Welcome to the Workology Podcast, a podcast for the disruptive workplace leader. Join host Jessica Miller-Merrell, founder of Workology.com, as she sits down and gets to the bottom of trends, tools and case studies for the business leader, HR and recruiting professional who is tired of the status quo. Now, here's Jessica with this episode of Workology.

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Episode 253: How Diversity and Inclusion
Can Drive Team Performance
Intro: [00:00:00.18] Welcome to the Workology Podcast, a podcast for the disruptive
workplace leader. Join host Jessica Miller-Merrell, founder of Workology.com, as she sits down and gets to
the bottom of trends, tools and case studies for the business leader, HR and recruiting professional who is
tired of the status quo. Now, here's Jessica with this episode of Workology.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:00:25.59] Welcome to the Workology podcast sponsored by Workology. Diversity
and inclusion are not new ideas in HR and corporate arena. But in recent months, the importance and
significance of D&I in the workplace has gotten leaders throughout corporate America to think about what
doing the right thing and our community looks like. For many of us in HR, this means we're not taking our
D&I initiatives to stakeholders. They're coming to us looking for answers and we must be ready to respond.
Today, I'm joined by Jim Rooney. He's a business owner, national public speaker,consultant and author of A
Different Way to Win: Dan Rooney's Story from the Super Bowl to the Rooney Rule. Jim is the son of Dan
Rooney. He's a former owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers and his book talks about his dad and the work he did
in the areas of diversity and inclusion for the NFL. Jim, welcome to the Workology podcast.
Jim Rooney: [00:01:19.20] Jessica, great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:01:22.32] Let's start with your background. Your father, Dan Rooney, took the
Steelers from the worst team in the league to one of the most successful. He drafted some of the first black
players and it was seenas an innovator because of his approach. Can you tell us more about that?
Jim Rooney: [00:01:37.44] Absolutely. So, yeah, we go into a lot of that in the book that I just wrote. So my
grandfather startedthe Steelers back in 1932.And as you said, we were the worst team on the field. We lost
more games than any other team yet of all types of stories. I think one that really gives you an example from
a business standpoint of how bad we were is that, you know, you have sponsorship relationships with
different different products and most people have some type of car sponsorship. Back in the late 40s and
early 50s, we had a deal with a Buick dealer in Pittsburgh. And the car he gave us because we were so bad
couldn't go uphill. And everything in Pittsburgh's on a hill. So my father used to have to put the car in
reverse and back up a hill any time he went up and that official vehicle, the Pittsburgh Steelers, on it. So I
think that gives you some sense of how bad we were in the early days when my father really took over the
day to day management and did a lot of things. He committed to tried and true practices.He really brought
vision to the team. He brought a hiring process that has been known as one of the best in all of sports, really
effective negotiating skills.
Jim Rooney: [00:02:49.44] And then one of those was was part of his vision was a commitment to what he
would call integration. And so he hired a gentleman named Bill Nunn, who was one of the first African-

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American scouts in NFL history. And from 1968 to 1976,the Steelers drafted more players from the
historically black colleges and universities than any other team. And those folks went on to to win more
championships in a shorter period of time than any other team. They took really important roles and there
were severalmilestones. In 1974,our head coach, Chuck Noll, named Joe Gilliam as the first African-
American man to be named the starter of a starting quarterback prior to the beginning of the season. And the
quarterback in football is by far and away the most important position. So, you know, this was really
important milestone, obviously, to build on hiring the scout. And then Tony Dungy, who went on later to win,
was the first African-American man to win a Super Bowl championship as head coach was named as our
defensive coordinator. He was the first African-American man to be named defensive coordinator and also
the youngest person ever to be named defensive coordinator. So you see this commitment to innovation. It
really changed our organization. And and it was it was my father's vision and then design. And then he
implemented that through a whole host of business decisions that really sort of createda competitive
advantage for us.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:04:19.28] And shaped the entire future of football, I mean, it's it's fundamentally
changed because of his decisions and forethought to to bring in some great players.
Jim Rooney: [00:04:33.08] Absolutely. You know, so, so many of these guys ended up in the Hall of Fame.
Donte Shell is just getting in this year. He went to South Carolina State, one of the historically black colleges
that we talk about. John Stallworth, Mel Blount. Mel Blount is probably the greatest cornerback in the history
of the game. Went to Southern, you know, his big rival school is Grambling, which is probably the most well-
known HBCU. And, you know, I always tease Mel. I have a I have a hat that a friend gave me from Grambling
and whenever I'm around Mel I wear that hat. So we keep those competitive experiences going all these years
later. But that was a special time and a special group of people. And, you know, they really came in with with,
you know, a different perspective. They you know, Mel had never had any white coaches or teammates
before he got to the Steelers, and he gets to the system and really feels the sense of welcoming and the
ability to participate. And as I said, that that decision to name Joe Gilliam as a starting quarterback really
sent a message of trust to these players that, you know, if you're willing to to not let these old biases get in
the way of who you're going to start as your quarterback position, the players really understood that at every
position you were walking the walk. It wasn't just lip service that we were giving these ideas that they that we
were implementing them in a meaningful and practical way.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:05:58.40] Your father was also the league's diversity committee chair, and the
requirement to interview a minority candidate for coaching and executive position now bears his name. For
those of us who haven't heard of it, can you talk to us about what the Rooney role is?
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:06:13.13] Absolutely. So the Rooney Rule is is a requirement and then there's
there's some some more to it that my father was heavily involved in. But it requires when there is an opening
at a head coach or general manager position, that now it's been updated, there are at least two minority
candidates in your final pool of of interviewees. And so the reasonthat's important is that that one, it's called
the diverse slate of hiring. And you're forcing people to to really bring in folks that they may not have have
had the same experience with as they develop their organizations.

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Jim Rooney: [00:06:53.09] They manage the organization and sort of forcing that change and then having to
is such an important upgrade versus just one, because all of the social science demonstrates that two
candidates in the pool, two candidates in the final pool of interviewees, really begins to break down biases
that that when it's just one oftentimes that one candidate gets looked at as sort of the minority candidate and
it almost puts them into another box, which is the whole the whole point of this is to is to break break down
these boxes. So so having two in the pool, I think is is a really important piece of the rule. The league has has
just also updated now to include the assistant coaches, the folks that that support the head coach. There's a
Rooney rule requirement in those hiring positions as well as throughout the entire league. Now, the vice
president jobs that at any level, whether it's marketing, communications, finance, requires a Rooney rule.
And in that case,the Rooney Rule has gender and sexualorientation as part of the requirement for for those
jobs. So so it goes beyond just race once you get to the the jobs at the office level.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:08:03.32] Dan Rooney was known for his willingness to talk and hear from those
who disagreed with him. What impact did this have on the franchise and in the league? Why is it important to
leaders in the workplace,do you think?
Jim Rooney: [00:08:16.88] Well, you know, I think you go back to to the Bill Nun's story that we talk about,
the gentleman I said was the first one of the first African-American scouts. And so so my father had this this
plan, this intention to become more integrated. And he realized he needed to take action. So Bill Nunn was a
very successfuljournalist. And every year he put together an all star team of the best black college players.
But that's black college all star players in the country. And so my father sat down with them and Bill was very
critical. He said, look, the Steelers aren't doing a good job with this issue. And frankly, I don't know that you
ever will. And so that's that's a that's a pretty different opinion than what my father was trying to put together
in this in the early days of his leadership with the organization. And he hired Bill on the spot. He said, well, I
want you to come in and guide us. And Bill went from a part time employee to a full time employee and was
with us, I think, for over 50 years. So there is one example. But but I think it is that idea that my father did
over and over again, which was you bringing people together, even if you didn't agree with them, to make
sure that you are hearing different voices, that you're not just a yes person, but also from the standpoint of
that person as well as the rest of the organization, you're creating that sense of trust.
Jim Rooney: [00:09:42.74] And Google did a big study a couple of years ago called the Aristotle Project, and
they said, you know what makes up the most successful teams?And it wasn't the resumes.It wasn't,you
know, the positions that you had. It was that on good teams, people feel a sense of psychological safety. And
the most important component in psychological safety is a sense of trust that that my voice can be heard
even if if my voice isn't necessarily the decision doesn't go my way. The idea that I can come to the table with
with my opinions, my viewpoints, my contribution is so significant. My father did that over and over again in
his career.And you see the results in sort of several major decisions and initiatives that he was involved in.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:32.84] I love hearing about this from a football standpoint because I feel like
sports. Everybody can relate to it. Most people can. And then you think about it, about how this can be
applied. I mean, the Steelers aren't just a football team.They're also a business, too. So they are applying
diversity, inclusion efforts in their hiring and their recruiting and their employee engagement or their player
engagement strategies.And you guys had amazing results that catapulted the Steelers to a whole different
place. I mean, that's the best return on investment story. I think that there is. And it's one that everybody can
can really relate to.

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Jim Rooney: [00:11:14.84] Well, again, if you go back to sort of the pre 70s in those days, I talked about how
bad we were in just about every category, we were lagging behind the rest of the National Football League
and really the entire sports industry. Since 1970, which which coincides you know just about the time, Bill
Nunn came in. He came in two years before that. My father made this commitment to integration. The
Steelers have won more games, more championships, sent more players to the Hall of Fame than any other
team. And off the field, you know, Pittsburgh's not a large, large market.Yet we're in the top five in television
ratings every year. In fact, over the last five years, those have been involved in a game that's been one of the
top ten television most watchedtelevision shows in America for five years.
Jim Rooney: [00:12:01.01] So so that shows you where the brand affinity is there. When you look at
merchandising every year, our jersey sales,etcetera,are in the top five, five or 10. So so in basically every
metric you look at, the Steelers significantly outpace their marketplace.And it goes back to a w hole bunch
of, I think, tried and true business practices that my father put into place. But certainly one of them is, is this
commitment to diversity. And it is you know, it's not just been the right thing to do. And I think that at the end
of the day was why my father did these things. But it did create a competitive advantage. We have outpaced
our market and outpaced our competitors by making this deep and significant of a commitment.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:12:43.37] Recent events in the United States have shed a lot of light on the topic of
racism and equality. What are your thoughts on where this leads us and what workplace leaders should be
doing maybe that we haven't done?
Jim Rooney: [00:12:55.55] No, I think it goes back to the example I keepusing, but but but it just you know,
it's it's such a great route to this tree that has grown over and over in many ways or grown grown up in many
ways. My father initially started this idea of saying, hey, we should integrate the team more and that was a
good thing. But then it became apparent that, you know, you bring folks in and they're natural leaders and
you need to be putting folks in leadership positions. So, as I said, naming the first African-American man as
starting quarterback, hiring someone at the executive level and scouting. We had with Joe Green, Donnie
Shell and Sam Davis, in the latter latter half of the 1970's,we had three of our of our team captains were were
African-Americans. And you generally only have three captains. So it was one of the first times and certainly
the first time a championship team had had three team captains. Again, the hiring of Tony Dungy as our
defensive coordinator. And then you move ahead to the to the modern times. Mike Tomlin is our head coach.
And the hiring process that my father used to bring Mike in is sort of legendary. We've had three coaches in
the last 52 years and some teams have three coaches in one year.
Jim Rooney: [00:14:13.46] And Mike is the longest serving and most successfulAfrican-American coach in
NFL history. So when you look at what do we need to do these days from a from a corporate standpoint, it's
not just committing to diversity, it's committing to making decisions to put diverse people in leadership
positions so that they can really have the ability to to change the organization, to have an impact, to bring
others up behind them, so that so that there are more folks who look different, sound different, etcetera,and
are able to be making these decisions and really empowering organizations. The other piece of that that I
think is important is, you know, when you look at marketplaces,marketplaces are becoming more and more
diverse. And the idea that that me as a white man can understand all the nuances of someone in the
marketplace, that that looks and has maybe a significantly different experience than me is is a foolish
business decision. So I want someone at the decision making, at the leadership level who has that

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experience and can can not only make my organization better, but also relate to my customers or clients
more effectively.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:15:21.35] That last piece, I just want to recordit and re stream it everywhere,
because it's what every business leader, what they should be doing and trusting in different types of people
with different types of experiences to help take their business forward.I mean, that's that's what diversity
inclusion is all about.
Jim Rooney: [00:15:41.77] Absolutely. And as I said, you know, I might be biased because we've achieved so
much success and as I said, createdthis competitive advantage, but by really going all in on diversity. And
as I said, my father really in many ways was a pioneer in this. Certainly from a from a social and political
position, he was heavily influenced by the civil rights era and Dr. Martin Luther King, but including that into
into business decisions changed sort of who we were.
Jim Rooney: [00:16:14.72] That that is a good thing. And you feel that sense of of camaraderie,of belonging,
of welcoming this. I hope of being welcomed,not welcome in this. I hope that folks feel that. But as I said
then, it's also been the key differentiator for us in the marketplace.
Break: [00:16:32.72] Let's take a reset.This is Jessica Miller-Merrell and you were listening to the Workology
podcast sponsored by Workology. We are talking today about diversity and inclusion with Jim Rooney.
Break: [00:16:43.49] Are you studying for your HRCI or SHRM exams?Join our free HR Certification Study
Group on Facebook. Searchfor HR Certification Study Group, or go to HRCertificationStudyGroup.com. ACE
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Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:17:00.44] The other thing I wanted to point out is you said three head coaches in
52 years. That's I mean, I think about most organizations with average tenure, pre coronavirus really being at
about two to two and a half years in the market. How amazing is that? And so this is, again, another business
story, a business case of how having a great culture and having diversity and inclusion initiatives and a
program that's formal and organized can drive really amazing performance,but also really fantastic retention
results of your key people.
Jim Rooney: [00:17:39.08] Well, yes. And I think that the most important HR decision you have to make is, as
everyone in HR knows, is the hiring decision. And so my father really took a significant amount of time not
just seeing the X's and O's, and that's. That's the term people used for that, for the technical side of
coaching, not just saying, hey, is this person competent? You need to be competent. But but really spending
time and conversations in deep and meaningful conversations about someone's mother or wife or children
or some other relationship, maybe a coach they had in high school and really looking for cues to see does
this person value other people or did they did they use other people as a sort of stepping stone to move
forward? And the idea that that relationships are important and the value that one puts on other significant

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people in their life were the cues that my father really used to understand whether this person would be a
good cultural fit and he felt that they can they can really be have different approaches. Coach Noll was very
quiet. He, coach Noll was our coach, most successfulcoach in Steelers history from 1968 to 1992.
Jim Rooney: [00:18:53.25] Coach Noll was quiet. He was a teacher.He really focused on on simplifying
things and then educating people on what are the best techniques and practices and strategies against their
opponent. Coach Noll went to the Hall of Fame. Coach Cowher, just got Bill Cowher just got electedto the
NFL Hall of Fame. He was much more of a traditional motivator. You know, I always say to Bill when I see
him, I wish you'd run for president. He just has that affect. When he comes in the room, he gets you to want
to do things that that you feel that sense of motivation. I'm 5'7, 160 pounds. And when I'm around Bill
Cowher, I want to put a football helmet on. He just he just has that strong motivational impact. And then
Coach Tomlin is is different than than both of those folks. And he's just a very matter of fact guy.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:19:48.21] He's very straightforward, you know, sort of emotions on his sleeve to a
certain degree. You know, it is what it is. He uses the term. The standard is the standard. So all three of these
men have very different personalities. But my father in the interview process really felt that they valued
relationships. They valued those who were important to them in a meaningful way. And that was the basis of
what he wanted in the culture.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:20:13.86] I've had conversations recently about getting comfortable being
uncomfortable in relation to being a business leader. Your dad seems very comfortable wading in that
discomfort, sometimes for a very long time. How do you think his ability to do this contributed to the
success of the franchise?
Jim Rooney: [00:20:33.21] Well, I think that was one of his core values. He really said there's a term that the
coach Noll actually brought, but that my father really embraced,and that is you never arrive. And he
understood that, that you had to step into challenging situations. You didn't try to get around them. You
know, I think the simplest example story is my father was was a pilot. He had his private pilot's license. And
so one day he's flying home from our training camp, which is about a 20 minute flight, and the power goes
out in the cockpit. And so he was he was a little older at this point and had arthritis. He couldn't win the
wheels down. There's a way that if if the power goes out, you can still bring the wheels down for a landing.
He wasn't able to do that. So thank goodness this is during the time of cell phones. He calls the tower and
says, look, I'm going to fly around and burn off as much fuel as I can and then I'm going to belly flop the
plane in the grass strip betweenthe runway. So by the time he does all this, every first responder and every
news organization in Pittsburgh is at the airport. And he belly flops the plane and comes in and he goes
home and my mother's crying and he says, What are you crying for? That was my best landing. And there's
obviously humor in that story. But I always say that's just such a good example, whether it was,you know,
his time in Ireland and there was a tremendous conflict betweenCatholics and Protestants in Ireland, he set
up a large global charity to really deal with with the peace process in Ireland and was considered to be a very
effective charity.
Jim Rooney: [00:22:05.25] And President Obama actually eventually named him ambassador to Ireland.
Whether it was Labour negotiations and he was the lead negotiator for the the NFL versus the players
association. And he always found win win situations in very difficult negotiations. There are obviously his

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work towards fairness and equity and race within the NFL, whether it was coaches,players, etcetera.You
know, each of those situations were difficult. You know, there were people with with strong, different points
of view, different ways of how you were going to do it. And it was going to take a long time to really bring
about any type of significant change, I think, in any of those major initiatives, let alone his management of
the Steelers, which which is. And he transformed, so he he waded through decades, often trying to trying to
do the right thing, as he would always say, trying to play the long game, but not avoiding the difficult
situation, being involved in conversations that would make you uncomfortable, but always being willing to
address that, being willing to listen to someone who didn't have the same point of view, but but not being
people pleasing either. He had his backbone. He was he was a pretty tough guy. And he was always willing
to give you his feedback because he felt like he createda container for respect where where he heard your
point of view. And then he he expectedthat he would have the opportunity to give his point of view. So so in
doing that, stepping into challenging situations, I think in many ways energized him. You know, and I think
the airplane story is probably the simplest way to describe it.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:23:50.60] We often compare workplace morale to morale on a sports team. Can
you talk about that a little bit? Do you agree?
Jim Rooney: [00:23:57.92] So, yeah. So I think that's fair and unfair. It's interesting. So on one hand, I think
we all make judgments of people that we see on the screen. You might see,you know, a quarterback and a
wide receiver and they walk by each other and someone's rolling their eyes or not looking eye to eye at these
folks. And there's an automatic judgment that these folks have bad chemistry. And the reality is that might be
three seconds of time. And these folks are together from August until January for, you know, a tremendous
amount of time. I mean, they usually live together in the summer. They travel together, and go on road trips
to awaygames. And you're more than eight hours every day. You know, they're spending time in classrooms
as well as on practice fields together. So on one hand, the idea that we make judgments on this morale, you
know, is a little bit inaccurate.But I think that's a good point for your question as well, because I think we all
do that. I think we make judgments on things that sometimes we only have a realsmall snapshot of. And I
think it's important when we think about the morale or even when when there's a negative situation in the
culture we make,are we putting too heavy an emphasis on just a snapshot that we saw, on the other hand,
talked about culture and I talked about my father's commitment in the hiring process to really try to bring
people in, get people involved and bring them on board on his teams that really had this fit, not just
technically and with the competence you need, which, again, you need those competencies,but really in the
way they value relationships.
Jim Rooney: [00:25:36.62] And I think if you if you create those situations, the group becomes much stronger
than the individual parts. And I've seen that over and over again. I've seen it with with teams,with a lot of
talent, are great teams in the 1970s who had a tremendous amount of players who went to the Hall of Fame
and had more success than any other team, but also in later years when you didn't have quite the same
talent. I've seenteams make the playoffs that were really, really didn't have enough talented to to make the
playoffs compared to some of their competitors. But because that culture was so strong that the morale
really was the thing that led them to become more effective than they would be on an individual basis. So
there's there's no question that if you build an effective culture, you're able to you're able to to sort of go
down and dig down and find that that motivation and that resiliency that people need to to you know up the
morale when it needs up and deal with with losses, challenges, difficulties, whatever it might be to have that
that type of morale to pull you through those difficult situations.

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Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:26:45.80] Well, Jim, this has been an awesome conversation. I want to talk about
the book. Where can people go to get the book or an end if they want to connect with you? Because I know
you do a lot of speaking and different things. I think you would be it would be money well spent on anyone
that would bring you you into their organization to talk with their employees and business leaders about the
work that you're doing.
Jim Rooney: [00:27:11.00] I greatly appreciate that and all of my marketing folks are ready to kill me, I'm sure,
because I probably won't hit all of these as well as I should. But you can get the book A Different Way to Win:
Dan Rooney Story From the Super Bowl to the Rooney Rule at Amazon. You can get at Steelershop.com. I
think that you there might be a few Barnes and Noble, but you can get at Barnes and Noble online as well as
other online booksellers. We're coming out with an audio version this fall so look look for that. That's going
to be a lot of that's going to be a fun project for for folks to listen to the story. We're on Twitter so you can
you can find me there.
Jim Rooney: [00:27:49.07] LinkedIn, Jim Rooney, at co partner Rooney consulting. You can you can get the
book at Adifferentwaytowin.com, and then Rooney Consulting CCC, three Cs at the end is our website. So
you can you can get a hold of me and all those places and you know, love the opportunity to speak to any
organization that that thinks would make sense. It's a real pleasure for me to sort of tell the story about my
father and to see that that what he did can be helpful to folks who are dealing with leadership issues, dealing
with diversity issues, dealing with culture issues. I think that he did some things, in my estimation that were
pretty effective. And and if I can be helpful in communicating those, you know, I always enjoy getting to do
that.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:28:39.38] Continuing on a legacy, we will link to Jim Rooney's book, The
Consulting Company and Twitter in the transcript of this podcast, too. So you'll be able just to connect with
us directly over on Workology.com. Thank you so much, Jim. I really appreciate your time. And I look
forwardto seeing more from you on leadership and diversity inclusion.
Jim Rooney: [00:29:01.43] Jessica, it's a realpleasure to be here today and thank you for the time.
Closing: [00:29:05.87] Conversations about leadership and culture are extremelyimportant, and we need to
be having more of them because those conversations really spark change. As HR leaders, we can support
our company leaders with resources and training that can open up your D&I initiatives in a way that sets
your company up for long term success while also setting an example of what doing the right thing looks
like. Jim said during this interview, and I quote, You arrive, you have to step into challenging situations. I
love this approach and point of view. And I think this quote is something that we can all hold on to in our
work and our life, especially what's going on right now. As HR leaders,we have arrived and we have had to
step into challenging situations. Otherwise,your situation and the others in your circle of influence won't
change. Thank you for joining the Workology Podcast sponsored by Workology. This podcast is for the
disruptive workplace leader who's tired of the status quo. My name's Jessica Miller-Merrell. Until next time
you can visit Workology.com to listen to all our previous podcast episodes.

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