1. When talent talks to me about fees and numbers to book their shows, I find
it practical to give them a quick overview of the market and the Presenting
business so they can be clear on their planning. Talent is always ambitious,
and of course they want to perform. But just so they don’t leave it up to the
promoters, agents and self presenters at various venues and centers, I think
it’s practical to share with them up front some real numbers for their
planning. This is the business side, and the more people are involved, from
creative, intellectual property rights holders, sub-agents, everyone wants a
piece of the bookings returns. To get the stars out of everyone’s eyes, I like
to show them a place which they will have yet to get to. When it comes to
bookings in the real world, a new show will be taking its respective smaller
houses until comparable to the market.
Take a look at the numbers given in the chart below, which are recent Top
Ranking Box Office Scores:
Date Artist Venue Promoter
Shows/
Sellouts
Gross
Tickets
Sold
Total
Capacity
Percent
Sold
Ticket
Price(s)
09/07/16
Bruce
Springsteen
& the E
Street Band
Citizens Bank
Park -
Philadelphia,
PA
Larry Magid
Entertainment
2/1 10,048,796 77,670 80,000 97.1%
$150.00
$100.00
$70.75
$68.00
09/10/16 Billy Joel
Wembley
Stadium -
London, U.K.
Live
Nation/SJM
Concerts
1/1 5,948,960 63,379 63,379 100%
$126.30
$46.53
09/14/16
Bruce
Springsteen
& the E
Street Band
Gillette
Stadium -
Foxborough,
MA
NPS 1/0 5,439,521 48,324 51,664 93.5%
$155.00
$105.00
$68.00
$55.00
09/07/16
Drake &
Future, Roy
Woods,
DVSN
Staples
Center - Los
Angeles, CA
Live Nation 3/0 4,809,979 40,155 40,227 99.8%
$179.50
$129.50
$69.50
$49.50
09/01/16
Bruce
Springsteen
& the E
Street Band
Nationals
Park -
Washington,
DC
Live Nation 1/1 4,627,705 36,463 36,463 100%
$175.00
$150.00
$105.00
$65.00
Take a look at those capacities.
A typical arts or special interest show which is way too new, too different,
will have a hard time winning the heart and soul of businesses that look to
sell tickets in the largest way. For shows that can be very profitable with a
strong fan base, for sake of discussion let’s suggest proof in ticket sell
through so far has been a sweet spot of venues at capacity of some 2,400
seats.

2. In the case of PoPA, let’s suggest they have just 964 seats. But, the Creative
Manager and booker for the venue is a huge fan of the act, and really
believes it will do great at his/her venue.
What does a venue need to do to guarantee a return, how does the
promoter best negotiate the talent or show fees, and prove to the board if
one has to that the show will not lose money? ROI or Return on Investment
is one issue, but many venues want to continue to win patrons’ hearts and
increase share of visits and overall experiential wallet with a variety of
presentations and targeted arts interests. This offers value to their overall
repertoire or calendar to keep their arts center “sticky” for return visit value
to the patron. In some cases, making money may not be an issue, but losing
money is.
To ensure ticket sell through, a promoter may also have to be a media
planner and broker to lift and ensure ticket sale numbers.
Media and marketing is usually something the venue and talent buyer as a
promoter or co-promoter will already have in one’s wheelhouse. They are
used to having set media templates and marketing available in their
marketing department. However for some unique shows, maybe they don’t.
They can see and understand a fan base and even the mass market
popularity of the talent, but maybe they are going outside their regular
realm and don’t have the specific media available to market the show
correctly. Without a lot of research and available media or marketing angles
to grab a hold of that can be outside of the venue’s regular subscribers and
newsletter reach, they might need that targeting media to attract the fan
base like a dedicated magnet to get those butts in the seats.
If the venue does not have the specific market tools available, then some
promoters, if they are also in the media business or are tied to the network
of advertising agency media buying systems and rate cards, can and will act
as the media planner. Upon request of the venue, the firm can and will
devise the media for the marketing, IE radio, newsweeklies, entertainment
guides, target fan based publications, existing conventions or conferences,
online and digital mobility.
For the planning service and the media buying, the promoter’s firm as a
media buyer, as we do, will take the typical media buying fee which is a
commission of just 15%.
Let’s return to the PoPA: Which may be having difficulty proving to their
board this show is NOT a risk, just because it’s not Mozart, and it certainly
isn't Joan Baez.

3. For simple math: Let's push the capacity up to 1,000 seats.
If they are using $45, $55 and $65 for the ticket prices, all three of these
prices at one third each, average to $55.
So if they SELL OUT: then the gross for them is $55,000
Every venue since the beginning of the business regards 60% of gross as
their break-even. Anything sold as incoming revenue after that, is when they
make money.
Let’s come back to $55,000 as our given anticipated gross for show sell out.
At 60% for break-even, that comes to $33,000.
The Occipital Orchestra, for hire as off duty symphony players taking pick up
contract work, will come in and be hired for $10k.
That leaves $23,000 on the table. The talent and show producers already
believe they have set their rates at $25,000 per show. Yes, that’s metal you
hear grinding. As I have advised our talent or show providers, in order to
make this work, you are going to have to take a leap of faith here. Your
promoter knows what we’re doing, when I say for wiggle rooms sake, you
will most likely have to take an offer of $20K for the booking. That leaves
$3K. Does the promoter get that?
Well, at 15% between the talent’s fee value and maybe some from the
venue side - maybe. But the venue also has labor, security and FOH coming
in at about $3K, so for operations, a-v grid, etc., every time they open their
doors they already have the line item for another $3K. That leaves what
part of what margin to think the promoter is taking a big chunk out of
WHAT...?
Back to the media buy to sell the tickets. Let's say the venue says, “Gee RK,
we just have our mailing list from our newsletter and semi-annual mailer for
our regular pops agenda, and yes, our email list. What have you got in the
way of media to help point the fans and sell this thing through?”
IF there is a budget to help sell the show, which is proposed that the venue
or co-promoter as the show buyer will pay for, as part of the added
marketing budget allocated for this show, that is now another line item. By
the way, you haven’t seen that line item mentioned in the scenario so far,
have you?

4. Now you see why the theater or arts center venue is nervous. I could say
something like, “Okay Venue - I have these three Hot A.C. radio stations in
your metro market, these two alternative newsweeklies, the Pink
Entertainment section of the Chronicle (whichever), the favorite fan
publication for these guys, called the Twisted Dark Fray, with its monthly
readership being promoted to your house and box office, digital and
mobility... now what's your budget?”
The arts center or venue may say, “Well, we can spend $10K on marketing
media to make sure we get the difference on selling out to get back to that
$55K income on gross. “
If they spend the $10K on the marketing and decide to make that media buy
through the promoter, IF such as our firm, the promoter is also a media
company, the promoting firm will execute the plan as receiving the value of
the media (with the venue’s or booker’s consigned obligation to pay for that
media) to buy the media as advertising for the show on behalf of the venue.
This hopefully drives the tix seats sales up; the creative for the marketing
for the show can be fit into the pre-designed, pre-approved templates, for
newspaper, radio etc., as the media kit which is then ready to go. This
media kit is now turn-key, and it has been approved by anyone who holds
the I.P. on the show to protect the IP of the show, ie the characters, the
designs, copy or other entertainment brand extended elements.
-
As the sun finally sinks into the west, and night fall begins the show at
8:00PM, the Promoter, by way of being the media planner and marketing
arm to place and secure the media for the show ticket sales, can finally earn
something on this bookings deal, to make the big fat 15% of $10k or
$1,500,
while the venue hopes that at $33,000 costs + the $10K for marketing
media, that they come back to sell out above the $43K combined - to
make the gross return of $55K… or their big fat $11,000 for the risk...
- because they also just loved the show. I did say in the beginning that
the booker and the venue are fans.
The Promoter has made a big fat $1,500 - out of the whole wash...as
needed, maybe, instead of taking margins on the show booking.
Every situation is different. But let's jack the capacity up to 2,000 seats or
up to 2,400 for a place like the sweet spot we spoke of in the beginning, and
you can see either way, no one is getting a trip to see their banker in
Curacao yet. Yet, the Talent or producer of the show will always get the set

5. agreed Talent fee. The Talent is always informed in advance on the capacity,
and the estimated ticket prices, in order to make an informed decision
before they accept the booking.
I have mentioned in meetings the help of bringing in sponsors to help cover
costs of a show, and reduce the financial risk on the venue or center if they
are shy on booking. We also know that talent with an incredible size fan
base who are active on the social media sites can promote dates and sell out
a show, three months in advance. We just saw this happen this week.
That’s a marketing gift, and an eased shoe in for a venue taking a greatly
lessened risk on the booking.
Ah. So then when the rights holder on the show brand hears this, they think
if the total show cost is covered, they want a Larger Piece of the Action.
Let’s come back to the numbers of a show like this, a labor of love, which
will help build the brand for the rights holder. But certainly as of today, is no
Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band.
When I suggest bringing in a sponsor - or even three sponsors for example,
perhaps at $10K each – maybe - as a back up to cover the venues obligation
and help mitigate their risk of their financial exposure, and if the price of
sponsorship covers the talent fees and what the house sees inclusive of
marketing and operation fees for soft venue costs, I can assure that any IP
rights holder is not going to be in a big profit share mode anytime soon. In
each case, and it can take a LONG time to develop sponsorships across
varying, disparate and not blocked out venue dates as on a fully booked
string tour, any sponsorship will be dribbled and dripped in to cover, when
the sponsorship is solicited for these onesie-twosies bookings, case by case.
Next, corporate sponsorship buyers aren’t looking for one date, or thirteen
dates in a string or tour of 13 weeks. If you have 80 to 100 dates, they’ll
come to the table to talk.
In this case, it’s not as if we’re announcing “ABC Show, Tour Dates: Jan 15
through Mar 30, 16 shows, combined capacity 48,000, all attached media,
Diamond sponsorship value $360,000 for all 16 shows in the tour date
string, brought to you by You’re An Angel brand. Sign here.”
Maybe the IP rights holder wants some additional clause that says that if and
when any or all sponsorships cover all the show fees and costs, they want a
derivative percent, and that might be a way to go on your contracting
underlying chain. But that really does not sound like any show brand
development arrangement which the IP holder may well have granted in the
spirit of helping them help the producers and us as promoters get this

6. property off the ground. What everyone wants to give and get back is the
mature grand slam of property development for sequels, as next generation
entertainment in this or any other related new media.
Yes, when this show gets up to 10,000 seats it's a very different story. I
think it takes a LOT of build up time to get to that point. Unless the IP holder
wants to hand over their corporate affiliates list, and take some time to see
what those corporate partnerships already signed to the IP brand might be
able to help with in terms of support. Dollars and other collaborative tie ins.
Then we as promoters and bookers might be able to look at the marketing
leverage differently.
I hope this helps talent, self producers, venues, bookers and fans. Believe
me, this is always a labor of love. If I've gotten lucky, the promoter can
always disclose the values they hope to get from working the show, and in
some cases they have to include the margin for outside agents or buyer
services.
But as I say to the talent, even if they have the most amazing thing going
for a very significant fan base, these values are never mature until the
property is. Without banking too much on Business Education while Talent
keeps their eye on the show as creative and talent, I assure them this will be
the area that they don't want to be overly involved with operating. I hope
that since I've spelled it out once so they and everyone involved can see it, I
then also hope that they’ll see that I've got their backs.
Before I let you out of here, I’ll share another version of show talent pricing
which we’ve been using as the method that other promoters and bookers
have used. As talent or producers, you may have seen this before. This is
nothing new and I use it for our Spontaneous Fantasia show. He’s a one man
show with a LOT of technology, but just one talent.
This is the 40% of 60% of gross calculated show fee method: if the venue
knows breakeven is 60% of capacity, the show fee is offered at 40% of the
60%.
Example:
Capacity: 1,000
tix price: $50
Gross $50,000
Breakeven (x .6) = $30,000
Show fee at just 40% of breakeven = $12,000 show fee

7. This gives the venue as promoter or booker a comfortable head start to get
up to 60% of capacity sell through.
Profit revenue shares can be discussed AFTER that 60% in the first position
is drawn to the buyer as booker - promoter.
But at just $12K for a show fee- MAYBE that's just a version of our full show
which is a two man talent show version.
If a symphony contracts the show, they already have a symphony. If
however, a venue wants to hire an orchestra to go on top of the $12K for
talent fees, that's just another line item at that point.
I think now you can see that 2,000 seats plus is the practical sweet spot on
special interest shows like this. But practical, smaller venues also have
interests, and fans love smaller intimate spaces at 1,000 seats, even less.
The idea is to leave them a night to remember, wanting more, a whole lotta
love and a whole lotta press. The press and the marketing go into a reusable
template for next venue bookings… and that’s the long tail build.
Ron Knight
KMI Presents