your time,
ya know. I guess children don't know anything about that
now. They've got to look at television. My daughters have
a time with their children because they want to look at
television. And she wants to select the things that they
see. She's got a lot of me in her. She's done well for
it, but now I had a little period with her that uh, I guess
that's normal with children. They want to go their way.
But she was talented, and when the North Carolina School of
the Arts opened, she was one of the first students there.
And you don't see too many black children in this type of
dance - classical. You see them in the other types. But
she went there, to classical.

24. PO: What time frame was that?
JT: I was teaching at North Carolina Central, and I went there
in the late 50's, so that's the early 60's, must have been.
PO: Now, when she made that decision, was that something you
agreed with?
JT: Well, from a little thing, she was always dancing. She had
learned on television, and she had seen it so she was just
like a little butterfly dancing around. Well, I had taught
dance. I studied dance at Harvard University, but I didn't
keep it up. But, when I saw her wanting to do this type of
dance, I wanted to encourage her. But I could not find
anybody around here that did that. A girl in Rocky Mount
did organize some kind of little class, but it was not that
type of dance. So, when I was in Durham, and they were
opening the School of the Dance in Winston Salem, I got
busy trying to get her ready to go. There weren't but
about five black children accepted, and she was one of
them.
PO: So when you left Atlanta University, where was your first
job? Where did you go?
JT: I think I went to um Alabama. No I didn't. I didn't go to
Alabama. I went to a little place called Hastings, Florida.

25. I went because I couldn't get a job in NC. Uh, they
didn't have many high schools for blacks in NC. I was put
there to teach in the high schools. And my sister, where's
that little place in NC, but she took sick with
appendicitis, so my father sent me on her job to save her
job. then when she got well enough to go on her job, her I
am sitting up there with no job. But I did get this
message from Hastings, Florida. They didn't open as early
as the others - its' called a potato city. They raise
white potatoes, mostly and sweet potatoes. A potato city.
So I went on down there and stayed the remainder of that
year. And I taught in the high school.
PO: Now.....
JT: It must have been in the fall of 29'. I came out in 29' -
fall of 29; and I stayed until school closed in June.
PO: What were your experiences teaching?
JT: Well, uh, they had a pretty nice building. The children
wanted to learn, they were all poor people - everybody down
there as I can see were poor. I didn't call myself poor in
that respect. Ya know, cause I had come from a different
class of people. But uh, they were ambitious, they wanted
to learn, and I found a lot of talent - a lot of talent.
They could sing, whether they had had any music lessons or
not, they could play - just natural talent. And uh, they
were beginning to play basketball then - I guess even
before then because there was a girl teaching with me and

26. her - she had a brother - was that her brother - yes - well
she was our basketball coach and the olympics when they
were having them in Germany, her brother was one of the
fellows in track, I guess - went to Germany. so they were
conscious about things of that nature. I enjoyed my year
down there. And I could go out and pick the grapefruit off
the tree, the oranges, ya know. And if you went to visit
one of the families, they'd take a whole big branch of just
all these oranges on it -and I'd take over ham or pork.
PO: So they were mainly agricultural workers.
JT: Yea. But you see, that's just um seasonal work, just
seasonal work and I did not like the relationship of whites
and blacks there. The blacks are definitely across this
branch. I don't remember much about the whites, but one
bad experience I remember how or why I went downtown, I
don't know. It was during the day, and the principal had
sent this boy downtown to get the mail or to get something
and somebody said to me that so and so was in jail. That
was one of our students. I said well, where is it. So
this person pointed out, I don't know whether it was a
black person or a white person telling me this , I don't
remember that, but I went there and I could not see the boy
and there was a glass up at the top of this thing, but it
was too high and that must have been an awful type of thing
that they had. And what they had gotten him about was he
was driving the principals's car - the principal had sent
him to do an errand, and they were, they made up something
- just mean. But I have never forgotten that poor boy and
how he was in that awful whole there. Terrible. But yet
they time came to pick potatoes, everybody was picking up
potatoes - little money, didn't make much. um um

27. PO: So from Hastings, Florida, you went back to NC - back to
Charlotte?
JT: No, Well I'd go home in the summer. Where did I go after
Hastings, Florida? Hastings, I was with Florida
Educational System. I believe I went to Charleston, SC to
Avery Institute. That was under the American Missionary
Association. Now, Charleston is high class. You've got
your different sections, ya know. But Charleston is
different from any other place in the world. You ever been
to Charleston?
PO: Yea.
JT: And I enjoyed my experiences in Charleston. I think I must
have been there about two or three years.
PO: Now you were teaching at the Avery Institute? What types
of subjects were you teaching?
JT: I was teaching the 7th grade, and my friend who came from
AU was teaching the 6th grade. So, we set up a sort of
what would you call it a system where she would teach
certain subjects and I would teach certain subjects. So
for her 6th grade, I taught Geography, my 7th grade I
taught German - I can't think of the terminology - and she

28. liked math better than I did , so she took my math class.
PO: So you were team teaching?
JT: No, that's not team teaching. It's another term. It won't
come to me. You're not teaching the same grade. You're
working in the little section here - but you are teaching
certain subjects to both of the grades or the three grades
or what not. So, uh, yea that was in Charleston that I did
that. And I had - I'd had a boy's basketball team there.
Little boys would play some basketball, and I used to take
them traveling.
PO: So you were coaching?
JT: um um - One fellow on that team has been one of the
officers with North Carolina Mutual. Clement I think was
on my team.
PO: So the children at Avery Institute, were they , is it fair
to say they were from a different social class than
children - ....
JT: They had to pay tuition. We had public schools then, but
to come to Avery, you had to pay tuition. Not everybody
could pay tuition. But yet, there were some there who were
poor as they could - but the parents, they wanted the best
for their children. So they, somehow or another, they

29. would get that tuition. Very proud people - Charleston.
Very proud - high class. I enjoyed my stay there. And we
lived right on the campus - 54 Montague Street. I can
remember that beautiful old colonial home. Uh, and the
very basement was where there had been slave quarters -
then up on the first floor was a gorgeous dining room,
living room - a lot of what would you call that - but it
was hand carved - around the walls. And then, the third
floor were our bedrooms and bath then they even had a
fourth floor bedroom up there.
PO: Where did you get your information from in those days?
JT: What do you mean by that?
PO: News
JT: Oh, we had newspapers - yea, the Charleston, what was it? -
the Charleston Paper - most of us would take a newspaper -
we would always have one at the school in the library - but
then we had something else that we don't have now. We had
some black newspapers. One was the Norfolk Journal and
Guide. Uh, I think the Carolina Times - is that still
going out of Raleigh? And the Carolinian out of Durham -
uh, in Charlotte, we had the Afro-American newspaper - it
was published at Johnson C. Smith. Then over town, Mr.
somebody published a paper, but then we called them black
newspapers or negro newspapers. And you got a lot of news
there. Plus, they cared a lot about blacks and individuals
that would inspire other blacks. But we had radios - we
didn't have TV then, but we had radio. The radio, I

30. remember we got that before we left and went down to
University.
PO: Do you read also, the Crisis?
JT: Yes, magazines like the Crisis and ? hadn't come into begin
then. Let's see, the Crisis and what else was that that we
used to have? You think of any other black magazines?
PO: There were many - Journal and Guide
JT: Of course the Journal and Guide was one we - We had to
see
that.
PO: The Defender - out of Chicago
JT: Oh yes. The Chicago Defender. Now the Chicago Defender
-
what's the man's name? Mr. What - um um um ho ho ho - I
don't - Abbott? I believe it was Abbott. I don't know who
was working with him. Uh
PO: I just read about him - but it was...
JT: Abbott, I believe it was. Anyway, Mr. Abbott married by

31. girlfriends' aunt. uh Was that Aunt Ethel - who was that?
um um um - It was the family from Athens, Georgia and he
married one of those - they were all nice and they all
looked like whites. And uh, when I was at A.U., one time
in this room I had there on the second floor, there was a
room to my left and in that room were two girls and they
were nieces of Mr. Abbott's. One was Gwendolyn Sain Stack
- that came to me. I don't know what the other girl's name
was but she was big and fat. The other one was slender.
Very poor looking - but I think he was sending them to
Atlanta University. And uh, they were very quiet. They
didn't mingle with us much. They got their lessons and
graduated. Oh, Gwendolyn Sain Stack. I can't think of the
other one. But that was a very popular newspaper. I guess
its gone out of business now.
PO: What - how about entertainers at that period of time? Were
there people that ...?
JT: Now I heard Marion Anderson and Paul - I've seen Paul
Robeson - what's the other one's name. The other black uh
singer. But in Atlanta, Dr. Adams our faculty member, Dr.
Adams was our president. They wanted us to have the
benefits of all of the good things, even though things were
segregated. And Dr. Adams would take us himself. He would
be the chaperon. So I heard Marion Anderson when I was a
college student in Atlanta the first time. Uh, I don't
remember what Paul Roberson - how he came there. It was in
Atlanta when I saw him, but there's still another one.
Who's the other one? Golden Hayes, Golden Hayes. And the
things we talked about was - we're in this building and
we're up in the gallery and all the white folks are sitting
down here. Yet, these are black entertainers ya know.

32. PO: Golden Hayes was singing?
JT: Yes, I heard Golden Hayes. I heard Marion Anderson. And
Paul Robeson, I don't remember just on what occasion that
was. What about the poet?
PO: um, Langston Hughes
JT: Langston Hughes. I had the privilege of his being my
escort one summer. I was on the faculty at Atlanta
University. He was the visiting professor, and when I got
to Atlanta, they were having this big thing down on Auburn
Avenue - a roof party. Some club was giving. And they had
already - my friends had arranged - for him to be my
escort. So that was something.
PO: It was
JT: But now I look back at it now - but they're not gonna know
that I thought it was so fine. It's more significant now
than it was then.
PO: Did you talk much with him?
JT: He had very little to say. He had very little to say.

33. PO: Most of it was written down on paper, I guess. Yea, I'm a
great admirer of Langston Hughes' works.
JT: Good poet.
PO: Now you - when we talked on the phone, you mentioned
that
you were on one of the first integrated committees in the
State of North Carolina. Could you tell me a little bit
about that?
JT: Uh, Oh I told you, I guess I told you I was with the North
Carolina School Help Coordinating Service. It was not a
committee - it was a staff of blacks and whites. Uh, and
we had there - at first I was the only health educator. Or
did we have two health educators? We had nurses, both
black and white. Directors - Dr. Hughes was the black and
who was the other fellow? He had a PhD in nutrition - and
people didn't know much about nutrition then. Nurses - oh
physical educators. They did not have a black physical
educator. Charlie Spencer was the white and then I can see
this girl now. She was the woman uh but I was the health
educator - Dr. Hughes, Ms. Corbett was the nurse, and Lydia
Lydia Johnson? was the nutritionist and at that time, we
were confined to the black school. But the whites could
come over and work with us. But uh, now all that
information is at the State Board of Health. I'm sure. I
hope they haven't thrown it away. Because it was a pilot
project. Improving the community through the schools. And

34. we had the privilege of um let's say inventing any kind of
program that we so desired to experiment with. I remember
one of the things I did in Goldsboro- I found so many
children there with tonsillitis, adenoids and tonsils.
They taught to screen the children - so in screening the
children - we can find certain things and then we send the
child on to the doctor or nurse and so forth. But once we
found the children with these tonsils and adenoids and ...
the parents couldn't do anything about making corrections.
So, I made up a - I set out and wrote a proposal for an
insurance - a school insurance. I guess I'm the first one
that did it. And uh, we arranged it so that children - the
parents paid so much money, we raised money and we got this
pool of money - then we worked with the doctors and got
some corrections made. I took the plan to the North
Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company. Asa Spaulding -
what was that term now? What was he - what kind of
business person was he? What was his title? Asa Spaulding
had been to the one of the big schools in this field. Um um
um - But he was their specialists. So Mr. CC Spaulding
told me it would have to go through Mr. Asa Spaulding. They
would have to see about it. Anyway, when they wrote me was
- they could not do it - well Asa, said they could not do
it because it would not give any benefits to the company.
It would help the children, but there would be no monies
coming in to the company. So, I wasn't able to get that
through, but yet, it wasn't too long after that when an
insurance company over in High Point started insuring all
of the athletes. The schools could buy insurance from
them. I don't know just how far that went. How much - how
many more people they took in. But I did that, I remember.
and I'm so sorry that the Mutual didn't go along with me
and then even though as I look back at it now, I shouldn't
have stopped at the mutual. I should have gone to one of
the white insurance companies. They would have found a way
to make some money out of it. I believe.

35. PO: This is quite a new innovation on your part - this school
insurance because it didn't exist.
JT: It didn't exist.
PO: What other types of activities did you try to encourage on
the schools?
JT: Well, we had our programs pretty well outlined. Uh, it was
given to us ya know. I'm trying to think now. Now when I
did that, I was with this North Carolina School and
Coordinating Service. I did some other things there I just
can't think about them now.
PO: [unclear]
JT: Rockefeller Foundation. See, we went all over - we had
certain counties - I can't say we went all over the state -
there were certain counties selected where it was heavily
populated by blacks and uh we taught the teachers - the
teachers had come every day - they didn't like that. But
uh we would go into counties there - each one of us on the
staff had certain lectures to make. And then we taught the
teachers how to screen the children. And nutrition was
something. We had two nutritionists. The head man was a
nutritionist and then we had this woman and she came from

36. Hickory, I believe. But she was just in home economics but
she was interested in nutrition so she kept studying and so
forth. One time in Durham when we had our summer workshop
there, we sat up and both at Chapel Hill, UNC and at North
Carolina Central, an experiment. We took so many children
- we examined them. And then we saw what conditions they
were in. so then we put them into two different groups and
we fed one group certain things and didn't feed the other
as nutritional a diet as the other. And it proved that
nutrition was a key to much of the illness in the
development of the children.
PO: And the development in schools. They couldn't really learn
if they ...
JT: Weren't well nourished
PO: So that was one of the things you were trying?
JT: Trying to prove.
PO: What came out of that? What was the outcome?
JT: Well, we , I think we got better lunch rooms or got lunch
rooms and then we we tried to get foods within the child's
community that were very nutritional made up of a lot of
different recipes so they could use them. We even made
what kind of ice cream was that we made - um um um - but it
was good. Very nourishing. uh uh uh Can't think now what
it was. But it's something that the children had within
their own environment - and they were not - the parents did

37. not know really how to use it because they had a lot of
things there but the child would tell ya I don't like that.
I don't like that - and it was the very thing that he
needs. ya see - children were very poorly nourished - very
poorly nourished. Some of them had the food but did not
eat it - so that was one of my big things, working with
improvement of the nutrition of the child. And getting the
child's corrections - Then we had the State dentists in
North Carolina. They had a whole slew of dentists - white
and black - that went around and corrected the children's
teeth.
PO: That was going on before you started this work?
JT: It - I think it was going on before we started. I don't
know who financed that. But we would pull them in to help
us.
PO: Who financed the better lunch rooms?
JT: Now I really don't know. I remember uh - you remember
when
you had free commodities? uh - seems to me I was in this
program and I had walked in to some of these schools - 1
and 2-room schools - and the teacher had free commodities
and she got a pot on the stove - she was making them some
soup or something - I ... given to her - and but I guess it
really got started more in the towns uh and just how they
were financed, I don't know. I don't remember now.
PO: Cause when I stayed at N.C. State ...

38. JT: Well, I don't know. I just really - I'm lost where that is
concerned. But that was very important because the
children began to get at least one meal a day - a decent
meal a day.
PO: How about other issues involving schools. How about
teachers' salaries?
JT: Very poor. Very poor. When I went to Charleston, I got
$55 a month and room and board and the American Missionary
Association paid my railroad fair there and back but they
paid me for 10 months - and the teachers here in North
Carolina were getting less than that. They thought I had
gotten a fabulous salary. But then when I came to North
Carolina, where did I go first? I believe I went to
Lincoln Academy but I'm still with the AMA. but my sister
was working and my mother was working in the State system
and they were getting something like $50 a month and no
room and board. There was one period here in North
Carolina where the people were paid - what did they call it
- anyway they gave them a piece of paper - what was that
term? Similar to that - and uh, sometimes your grocery
stores or your other stores would let you buy things with
it, ya know. They didn't call it ? - It was something
else.
PO: [unclear]
JT: It was equal to that.

39. PO: Did you, now all this time, were you involved with ...
JT: Most of us joined the NAACP - I can't say involved with it.
I never ever worked too much with the NAACP. Haven't
worked with it - I have always been a member. I don't know
whether I haven't been where there was a good chapter or
what - but I've usually been involved in some kind of
community work.
PO: Do you remember the Scottsboro case?
JT: Yes. Um where was I when that happened? um um um -
These
boys were in this uh box car. Wasn't that it? And there
was a white girl in the car. And I remember that - I don't
remember the details now but then the boys were arrested um
um um - and I - they were sentenced I believe. Do you -
have you read about it lately?
PO: I just read about it ......
JT: Yes.
PO: They uh,- the woman actually came out and said that she
had
.....

40. JT: Yes. Yes. and that's in Alabama - some place in Alabama.
But I remember going to Alabama to teach and that was
always on my mind - but I don't ever remember going to this
little town of Scottsboro. But these boys were just trying
to get out of town and get somewhere to make some money and
get a job. And I don't know what she was doing on there.
But she did accuse them wrongly.
PO: Now there's a lot of involvement.....
JT: Now you've got to give the NAACP a lot of credit. Give
them a lot of credit. Uh, - Walter White - isn't he one of
the founders of the NAACP?
PO: He was president of .....
JT: It seems to me Walter White and Dubois knew each other at
Atlanta University. Now Walter White - this is what I
remember reading - (tape ended here)
------------------------------------
Beginning of Tape 2 -
JT: And Walter White's sister was secretary to the School of
Social Work at Atlanta University. I think when I first
started going down there teaching I met her then. I guess
he was dead by that time though.
PO: Did you have chance to meet any other ....

41. JT: Any what?
PO: Any other prominent people in the NAACP?
JT: Uh, let's see if you can remember who was there. I have
been privileged there because so much of my life has been
associated with the University. See - as a child growing
up - now Paul Lawrence Dunbar - ever heard of him? Now I
heard him as a child because at Johnson C. Smith University
which was built when I was a child - he came every year and
recited poetry. See - cause he gave it to the -.... every
year. Um, all those people would come to the various
colleges where I was and even at Avery Institute, they
would bring the celebrities. I can't think of anybody
else. It looks as though we have let this thing go so much
now until we almost don't remember. but now they don't say
as much about Paul Lawrence Dunbar as they should. When my
father and mother - when they cleaned out the house, my
father had a book of Paul Lawrence Dunbar's poem, and that
book was about as thick as this. And I took the things - I
was teaching at North Carolina Central when I cleaned that
house out - and I took some of the things I couldn't get
rid of or did not want to get rid of - I took them with me
then and put them in the basement but I didn't lock them
up. So I haven't seen the book since. It was . a fact of
the house (can't make it out ) - I lost that.
PO: So, in the 50's, when did you actually start teaching ...?
JT: Uh, I did - say I did two stits there. Um um um - I guess

42. I went to North Carolina Central about 19 - was that about
1945? yea. I married from North Carolina Central - The
State sent me there to help establish the graduate school
and the - a department of health education in the
undergraduate school. And Dr. Lucy Malgen and I from
Chapel Hill worked together. So, I set up the the
department for undergraduates - that was my big thing. Oh,
and then Dr. Shepherd sent me out to get the first graduate
class. And I I selected those people from people who had
been with us at our workshops. We had a workshop every
summer uh - Chapel Hill had one and North Carolina Central
had one. North Carolina College of Negroes at that time.
So uh, the girls that had shown - the students that had
shown a real interest in helping uh education - I had kept
in touch with them, and I had their records, so then I had
to contact these people and see if they were interested in
a scholarship - we got scholarships for them. And I don't
know if there was still the Rockefeller Foundation or not.
Plus, we brought people from Mississippi - I say some of
the Southern states, and they came for our workshops so
that they could learn what we were doing and go back to
their state and help the people - folk.
PO: And this is all out of North Carolina Central?
JT: It was really - it was uh it was not North Carolina Central
doing it. This is the State Board of Health and the State
Board of Education in this joint venture North Carolina
School Health Coordinating Service. They were the ones
working together and they were getting the money say from
the Foundation. Now what I heard - was it this or the
other theory - the Rosenwald Foundation - was that it? Dr.

43. Hughes started working with the State Board of Health when
VD became such a problem - and the State - no other Board
of Health in the South had ever had a black doctor on it.
but the company the Foundation was giving the money
definitely said they had to attach a black position to
their staff.
http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/behindtheveil
Interview with Leola Davis Williams
June 28, 1994
Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South
Albany (Ga.)
Interviewer: Charles Houston
ID: btvct01008
Interview N umber: 58
SUGGESTED CITATION
Interview with Leola Davis Williams (btvct01008), interviewed

44. by Charles Houston, Albany (Ga.), June 28,
1994, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in
the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John
Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries.
Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim
Crow South
An oral history project to record and preserve the living
memory of African American
life during the age of legal segregation in the American South,
from the 1890s to the
1950s.
ORIGINAL PROJECT
Center for Documentary Studies at Duke
University (1993-1995)
COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE
John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African
American History and Culture
at the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library
The materials in this collection are made available for use in
research, teaching and private study. Texts and recordings from
this collection may not be used for any commercial purpose
without prior permission. When use is made of these texts and
recordings, it is the responsibility of the user to obtain
additional permissions as necessary and to observe the stated

45. access
policy, the laws of copyright and the educational fair use
guidelines.
Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University
Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life
in the Jim Crow South
Interview
with
LEOLA DAVIS WILLIAMS
(DOB 12/10/19)
Albany, Georgia
June 28, 1994
Charles H. Houston, Jr.
Interviewer
Houston: Could we start by having you state your name and
your
date of birth, and where you were born, please?
Williams: My name is Leola Davis Williams and I was born in

46. Baker County.
Houston: And when were you born?
Williams: When?
Houston: The twelfth, tenth, 1919.
Williams: Okay. So December 10, 1919.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: I forgot to mention that I'll be taking notes as you
Williams -
2
talk. I mean, in addition to the recording, I'll be taking
notes. And I'll be taking notes to help keep me focused on what
you're talking about. Because it helps me learn, as well.
Okay? So I hope that's not distracting. Could you talk a
little bit about your parents? You were born in Baker County.

47. Were your parents from Baker County?
Williams: M-hm. My mother. We all was born in Baker
County.
We never have left Baker County.
Houston: Your father too?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. So as you grew up, you had lots of relatives
around, both on your mother and your father's side.
Williams: Yeah. There was fourteen of us.
Houston: Fourteen children? Your parents had fourteen
children?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And which number were you?

48. Williams -
3
Williams: I was ... wait. I believe I was the fifth one.
Houston: You were the fifth one?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: So as you were growing up, you got to do a lot of
things for the younger kids in the household.
Williams: Yeah.
Houston: So what did your parents do? I mean, where in Baker
County were they living when you were born? Were you living
in
a town or in the countryside?
Williams: No. I been in the country all the while.
Houston: Okay. And what did your dad do in the countryside?

49. Williams: Farm.
Houston: Okay. And did he own his own farm?
Williams: No. Half-sharecropped.
Williams -
4
Houston: Okay. And you said he half-sharecropped. So that
means he farmed for half of the crop?
Williams: He got half and the company, Ichaway -- he was
farming
for Ichaway, and they got half.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: Whatever.
Houston: Okay. So were you living on Ichaway?

50. Williams: Yeah.
Houston: You were living on Ichaway Plantation at the time?
Williams: M-hm. That's all I remember we lived until later
years.
Houston: Okay. So you were born there and you lived there
until much later. I mean, you were much older when you moved
away.
Williams: M-hm.
Williams -
5
Houston: Were there many other people living nearby?
Williams: Not really. Where we lived, we called it the Old
George House, the Old Big George House. And peoples was
living

51. maybe miles away but nobody just didn't live right around.
Houston: Okay. But your family actually lived in something
called the Old Big George House?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. Was that a special house in some way?
Williams: That was just, I guess, the name of what they called
it. It wasn't no just special, it wasn't no really just real
good house, you know. Just old big house. Room on each side
and a big hall down there.
Houston: So it had one room on each side?
Williams: Oh, more than one room.
Houston: Okay. But rooms on each side and a middle hallway.

52. Williams -
6
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Do you remember how many rooms?
Williams: It was about four rooms.
Houston: So two on each side, two rooms on each side and a
middle hallway.
Williams: ... kitchen.
Houston: So would you say there were like three bedrooms and
a
kitchen and then a middle hallway?
Williams: Yeah, something like that.
Houston: Okay. And what kinds of crops did your dad raise?
Williams: Oh, cotton, corn, peanuts, velvet beans, cane, sweet

53. potatoes, hogs, cows.
Houston: Okay. Were all of these things cash crops or were
some of these things things that you raised for yourself, that
your dad raised for the family?
Williams -
7
Williams: Something like, well the corn and cotton and peanuts,
they would be ... all that was half. But the hogs and the cow,
well, he just kept two or three milk cows, you know. Sweet
potatoes and cane, that was his.
Houston: And the cane?
Williams: M-hm. So it made us have, you know, our own meat,
syrup and sweet potatoes, the biggest of what we ate.
Houston: Okay. And anything else that you needed, you bought

54. from the store?
Williams: M-hm. Well, something like meal or corn, well, see
we
would share corn and shuck it, shuck and shed it and take it to
the mill. It was a mill ground. And they didn't mostly have
nothing to buy but something like flour, grits and coffee and
rice, stuff like that.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: Because he raised his meat.
Houston: And where did you buy the things, the things like
flour, grits and coffee and so on?
Williams -
8
Williams: Newton. Up in Newton.

55. Houston: So now did you buy the things at a plantation store or
in the town store?
Williams: In the town store.
Houston: Okay. And so you're actually now thinking back to
like the 1920s. This is back in say the 1920s, when you were a
little girl, say around ten years old?
Williams: Mmm, I probably was a little older than that.
Houston: Or this is all of your girlhood.
Williams: See, I was born 1919.
Houston: How old were you when you left your parents? When
your parents left Ichaway?
Williams: Well, I was done married. I done married.
Houston: So you actually grew up at Ichaway. You never left.

56. Williams -
9
Williams: No.
Houston: Okay. Until you got married.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. And at what age was that? Or what year was
that?
Williams: I married, I think, when I was about 18.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: I still halfway lived on Ichaway because the man I
married, he was on Ichaway too.
Houston: Okay. So you got married about 1937, age 18. You
were born in 1919.

57. Williams: '37. Because my oldest child was born in '38.
Houston: Okay. Now you said there were not too many
neighbors
around. How close were your nearest neighbors, would you
say?
I mean, could you see their farms from where you lived?
Williams -
10
Williams: No, because we had everything all around and we had
to
walk to school. But you couldn't see no neighbors until you go
visit them, you know.
Houston: Okay. How many acres would you say your dad
farmed?
Williams: Oh, Lord. I don't know but he had big, big farms. I

58. can remember when he was running about a seven horse farm,
you
know a seven horse farm.
Houston: Okay. And did he do that all by himself?
Williams: Uh-uh [no]. The children, well, when they growed
up,
the boys, and my oldest sister, they plowed.
Houston: And how many boys were there?
Williams: It was six boys.
Houston: Okay. And one girl. So six boys and one girl plowed.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And your dad plowed. Did your mom?
Williams -

59. 11
Williams: I never ... Well, he plowed a little but he'd get them
started and he would leave.
Houston: And when he left, where would he go?
Williams: [laughing] That's what we didn't know. He'd just go
and you know, I don't reckon it would be far because he was
walking.
Houston: Okay. Did he ever ... I mean he would just go and you
wouldn't know where he was but he'd come back when it was
time
to stop working.
Williams: He'd come back for dinner, check the plows and
things.
Houston: Did your dad hunt at all?
Williams: He hunted at night sometimes.
Houston: Okay. And what kind of hunting did he do? Do you

60. know?
Williams: Like possum hunting, and coon.
Houston: So he would have hunted with a shotgun?
Williams -
12
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And with dogs?
Williams: M-hm. Well, no, he didn't have no dogs.
Houston: Okay. And if he had a seven horse farm, that means
you had ... I mean each of your brothers and your older sister
who plowed would have had a mule or a horse to pull the plow.
Williams: M-hm.

61. Houston: And were those kept on your farm as well? I mean
you
had a barn on your farm?
Williams: M-hm. A big old barn that he would keep them in.
Houston: Okay. And that's where you kept all the equipment.
Williams: M-hm. And I can remember Ichaway had some big
old --
we called them iron gray mules, you know, and my daddy kept
them
butterball fat. He them. I said he give them more than
he did us.
Williams -
13
Houston: He took really good care of those mules, huh?
Williams: M-hm.

62. Houston: How did he do that? How did he keep them so
butterball fat?
Williams: Well, like feed them with hay, like, you know, when
the peanuts -- when you pick the peanuts, you pick the peanuts
and bale the hay. Hay, peanuts and corn.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: Then when it come time to gather that stuff, see we
all had to work. Like I said them velvet beans, he'd plant them
velvet beans and corn. Mostly they would choke that corn down
and oooh, I hated to pick velvet beans. Them things would
sting
you, just eat you. But I seen him haul loads and loads and
loads.
Houston: So you say the velvet beans, the beans and the corn
were planted together in the same field
Williams: M-hm.

63. Williams -
14
Houston: And that the bean stalks would wrap around the corn
stalks and would choke the corn down
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: so the corn wouldn't get very big?
Williams: It would get big. It'll get big. We pull that corn,
pull the corn, and then most of November and December, that's
when we had to pick the velvet beans.
Houston: So did you pick the corn at a different time? The
corn and the beans were in the same field, right?
Williams: M-hm.

64. Houston: And you said you picked the beans in November and
December?
Williams: M-hm. And January, something like that, 'til we got
through.
Houston: Okay. So you'd actually pick them when it was pretty
cold.
Williams -
15
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And when did you pick the corn?
Williams: We'd pull the corn something like September,
October,
something like that.
Houston: Okay. So you actually pulled the corn

65. Williams: first.
Houston: a long time before you pulled the beans.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. And all the kids would work at harvest time.
Williams: Yes.
Houston: Now did your dad ever get in extra help or was it just
the family?
Williams: No. We had to do it.
Houston: Okay. What about other household duties? I mean,
Williams -
16
there were six boys and one girl working in the field. What

66. other work was there to be done around the farm? I mean, you
didn't work in the field. Well, except during harvest time. I
mean you worked in the field at harvest time. But you didn't
plow.
Williams: We worked all through while they were plowing.
See,
we would be on the end like picking out the peanuts, picking the
sticks out of the peanuts, and handing the
Houston: Okay.
Williams: and handing the corn, filling up the corn dropper with
corn. And filling up the dropper with . We all were
working now, but I just never did try to learn how to plow.
Houston: Okay. So in other words, it wasn't just at harvest
time, you worked in the field -- the other children worked in
the field all the time.
Williams: Most all the time.

67. Houston: Whether it was weeds
Williams: M-hm. Pulling cotton. We'd go to school until
about,
Williams -
17
from two to three days out of the week. And we had to work.
Houston: What was the school season? When did school begin?
Williams: Well, like January until maybe May and then like
maybe September until December. We went about, I would say,
it
would be about maybe ... wait now. I know we started in
January
and went before Christmas.
Houston: So you went before Christmas?
Williams: M-hm.

68. Houston: But you also were working in the field a lot before
Christmas. So when you say you went to school two or three
days
a week, was that before Christmas that you went to school in the
fall?
Williams: Well, both times. You know, school ... When school
was going on, farming and everything was kind of going on too
but he would let us go to school from two to three days out of
the week and the other days we had to work.
Houston: Okay. But what about in the middle of the winter, say
January to May? Were you still working on the farm during
those
Williams -
18
times?
Williams: Pulling up corn stalks. Pulling up cotton stalks.

69. And piling them and burning them. Cleaning up and getting
ready
for farming.
Houston: Okay. So you really worked in the field year round
and year round you only were allowed ... Your dad allowed you
to
go to school only two to three days a week.
Williams: That's right.
Houston: Okay. Now, what about the other kids? I mean, did
they work as hard or was it kind of up to each family?
Williams: If they was big enough to work, they worked.
Houston: Okay. So all the kids went to school only about two
or three days a week.
Williams: M-hm. Now the younger ones, they got a chance to
go a
little bit more than we did.

70. Houston: Okay. How much younger? At what ages are you
thinking about no? When you say the younger ones went to
Williams -
19
school more, how much more did they go to school and up until
... from what age to what age?
Williams: Well, I would say the two youngest ones, they did
graduate. We didn't get near that far.
Houston: Oh. Okay. And how far did the school go?
Williams: How far did the school go?
Houston: Yeah, how many grades?
Williams: Well, along in that time, tenth, you would, you know,
graduate.

71. Houston: Okay. And the two youngest actually finished the
tenth grade.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: This was just a country school. We called it the
Green Grove School.
Williams -
20
Houston: And was that on the plantation?
Williams: No, not really.
Houston: Was it in the town?
Williams: Uh-uh [no]. Just out in the country.

72. Houston: Okay. And do you know who paid for it? It wasn't
built by the plantation. Was it built by the county?
Williams: No. This was built by the county I guess. All I can
remember, right up here, and just at the church right up there,
you all turn. The school's there. Right over there in that
corner. But we had to walk from the Old George place to the
school. And that was about two miles or more.
Houston: Okay. Can you describe the school for me? I mean,
physically, what did it look like? What do you remember about
how it looked? Both outside and inside.
Williams: You know, it was really some old house like and they
taught in it. It had about one building. One big room. But
then the grades, like first grade was over here on this side,
and the second and third, something like that. It was about
Williams -

73. 21
three teachers.
Houston: Okay. But they were altogether in this one school,
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: in this one room, there were like ten different
grades?
Williams: Well, no. My youngest sister now, they wound up
going
to school in Newton. But along when we were going, that's
what
it was. An old house.
Houston: Okay, so when your youngest sisters went to school
through the tenth grade, they actually went to a different ...
They went to a different school.
Williams: M-hm. They had got a better school along in that
time.

74. Houston: So do you remember how many grades there were at
the
Green Grove School? How far you could go in the Green Grove
School? Could you go through, was it through grade seven?
Williams: You could go through eighth.
Williams -
22
Houston: Okay. So in this one room then, with groups of
students in different places in the room, there were probably
eight grades.
Williams: Grouped off.
Houston: Grouped off. Okay.
Williams: Everybody teaching and know they had to kind of ...
Like this group would be looking over there, but them teachers

75. would make you look direct, you know. Everything's going on.
Houston: Right.
Williams: But the group over here and a group over there and a
group, it just ... you know, but you had to look at your teacher
and listen as to what she was saying. It was rough, though.
But that's the way we had to do it.
Houston: So how many students would you say were there?
Williams: It should have maybe about forty or fifty or sixty.
Something like that.
Williams -
23
Houston: Okay. And were the students all from Ichaway or
were
they from ...?

76. Williams: Oh, no, different.
Houston: How far away would you say they came from? Not
the
whole county but from other plantations as well?
Williams: No other plantations, just from where ever, you know,
they was living around there in the country.
Houston: Okay. So, from Ichaway and the countryside and
elsewhere in the countryside.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Now when you say it was "rough" what do you mean?
Williams: Well, you know, well, it was just walking -- rainy
days, if we went, we had to walk, and it'd be cold. And we had
an old wooden heater. That's how we heated, put the heat in
there. And we had to go out and get wood and stuff, which my
daddy would haul some wood sometimes. And it would rain in
the

77. school house.
Williams -
24
Houston: Oh, so the roof leaked.
Williams: M-hm. And we had, you know, the outdoor toilets.
The
girls had one and the boys had one.
Houston: And what do you remember about your teachers? Do
you
remember anything about your teachers? I mean, like where
they
were from, who they were?
Williams: Well, they was from Newton.
Houston: From the town. So they weren't farming people.

78. Williams: One of my teachers living now, Leola Phipps.
Houston: Is that right? What's her name? Leola?
Williams: Leola Dudley Phipps.
Man: [inaudible]
Williams: They all was some kind of relatives like. She's about
the only one living. The others been dead.
Houston: But all three of them lived in the town, you said in
Williams -
25
Newton.
Williams: M-hm. Well, now one lived in Elmodel, back here in
Elmodel. Miss Kunny.
Houston: How do you spell Elmodel?

79. Williams: E-l-m-o-d-e-l. Wait now. Elmodel. E-l-m-o-d-e-l,
Elmodel, Georgia.
Houston: And you said, Miss Connie
Williams: She was from Elmodel.
Houston: Okay. And was Elmodel a farming community?
Williams: M-hm. It was a little old, well, we ... It was a
store there, a grocery store, and that was our little town.
What we thought, you know.
Houston: So it was the closest town to where you lived?
Williams: Closer than Newton.
Houston: Okay. And were the teachers married? They weren't
Williams -
26

80. married to farmers then? Who were the husbands of the
teachers?
Williams: Well, Leola Phipps, Paul Phipps was her husband.
Houston: Okay. And what did he do?
Williams: He was a carpenter, worked to build houses and
things.
But Miss Kunny, she weren't married. She didn't have any
husband. Miss Singletary, she weren't married.
Houston: So Carl Phipps was a carpenter?
Williams: M-hm. Paul.
Houston: Paul. Okay. And Miss Singletary
Williams: She wasn't married.
Houston: And what was the other woman's name, Miss Connie?
Williams: Kunny. Either Singletary or Miss Kunny, they
weren't

81. married.
Houston: Okay. Now, since they weren't married, do you know
whether they had come from farming families? Or had they also
Williams -
27
grown up in the town? Do you know what their parents had
done
by any chance? Do you know about their families at all?
Williams: Let's see, Miss Kunny -- I don't know whether they
was
farming or not.
Houston: Okay. Well, they were all people who had grown up
in
the community. They were all local people.
Williams: M-hm.

82. Houston: Tell me about how things were in the family. I mean,
what kind of responsibility did older kids have for younger
kids? I mean, you were one of the older children. There were
fourteen children and you were the fifth one.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: So as an older child, did you have any responsibility
for the younger ones or were your parents kind of the ones who
sort of took care of all the kids, and took care of everything
and did all the disciplining? Did the older kids kind of act
like parents toward the younger kids?
Williams: When our mother and dad was gone, the older ones,
you
Williams -
28
know, had to see after.

83. Houston: Okay.
Williams: They'd try to whoop us and all.
Houston: Now where would your parents go? You said when
they
were gone. Would they sometimes go away, like to visit
relatives or something?
Williams: He would. He'd be gone. My mother would be ...
when
she'd leave out the field, she would go and be cooking dinner
and all.
Houston: Okay. So in other words, out in the field when your
dad would leave and your mother would leave the field to go
cook
dinner, the older kids would be in charge?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. Could you maybe just tell me what a typical
day

84. was like? I mean, from the time you got up in the morning say.
I mean, when would the family get up? When would you go ....
and just tell me what a typical kind of day would be.
Williams -
29
Williams: Oh, the dawn of day.
Houston: Yeah. So tell me about a typical day because I'm a
city person. I don't know what life was like on the farm.
Stuff that you would think I should know, I probably don't
know.
Williams: About sunrise or something like that, we'd be up.
Houston: Okay. So you'd get up and eat breakfast right away?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Your mother would have breakfast ready?

85. Williams: M-hm. She'd have breakfast ready and we'd go on to
the field. Now them boys, I've seen them get out there in
frost. There'd be a white frost out there in the field.
Houston: So the boys would go out first?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And I'm just curious, what would you have for
breakfast?
Williams -
30
Williams: Sometimes grits and sometimes syrup and biscuits
and
ham meat, something like that.
Houston: Okay.

86. Williams: I just like common food. We had plenty of that
because my daddy raised hogs and he killed them and we had a
smoke house of meat.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: And these big barrels of syrup.
Houston: Where'd he get the syrup from?
Williams: Raised the cane.
Houston: Oh, okay. It was cane syrup. Of course, of course.
Williams: He had a mill, you grind the cane. And he made his
own syrup. And like sweet potatoes. I've known him to have
about six or seven banks of sweet potatoes. Now something like
that, we had plenty of that to eat.
Houston: Okay. So you'd head out into the fields at the first

87. Williams -
31
light, at dawn, sometimes with a white frost on the ground.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And then so then what?
Williams: Knock off at twelve.
Houston: But what would you do in the morning? I mean, you
know, they'd go out in the fields, so they'd get the mules. I
mean, just a typical day. Like in the morning, what type of
work would you do in the morning?
Williams: Well, when they catch the mules and go to the field,
well, when they start ... well, we would carry breakfast. When
she got through with breakfast, we'd carry the breakfast to
those who are out there in the field.
Houston: Okay.

88. Williams: And they would stop and eat. We'd carry water. And
then we had to start doing our thing, like picking out peanuts
and pouring and drop in things. And we'd be out there
doing different things until time to knock off at twelve for
dinner.
Williams -
32
Houston: Okay. And who took care of the animals? Did the
plowers do that? The boys and your oldest sister?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And your dad? They all cared for the animals?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. And you had a family garden too?

89. Williams: M-hm.
Houston: In which you grew vegetables and stuff like that. And
who took care of that?
Williams: Well, just all of us.
Houston: Okay. And you said whenever your parents were
away,
the older kids would try to beat you if somebody misbehaved,
right?
Williams: Yes.
Williams -
33
Houston: What would they beat you for?
Williams: Just try to make you, you know, do things, and maybe

90. do what they should be doing. They'll try to make you do it,
you know.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: And I'd be knowing they supposed to do and I guess I
was a little stubborn. [laughs]
Houston: Right. So you'd get in fights with them, huh?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Now what time would your mom knock off to go in
the
house to cook supper?
Williams: For dinner?
Houston: U-huh [yes].
Williams: She'd knock off about eleven.
Houston: In the morning?

91. Williams -
34
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. Tell me please about neighborhood kids. I
mean
kids who lived nearby and playmates. I mean, did you play with
kids on nearby farms? Did you have time for recreation? Did
you play games?
Williams: Never until on Sundays, Sunday evenings. Maybe
Saturday but Saturday we always had to do our homework, like
clean yards and mop and iron. And Sunday, when we went to
Sunday school, then that's when we would play and visit.
Houston: So during the week, like Monday through Friday, it
was
farm work only. And then the house work was done on
Saturday.

92. And who did the house work? I mean, I assume there were all
kinds of things to be done around the house. [phone rings.] Do
you want me to stop that? I'll stop this for a minute.
Williams: I hope I'm talking plain enough for you.
Houston: Oh, no. Absolutely. It's crystal clear. And it's
very, very interesting. We were talking about Sunday and the
fact that that was the only day you could play. That Saturday
you had home work to do and you also had house work like
mopping
Williams -
35
and ironing.
Williams: M-hm. Cleaning the yard.
Houston: Cleaning the yard. And I was wondering how those
household chores were divided. I mean who did what when you

93. were doing house work?
Williams: Well, now mostly my job was ironing. I had to iron
for everybody.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: And most I would start on Friday evening, around
about
three.
Houston: Okay. So you would iron from Friday evening
Williams: and Saturday morning until I finished.
Houston: Okay. And was that it for you then? That was your
job.
Williams: Yes, that was mostly mine.
Williams -

94. 36
Houston: Then you were free after that to do homework.
Williams: Right. And supper. I would have to cook supper.
But
that ironing -- my daddy loved his starch, ironed overalls. And
like the jumper go with it. And I would starch them and iron
all that for him and the boys.
Houston: You mean you starched and ironed theirs too?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: When you say "jumper", you mean the overalls that
button over the shoulder.
Williams: M-hm. I mean, the jumper went with the overalls. It
was a coat like but it all was there.
Houston: Okay. But it went over the overalls. And so what
would the other kids do in terms of house work? Was there a

95. difference between the kind of work that the boys did and the
girls did?
Williams: Well the boys, they would always, you know, like go
in
the woods and get wood and get it there.
Williams -
37
Houston: Okay. For the stove?
Williams: Stove and our fire place.
Houston: Okay. Okay.
Williams: They would have to haul wood, you know, out of the
woods in the wagon. Take the mules and haul the wood.
Houston: Right. And so all the work inside the house was done
by women? Did the boys do any chores inside the house?

96. Williams: Not too much. When they got their work done, then
they could shoot marbles and play and do whatever they wanted
to
do.
Houston: Okay. Tell me about the work that the women did in
the house, I mean aside from the ironing. So you said they
scrubbed and they mopped. Somebody else do sewing, for
example?
Williams: Well, my mother, she, you know, she would patch
like.
Like the boys wear out their knees in overalls.
Houston: Okay.
Williams -
38
Williams: She would patch.

97. Houston: Who did the wash?
Williams: Us, the girls.
Houston: Okay. And was there one day when you did that, did
the washing? Was there a particular day in the week when you
did the washing?
Williams: On Friday.
Houston: Okay. And you did that outside, I guess.
Williams: M-hm. On rub boards in tin tubs.
Houston: Okay. Did you build a fire under the water to get it
hot?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. Then you'd scrub on wash boards. Tell me
about
Sunday, if you would please. What was Sunday like? I mean

98. the
typical Sunday from the time you got up.
Williams -
39
Williams: We had to get up, go in the Sunday school, going to
church. Sunday school. And then when we got back from
Sunday
school, that would be our little pleasure to play and visit.
Houston: So you went to Sunday school and church?
Williams: Well, you know, sometimes just Sunday school. And
then we didn't have church until once a month. We'd go to
Sunday school, then come back home and visit and play.
Houston: Okay. But you went to Sunday school every Sunday.
Williams: Every Sunday.

99. Houston: And church once a month. Where did you go to
church
or Sunday school? Did you go to Sunday school and church in
the
same place?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: And where was that?
Williams: Back then, this same church you can barely see it, but
back in then it was way back there in the woods.
Williams -
40
Houston: Okay. And what's it called?
Williams: Hm?
Houston: What's the name of it?

100. Williams: Green Grove.
Houston: Green Grove, right. Okay. Same as the school.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. So was Green Grove School in the same
building
as the church? Was it the same building? A different building.
Williams: Different.
Houston: Okay. So it was Green Grove Baptist Church?
Williams: Methodist.
Houston: Okay.
Williams: Because see the church sits way back in the woods
but
the school was up here at the corner where this church is now.

101. Williams -
41
But this church, where it is now, it weren't there then.
Houston: Okay. Who taught Sunday school?
Williams: A man by the name of Mr. Calvin Wright.
Houston: And was he a farmer?
Williams: I think he worked at wagers.
Houston: He worked at wagers?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: What was wagers?
Williams: That was something like working by the day, getting
paid by the day.
Houston: Oh, okay. But he worked in the countryside?

102. Williams: M-hm.
Houston: He worked on Ichaway?
Williams -
42
Williams: No, not on Ichaway. On some of the Halls place.
Man: Those were Black, right. Halls was Black.
Williams: No, some of the Halls was White. But them that he
worked for, they was White.
Houston: So he worked for a White family named Hall?
Williams: M-hm. What was their name? John Bryant Hall.
Houston: John Bryant?
Williams: M-hm.

103. Houston: Okay. And again, I guess, the children who attended
Sunday school and the people who attended church were like the
people who went to the regular school. That is they were from
Ichaway as well as folks who lived out in the county.
Williams: All from around.
Houston: So they were basically the same children you went to
school with, is that right?
Williams -
43
Williams: Right.
Houston: So after church, would you stay around the church and
play with them there around the church?
Williams: No we would

104. Houston: go home?
Williams: We would go home with some of the children or
either
they would go home with us. We didn't stay and play at the
church.
Houston: Okay. And when you'd go home with them or when
they'd
come home with you, what would you do? What kinds of things
would you play?
Williams: Like play ball and play running. Some kind of ring
play.
Houston: Okay. What about toys? Did you guys have toys
when
you were little?
Williams: Not too many.

105. Williams -
44
Houston: Say homemade toys, any kind of toys? Would you
just
kind of make things up?
Williams: We didn't have too many toys. We had like for
Christmas, you know, they would buy a few toys.
Houston: So what kinds of things would you get for Christmas?
Williams: Something like a doll. And the boys would get
something like a train or a truck or something like that.
Houston: But everybody would get something different?
Williams: M-hm. Most of the girls got dolls.
Houston: Okay. And boys would get things like trucks.
Williams: Trucks and wagons and like a harp, you know, just

106. something like that.
Houston: You know, speaking of a harp or music, did anybody
in
the family make music?
Williams: You know, not no real good music, but they'd blow
the
harp, you know. Just blow in and be acting with it.
Williams -
45
Houston: But nobody really played like a harmonica or a mouth
harp or anything like that?
Williams: No.
Houston: Okay. And you had lots of cousins and people living
nearby because your family was from Baker County. Did you
see

107. them very often? Your relatives?
Williams: Just like I said, kind of on weekends. That's the
onliest time we had time to visit or play.
Houston: Okay. Did any of your relatives go to Green Grove
Church?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: So what relatives went to Green Grove Church?
Williams: Well, we had two different sets of Washingtons. But
we had all was kin. And they went. My cousins, they went to
school, Sunday school and to Green Grove Church.
Houston: Okay. So your maiden name is Davis. [End of Tape
1,
Williams -
46

108. Side A]
[Begin Tape 1, Side B]
Houston: So, you would play on Sunday afternoons when there
wasn't church and I guess your playmates or relatives would
leave before dark?
Williams: M-hm. And sometimes we would have, you know,
church
at night. We'd play 'til time to go back to church.
Houston: Okay. What was the occasion for church at night?
How
often did that happen?
Williams: Once a month when the church would be in the
daytime
beside. I'm talking about beside Sunday School. Then we'd go
to church that Sunday then go back that Sunday evening.
Houston: Oh, okay. So you had church once a month but you
always had it in the daytime and in the evening.

109. Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay. And what would you do? Would there be a
difference between what you did in the daytime and what you
did
in the evening?
Williams -
47
Williams: No difference. Same kind of service.
Houston: As you got older, I mean as kids get older, they
start, you know, girls start getting interested in boys and boys
start getting interested in girls. But it sounds like you were
so busy working that the only time that boys and girls would
have an opportunity -- I mean this is like after they're, I
don't know, 12, 13, 14 years old in there somewhere. You
know,
little boys start getting interested in little girls and so on.

110. But it sounds like the only time they would have to meet would
be at school. They would see each other at school. But that's
only two or three days a week.
Williams: At school. Off like on Sunday.
Houston: Sunday evening? You mean Sunday afternoon or
Sunday
evening?
Williams: Sunday, well, it wouldn't be night, you know.
Sunday
evening. You know, like if the girls took the boys
would go out. That's when it would be. But the boys would be
going like on Saturday night. You know.
Houston: Where would they go?
Williams -
48

111. Williams: They had a certain time to be back.
Houston: Well, where would the boys go on Saturday night?
Williams: Going to see their little girls.
Houston: Well, but how did that work? I mean, they could go to
somebody's house and visit little girls on Saturday night? So
when you were a little girl, did boys come and visit you on
Saturday night?
Williams: Sometimes. But most on Sunday evening.
Houston: Okay. So would boys then go ... would they do other
things on Saturday night? Could boys just kind of go out and
do
what they wanted to do on Saturday nights?
Williams: Yeah. But, you know, they couldn't stay out like they
stay out now. They had to be back at least no later than eleven
o'clock. They had to be home.

112. Houston: Okay.
Williams: And we had to be home before sundown.
Williams -
49
Houston: Okay. When boys did come over to visit, whether it
was Saturday night or Sunday, what did you do? I mean, you
know, if a boy came over to see you on a Saturday night or a
Sunday, what would he do when he came to your house? I
mean,
could you go for a walk? Would you sit on the porch?
Williams: No. We'd sit and talk awhile inside.
Houston: Inside rather than out.
Williams: Or we could sit on the porch, you know, if it was ...
Houston: Okay. Would they come over for dinner on Sunday?

113. Would they ever stay for dinner?
Williams: [no]
Houston: Okay.
Williams: They didn't come that early. Kind of like three and
four o'clock, something like that.
Houston: So what time did you eat dinner?
Williams -
50
Williams: We'd eat dinner when we'd get back from church.
And
that would be around about one or two o'clock.
Houston: And then late at night, say around six, you'd eat
again? No? Okay.

114. Williams: You know, if there were leftovers, you could eat that.
Houston: Okay. Now, you said your dad farmed for half shares.
And that you shopped in town. So did your dad buy things in
town at the store on credit? I'm wondering now about settling
up and about whether there were ever problems settling up, you
know, at harvest time.
Williams: Well, not as I know of because, you know, he never
did
really let us know nothing about his business or nothing, you
know. When he'd go to get his settlement, all he would do come
back and say what he got or what he didn't get and it'd be
borrowing money on the next year of crop.
Houston: Who would he borrow that money from? The
landowner of
Ichaway? Or from the merchant?
Williams: Ichaway, the landowner.

115. Williams -
51
Houston: But he never told you how much profit he made or did
he tell you?
Williams: I don't remember him telling nothing. Might have
told
my momma. He didn't tell us. Because my daddy was kind of
like
a courting man.
Houston: Like a what? Like a courting man?
Williams: [laughs] He kept back, I just imagine, a lot. But
all we knowed to do is work.
Houston: Okay. Okay. Do you know if he borrowed money
from
the store? I mean, did he ever have to buy things on credit
from the store, you know, like clothes and stuff like that?

116. Williams: I don't think he did. Like clothes he would buy from
some of them Howell store down there. Because you know he
never
did ... We didn't never go to town. He'd mostly go and do what
to be done.
Houston: So your dad would go to town when? Like on
Saturdays?
Williams: On Saturdays.
Williams -
52
Houston: But he didn't take the family?
Williams: Uh-uh. [no]
Houston: Not your mother either?
Williams: Sometimes she would go. Most times, if she wanted

117. to
stay home and patch and get the clothes ready for the next
week,
she would do that.
Houston: Okay. Now were all of the people who lived on
Ichaway, I mean, all the people that you saw on Ichaway, other
Black farming families? Or were there, you know, like Whites
living there too?
Williams: It was Black and White.
Houston: Okay. And what were the Whites doing?
Williams: They would work the same way -- sharecropping.
Houston: So there were White sharecroppers there too.
Williams: M-hm.
Williams -

118. 53
Houston: Were there a lot of Whites there? I mean, how many
Williams: I believe it was more Blacks than it was White.
Houston: Okay. And did you see the little White kids? Did you
see them?
Williams: No. We didn't live nowhere near them.
Houston: Okay. So were the White farmers and the Black
farmers
living in different parts of the plantation?
Williams: Yeah, because none of the Whites ... We always
lived
kind of off, kinda like, from everybody.
Houston: Okay. I guess because you had such a big farm. I
mean, you had a big family so you had a seven horse farm.
Williams: Yeah.

119. Houston: And so everybody ...
Williams: That reached out, you know, a long ways.
Williams -
54
Houston: Okay. Well, do you know were there any Black
families
living near White families on Ichaway? I mean, were there
situations where Black families and White families lived next to
each other, that you know of?
Williams: Not as I remember.
Houston: So, and Black kids and White kids didn't play
together?
Williams: Oh no.

120. Houston: What about the landowner? Did you ever see the
landowner around the farm? Did he ever come around to see
how
things were going?
Williams: Well, he had like a overseer, the rider, but the big
man. You know, he lived in Atlanta, and had a overseer that
see
everything down at the ....
Houston: And he was White?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston: Okay.
Williams -
55
Williams: And he'd always ride the farms, you know. And
whatever Daddy said he needed some more fertilizer or
something