The Chief Engineer of the Lloyd Barrage and Canals Construction project discussed the labour employed on the construction works. He estimated that the total number of labour units employed so far in 1930 was around 206,856, and that they hoped to employ around 300,000 units by the end of the year. The majority of labour came through contracting systems from various regions, including many returning workers. Sanitation and drinking water arrangements on work sites relied mainly on local wells, though the engineer acknowledged the need for periodic testing of well water quality.

1. ,
='=:::;;=======1
, ON'
:LABOUR~f;IN ,INDIA'- . ~'
-ORAL EVIDENCE
BOMBAY PRESiDENCY
~·n'. I-Part II
. '~'N<C;l'~.f'--.'l !
V'-ll I '1. . .--,-J,.
~o107 ,..,1'
--..;c.~...if-~·-·
OL.<JUTTA: GOVERNMI:~~ .. " INDIA
"1 CENTRAL PUBLIOATIO!'! ~lu..': L
1980
.,
II

3. ROYAL COMMISSION
ON
LABOUR IN INDIA ...,
ORAL EVIDENCE
BOMBAY PRESIDENCY·
< ,Vol. I-Part II
BOMBAY
I'IUNTRlI AT THE GOVr-:RNMJ.::o."'T CENTRAL PRESS
19"JO

4. X : ~ ·2 .IV2-c;;t.
F~ .l'~,
I 0 107 .

5. .- --"
TAKEIr BBFOBIl 'fII& " ,
ROYAL COMMISSION ON LABOUR•
IN lNDIA
BOMBAY PRESIDENCY~
FIRST TllEETING
KARACHI
Wednesday, 1~tD.OctOJ,er 1~
l'uslnlT:
The IU. ROD. :1. lL WIIlTLSY (C~).
The R'. R .... v. So SBnn>"..... !UsmJ.e.R.,
p,e.
Sir ISH'my R~ Xt.• K.C.S~.
CJ.E.
Sir At.Bul<D1IB lIumu.r. Kt.. C,B.E.
Mr. A.. G. Crow. c.I.E., LCA
)(r. K-uIm-_Dm AmmD.1I.LA..
1Ir. :1omr CLxw.
Mr. G. D. B....... Jl.L.A..
Mr. N. II. JOIlBJ, II.L.A.
Dnr..,. C1uJu1o L&u., Jl.L.A.
_ 11. II. LIt POD POWlIB. •
Lieut.-CoI. A. J.lL R......... C.B.~,
LII.8.(Ar_A_).,
Mr. C. S. C. HARBISOIf. en., I.S.E., Chief Engineer.
Lloyd.Barrage .... CaaaIs CoadnIetion.
A·I. 7'.. ('1...._ : llr.a_,yoa .... &heChiefEDgineerof the IJDyd ~
aDd CaaaiB C_ _ _ t-Y...
A·!. 10u haTt!! been good enough to submit to US&uryct.e.r statement on the
8Ub~te with ...mt:'a ~ ~ ooneernrd rela.tin,g to the work fcrwhit'h you are responsible.
We shall shortly ~y • 'risi~ to _ for ourselves somet.hiDg abon' 'yOU' york.
and limo¢ne. _ ..... that _ _ _ hedotaiuingy...... ""Ylenj!thto.day. You
UTe told U3 'Very clearly in your meIJlOn.Ddmo. Ule variou.streams of migration m.
whidt your labour is reennWG and i' appean til.. for -the most part it; ia eontraet
Iaboart-Y_ ,
A-S. I an it thendonrthMyw dODOtleep.~r of the worhre011 your-wheme?
-X, not nominal~ We bepaftOOld of daily attendeJKle of the total number
aI people, and monthly _tryto_,hem ...to _ ....__ uoq....l;t;eo aod
with _ to the diileftBt ...... of the ~ _ which >hey ...... and the
_ _ _ ollaboar.
A-4 lIa.- yea any tabulated dde=en !-y-. I bve go&; it in. ftMIgh fonD. ; Inri
I m.n lrift yoa • sCalemen' at the ....arioua kiDda ol elllpIoyeee coming from. diftenDt
_ _ ;( yoa _ like to han i'-
A-6. ThaI. wiD MiD. «w:t"eetitMt of wita.t 7- b..., Wd .. !-Y,.; I will gne yeo
tM oe-.l &gm.. '
_.-15-1

6. 2
A-6. There is ODe point I should partioulady like to uk you whether that -record
1tb.ows the number of people who return over and over again to your- work: f-No.
A·7. Then at each. re-engagemeut after they have been book home they are. as far
as you are concerned, new labonr t-Ye6, that is right. The only thing we are intereated
in ia the increase in the numbers. We wa.ut numbers~ if we can get them.
A-S_ Would you ten Ushow you p~y the oontr&ctoro f Ant they paid monthly f-The
oontraoton are paid M often B8 we can poaaibly meaaure u~ their work.. The work
is. meaaured up onee .. month if the contractor is .. man. Wlth big oa.pital; otherwUe
if he ia a man with small capita.l we meaau.se up ODce a week if neceu&ry. Our aim
is to keep the small contratltor if possible, and meaanre his work &8 often &II he wanta
money.
A·D. You have no knowledge of or reaponaihility for the method by which the men
them.aelves are pa.id by the contractors f-No. As mentioned in my written statemeut
complainta loon come to US if the people &1'9 not being paid properly~ They come up in
numbera before the Government officer and la,,.we ha.ve been awindled U or .. under~
paid by the contractor". We then get hold 0 the oontr&etor, U8e our- good offices and
Q8 that things are put right. We have no real power to make tbe oontractor deal
sqaarely with his labour, hut I think that on the whole. when we take him to task
'Severely and ten him thatthere is trouble ahead of him. he ffill!. into line with n8 and triea
to oorrect his waY"
A~10. Is the ohief complaint tllat payment is delayed too long I-No,"'" The chief
~ompl&int it ahoutswindling over the measurements ofwork done by each group O'f labour.
Generally they wGrk in groups of 10 or 15. Practically all the work ia done on pieee~
'Work eynem. The contractor puta just a few men Gil a muater to dO' miscellaneous workp
.and those men, I think. aTe pa.id fa.irly regularly; otherwise he could not get them, fGr
no one wanta to go on a muster.
A"H. Does he pay monthly, fortnightly O'r weekly ?-1 think he pays them weekly.
It iB a very small p&yment becaoae m06t of the people a.re indebted to him j he hu given
'them very heavy adv.ncea; :,tlayathem only a little just a day before the bazaar
1M' grain aDd settles up his 80· &oOO1ID:ta a.t the end of the 8eaa6n" .
A·12. Bow long do you a.nticipate the constructional work will continue !-It will
oontinuetilll9M. The great bulk of it will be finished iD June 1932when'W'aterwill be
let into the oanala. After that it will be a matter of (lompleting outlym,: and miacei•
. laneoua works. We are aiming at ha.ving in the yefit 1932 something like 400,000 units,.
if w.pouibly .....
A-IS. 'What mea.ning do you attach to the word n unite" in that connection 1-lt
meen. !&bo.. employed throughout the yeer. W. take the monthly totals end add
them up. As I ,aid, we hope to get 4OO,OOO~ I have BOme figuree if they will be of
interest to you. _
A-I4.. That will be the :maximum on oomtructioneJ lPOJ'ktJ f-Yee,. that it what we
wa.nt on oonstruotional work.
A-I4&. The ••pply 01 !&honr hall been I... I,hen 'you could employ I~o..iderably
Jess. loangiveYOllolleortwo:6gures, In 1926 oar maximum in llnYonemon~hwaa
16.271 in the month of Fehruary 1926. 0 .. miDimum ..... in Augnat 19211. 6,769.
The total number of unita on themonthlybaais for the year waa9"1,OOO. In 1927 oar
ma:rimum. was 16,154., which wae ratherlen than thepreviou.. year; batthe monthly
average waa more because we had 142.291 units as against 97,000 for tbe previOWf. yea.r.
In 1928 our monthly maximum rose to 26,024.. oW' minimum to 12,376. The total
~ployment fer that year was. 22{),944. For this year" oar monthly maximum rose to
38.000 in the month of !larch and the minimum 10 far (up to the end of July) was
19~600, whioh is greator than our m.nmuw in 1921. Thtt total Dumber of uuite
~mployed is 2Ol),866 for seven mouth. 'Of this year. So we shaJi probably get olose
upon 300,000 thia year.
A-16. 1 am notquitle ilieMyet how you reokon the-unit. The le.rgeetnumberemployed
at one tim. hitherto is 36,000 !-Yes, thet ill right_ Correctly i. is 38,300.
A-1ft. How do you convert the.t into units '-I h&n t&ken each month', figures and
....dad them up. end to get the average divided them by 12.
A-I? Jlf'. Cli./!: That comea to S8,.OOOin enemonth ?-Ye.. This year, formtance.
in January it was 28.907. in February 35,037; in March. 38,~ in April31,72t, in M;ay
30,000 odd, in J1IIUI20,OOO odd end in Ju~ 19,000 add_ Thet to~ up to 206,856 which
ia the ~ I ga.. yo. juet DOW_
A-I8- PAe ONi,.",..: I notice that you. IDggest that aome of tbese workeJJJ ma.y
become settlere wben your echeme is completed ?-Yea.,

7. 3
.!.-III. Wh... your ""he",..'" rompleted. will ~"l'."" be gi_ to thoae ..ho ha... -
....n ,,~ OIl oonst<uotional work !-No, I do not thiDk the.. will be lIllY particulAr
~.......sbOWJl- Itlw'ltiti.."""'"'Ollof..-omi.... Firotof aIItbe Bomb&yGooom-
men• ..nn. I preeumo, look after<heir own Hoek, _ is the people within "'" confinee of
the Bombay-"""Y- Thepeopleof..hom I modeputienlar......ti......th,,_
from OlIo "PIandO of Gujuat. who .... preot;y b&dIy oil; Obey ."" • _ ~
rainfall, _ tbey h..... gnoduaIIy drifted to our ___ ~ I_like to _
~ eettled heoauae they haft stuck to tiheirwork throughou.' the year; they have ~
been~_of &he h.h,...her_ ....-....ked _'''''JOEIyfor three ,....,_",,0
going tiD $.heir homes. It is obvieal tI:lM theae people haft DID attaehmeni to ~eir­
birth-pIt.oe. That is prob&bIy d... to -..om... -
.'-20.. Caa you. ten us ...hai is ~ Dumber who W'OUId be _ttJel8 !-I think 'ibia
_ _ people of whom 1_ opeaIcing _dn_'-'-' 2,000- ThaO is m....
wo:nen and ohUdren. Eve.ryone.. of comse,. expreasee .. will~ to aeUJe in ~ area..
' - - they thiDk they will get I!OIDOOhiDg f"" nothing; I iIliDk """ is ,he geooDII
idea.. .
'!'-21_ 10 y.... ...-ri......ride...... de.IiDg with heolth _ aaniiuy anangemenlo,
I DOtioe that YOIl say t.b..t exceptwhen ~borne epidemiat. are &nti~ or'"
is par1iiculady sca.t'O!~ IU) special arrangements are made on scattered wOl'b for ..
drinkiog _pply. " .... beiDg genenJly obtained from wells in the flew.,. 01 th..-
worb1--Y_~
.!.-~ Are th_ ....!Is tested to ... _ they...., fit for drinkiag '-No. 10 India "'"
peopIearevery~le~.tfindingout"'heretheycan~good..ier; animmediateenquiry
is .uw.y.m_from the local residenta as to which IS t.he bestwell inthe viaiDity andyou
lind e.erybody f10ckiDg to "'" porti..u..r well..
A-!1. y~ but in Chese dayw ~ are known kt he such subtle di&erences in .....ter
~ttbe_infonned_-..r or_nO _ahrays _ _ _ or _ _
may be aoy iafeeaOD. in $hat. water!-Quite SOy but direct,Jy we lee the smallest sign of
any~1JTOIlg, OIU' hospital usiatant is OIl theapot,. and we have the wa.ter-.sted.. . ,
it is geaeraIJ:y known whiok is he good well; we have Dever had. a caseW"hel'e a wen..
.. be good _ IIrou@ht lIllY _ to &he people.
A-M. WenId it be a matter 01 lIllY _, dilIicalty _tperiodical _ 01_"" from
......lIasbenldbemad.by""'.td!-N•• ldono..hink_ _be~gnMditiealty.
We oonId _down ......pIe oI_to be _ .. K__
.!.-2' I would melte "'" •_ _ for the ~ .....my of the _ of the
TOrkms !-Yes, I think it is • Tfiq good ~tioL
.!.-ll5- n.-it might be J'O"'ibluo disallow ~from_whi... ,....d..ogerouo
.. _ l-Y... in the .... 01 wells you oonId do_"
.!.-!6. Yoo _ ha...somenoti...p,Iton th_ _ _ had been tested andJIOO"'d
~tisfactory t-l bink~wvold haYe to put guards OD.. I do no$- think notices ale
m""h good in Iodia. The people_ driDk the _lor '"' _ read OlIo ""a..
.aft~rwvda.
,A.:!'i. I no~oe tbt yon aIso.y ii is difficult to p.t'eTfIM the ~ body of labov
from driDbngdiredfrom ~ riTel'!-Y~ we han-gmatdi8ieuItyiD. Sukkur, although
Ye' putpardaall theway alon,e-. We generally pu'o.n&D~..soldier~aadyou wiD seehim
-das~ <oI~ to.top .. pt.rty 1Nm driDbng from ....Ii...._ Althoogh they _ they
are DOt to drink from the river. and although a water-aupply is pnrrided forihem, they
....mgo to he river. have a ..,...Q, aDd then drink from the rive!'. .
.!.-!8. I rooognie _. dilli04lty: .till .. good deol_d be do... by ~, _ _
iD the m.a~r!-Y~"We" gift lectaree _ the people. We seod our sanitary impecto!8
round ill" _hip; they ioII the people why they ebenld not driDk _ _tor_Thy they eboold gei _ frnm the proper __
A·~ Inyourmem.onadmD. you tellasthat t:M balk of the labotarfonecm~aoheme
is not UDder -.he WOC'tmeD~ Compeua1ioD Ad ?-Tha' is eo.
.!.-30. WenId you fnrtber deli". iIle wan! .. _ ". distinguishiDg "'-who .... from
th_who .... not !-I sbenld _95per .........._pro--..L The-.ly pro_
a.ftotdecI. all we will. he able '"show-you: uSuk.t.ar~ ill tolhoeeemplo,oedin he mriN!icN
.....-ork:!;;aop,.tihe SlGae cb -,.. shop aDd. t.ho!e de.liDg widt. eIeciiric pawer. Th_ &Ie &he
..n1y people who_ ander_A", _ _ _ _ ebope .... _ . _ .
_ _ .... _inwhiolo _ _ iOpeopIewudl.
_-31_ I ........ wiill _ . _..... h......... _. yon p _ _ the . .
nquins aDd yuu leU _ tha~ yoa: deal wi.. .-cidenta which ue DOt coftled by lIt.e Aet.
as if ~'" ...,.eoaovend t-Y.. TIle Ad 0MDfII into forae aft,v tAe work Ud. stuk!d..
""l'1l~' my ...n- ...GODiRacSioDal.paeer I Aa'ft always.fek ..., tihere are a
lot of.ery"'" _ _ _ the A.'""", into foreeh.gg 1 UntbeBom_y
»flY 1~1.

8. ~=::"-~"A= ~e~:;"-=~put.~~:-~'-:::.~tIaat.~ I'i . tel ~
A-3iL l_it _ _ nay _ _ _-w.for _ _ iDl.... _.IibonI__ _ ?-No. n_,....__1_ h".... wi... tile ~~_; nO
&blia DOt tile eMe,.. ~ propIe~. 0dI0at:is ~,wIteIt titey an ··adb"l" IJt.eir
...._,...,.-,.- ___ liIoen.l..-_I_
A-33..II.,.I_n_~eumpIe"_ _ il_"'~"' __Act ~I t.lWt.k it ..--ld be posiWe UIIIl it is ....- He
A-M. T......... _Ia........."... ~!-I _ _ _ ..~.... _
r....a..r_"'.........__..........-.. I_i._ _.._ ·.......ba<-
....·...rupriseifi> ........ _~ ~ ... aII ..• p. _10....... _
~ ~GLditicwr.,.. _we"Mei:a Sial.. 1_eeadin.. ftidt aft'DOI aamped
... ill fadorie&. I ilUnk dteft shoaid be ... ftai........ We.-W IItOft' ~
ia th~ ......of wd' *.th &cope of Ute Act..
A-35. Hant,..... My ~_ to .................... _1........ _ ..'<1>' be
kough, _theAd!-1 will'",...........a ""PY 01...,. _ _ .....bjocl to u..
_",'0I.1ndia. Tb.-y __ abeody"-'" ~ 01. iDa - g tI>e ....
_ the A.... I wiII_.pcUl 0I.....m.g il "':r--""'-
A-3L 'numk,.... ihat 1I"Orlld _ ws8aL Yoa My: "Xo .~hIa imjWuceeeal
iD _.fficieDc-yol~GD_ ...... oIwwkdoalt wilh by_"- Me _ _ _
iD ~t ~.. And thea ill reply 10 oar ~~ 'U!lderthat ~ .. :o ...
~ medodls eI ~ ~ ~KYyoc.y: UEdao!:atioa of tIae ...... to
tab a gre-ater prid& ill ---.llahoar &!e1II8 to me tile 0DIy rflicieDt:a:.~ 01. ....i·..
!I'N- ~..' Do,-:,m.wif iMnt is: UIJ" reward (wiDe.! ' . . ,. ____
_ haft'" -u..f__ IJ"riGd_ ha___ ---"'t.......,.all
'IVWUd!d ....... iI. _1Pft.l!-Not .. Oattua ~~ p.ido: .... .nL.
It _ _ _ _ _ _ ~wolI._pi<k.-_._~ ...pp..._ -
eepJoym.est i:a pl8eNDC~ 10 lIMItyaruy _piG) '.or ~ ~ ... B!'Il
wwkiD2 OD ~ dn.g~ IQ~Talms .actwe haTe • ~ &IDOIIDI of -..ski!W .t:e.r
ahoat Ute.....u,.... B In!1iDd. sa&l't .... iB"~ ~ ~ it pat _ ...,,"~_..:l
_01_ In- _!oe~pUd~ __ twt...; ........... :!op"' ......
mOft'- ..... Jie. W'OIIld set.... onti.DHy laboalft' ~. the cu:..lL 'Ikal. Jac.. we ~ _
iDeftMe aM eIici&c]" fJf ~ wudmea..
A-37. Woaldn ...... COI"I't"dtoaay ...,aay... -no-....s .eL....}m._orl;
)au .. oppwW:ai'Y" im~ his paiin..?-I ...... DOt. pd ..... ~-vd u a
..-nl statPlllellL So fat' MOW wmb aft ned. 5IIdl ~ aM tfRk") ___ ami
If ~ aft tibJy to ftaW::. ia SiDd. dte-y ... at ~ lakeD., by _ .. aa u:: ,..O,N
motiDg.
A-3S. .P. 8e&11ri: l1aat pam. .. ~ laho.r • _tad W--'" ....:~::'Il
ctinetla....... lorwhid>,..... .... _I>Io!-I ...__ tlIe .... 1ipnB,. loa, 1';"_
_ :rlllat _ 8 to 10.- _L _the _ .. _~ dire<CIy .,...
A-3!l. to Ihlo 8 ... ID .-_'-'iir..... labaur_ _ _~:'_t.d wid ~ ...
- . . . medieal ..n.t _ _ ...~ ___ .......- !-y.., .. ~
hat DOlia pn.ttiee.. We did DOl1Ofttaa ~caIl_ . . ~, " ___ we
iesued. aotice tbi ambvlGn woatd be 'ME 'w., fer ... ae.hll eI. am~. ~
is to My far die ordi:DarT dilIiriktiraa of qaiD:iDe. etc. Bat _ ~ W'& do __ of •
-....~_~ ~'-i'" Go.. . _......... 100-.
A-4&.. fa retped 01. _ I ___ .... ad........ _ lie _!-Y«<.
I hiDk _ ......hf*.~" •cIocoioIed ......... to _ _ _ .........
-.t ........
A-41. Thfte.ao~of.....iadiftlctC.. l18'rice1-'fteIe ... Cfttaia
_ _t ol ~iD <be ..."-IDio.... _. _ .... ..,........ 1 IiliDa: _ _ ...
_ leakage hot OM people .... 'IlIlto wiIIias ...__ lo _ _mII.
A-42. WlIat diiLltazl! ...w it_ate .. ~ if .. wk_ .. 1M ~ .-e ~,
_lMd..eealmH ~"'-e simply C!GaId .... iL Y_ IIaTe to ftaII!!Bbar dtal ...
__.........,.~__.......~ .......... -- .,..-ol....,._..,._..... gina. ~ will .... _ _I..to I.a-"- .... _ - ..,.
eGaD'J7 and ~ilrift5 ell '0oar...... lIIo.-rtlaai .. prokWy ~ )eoea
__at II-.. by ........'-'.on. The l a " - _ ....... Ie...-..... ~
aadelohim by lite ftIIttrvierl'. ne. he_ye ....IMv-.GOi&lidN!':Dt~t."''''';
l1ri1l by to geC 011. 'Co theG~l &1IShr.- To ~dtea"' ••ve-I fttfJ--
oihilily. I ......... taU "P ... ~ ,.... __....... _ Woo f<DL B. is ft"JI'
•

9. 5
o!tea. pd &0 CCQ'; 1 .bIe lois ~ to guap of laboo.r I'IIIIDiDg ....y without ftIMOIL,
'TItere isaometi_ a ~ lJutwe-have bad euesol ~ of meo.si.mply going away_....,._Oized___....,....._goO ....y with mt.herbigad_ _
--.A-U. I WWI tryiDg to look ., il . . - &0.0 the point _ ......, _ the J-.-
"tl!e:llnelftS. WoaJd there be .. great impiowemcat in the conditioDS if '&he l.a.bour were
clealt_:thclo~taIIy_""with_aid _ _ t-l _ til.... woaW.
~.
A-K. Bat y-. _ _ ~ woaId he _PUDed by grM$ _ _
inconnnieoce to Go.eziDDUil 7-11; WOIdd eerlaiDJy entail. greM liability to Govem-
meat.. Wbe&lt.er1ill.U Iiahili'lf woaJd .Ia tdv becIGme lID ~ ODO does ao$ kDo9.
We should -..ou""the ~ COIlWolihat ibe eontD,et:.or-hu 0T'er the 1aJ:tc:Ja:r8'.
'l'br _ _ ill able to fo!lo1F the runaway ~ hoclt to ma ~ _ goO him
bock ogoiB. We shoaId reqGire • wry big orgar;""..... to ....we as to ao ~
A-4.5. Y_saymyourlltaiemeat.thata!though it is not an ohligation of GOTeI'DDl.eat.
otiII medical _ ill loop.!aUer by Go.emmeD' ageucioe f-Y...
A..{6. YOlldoth.h..ther ... _oIba.....uty _Go_tal __ t.baa
... pan 01 yow- ""P"""ibility for _labourer 1-That is 80-
.1-4.1. n 16econtradordos DOlaccepi it .. an ohligatioa to look after fum. in thai
Y.Y you ooMider ii to be .. mere ch.aJ:i:ty to do 90. Are not the labourets in .. difficuli
~tioa! I was Hying to view it from tihM point of Yie1r. Is ft not desirable that ..
sptem sbould be _ by ..bioI> ....,.,.oaldbe looked "l""'''_body's .......... t
At; present is is oei~ the CODHaetor'"s DOr the ~8 zespollBibility I-WeD.
it. i!I suppo;ed to be Ule conCndor"s. I quite a68e thaa; it; W'OIlId be to '&he intereslll of
_I"-"r to be d.anitoeIy _ _body auoL I.boald uy preferably _0-....-
......L It to .... all -....uy grM$liaIJility. I <101Ild g;.., Iigmoo. The coot 01
$be medical ozganrration on thia &Cheme worb OIlt ~ roughly Rs. 80.000 .. year. I
lappeD to be looking after it m,-. It might beve go... up to ..... or 1hree Iakbs 01
ftlpee5 if we had allowed iaddiste to uvetheirway_ I hMe .. aeheme deYiaed on prac-
t;ica.llinea from. t.hela.ym.ants pointef new. 80 far we have met all the calls made upon
... _ the..,.. is cmly Bo. 80.000 peryeK. That ......... to a_.O·25 per ....t. 01_
......a&l er;penditme.
A-l8.. 8;' AIQlSa2.er 11SITIIf: You. _y in yourwri*len evideBce under the head. "Ua-
_ploymeal·· ..."<here_doUitely.... goodgroandafaraay ........l'loymoa.problem
inSind." .lint... WuDd_ goiDg roUDd Karaebi a gteald..! of anemploymeat. Y_
day ..hell we Tisit.ed &be Porl- Tt-uA workmen~& housea we saw &. gre&" many worked
wbo..... >booogbt.. oaghl to be 1I'OdriIlg _ of Bitting idle. What is the dilference
be_ the Sukkur Barnge ..-.. _ the eootie IabOnrero hue in Karachi! Thy
-do not ~ unemployed workeN go to the Sakkur ~ works 1-There is little 01'
DO diiierenee. I do uc.t know what sort o! _boariB referred to. "-or instance."1nm! they
Af~~ becauM: we employ. lot of MAra..1 But the men. may not want to move..
boca.... tbey ban been ~ to doing pmely doek labour or h&Ddlmg ooaI. We
have gotsimi.la.r...-ork to doin Snkkurand no greaterexeriioo is required there than they
hav~ too undergo hme (K.ancbi)~ In ~ theooo.oentn.tedez-ertionof loading and 1ID.-
loWing a .hip is probably ~ 'lhan the a?eZagB spread over energy that we require
from oar people. So that _ ill DO ....... at all_I ....... wby tIIey 1h0lild ....
go up to Sakkur.
A-49. The... ill DDeDlploymalll here in Ksncbi -]'OIl""~ labour a' Suklmr.
"Haft you. made any Mtempt to aikact laboar from ..., to Sukkur 1-1 'ibink our COD-
_ _ h• ..,. awl they will probably make mil _er attempt&. _ _ this ___
". be... a b;g programme awl ,_ ill great ahmtap 01 labour.
A·&). So far as you personally bow$ there is no reMOD. why hundreds of labourers
~rr in need of employmmat should DOt go to Sukkure.ad beeUlployed !~To I!le-IlO
apparent ftUOD. at &1l.
A-51~ For instanee we .... Pathans idling here in Karachi. They pus Sukknr 011..
their way _ !-EsactJy.
A-S2. Wbydolbeyllota"'y atSakkDrt-Y"" probably mer to the BaT.... PalibaaB.
There are different kinde of Patlmna; some only come see.sonally~ ..hUe othen ...ork
.all the yearrouod .""'y from theirownCOlllltry. TheIle may be BtrnaIi Pathanaand they
may think bat the climate of Karachi i& Tery muchmom comfortable than ttIai of SukIrur
in the hot; weather.
A-53.. Do yoa _ploy.BaraoR Pat.bano t-Y_. batDot in Iarge .......ben. ThNDgb-
<OIlt &he year I do BOt think we h&ve 6Q() IJ...- Pathaoa 011. oar worb D.OW. ftereM 1fO
get M,lDU,.. aa U;,~OOO to 20.000 Patb.. on oar worb in the cold weaShu.

10. 6
A-54 Generally apeak:ing you do not see lUll' teason why hundreds. if not thOUB&nda~
of men who are &t present unemployed at Karachi should not be employed at the Sukkur
Barrage t-lt appe&18 to me there is no rea80n why they should not.
A-50. In your memorandum. dealing with the question of efficiency. you say ~ "Gene..
rally speaking the efficiency of: the la.bourer ia as it was 25 years ago bot as the rate of
W&gea'baarisen the value of work done for wages paid shows & distinct increase m
coets It._That iB so.
A..08. You have been connected with la.bour for many ye&rs. Can you give ull-
atatistioal information sbowing the wages paid for dilterent types of labour ..t
difterent periods, to~day. 10, l~ or 2S ye&r& ago t-l can get that information and
I .h&ll be very pleased to supply that to the Commission. At present I have not got
it here.
Clu:drmfllll.: Conld we have it here when it is ready t-Y~ I shall get it and send it.
A-57. Bi,. Al.e.mftdw MU'f'rGJI: You will please give a sort of gradua.ted table showing
the wages paid overa period of yeaJ'8 and brought up-to-da.te as far as posaible which will
put the faot8 in • nutshell t-Yea. I shall get that informatiOB.
A~57... Not gene1! information.-;-N()~
A-58. Similarly e&n you get e.nythin~ to show the dUfenmee in the cost of living to.
day from what i.t waa80me years back wIth regs.rd to the coolies and other types of l.bour
that you employ.onconstruction works '-It would be difficult for me to get that inform-
ation, hut fa.irly acourate d.a.ta ca.n be got from the Direct9r of the Labour Bureau in
Bombay. I shall try and get that also and send it.
A·69. Mr. A.m.td : I understand Mr. Harrison. that you ordinarily pay your labour
higherwagea-lhan are paid by the contractora t-Y~ that is correct.
A~60_ You sa.id in answ&r to the Chairman that swindling o11abourers by the contrac~
tors i& one of the chief reasons why the labourers who go home are not bT(nlght ba.ck by
the contractor t-I did not oy so. ' .
A-Sl. At any raw the _me contractors do not bring back the labonl'e1'B who go
home I-I think they very often do.
A-62. Yon said that the old workers do not generally return ~o the wo't'k oace they
go home..-I do not think I &aid.that. ~ .
A-63. Do you get back the old -worket:a'f-Yes. I think & very large ntunbercom.
back. AB I have mentioned in my written memorandum nothing spreads. quil"ker in
India. than the news that a contractor is not treating his men properly. It is uot auy
euy matter for the contractor to- NCruit labourif he hsa treated. his men unfairlY.
A-64~ Do theoontr&Otors repa.triate their coolies if they want to go home '-Yea. If
a ooolie does not run away tbe contractoralways pays biB return fare. Of COlIl'86 he cute
it out of his pay, but he art'&np to k.ee~ money for his return ticket. He advances
moner.to startwith and buys the labourer 8 tickets. Of course he getB th&t money hac~
prob&bIy 'With interest. The contl'6Ctor will always asaist ~e laoourt"t to get baek to.
hit. home. I have not known of laboureta being stranded when they have finish~ the
WO<k.
A..65.. How- do you know they get auistanoe !'-BeeauBe I have ile?er known tbem.
atra.nded.. - ,
A-~ Do you know for oertain that they get money to go home !-Tbat ia what th&
oontractoreinform me and I haveaoreaaon to thinkitia not true. OtherwiBetherewould.
be oouiderable numbers of people wandering about and S00D8r or later. it would come
to our notice. Allauch abuaes come to our u'ltioe. That is what I should <'aU & major
&hu.Re. people being broup'9 t.o &. foreign country and left B*nt.nded. ""f'should be bound
to hear of that., H we did not hears at least the District Oflioials would be bound to hear
of it if & large number of labourers were stranded in that way. 1 am Bot speaking of
iaolatedeasel7 but of anything in the nature,of a general complaint.
A~67. Very often disputes between labolll"&rs and contractor. regarding meuuremf'nt
create trouble~ How are they settled 1-Thei are genel'aUyaettled by at. through our
good offioee, as I have mentioned in my .ta~ment. .
A·68. How many suob easel; ocour in a yea.r t-They are not individual e&I68 but a1'&
mus oomplainta. When I ormy otlioetl go on & particular work a body ofmen1I'il;leom.
towarda one and sal. 'H Sahib. we have got a complaint to make." The ofticer W111 asl4
U Whatis the complaint Ilf They wil1aay that the contractor or the contraetor'a jftft4-
dar i. in lome way awindlingthem. Hitia. 0&1& of theeontraotor', jemadaritia &neaey
matter, beoauae we give the contraetoran order not to employ that particular jemadar.
That haa a moat &&luta.ry efteot on the jemadtrts.. • .

11. 7
A.69. Rave you got any offioe1'8 deputed for the purp08e of settling dispute. between
oontra.cton and labomers !-AU our subdivisional oftioers and allthe subordinates onthe
works han distinct orders to 8ee 88 far as poaaible tha.t there is no mndling. We
have no authority to look into the eontraotor'. accounts; that is his own private00_A.70. Canyon give.US &n idea of the- rates the contmotO:r8 pay their la-bouren &II com-
pared with the ...teo they get from you. '-Yeo, I can gift you "" id.... I discovered ..
few oases in whioh the oontr&Otor W&8 able to get labour fOr extraordinarily low :i-&tes.
rates much lower than we had ever hea.rd of in Sind in recent yean. In one case we
were paying .. contractor Re. 84-0 per 1000 c.ft. of earth work, while he was actually
payiDg the eooliee only Ro. 4.12·0.
A·7l. What is the difference !-Government eontra.eta with the .contractor and pay
him Rs. 8-4-0 or Rs. 8·8·0 per 1000 cJt. and from our enquiries we fOUIld that in one
specifio 0&88 the oontractorwas paying only Ra. 4-12·0 tothe labourers. We are interested
in these ~ bec&use in running this big e.eheme on commercial linea we are trying
.to cut out the big contractor a.nd to get into direot touoh with the small contractor. I
find there is a big difference between what we pay the big and.small oont-ractor~ So that-
it ie to Otll' interest to eliminate &8 far M possible the big eontra.ct0J8. To that end we
always make enquiries reg&rding the rates pa.id by the contmotor8~ Since we diBcovered.
that case last year. I ha.ve asked my officers partiouJarly to enquil'e'into this matter. I
find in some cases there is very little m&rgin of profit to the eoutractor.
A-72. Haveyou gotanytestcase80thatwemay be in a. position to eompare the wages
paid by your contr&ctora with the wages the labourers are getting elaewhereand to bow
the profits the contractors are ma-king 011. the transaction t-No.
A-7S. It is nearly 100 percent. according to you inthis oan '-MyexperienoeinIndia.-
is that. if I am to believe the oontmctbra. they never meJre Any profit at all. It would
be very difficult to get that information.
A-74.. Inspite of that, the ma.jorportion of the workia donetht'ough the contractors !-
Exactly.o.
A.74&. '!'hen the contractors are very philanthropio f-1 can get eert&in informa-
tion from my officersif you w~nt it, as tolal'g:e diBcrepancies in rata.
A.7S. Do you write to any union or topeople who supply labourin the vicinity of your
wOl'k aaking them to supply you with labour't-No. There are no s:qch men ~ whom
we can write. The jemadara a.re illiterate. There are DO bvea.ux or anything of that-
kiIId.
A-'76. Could not lome of the labour unions npply you with labour !-No. I have-
never been approached by any labour union to give them work. I do not know any
union sufficiently _ to'I'hioh I can .pply with OIly_lui_peets 01 gettmg co·opera-
tion. _ •
A.77. Are nOot the- rates given for la.bour 8upplied by the uniona lower th.n the rates
given to the oonn.cto-ra I-Btlt will the labour uniona take responsibility: fN- ·the,
advances whieh have to be given to the labourere to get them to come to our 'Worb t·
Th.t is our difficulty" ! • .
A-'lL Have you aaked whether they would Undertake that responsibility t-No.
I ha.ve had nothing to do with them. I ha.ve, up to certain limite. been able to oazy
On with the mrual practiae of uaing the contractor. If you could t-ell me of something
better, I mould be very pleaeed. .
• A·'7s.. You -nannot prove from yOUI' boob of account-that m&ny laboUl"8l'8 have-
ohea-ted the Go...ernment or the oontract01'8 ; y<lu have not got test <l&seel-Labourers.
oheating GoTernment!
A·'l8b. Yea. taking adv6llcea- and ~·hen not doing the work !-Government- makes no-
advances.
A.780. Bat the oontr&Cton !-The eontradora give advaneea. yeL
A.79.. How is it that the Government. without giving advance6, can get a supply of
labour I-The contractor gives very heavy advaneea; Government does not. As I
mentioned juat now. if it-is fC)reignlabour. it is generally brought down by the contractoJ;'.
and it gradually drifte from the eontnctor on to OUl' works. I am always stoppiJrg at
attempte by ()Ul' .taft to take contractors' labOll1'; but if the labourer has finiahed his
work for the eontraotoJ' and likes to come into ~ur employ~ we are glad to have him; it
ill, of OOUl'll~ auch labour that has come to our worka Dot at our coat or ri.k but at the
oontraetor'. COlt and risk.
A..so. Yonr aaheme it .. vel'f"1arge scheme-; pt'ollabI,. the Sukkur Barrage scheme i&
the J.e.rgeat. in· Indie. t-It is the largest of ita kind in the world, I think.

12. 8
A.81w 1 think you ha.ve spent some 18 to 20 Cl'()res T-Up to the present day we have
.spent mUDd about Rs. 10 crorea. '
A·82.. And your 80heme is so large that you wiil spend .. moah larger amount I-Yea.
20 crorea in all .
A·82&. Considering the amount you. have spent and the still larger amount you are
going to spend on the works, can you suggest better methods 01 obtaining supplies at
labour !-Nop olhand I Olin make no auggestion for &ny better method of deaJiDg with
the labour force.
A-82b. After the ezperienee you have had and in view of the fact that you have stated
the high rate paid to the contractor with which you ha.ve compared the lower rate paid
tc the l&bourer, oan you, for the benefit of la-boup~ 81lgge*t any bet_ methodJ; of
obta.ining your supply of labour ?-N.o. I oa.nnot see a.ny-not without giving
advances, and I cannot lee that the St&te is jnstifi.edin risking the t&xpayers' money
to that el<t<mt.
A-ll20. Looking at the q_Iion from the pointof vi$w of the labo"",r. do you think II
would be better to p"y the labourer direotly .. higher wage "'ther than p"y lhat high'" .
rate to the contractor, who retsina pamofit t-If the labourer were paid the higher rate
direotly, I think it would work out In the end tha.t Gov&1'nment would pay s.till higher
rates than it pa.ys at present. Itia all a question of eoonomiCJI; it ill not a question of
philanthropy at alL .
A·83. Can you BUfiestany method by which the oonditionsof labour would be ameUo.
raled by ohlaining wag•• which m;ght be higher than those paid by the contractor and
yet possibly lower than that at preaent paid by Government to the contractor f-No~
1 ha.ve already touahed on that Bubject in my written evidence; I have said what the
m'lthods al"e and what they might possibly be. and I have alao spoken of the poasibiUty
ofaboeeo.
A.84. How long have you been on this scheme 1-1 bve had 27 yea. experience of
construction.
A·SS. In view of tha.t long experienoel can you suggest any methods by which you
eould ameliorate the conditions of labour by paying them a slightly higbR wage than
the oontra.ctors ha.ve been paying. and a.tthe sa.metimedec-reasing theexpeue to O<>vern-
m'mt f-IhaV88aidyes-by Governent shouldering the responsibility of making heavy
advanoea.
A.S6. Can you answer my question 1-1 have said yes. provided Government is
prepamd to ~ the risk; bllt. speaking as a responaibIe officer h&udling th~ taxpayers'
money. I think we at8 not justified in doing that. . . - -
A·57. From t1>e oollllll8roial point·of view I-Yeo, from·.th. commeroialpoi'li of
~ew. .
A·SIt Can you .nggeat any mea1lll of gelling yow .upply 01 labour hy P&ymeut of
.lightly higher wageB than the wages the workers am at. ~nt ~viD8 from. the
contractor 1'-No~ ,
A-88a. You see there is a.pparently 1& coneidera.ble. margin between the rate paid by
G4vernmentto the contractor a.nd that paid by ne-OODtraotor to tho'labourer; there
appears to be profiteering on the part .of tho -fOntraetor ; oould 'jOU. therefilre# pay the
la.bourel' a slightly higher wage th&n he .ia receiving a.t presentfrom the gontrac-tor and at
the sa.m3 tim! pay the contr&t:ltor mther less: is there no scheme th&t- you can .~gest 2-
No. I mUilt repeat tha.t that.C&lllot be dpne without increuing the liability of Govern- f
men~ -
A-89. Mr. Olif/ ,"' 1 presume that the writteJin~momndm whioh you havo submitted
to thia Commialon ha.e e;~ci.al :reference to tAe LlOyd Barrage acheUltl t-Yes,
A.90. Ma.y I suggest th&t yoo have addreased 101ll'8elf to the problem :rather as aD.
engineer than au admini&trator f-No, I &.111 afraid my fun<rtJons here at present ani
70 per oent. those of an administrator and 00 per oent. those of an engineer. .
A.91. Then may I take it in 1_ proportlOOa I-I thl.nk .. ; I han had to look ..I it
very muoh from the administrative point .of i'iew.
·A.92. Will you help me as to
6
the ela.88 cl labour 011 this 'echeme whioh is
employed directly, whioh I think you said comprised 8 to .10 per cent.. of the
whole t-Yea.
A·93. With regard 0 the .1... of labour thet io employed direolly and that employed
through OODtmotora. wlmt is the distinction b&tween the two olaaees of Ja.bour: on what
workare they engaged T-For in8t&nce,.on thiaaaheme we employ a fair amount~ labour
in oonneotion with the dragline maobinery, the meohaaioal excavators; practioaUy aU

13. 9
"th.ose mtlh are men we have worked up from the ordinary unskilled la.bomv alau; "e
have had to tTa.in all those men ourselves; I believe that compris88 the bulk. Then wa
Bve our worbhop labour; we have two workshops there: the ordinary workshop and
..one for the repair of the dragline ucavator machinery. We have also a atone dressing
shop. Those are all men employed by us. Whenwer we o&n give t1iem individual
piece·work we do S(); otherwise they are on daily wage labour. The other olasa ooDsiata
-of ordina.ry unskilledlabour usedfor miacelhmeotla duties. As I think I have made clear
in my written memomndtlD4 wherever itis possible to give out work on mea.aurement
pieae~work we prefer to do that" rather tha,n muster labourers and simply aet what.
"Work we can out of them. There is a. certain amount .of work that has to De done.
fetohing and carrying~ miaoEill&neone work, where Government has to keep muter rolla,
whore one e&nnot bring the work down to 80 form of measurement.
A·SoI. May I take U the _ODd form of labour is labour employed by OOIltr&ctors f-
Yea. that is so.. .
A-9S. Ma.y I take it that thoee who are direotly employed on the dr-&g:liDea, the 9hopl
and the aOOnem&800's yard aTe SIlbjeot. to the Workmen's Oompenaa.tion Act t-On the
-<lra.glinea, no; but in the three shope I mentioned they are.
A·96. Ale they at all .abject to the Factory Act '-The three sbope. that ;. all,
. nothing elae.
A-97. Will you give me the percentage of labour that is employed in the three shope
"part £tom tho draglinoe '-I .""Iiiget it for yo. by the time yOll go to Sakkur.
A-9&. Can you give it to me approxima-iely !-The shopa an very much less; I should
~ the shops represent about lO or 12 per cent. of ft.eD. labour.
A·99. Ten or 12 por cent. of the 8 pel' ..nt. ",hiob is dizectly employed ?-Yea.
A.loo. Is that the only labour which is 81lbjeot to any protective statutory regulation
<On the scheme 1-That and anybody employed iD. the electrical part of the scheme.
'I'he'eleotrica.1 trade Gomes und.ertbe Workmen's Compens&tion Act, but not.hing else
<loell.
A-IOI. None of the otherlabour is subject to &Dy ata.tutory regulatiouat aU !-No_
A-I02. As an engineer do you agree in, prinoiple with workmen's oompensa.tion t-Yee,
I do. . .
A.lOS. .J)o you agree with mokneB8 insurance t-1 think I would-at prelent
-certainly in the abstract: but I think it is &, matter which would have to be gone into
very carefully:
A-I04. I am at the moment concerned with principles._. May I ask if you agree in
principle with unemployment insurance t-As ap~ to India, no.
A-lOS. You do not a.gree with the principle of unemployment insura.nee t-lio.
A-lOS. But you do agree with the principle of workmen"'s comPensation and sioknea
insuranoe l-Yes.
A·I07. Will you make clear the r&diua from which this: contr&et lab01ll"ia brought;
you have stilted in your evidence oert&in pla.ceet but ca.n you give m& apprOS!im.a.tely
_ miIoage 1-1 ahveld think all wiehin 500 miles.
A-lOS. Of the B&rr&ge BOheme t-No, some "'0.111 be a little further: it would be 500
miles genen.Uyspeaking and probably 750 milee 808 the erlreme limit. Tha.t is~ of course"
in bulk; we have cases of people ooming aU the way from Madras and we have got them
from Bhutan.
A-lOS&. An area of a.bout 700 square miles '-No. 700 miles radius.
A_lOg. Are adva.neea in those caaea an economic necessity 1-1 take it they must. be ;
~t.h-erwiaetheoontractorwould. proba.bly be a.ble to gethis la.bonr without giving advanC8L
Up to .. certain point they lore an economio necessity. From my experience and the
-enquiries I have made. itis diffioult. to 8ay whether it.is & true eoonomio neoeasity; often
the laboUl'8l'8 get the88 advances and finish their 86880n a.t home. they marry their
daughte!'8 and tlbeirsoDS and then try loud. work off tf8 &dvan0e8. Iti.e a debt theyinour.
I suppose it may be for do:n.eatic obligations ather than for a.bsolute neoessitiea.
A·llO. Suppooingtbe workmanbao toIea..,bish""'" andtravel.,.y 100 miloo,leaviDg
hie family~ it is likely that he would ",antsome money to pa.y his :railway fan t-Yea. he
always geta th.&t.
A·HI. That is pa.rt of the &dVlmce·1'-YeI, that is part of the advanoe; he
invariably gets that. That wveld be a very......u part of tho ad.....oo.

14. 10
~-1!J'. Would it be ne~ryforh~ to leave .. email amount of money at home 1-1'
think lt wonId be oonvement; otherw'UIe he losea & oert..in amount by haYing to lend it
by money order a.nd 10 OD; theM is .. riak of losing it.
A-113. If he is driven to the Barrage acheme by economic necessity, is it not likely
that lome money would be required at home !-Yea, .. small amount may be required.
at home; but. on the whole, I think th,peopie mther gamble with these advances.
A-ll4.. So tha.t while a certain amount of the advance may be misused, there is an
economic neees&ity underlying it f-Yee, I agree; but when it comes to 20 or 26 ~
oent. of a man's working capacity for .. &ea80n, it strikes me as being rather a big
adva.ne8. .
A.lI5. Is it a fact that Government get this permanent regular labourforce that they
have by reuon of the contractora having pr&viouly given the labourers advance& to
bring them to the loheme !-Yee. I am talking 8peci6.cally of Sind,. bee.me in general
Government can get ita ordina!)' labour requinments on their Dluater& hom local
labour.
A-II6. I am confining my questiolll' to Sind. Do you agree with the auumptiOD
unde~ the question of Sir AJexa1lder Murray that there were hundnds aDd p088ibJy
thousands lIllemployed in Karachi f..,....Yea, from what I hear trade is very alalek DOW in
Karaohi; the Shipping ia not as great as it has been and the?e must be a. fair amount of
dook labour idle.
. A~117.. Inyour opinion would it be of any value to have a publio employment agency
for Ka.raehi for the purpose of YOlIl' eeheme 1-1 have already mentioned that in my
written memorandum.
A·ll8.. Yes,Ieeethat f-Thereare~ersin that. I would Buuesttht'ft' aredangea
in connection with these public empJ~ent agencies.
A·llD. Of _ tho", are daagers' in many things f-Yoo. I tlrink it is a very ...r
danger in this _tty. '
A-l20. I understand contl'acWl'S do scoot for labour in Karachi ?-To .. very _man
extent in Karaobi i they ~ll not come to Karachi. They will send their men straight
oft to the Mekran to get their labourers from their home.; they will not uouble *0 get
any appreciable amount of their labour &om Karaohi.
A·121. With regard to .the r&pidity witb which information reapeetint!:' grWva.n.....
spreads.. might I a~t that information :respecting good ronditiODS would spread with
even grea.ter rapidity f-Y61, it would.
A·l22. Have you heard much about the good conditiona. eu the Barrage seheme !-
Y8. I can put my fingers nry quickly on t.he contractOl'8who deal fairly and BquaJlely
"ith their labour.
A.l23. Does it meaD that in the distriete. from which thoae contmcton .ob1ai»
labour there is no dlJIi••lty ";th regard to the supply !-Th~ .. so.
A~l24. Sir Alexander MUJ'l"ty asked for statistics witb regard to the com:~arative dtu.
ofwag..poi<!. Doth_raw. ofwageoonly apply to the dize<:t1.bour ....ployed by Oh&
Government!-There is not a Yery great varia.tion between tbe Government profit,..
constitutedin money. Of 0DUrIe it meana a. greaedeal tIOtbemanhimBelf. FOl'matance,
in Sind we can muster men from. 12 to 1,4 IUlIlA8 pel'day, ,..-bert"a8 we know the ('{)IlVactor
rta them at about 10 ann.... There is th.t 2 to 3 ItnIla8 difte:rence a day. whirh makes
an the diffeJellce.
A~125. Can yoa: .apply the f"-ommisaion, witl any degree of BlUety, with .. table in
regard to the ratee of wages paid by eOlltrartors r-Tian give you that. The contractor
pay. on the piece-work .,.r«m. r can give it in those term..
A.]26. Therea.rereoorda !-Only from our enquiries. We havemade auefulenquirles.
There iii DO method bI which we c&n examine,000tmetOl'll' books:
A-Ia7. There is no reeoni in uistence which 1IJould &how tbaU-No" but I C!M gil".
you certain 0_. ".
A.l28. I take it that you pay at ... muoh per th_.nd oubio feet t-:YeB. '
A.129. Would it be poAible to ten 1m what it. the labour coet now per thouMnd cubi~
feet compared with the labour _t per thouoand ...bio loet twenty J08'" ago !--Yeo.
I ooald got tbot.
A.130. In your memorandum under tbe head II Industrial efficiency of w-orkere" you
".1 CI. Twenty yea.re ago mechanical exoav.ton., for iMtaace. coakl nol compete wit-h
labOUl". It baa now been proved. that forearthWGl'k in beevy bulk mechamc.l exeaT.tara·

15. 11
cai more than hold their 0WlI against manuall.bour". Will you exPlain that to me 1_
I ca.n give you .. VfrJ good example. Twenty yean ago I was constructing .. veJ'Y big
dam near Jgatpuri. I worked out the question of 008t, using mechanical aid. I found
that the only two things I ooold afford to buy mech-nic.uy were three portable enginu,
pans for mixing mort6r, and Bome light railway trockB which were pushed by mBnnaI
18bou!'~ I could not even aft'ord to buy light tractors toO pull the truoka. Contractors
came outfromEngla.nd toinspeot that work., and they.aid itseemeda very~n&lY
thing that I could not do the work by mechanical means. I pointed out that mechaniea.!
means oould DOt poaaibly oompetewith the then wa~ -of labour. When this scheme was
started we worked out the question. and, based on rates that were. then being
paid in Sind. we found that mechanical escavatol'S won banda down. The com·
parison then-five yea.rs ~o-W8B very much more in favour of mecha.nieal exaavators
than it is to~a.y, because by bringing in meohallica1 excavators we reduced the cost of
hand laboar.
A,.131. Relating to workmen'. COD.iperusatioo, have you any meorda with l'egard to
the contr&ctors paying oompellB&tiGll ?-My Superintending ~eers have. There are
severalC&S8Imwhioh higoontraotul8have oome up and. asked' What shall I pay the
man!n Theamallereontractor says '''1 atD. sorry loannot do anythlng u. We have had
two or three C8889 where they bave Ilotually paid compensation. Very few cases so fa.r
ha.ve occnrred in the contract labour, beeMtae itis not the most difficult form of labour.
The ~eroD. part of our work is done by departmental labour.
A-13!. But for another pnrpose you are proposing to increase the smallcontractors 88
against the .large contracton !-Yea. I am giving you that not for any outside reuona
but purely from the economio point ol: view, which muat control my aotiOD8 &8
aafeguanling the publio pune.
A·l33. Do you ..nUder that the WorJ......n·. Breacb <>f Contract Act ohould not ha....
been repealed 1-1 would rather ha.ve seen it modified than :repealed. because it leads to
a battle of wita now, which iB not to the benefit of either party..
PM OM_: I have not hoard 01 any suggestion 01 ....."""_..
A.IM. Mr. f.JI.iJ/ : Can you tell me what is being done to train labour on yoor
acheme1-Ye8. On a 80heme of thi& sort we have never been able to get au1Iicient
skilled labour to meet our requirements. Therefore we have had to train it in every
shape and form from purely raw materiaL We have gradually trained the people up
step bystep. If it is within their m&arns to learn, we have tried to teach them wherever
we ha.ve had to do depmmenta1 worb.. Thia work has been a great technical sehoo}~
and wa6 "'....ked on by Sir John Simon.
A.ISO. Iaitprovingprofitabl. f-Itis profitable to lIS in th..t way_ teach the
people the methodl! we want them to follow, and it givea them & very much higher market
value when they leave tho worke.
A-l36. Are you. in fa.VODr of its expansion ?-Yes. If we can take the opportunitj
oftraining people on WOl'kt~it is better than trying to stan small schoola and U ha.lf-
baked tJ institutiona.
(At fAil poi"', the witNH". oral~ tt1Uadjouf'fU!d. ,""illite Commiuicm'4I
IIioit to S..tho".)
Mr. T. S. DOWNIE, O.B.E., Chairman, and Mr. JAMSHED
H. R. MEHTA; Vice-Chairman, Karachi Port Trull'.
A-13.7. TM CAa.il"ftJQft: Mr. Downie, may I first upreasmy own sympathy with you and.
you Trust at the preaent conditicn of your export trade, Bnd at the eerioU8 diminuti(.n
wbiohyou b&vel'ecentlyesperienced; andals.oexpre8sthe hope thatitis only a temporary
~reuion and th&t it may recover to something like its JJlll.ximnm period. It oerta.inly
18aeeriOUll thing youhavetoface-afall hom 2,070,000 tons 00 600.000h:m.8inaperiod
~ four yean. You have put before UII a very interesting statement covering the condi-
tions -of employment within your- aphere, and alEo the housing. aa fM &B it goes, of your
employees.. We had the pIeaaure of inspecting some of the workers' houses yeaterday_
In your memorandum you tell ... that the question of induoing empoyera of labour t<>
&C(luire sitae on which to build quirten for' their 'Workmen has been ta.keD up, and that
negotiations a.re on hand toW&l'da that end. Would you my what you mean by
U negoti&tiona". and with whom t-We have approaohedemployenof I&bour, sucb aa
stevadmea and memben of in:nB who houae their labour in the village at Keamari. IUld
have i<>formod them that ,.. oonaicler that.t thia time they ohould build ho....1or their
0'IfD labour, and that the Port Trust have 10 far decided not to build any more hot,188&..

16. 12
We b&ve offered them sites beyond the village on -reclaimed land. which they may 80qtilie
4O(}D specified· terms. This has taken some OOIlBide~hle time because of the present
depreuion of trade, and the reply (If the stevedores. and employera Wal that they were
financially not in a position to erect honsea. and that the matter might stay for .. time
until the trade of the Port improved, so that people would then be financially in ..
position to acquire those sites and to build noh housel.· That is what is meant by
~. negotiations ".
A-13s.. You aay that U The Port Trust have under conaidera.tion the reoonatruction
of..la.rgenumber of the houaea which were built many yea.rs ago and propoaein due course
totakethia Wouin hand It. Is thatneceuarily to wait for an improvement in trade 1-
Yes, sir. The question was gone into and it was felt that a better olasa of h01l8e8. or a
dU!erentolaas,should be built to meet modernrequirements. The prcposal W&8 to totally
rebuild" and the queation was gone into and reported on by the Engineer that housea
could he reconstructed at a very much less coat and it was decided. in the fira-t inatance~
to put up one or two model hOnse8. which have been put u~ and to subsequently 8tart
..building programmeof reconstructionarlending' over a number of yea.ra.. For financial
reaooDll also that baa not been puohed forward.
A-189. Referring to Workmen'8 Compensation you tell us that your Trust does not
confine itlJelf to its legal obligations Under the Aot but that you do grant compensation
on thelines of the Actto al1youremployeea who may heinjnred or killedin the execution
of their duty ?-That is oorrect. The number of employees under the Workmen~B
Compensation Actis very limited. But all employees who are injured or killed get the
same compensation 88 if they were under the Work.m&n·s Compensation Act.
A·l40. I take it you. would not object to other employers doing what you de to your
own men. thatia to sa.y, extendiDg the provisions of the Act to cover every clasa or
employeea I-No. .
A-l41. With regard to periods of payment of wages, have yon eomidered the possi-
bility of paying Doll your men at shorter intervala than appe&rs t.o be the oQltom, namely,
the monthly Bystem ?-We had a -representation from Government, lIir, two er three
ye&l'8 ago and we went into the :matter and improved it by aceeleratiog paymenta. In
cues where men were being paid once in ten days we probably reduced it to seven dayt:.
People who weN paid monthly preferred to be paid so; they did not want to be- paid
weekly~ We'had no complaint about the period of paymen~ . The only f:ompJa;nt. we
had was tha.t the payment should be made quicker, that is soon alter the end of eACh
month'or week as the case might be. ,-
A.-loti. Do you not think thA-t they woald prefer a- shorter period of payme-nt-inatead
of monthly pa.yment 1-1 do not know~ As far as I can me.ke ont they do aU thRir pay.
menta in monthly instalments and they seem to prefer it. We had no cQtnP}&,hi1.s that
they would like it paid [onnightly or weekly. Probably Mr. Mehta may be in ., position
to lI&y~ (Mr. Jamshed N. R. Mehta): My pe:rtlonal opinion is that they 'Would prefer
weekly payment.
A-l43. Mr. DOW'nie~ oan you tell UB whetherit would be ~ult for you tomake weekly
pa.ymenta ?-(Mr. Downie): None whatever. .
A·I44- Itoould be done ,-Yeo.
A·[45. And presumably to that extent it would relieve the reoourse of the w01'kmen
to outaide ~en()ie& to obtain money for expencrfture during the pwiod 1-1 doubt that..
My opinion 18 tbat they would proba.bly spend the money a.nd not disoharge their obli-
gations. At the end of 6&eh month" as fM' 68 I am able to asoertain, the man is surrounded
by hia'oreditoft who know that he haa got money and 80 they get it from him. If he
is paid fo-rtnightly or weekly I am afraid he might use it for other pUl'pOle8 and not pay
hit debts. That is my own,impresaion. ":",
A-U6. I think it would e our duty to conaide-I' that question '-Mr# Mehta is in a
batter pOlition to speak on this subjeot and I quite agree with what be says. (Mr.. ,Jam-
tied N. R. Hohta): There is a remedy. It the- Port Trust st.&dlll a co.operative -credit
society for them the remedy wonld be very sUilple. I quite see 'Mr. Downie's point, but
it is not im~ossible to cheok it~ Theee people could be got out of their debt by starting
" oo..operatu1e credit lIooiety of the Port Trust for the workers. The experiment can
be tried and enoouraged by a body like the Port Trust.
A.I4-7. You think th..t the two things ought to go togethOl'-6 shOrter period of
payment oombined with the eat&bliahment of ,. utiafaotory eo.operative credit
_yo_t-Yeo. . .
A~l48. Would that no-t need in ita inoeptiou lome personnel officer who would take
.aspecialintereat to aee thatitdidauooeed7-1 am infa..,our of baring a peraonnel offieer;
I think that is neoesaary. If he euoouragea it it. it bound to be a 8UOOOI8.

17. 13
A.149. You suggest that tho l'o.-;,Truat is .. partioularly "'vourabl. body for trying.
such an u:periment '-Very fa.vcurable.
A·l50. MiN Power : I see that you mention that in the case: of 1ine! and un'Olaimed
'Wages these are credited to the Port Trust. Do you think it will be pOSBible to ma.ke'
'UG of euoh aums iDaome form. of weUarework t-(1tr. Do:wnie): They are very trilling...
I think the- fines oome to about Rs. 100 • year. They are not very substantial.
A-Un. What about the unclaimed w&geI t Are they not. substantial sum f-Only
oooaaionaUy they are unclaimed. They Me not large. Tbe amounts are trifl:ing. In fac.
they are.o iri6i.ng thatwe had no necessity to oonsider what toO do with these amounts.
Tht:' fines are very sma.U and the wages are not claimed only oocwonally; it may be
.. Bum of Rs• .200. or SOOt
A-152. Do the unclaimed wages arise from a man having to return to .hiB village-
hurriedly and hoing """bleto olaim biB pay prior to tha pay day t-Thoy disappear.
they go on leave and never e~e back.
A.Iss. Without having put in any claim 1'-No. We treat it as- unolaimed:
money.
A.IM.. What is the interva.l for the workers on the night shifts:in the shipping?-
According to hours. There ia no interva1. They work from '1~30 p.m. to 6-30 a.m.
In actual practice the men take t.urn.s. going off for a few spells. They cannot 'Wot'k.
right through without a 'Meat s.nd. they arrange that amongst themselves.
A~l50. Whatis the iJl,terval they actually take under that arrangementf-Itismerely
& matter of &rrangement with the headman; there ia no specifio time laid down. ,
A.I56. In your memorandum you refer to the question of the reduction of hours of
the workers having been postponed pending certain improvements. I am afr&id I do-
not quite follow what the improvements are which would aftect this question from the
workers' point of view T-It ia rather a difficult matter. When the question waa brought
np a large portion of the traders of ths pl&ee were- against reduction in h01l1'L They
thought that the time was ioopperi'IIDe for doing so and felt. as far .. r can remember..
that when we got the new conditions ofworking which we are likely to establish in the
West Wh&rf~ that is the new part of the harbour. they would be in a better poaition to.
see what the result of r-educing the hoUJ'B would be tb&n what they were at that parti~
oular time.
A.IS7. h there likely to be a eoDBidera.ble interval before there are any improve-
ments '-We hope to open the first of the West Wba-rf piers by this time next year. and
to work undel' ditierent conditiO-DB from those in the past. Itis rather a technical thing,
but I can explain to you if you 90' desire. _
A-ISS. Yon think it will reaultinthe possibilityofbeing a.ble toaItertheshift times !-
I ca.nnot 8ay. The Port Trwst ha.d put it forward to the Va.rio-UB oha.tnbe1'8, stevedores.
and othert concerned and asked them for their opinion on the ma.tter of reduction of
houn. The Indian Chambers favoured reduction, but the Karaohi Chamber of Com-:-
merce and the stevedores who Me moatly the employers of the labour OO1loe:rned were-
very much againat it and were unable to see any necessity fol' reduction and the Board
aooepted ~&t view and postponed ~urther consideration of the matter.
A·l59. I understand that you are very alack jut now r-Very slack indeed.
A·lOO. Then this should be :mther an opportune time to try the experiment in the-
reduotion of hOllI'S, might it not '-No, th:iJ ia just the time when they want to work
more: people would like to 'Work fol' 24 hours if they (lould get it. There will be nO<
trouble about the working hours now. When we are busy and when trade is oa.uied
on at a preaaure. ill the time to reduce the working hours.
A-16I. My point is tha.t if you ate sIaek now you will be employing more people in
the bulk on shorter shifts T-That dependB upon the number of dayS the ship 8taye~
Forwtanoe, in buy timea we keep it only for three days. If there is nopartioularhurry
~ the ship stays for eight days~ the number oI men employed is natoially leu. Thai
ia the trouble. It is work that. we want here..
A.i62. Referringto yourh-owring8oheme, youstatetha.t there haahad to be anmcre&&&
Inthe rents l&tely.. ltakeitthllta.t the la.me time there has also been a deorease in
wages f-It is not a deotea.se in wages, but .. deoaase in work. We were having a )OBS of
about Ra. 30,000 per annum for several years. and a year or two ago it W68 decided
tha.t we must do something to get some more money, and the:rente were put up about
10 per oent., that is, just. about the standard rate under the Rent Act. .
A·I63. Baathere been an appreciable uodua of peoplefrom yoW' own housingaahemee.
.mce the inorease of rente t-No. The only thing I know ia that a lot of people said that.

18. 'f'a.ther tha.n p.y this rent they would go ba.ck to their mud huts; a.nd a certain number
<of them have gone and erected huts on land whioh we are not quite sure belongs to the
mDDicjpality or to the Port Xruato .
A-1M. More people would be taken in in order to iesaen to the renter the -coat of the
inoreued rent I-Very posaibly they would take in more lodgera~
A·165. You do not in any way control the condition of workers who a.re contracted for
'through the oontractol"l you employ t-No.
• A·ISe. Would there be any pOS9ibility of putt~ into the oontrMlt whioh you. make
with the contractors for~. the necessityfor theu" complyiug with certain legislation
affooting. for in.stance. the use of children on tha.t work and the age At which children
'Shall at&rt on that work '-That iI; rather outside our province. Moetly coaling ia
.eione in the !Stream and 1 do not know whether lega.lly we have any authority over this.
In the ease of the veasela on the wharfs we have laid down OODditiona; no ODe under 15
is employed in Port Trust works. •
,A.167. Rave you Imy method of inspection to see that that is o.&rried out f-The staff
inspect it every day; if they see a youth under 15 the stevedore will be told to take him
away.
A~l6S. Is it not necessa.ry tha.t the plinth of tbe houses for workers should be at least
three feet from the ground '-1 tbink it would be ., gre&t improvement, but I do not
think it is D.eCe88801J'. .
A~I69. Should not there be aome provision for recreation of workers t-I wmtId be
very glad to Bee that they have recreation. But if I understand that you wish the Port
'Trust to provide the recre&tio~ I do not agree with that.
A-I70. ~ aAGman. Loll : Why not ?-It is not my duty to provide recreation for
the workers_ They can :manage their own recreation &8 other people do. That ia my
reason.
A~l71. You sometimes provide free houses for them. It is not your duty to provide
:free recreation I-Excuse ~ we provide free h0U8e8 for !Specific jobs" to people who it ia
neCl88Ht'Y should live neal' their work. For other people we do not provide free houses.
They ha.ve to pay rent. Free housing is pro~ for apeoi1ie purposes. But recreati<m
and work in my opinion are two tmtirelJr di1ferent matters..
A-172.. Mr. Birla : Hr. Downie.you refer to the depression in the export trade.. Ia it
peculiarto theexporttrade or to the import trade.. well !-Entirely to theuport trade.
The import trade is very good.
A-I73. Can you explain the reason why particula;rly the export trade ha.s been
a.ffected t-Owing to the reuOIl& which have Jed. to wheat not being -exported..
A-174. What are your chief items of export !-Wheat and seeds.
A·176. And Cotton !-Cotton llas now become the ohief export. For 80Me tiJI:Mt
whee.t &nd seeds predominated.. Now wheat &lld seeds h&ve gone do~ udootton
-pre iominatea. -
A·l76. Ca.n you tell me out of the 2() lakhe of tonI of export what is the quantity of
wheat and grain that is exported 1-Putting it l'oughly, 100.000 ton& of other commodi-
ties &ud the b&la.noe w:heat and seed&. For instanee~ iu 1924-25 we exported 1,200,000
tons of wheat alone, and previOUl to the war Bne and a. quarter miUionhas been esported
in a year.
A.I77. So itia on aooount of the faUin the export-otwha&t and seeds that your trade
baa fallen '-Wheat and seeds a.re the ptincipal itama whioh have gone down. .
A-I7&. Can you esplain thereaeonfwthill'fdH: t r. it dne to f.mine t-I GarulOt say.
I have been told that tne reason of the wheat upoM, going down is that people in India
are oo-nauming more wheat than they W!led to do; &leo that the pricea of Indian wheat
will not oompare with the prices of Auatr&lian. Canadian or Argentine wheat, and thoy
Gannet get a market for it..
A.179. It is not entire1ydue to anyshortal,:od! oropo f-No, it ie infaotdue wholl7
1;0 intern&l oonsumptioD.
A.lSO. You _ ..t that the intemal oonanmption baa inoreaoed f-I und..._
it hal.
A.ISI. Do yoo think it has anything to do with the appreciation of the woe of the
rupee _'-I am not prepared to gift an opinion.. .
A.182. Yoo think that the appreciation of tha "'poe w •• has hit the Punjah
agrioulturiBtI t Is that Y"l' suggestion t-I am not iD. a- position to give an opinion
o(Jn thia matter.

19. 15
A-l83. You tell us about the housing oonditionsand the- hesitation.of the oooupiers to
pay tho lent.. Could you tell us the appro:rimate ooat of COD8truoting a. house, say 10'
by 10'.in Karaohi 7--;We hAve gotsmallhouses which inolude two rooms &nd .. venmdah.
A.IM.. What is the &rea 1-1 can give you the area of the houses. The sma.ll hOU8e8
~nsist of .. verandah l4' X 6'~ ODe MOm 14' x lO'~ another 5' X 6' and another
l~# x 10"4 The value of that was originally Rs. 450 .. house.. That W68 many
years ago.
A-l85. Do you think the cost has increUed considerably!-We have spent a very
large amount on repairs.
A-l86. Wh&t I am trying to get at is whether the cost of coustrnotion here i8 in a.ny
va.y higher than in Bombay or Calcutta !-The cost of building in Karacm u very
much cheaper than in Bombay or- Calcut.t&.
A-187. Then what is the reason of the heaitation of your occupiers to pay a rent of
Rs. 3 or RB. 4; it is not a.veryltigh rent for rooms of thataize '-1 cannot ten what the
reason ill. I suppose they have not tlle money.
A-ISS. Money is spent on health and eciuce.tion. Do you oonfine your aotivities to
thalabour alone. ordo you spend money for your higherstaff, on theeducation and health
.of your olerioal &taft t-We ma.intain two medioal officers. who are confined to peGPle
who are generally getting lees than Re. 300. On the Manora side we have a medica-l
.officer ....ho attenda to every one.. On the Manore side we also provide a aohool for Port
'Tl't18t children. On the Ka.raahi aide there is a large number of m1DlicipsJ 8()hools~ both
in Keamari apd Karachi.. To the Port Trust employees who send their ohildren to
Xa.re.chi we pay the tram hire.
A-ISS. "''hat I wanted to knowwaa whetheryou maintain these schoolsfor the benefit
of the labouring claases 01' for the clerical &taft '-We maintain only one school, that
is a.t Manor&, and that:is for aU the PortTrust employees who would like to send their
-ohildren to it.. ..
A-loo. HOW' many boys attend that Behool !-About 35.
A.191. Do you think that is a quite satisfactory condition pf &ff&irs t-WeD, that
is all that there are about the place. The main body of Port. Trnet employeeslivein
.K.a.t'&Chi, and there they obte.in the benefits of the municipal BChools, a large number of
which are to be found.in Keams.ri and Karachi
A-192. Mr. 1Iehtajust now suggested the advisability of starting a oo-operative
system '-1 have not oonsidered the question. I should like to oonsider the matter.
A-IDa. Do you come acJ'OU 0&888 of swindling by your OOl1tractors t-No. I am not
awa.re of any such cues. I ha.ve not come across any oase of swindling..
A~l9&. Do you think the contractors deal fairly with the labourers t-I am not in ..
poSition to say.
A.l95. Ca.n you give us the margin ofpront which the contractor makes;_ the r&~s
you pay to the eontractor~ and the rate. that the contractors p.y to' the work-people I-
I cannot tell you.
A.l96. Diwan- CMmGn Loll: Would you make the enquiry and let US know !-I have
not the means of Dnding it out.
A·IM. Mr. Birl.. , I UDderstand that you h&ve been subeoriblng to th& Red Crou
Aaeociation. Do you think they maintain a.ny flail for the bene6t of the Indian
'Women t-1 underata.nd they maintain qualified nurses at Keama.ri. 'who instruct the
'Women.. We subscribe and they do the work..
A-lDS. You:will perhllp8 agreewith me that the qualifted nurses.unleaathey ere Indians.
are not very easily a.eoeseible to the working classes, and therefore I wanted to know
whetheryou have. made any oondition that the Red Cros& Society. on account of the
subsoription whioh they receive-from you. should maintain more Indian ooi4. for the
benefit of the Indian workiug olMleS t-We ha.ve made no oonditiOD at aU. Wemerely
-subscribe. and leave the Red Crou to do their own work. .
A-l99. Do they maintain, or not. an Indim dGi I-I oould not teD you.
A.200. Mr. CIo.. , What iB the prooed_ :'With .....ro to the reporting of
.accident. t-All Beriou. aeoidenta are l'8port&d to the Collector of Karachi and to the
polioe immedia.tely and. ·of oomee, to myself. It is left for the CGlleotor of Karachi or
the po1ioe to take any action that is neeeuary iD the ma.tter.
A·BOI. Who oonduotl the innatigation of the aooidente '-That is left for the police
'Working under the Diatriet Magiatrate, the Collector of KaraahL .

20. 16
A-202. Are there any technical men oone8ponding to the Ispeetor of fsetories
with technical experienoe of maohinery and accidents to conduct in.~a.tione into-
aooidents !-Ido Dot lmo1r. W. haDd the matter entirely over tp tho police.
A-200. I should like to ask you one qUMtion arising out of:Mr. Ha.r:riaon evidence to.
which you have listened. We got the imp-reeaion yeeterday that there Wail not perhaps
68 muoh of unemployment as of under-employment in Karachi. Large number of men
clamoured that they could not get sufficient work in Kar.ahi. Is that the case !_
UDdoobtedly••
A·204. Mr. HarrisOD teDs ... that h. caDDO' get a full supply of labour &ll through the
year and that he finds it very difficult to progrea with hi! work ~ally at special
86Ilo8onB. Will these men here be willing to go to S1lkkur for employment if they get
a. chance t-1 should be very doubtful.bout the cl&a8 of men you 86.W yesterday. Most
of them are trained dock workers with the exception of probably wo or three experienced
haads who might get hotter w_at the Suklrur I1.....age. They _Ily stick to.
Karachi or go to their own homea~ _ -
A-205~ The unskilled workers we ••W~ Mr. Harrison sa.y8~ are perfectly capable of being
employed at Sukkur 'P-You cannot call them unskilled because the dock labourer is a.
skilled man in his 0WIl particwarway. We wa.nt very good men for-that clasa of work.
An ordinary man is no use. These men work hel'&foryeaI'8 and then probably go home-
for a year or two and come back. Employment as dock labourer is limited to men with
a certain amount of skill. There are of course others wbo do a certain amount of skilled
work here. Dealing with sugar. for instance, we use the Me¥.r&ni labour which is bigger
inatruetureandcando the work. Withregard to imports. men from the Punjab are U1!led
because tbey are bigger. For the ordinary work of pack carrying. eooliea are employed..
A~200. There is no coneidera.ble amount of unskilled labour unemployed in
Karachi t By the word., C unskilled • I refer to the labourer with no particulardegree of
aptitude in anything 1-There m1l8t be a good deal of un&mployment owing to the
trade depressiOD. For inatlmce* WI are not doing any work on the weat wharf..
We might have a thou.stmd men doing odd jobs there. They are Dot being
employed now.
A-207. The point I"I"eally want to get at is this. Ia it a caae of the un~ of
the labourer to go to Sukkur; oJ'is it a case of the ignorance of the 'Workeras to- the pIKe'
wherework can be got 1-1am not in a position to answer that. CUr. Mehta.) : I can .ay..
,Bir. that it iJ due to the ignorance of thelabourem. If they weN t-old th..t there is work
obtainable atSIlkku:aod that they would get so much wages they would willingly ge.
A-208. Sir IbralJim Ralimloola.: In your memomndum dealing wit.h so hOUsing condi-
tiona" you my that the Port. Trust have oonstructed 800 hO'USe8 for ihe MOOlllDlodatioa
of the labourers at Keamari. Thia accommodation u. not for the entire labour force
of the Port Trust. It is only for a Umitednmnber1-Yee.. Whatha.ppene about the
othera is this. Many of our men like others pmer to live- in Karachi and they go and
live in Karachi. Consequently these houses beeatne empty and in Cftl'8e of time
they have beenfilled up by outsiders as well sa Port Trust employeea. Out of about
800 hoo'.' oDly about 269 are really occupied by Port Tr1I8t employees.
A·20D. And the balance is occupied by non·Port Trust employees t-Not conneetec!
with work of the Port Trust. For inatance. stevedorea' labour prob&bly live in it. The-
oil company's1abour lin in it.
A4210. In some way connected with the port !--Connected with the work of the port"
but not .m...tiy c_ted with the Port Trust.
A-211. In the matter of charging Tents do you. make any distiinction between teo.anta
who aN in Port Trust tervioe and those ~o are not f-We make no distinction.. ,,"'e
have a number of hon"'. in the village. We give freequarterafor OU!'sta«, bllt the others.
are on the same baaia whether they are Port Trut employees or outBidem. .
A.212. With regard to the question of reDt. yoo ...y Ibat,the policy of ths Port Tr1I8t
is to levy minimum ratea fOt' theBe hOUdea. What do you maim by minimum ratel !-.
Suoh rata that we can oharge without l(Mjng money. M I havo aheady laid we 108&
nearly ~. 30,000. a year on the average$ 80 hat all the rents are not really remunerative-
yet.
A-liS. How do you make out that 1088 f Do you charge any intereat on the eoat of
construotion. and if so. at what rate !-Yea~ we obarge an intere8t a.t 6 per oent. on the
coat of construction and include depreciation also. We do not include the land value..
Weinolude the coat 01 the supply of water, the amount of taxes that we haTe to pay ~
the Municipality aod all thia works out to aboot Ro. 20,000 1... eve<y year.
A.213a. What ill t~e rate of int.ereet you oharge f--sh: per cent.

21. 17
A-214. What is lib. total amount you hovo l,P"nt 1-1 hove'_ gO~ lib. figures ....;, >at
preeent. .
A~215. If this loss ia e1imin&ted from the caJ.cola.tio~ by how much would the rate of
interest on the cost of construotion be reduoed !-We have not worked that out..
A.216. I want to find out whether~ inatead of working out at 6: per oent., you work~
out at " per cent.. or 5 per cent.~ there would be no loss on the capital invested in
oollStrnotion '-1 h.a.ve got here the capital60St on the average including depreciation
&00 interest and if we omitted it from our caloulations we would be losing about
&8.10,000. .
A-217. Wha.t is he e.mount of intel'ea-t dehl~ now !-Re.. DJOOO to 30,000•.
A-218. Is that your total I... !-No, it is Ro. 20,000 to 30,000.
A.219. If your loss is &. 2()~OOO before and it you elimi.ua.te it now. you 'Would still
get Rs. 10,000; but if your loss was Rs. 30~OOO you would get no return on the capital
invested. You are charging rents from Ra. 6 to Re. 9-8·0. On what basis a.re thes&
rents fi:!:ed f-A st&tement is worked out on the basis of the original cost, the present
renteJ. val~ the "lue of the land and so on. It has all been worked out before.
A-220. How do these rents compare with those of similar accommodation in other
parts of Karachi 'I-They are a gift; they a.re no rentB at all. For similar houses.
eitua.ted in K.a.nt.chi we can get three times the rent;,
A-221. Is: that the re&8On why bhere issO' muchover-crowding f-l do not know whether
th&t is the reason. People willtake in other people and we C&m1ot keep them out. The
accommodation provided in each house consists of three rooms and you would not get
one room in Karachi fol' the same rent. We think it is & mistake to have the rents so
low.
A·222. 11 that not .. liability OD Iihe funds of Iihe Port Trust t-Y.., on tha fonda of
the Port Trust. •
A.223. Is tho Port Trust satisfied thet it is .. legitimate liability on libeir part to let
those houses at low rents to people who a.re not in the employ of the Port- Trust t-We-
oaimot get them ~
A-224. Ha.ve the Port Trost considered that aspect of the question ?-The matter
Ima been disousaed on vari~ns oooaaiona and u I said before, they came to the conclusion
that they would build no moI'e houses but get the employers of la.botir to build
their own houses a.nd give them Bites for the purpose.. Beca.nse th&y saw that it was
uneconomic.
A-225. How do you explain the fact that men in P()J't Trustservioe entitled to accom-
modation which they oonld ~ at one-third of the rente obtaining in Karachi do not.
occupy it but allow othera to do so t-1 am talking of the situation about .. number of
yeara ago. At present the whole of the aooommoda.tion is not occupied by Port Trust
labourers. Only a.bout 200 hOU8e8 are occupied by them. Whenever a houae becomes.
vacant. whioh is very seldom the eaae, we allot it to a Port Trust emp1oyee~ This is
the rule that we. have been following 101' 80me years past. It is going to take_ many
years bofore the- whole a.ooommodation is oooupied by the Fort Trust employees.
A:226. These houses have been built for the benefit of the 'Port Trust employeeS at
Port Trust _%pOns.. 1-1 C&!Ulot ..y they were built .peo;..uy for Port Trust
employ....
A-227. Then ";hat justification ia there for your charging -only one~third rent com-
pared with wh&t similar accommodation fetches in Karachi t-The difficulty :is this.
The rente were fixed some twenty 01' th-ir9' yean ago and we have not inoreaaed them.
in the way the other landlordsin the city have done.. Thatis one reason why the- rents
are 80 l o w . . .
A-228. Di1DGn Chaman Loll: Mr. Downie, was .. representation ~e by the tally
clerks to introduce a shift system for their staff t-YM-.
A·229. W.. tha matter coneidsrod by your Board t-Yea.
- A·230. Did the Board unanimously 'l'Eloommend a. reduction in hours originally 1-
No, the Board referred the- ma.tter to- the various Chambers of Commerce and
. mployem qf labour for .opinion. '
A-23l. Did they at ~y time unanimously reco:inmend reduction in hours as a.
body '-1am speaking from memory and to tbe beat of my recollection no deciai(ln was.
come to. The mat~r WaB referred. M I 8&id, to the varioua Chamben of Commerce and.
employera of labour in Karachi for opinion.
IlO y 16-2

22. A-232. Is it a fact tb&t the European Chamber of Commerce at tirat viewed the
propoaal favourably 1-1 do not think it is correct to ea.;y that.
A-233. Can you, Mr. Mehta.. throw any light OD the matte t-l was not in tbe Port
Trust at th&t time. I came iD afterwards;.
PM OAaSrmt.ui: I think, Mr. Mehta. has madeaome reference to itin his evidence and
we sh&ll examine him in the afternoon.
A·234. Diwan Chaman Loll :-I take it that you are not in a poiIition to give me
detailed information a.bout it.-!-I think what I ga.ve is: the correct information.
A-2M. My information is that the Board viewed the proposal favourably.-I am
only talking on the resolutioDs passed by the Board. I do not know what happened
at informa.l meetings of the Boord. The resolution only. ea.ye tha.t the matter was
referred to the va.rWL6 Chambers for opinion.
A-S36. Am I right in taking it that the oppOIJition to thie came from Messl'& For~
Forbes, Campbell and Co.?-Tbe, opposition to it(l~ from the Chamber 01 Commerce-
.and from. the stevedores of the port; -
A-237_ The Indian Chambers 1fuanimously agreed !-Yos, they ag....d.
A-238. Is it a fa.ct that the working hoUl'S in Bombay in the Port Trust are ahorter
than .the working hours in Karooru. l-It is· e. fact. _
A-239. How does the efficiency of the Bombay worker compal'C with the Karachi
wo~ker in regMd to work f-Very small &l1d very poor comparatively.
A-240. Have you got a.ny ata.tiatica which can show that 1-No detailed stamties;
-only my knowledge of the work done in both pl&cee:.
A-24L Is that your opinion !-My opinion based on the knowledge of the working
in bot·h porta. We work far better in this. port.
A~242. But you have no statistics !-No•
• A-243. Whatis the constitution-of the Boards ?-Four membeTff ~ appointed by the
Ka.rachiChambersofCommerce.two by the Buye1'8 and Shippers' A880ciatioI4 foUl' by .
Government.inciudingonerepreaentative of theN. W. Rly. and one of the military
Department. one by the .Kara.ehi municipa.lity and two by the Karachi Indie,n Jl.lereh8ntB
Association. .
A.244.. Is there any representative of labour !-There :is a nominated member•
.1.245. Has there been a great deal of agitation on the -part of the worke.J'8 or their
representatives demanding representa.tion of labour OIl a bett-er seale !-1 have b.e&rd
that such is the case. ~
A.246. You yourself pel'Bonaily would not be aversll', to seeing ~, properly
represented on the Board !-My personal opinion is. that one la-bour r6preaentative 'is
.quite suffioient for the size of this place. '~
. A.247. Do you agreewith the methOd of putting the labour representative on the Board
by nomination l-As far as I know it b&S worked sa.tisfa.-c.rorily;: in othe:r words. I lItgree
with it.
A.24S. Who is tb& representative of labour '--.Be is a gentleman called Mr. Merayah
Khan. . . . . * •
A.M9. Is he ()onneated in.any way with labour f-Not that I know of.
A-200. Yon a.re aware tha.t the Port Trust La-bour Union and other labour arga--
ntza.tiona in KArachi have looked upon this nominati~ unfavounbly 1-1 have unde~
-stood that. f -
A-25l. You .aid tha.t the rents Of these q"'vters at Keaman which are owned by tbe
POrfTmst were inereasqd; oan yon give me til. .venge of the m()re&Se d.uring the lut
few ye&r8 ?-Yes, B.a. 4.nouses were increased to Rs. o.
A~252. Iwillputittoyou a.nd perhaps you might corW). me as r go a.long. The
origiiial rent of tho small houses. W&8 Ra. !-12·0 sewral ye~ ago ?-About 40 or 00
yeare ago. I
A.253. Did you have any houses 50 ye&1'S ago l-Yes, a lot of houses..
A-2M.. When was the rent Ra. la12.0 1-1 have not got that on my liBt; that ia a.
very remote time.. .
A-2~' Which is the lowest you have got '-The lowest rent that I have got here is
RI. ~2-O for the amallest house. _
A-206_ What d.te 'Was th&t I-That goes back • good many yearo 10 or 15yo..._
I have Dot got an~g before that.

23. A-25'T. h that .. oman h..... !-Th. very om.n..t h _ _Re. 4-2-0.
A~258~ And what is it paying now t~Ra. 0.. That was in existence I should. say
6hout 1900. Re. 4-2.0. .
A~259. When was the last increase in the rent l-About a y~r ago.
A-200. Was there any inorease in.wages at tha.t tim&'t-No.
A,·261. _We will tab the mat hOU8e& of Keamari; do you think they are fit for human
beings to live in7-We~ I quite.agree they are very unsightly. but their history is rather
peculiar. I preaumeyoure1'ertoth08&a.t.the end of the village; I tlrink you saw them;:
I was not there. We put tip about 10 liDes of huts daring the time we had plague here.
so that when pla.gue occurred at any house the families could be tn:med out &nd could
live in the mAt h01lfJe8 pending disi,nfeotion of their hOllSes. The plague died &wa.y but
the mat housea rem&inecL The question a.rose: shall we pull them down f As many
men came along to me and said: .. Sahib, we a.re very willing to take this hOllSe ~~.
I said : U Very well, you can aU ha:ve them at &s. 1-8..0 & month. n They were filled up.
and tbat is the reason of those h6nses. Since they have been buil~ about 6 lines have
been burned down &nd we ha.ve not erected a.ny more., It is quite likely those existing
will be bnrneddown in the eourse of the next few months and there will be no more
·erected.
A.262. Am I rightin S&ying tha.t the apaoein these mat huts is about 10 feet by .10
ieet t-l should say B). •
A-263. Am I correct in saying that tbe average prisoner in one of His Majesty'. prisons
gets a cell 10feet by IOfeet.aU to himself t-I am notiu & poeitionto say.
A-264. Is there any wage-fixing $&Chinery availahle for the purposes of the Port Trust
vorkers '1-No~ . .
A-265. Would you personally he averse to the1ixa.tionof wages through some minimum
'Wage-fixing .machinery_!-1 do not quite gather what you mean by thap.. .
A·.266. There is a proposal before the Gov.emment of India, as a reau1t of the
Intern&tiona.) Labour Conference last yea.r to set up minimum wage-fixing machinery ;
you would not be averse to tha.t t-No; we generally fall in with the views of G-overn·
&ent on these matten.
A-267. In regard to' these portera you IlY - in your written memorandum that
.n Suitable quarteR are provided by the Ka.rachi Port Trust t} 1-That is 80.
A-268.. Is it & fact that SODlS of your aooommoda.tion at'Keama.ri haa been condemned
by the Health Officer 1-1 am not aware of it.
A-269. Tha.t is &- fact. You do not consider tbose satisfactory 1-1 'am- not awa.re
<of !loy houses that have been condemned that have not been hrought to my notice. It
has not been represented to the Port Trust officially. ,
A-270. Yon are the head of the Department and I take it that if a se-rious matter like
this h~s not been reported. te you~ there mUBt be aomething wrong with the constitutiol1t
-I sa.y it i8 incorrect. It ha& not been brought to my notice &8 head of the PortTruaty
as it l!oould ha.v~ heen if there wa.s anything wrong, and therefore I e&nnot answer any
.queatwll8 on tha.t.
A·271. Then I will not punue the matter~ but from the informa.tion 1 have obt$ned
nom the Health-Officer himself,; it 18 8.()~' You do not consider tha.t tboae mat huts a.re
u.tiafa.ctory 1-0f course not.
A-272. Is it a. fact that many of your Port Trust workers are living at 'Lyari 1-
1 should think it is. yes.
A-273. And is it also the fact that they are-living in mat huts a.t Lyari 1-1 do not
know the conditions there.' .
A.274. Have you been theref-I have heen there. but I am not acquainted with the
-conditions there. .
A.275. A great deal of the accommodation is mat hut aooommodation 1-I think it ia,.'
A.276. Many of your workers are living there 'I-Very probably
A .2-77• Yon would not OOll8ider that aooommodation satisfactory ·'1-Until 1 see the
.a.c('ommodatjon~ I really could not .y. 1 want to know the re&8ODB why they are living
there; they ,may prefer to live there. •
A.278. You h&ve no officer of the Port Trust who isin oharge of the inspection of the
housing -accommodation of your- w&'kera t--O£ our own village, of our own Port Trust
ho~t outside.
A-279. Not outaide !-That is munieil'&i ~D_
1(0 Y 15-2a

24. 20-
A-2S0. Would it _ be desirable to have .......no in •charge ?-1 Dan_ go in and
Inspeet outeideho..... belonging to the municipality; my i.,;..uctJon only applice to tb
Port Trost. not tbe municipal arrang....nte. .
A-281. But if it is a fact that many of yOU!' workers are livingin mat huta of more or-
Jeu the tame. types as the mat huts to be found at Keamari. you would not consider that
aooommodation S$tisfactory !-No: certainly not.
A·282. Could you give me any idea as to the indebtedneaa of the workers of the Port
Trust t-l oould not.
A-2S3. Have you got • seame-afa ree:t houa& 1-There is a ~n~8 rest bOU&e; it is
not the property cf the Part Trna.t..
A-2M. Under the Port Trust Act are you not suppeaed to provide .. seamen's rest
house '-We are supposed to oontribute; we contributed. towards the cost of it and
oontributions were received locally. No one knowa who tbe buiJding belongs to.
The only thing is we keep it in repair out of Port ~ funds and maintain. iL"
A-285. Are any Inmana eligible ?-A11 grades and ....... are eligible.
A·285. Do Inman. make "'"' of that "",t ha... I-V...,. eelOOm.
A-28'1. Can you give me any reason,.by they do _ t-l beli.ve they prefer to live
in other placos.
A.2S8. Would it not be better to provide a rest house for Indiana !-That is & very
excellent idea. .
A·289. Isthere any provision in the PortTrust A.ctfor the.safety of the crewa.employt'1i
for loading and onioa<ling f-No, there is nothing opecifieeliy laid do.....
A·290. Would it not be desirable to amend the Act '-That is a matter whioh 'WM
recently put to Government; the Port Tru8t auggested that Government ahould appoint.
• Government inapector for tbat purpose; the reply from GovernmeJ;lt is that they do.
not propose to move in the matter at present.. '
A-291. I was not merely thinking of an inspector; would it not be better to inoor-
porate certain proviskne of the British Act with. regard to safety devices in eonnect.ioD
with the loader& 'I-We have protection for the It'OTkera on the wha.rl~ but on the tlhip.
as I aay~ that is outside our jurisdictlion, there would t-.,ve to be an Act ~ apeci-
fieally for that pnrpoee.
A.292. You are not a'Vet88 to that 'I-I am averse to the Port Trust having that.
reeponoibility; I am ..ot .,....... to tb Act but to the Port Trust being ead<lied with
tb reeponoibility. .
A-293.. Could you give me any idea of the number of children of workels of the Port
Trust who go to school in Keamari t-l could not.
A·2M. Is there a provident fund f-oryour workers !-For cert&iD cl&saea. yes. generally
f01' permanent :men drawing over Re. 40 a month.
• A-29S. Is it not neceasaty to have some provident fund &rl'&Ilgeme-nt for tholIe wh&
we drawing lese t-We hAve been'extending it in the last few monty; we NCeutly
broughtin tally olerks. whohadnot previously had it ; we brought in eranemen and ItOOD.
We have beengradually extending ity but 80 far it has not J'MCh...d the lower ranks yet.
A-296. It i. deeirable that it lIh.uld ,-fu.
A-!97. H&ve you anything to say at. to amendment of the Indian Merchant Shipping
Act regarding tbe method of employment 1'~1 have no rem.&J'b to offu#
A-298. You have mentioned that at on('- place there am 32 prlTiee at »MOra. Bow
many workera. men end women with thei. :"fe:apliea have you got. '_We haq, about
3OOmenemployediDt~~ loann~"oJihandthe tottll nomber of men and
W<)men.
A-2Il9. The men "'" living thare with their famUi.. !-No•.,,-UY. lIut in many
ca&e8 they are..
A-300. The arrangements a.re decidedly llldfatWa.ctory 1-1do Dot think 80. We have
*' medical officer who reports to me whether 6Verythlng is ea.tiafa.etory. 11 he put up •
....mm...dation for admtioo&l priTiee the"would nodoubOEdly be put in.
A-301. But. if there are 300 workers, many of them living with their families. and if
you take family 88 being a unit of fi"e. there will be nearJy ).000 people ?-The oonditiona
after &11 are difterent there.. I have had no complaint. about it..
A-302. Isit a fact that tha Port Trust Labour Union hae demanded betterfacilitioe I-
I have not heard of it.

25. 21
A-300. If it is brought to your notice I dAre 8&y it would be remedied t-AnythiDg lib
'that would be remedied at once if it w~ found ne~sary.
A..sM. You are in favour of depa.rtment.l employment I suppose t-To &. certaiD
~xtent. .
~ A-SOit And you would not be averse, I suppose, to ha.-ving eo la-hour bureau or labour
~ehange set up for the purpose of recruiting your workers !-I.ha-ve-no objeotion a.t all
if it would work welL . -
A-306."Would you ha.ve any objection to a. system of sioknesB insurance beiDg
adopted for- the permanent WOl'ke1'8 t-TaJrlng the Port Trust. I do not think it is
necessary. We have very llbera11ea.ve rules. .
. 'A-S07. Spealr:inggener&lly.you are not a.veraetO the principle of eiolrnesamsU!1lJlC8 f_
No, ~ far 8B the casual workers are concerne~ but not for the Port ~t employees.
A-300. _ they have been pro'rided aheady!-They are very well tr&&ted l
"they ha.ve medi(!aI attention free.
A·309~ But where weh facilities are not provided you. would not be ayerse to sieknNl
insurance l-No.
A-SIO. Are you in favour of extending the scope of the Workmen'. Compensation Act
in.Qrderto cover aU cla.sseamworke1'8 '-We have extended it 8.8 far as we are concerned.
I have no objection to ita general extension. .
.A.·.3J1. Mr. Cliff: Would you oblige the Commission by givmg us some pbotograpna
-of the. linea that. we sa.w yesterday! You have got four categories of hcUS~B in which.
employees live t-You would lik~ photographs of the Ma.nora. houses &nd the native
village hOWle8 'I I will give instructions for photographs to be f aken a.t onc~. It will
take a. few days. I can send them on to you. .
A.312. Will you be gOM. enough to furnish the Commission with &. copy of the
Constitution of the Pmt Trust and copies of the AnnUM Report for the Jast four years'
I want you to be olear that you ahouldinolude the one for 1924·25 t-Yes.
A-313_ Would you tell U8 the number of employees that ..... employed direotly by
the PortTrust 'I-There is one question I should like. to ask; a.nd tha.t is a.bout the
definition of the word 'labour'. What isla.bour 'I -Is a tally clerk who works for 12
hours. a. day like the artisan to be included or not 'f . •
PM 0"","""" : I think elerioallabour is UBU&!ly kept in the books separ.rely from
-other kinds. of la.bour; it is not manual labour 1-1 want tQ be sure of the definition
becauSe it might aifeet my &n8werB.
A·SI3&. Mr. Cliff: You have got.. I understand, establishments A and B and oert&iD
ether l&bourt-Yes.
A.SUb. I want to know the number of work~people employed direct by tho Port
Trust t-Ya-y I put in the clericaJ ataft or omit it ,
A-313e_ Include it if you pleaae 1-1,163 purmanent.
A·814.. How is that divided t-403 clerical; peoIlB. eAotc~8 and sweepms 308,
~eere and drivers 381; wolles 10; cranemen~ mUMAw.. tally olerbJ etc., e3.·
A.SU;. Thatis.tbe number &f employees of esta.blishment ~~ A » I-No. They are what
we call permanent employees. The permanent employees are split into U AU and t, B J'
which have different leave ndea. That is what conatitutes the dift"erence between U A ,.
and U B ". Our permanent .men ·are down at. 1,163 while our temporary men.
are 3.29a.
A~Sl6. To hve a. number of qneltiODBJ would you 1rln41y send us .. written memoran-
dum showing the difference in the matter- of privileges between U An and (l B" establilh··
menta !-Yea. We pave it aJ.l tahula.tedin. document a copy of which I can send on
toy....
A-317_ Would you tell us approximately the number of men who are emploYed by
the p&rt Trut on dock labour. anch M loading, unloading and coaling t-It iSlthout 2&
a &hip. Of oourae it depends on how many Ships are in..
, A-318. Am they eI>lployed direot I-No, through the stevedores.
A~319. Have you any approximate idea of the number of men who were engaged OJ!'"
this work in the year 192tr25 ... compared with. the ounelf.t yee.r'l-I can work it out
for you if you wa.nt to have that inform.ation..
A-32tJ_ Yeo, if I am not troubling you too muob I-We have the data, but it Ia not
ClGlleoted. •

26. 22.
:A-32l. Do you. exercise Any control over the labour employed by oontractol'8 !-None
whatever exoept in very 8mall detaila. For inatance. on the docks we insist that the
appliancea ahould be up to our prescribed standard. We examine them for the safety
of the workmen. . '
A·m. Have you got a. record of the number of women and children that aN employed
by contractor. f-None whatever~ ' / ~
A-323. Is it posSible to aaoertain that 1'-1 'Should have to write' to those people
and uk. them. -how many women and children they employ. Th..t is the only thing
I can do.
A..a24. You would simply have to take what they -say; there is no record t-No
....<nd. .
- A-325. Is there any record of rates of wa.ges paid to the dock labour 1-No, only in
their books. I pay the stevedore OD. a. fixed 0ae.i8 per ton and I have nothing to do with
~he wages paid to each. man. ' .
A-326. Rave the Pori Tmst considered the question of having & :register of dock
labour ?-Never.
A-3!7. You were uked a number of questions.. tothe finanee of your houaing acheme.
Sir Ibrahim Rahimtoola made & calculation .. to the neeeuary relation between coat
and rent.. I had & little diflicu1ty as to the arithmetic. Would you 8end a. .tatement
on the finanee of ~ hOUlling scheme 1-Tha.t is, you would like to know how -the rent
is arrived at.
A~328. Yee. the C&pitsJ 008t~ how the !'eDt is ealeu1ated and' what interest the, Port
Trust obtain. I believe you aaid that excluded the <l'ost of the land t--;Yes. The- diffi-
culty we have about this matteri. that when I said the rents did Dot pay, that was based
OD the usual method of oalcol&ting rent. Very frequently in years gone by in fixing
the rents we were guided by the rents which prevailed in previoWJ years. The rent was
merely fixed .t880y Re. 4 or O-purely an arbitrary figure and subsequently that ha.s
been increased. byannaa 8 or Re. 1. Very likely it wiD be neoenary to work out &.
oompariaon.
A·329. You will do your best tor UI '-Yes.
A..a30. Could we also uve oopiea of the =ondeuce whioh took pla.ce between
your authority and the Government '"til to the'provision of an inspeCtor !-
y . . . . . . . ,
A·331. Mr. Chaman Lan asked you lome questions about the movemen' for a red1li:'-
tion of h01lI'8 that has been diBc-ussed by the Port- Truat.. I have with me a oopy of the
memorandumsupplied by the Karachi PortTruatLabour 'Union. I do not know whethn-
you have ween a copy of it l-No.
A-332. Incidentally I may ten you that they pay you a great c-ompliment. but what.
I am concerned with is a question of fact with regard to the propoaal to reduce the hoUl1t
of working. 'In thie document they say H Unfortunately the representatives of 1»2
business the European Shipping Compani.ea led by Mr, .E. A. Pearson" M&n&ger 01
Messrs. Forbes, Forbes. Campbell and Co., Ltd.~ Agentl. Ellerman Linea, Limited, set
their :facea against the propoeal and wrecked even the small measure 01 reform ... That
implies that the Port Trust had decided upon some morro.. What I am -concemed
about in connection with this is that we ahool~e fnmished with 'the records of the Port
Trns-t. ifthere are any. withregard to the propoaat to reduce the hoursol work atKaracbi.
Are there recorda !-Yea. I might explain that .. Dote wae. put up to the Board with
reg&rd to working hours. This W8$ gone through by the Board -hut it. consideration
1f'&8 deferred pending & ieference to the varioua <Thambere and employel'8 of labour..
When the replies came back the question w.....in OOD8idered by the Board and_it was
decided not to ,0 on wit-, it. :fhls is the gist of the ll1&tt.er. ~ :recommendation is
not that of the Chairman of the"Board. Probably it ropreeenttl the views of the Trafiic
Manager and othera on the matter.
A~. I am oonoemed to Bee what was the reoommenti&tion and UpOD what that
reoo~mendation waa based t-Of course. thn.views of the 'l"raffie Manager or Q£ the
Chief Engineer are not neoeua-rily the views otthe Board,. and if you take the view of
the Traftic Manager it might be againat the niling of the Board. I do Dot want. to put
in. correspondence whiob JDight gi.ve .. wrong impreeaion as regards the Board·.
v!eWII.
A.S34..This Oommia!ri.on haa got to get at the facta•• t hope yon will not think we . .
troubling you too muoh in aaking for this infonna-tion t-No, certainly not..
A,.335. M~. Ahwl: You are in favour of e01U!ltru~tiDg • rest hoWle for Ia.diaa
namen t-I think it is • very excellent idea.
, .