magzine notes

1. Chicago Muslim Oral History Project/American Medina: Stories of Muslim Chicago
Chicago History magazine Project
Journey: Muslims in Chicagoland have two basic kinds of journeys: physical and spiritual. The physical
journeys might include those of immigrants, refugees, and migrants, such as the Great Migration.
Spiritual journeys might include non-Muslims’journeys of conversion to Islam or Muslims’journeys in
understanding their faith.
Abdul Mallick Ajani
[00:09:16]
AMA: So I went through that whole process there. And, once I was able to complete middle school, then
I went to a private school and finish up my secondary education. And so there, we call it, once you
graduate from that, they talk about you've completed your metrics exam. And then you move on to
college, just like you do high school here and then go to college. I moved to college at that time, and
again, finished up college. College was for four years to get my bachelor's degree. However, at that time,
when I was, I think in my second year, that is when a lot of difficulty happened with civil war. So I lived
through the civil war and then moved over to West Pakistan, which current day is Pakistan, only Pakistan,
right. So East Pakistan became Bangladesh and the West Pakistan stayed as Pakistan. And then once I was
in West Pakistan, obviously my family had to move also because of the civil war. Then I completed
education in West Pakistan, in the city of Karachi before I came to the United States in 1972.
[00:11:09]
INT: I see, okay. And you mentioned the civil war in what becomes Bangladesh or what was then East
Pakistan, was that a civil war that led up to the independence of East Pakistan?
AMA: That’s correct.
INT: And could you tell me a little bit about your experiences in East Pakistan before you left for West
Pakistan? What of course is now Pakistan proper?
[00:11:36]
AMA: Sure. So, East Pakistan, as I had mentioned earlier, it was a much calmer kind of an environment,
and people were very friendly, cordial, and right before the civil war when there were movement for the
independence of East Pakistan into Bangladesh, that's when difficulty started because we were not
considered there as the local Bangladeshi, even though, you know, we all spent all our childhood in
Bangladesh. We went to school there, spoke the same language, but we were still not considered the local
Bengali people. And, so it became more and more difficult when, right before the civil war, you know,
certain sections of the population became very violent. And so thank God we personally, our family, was
not impacted in any kind of violence, but we all lived through the civil war and obviously any kind of
war, including civil war is not easy. A lot of difficulty happened to a lot of people and obviously, leading
up to the point right before the independence took place, we had the opportunity to leave and move over
to the West Pakistan. So we did that and right after we left, I think several months after that, I would say
about three, four months after that, East Pakistan became independent at that time.
[00:13:55]
INT: I see. So that moving from East Pakistan to West Pakistan. And, what was your life like then? It
sounds like a relatively short amount of time before you came to the United States, but what was your life
like and your family's life like in West Pakistan at that time?
[00:14:14]

2. So, initially when we moved over to West Pakistan, the life was a bit difficult too, because we had to run
away, kind of a situation from Bangladesh where we were settled for years and years and years, and
become very difficult to settle. We were lucky enough that we had some family, my father's sibling was in
West Pakistan. My mom's siblings were in West Pakistan, that definitely supported us. Initially I do
remember that, as we were coming, we didn't come all together. We came separately, and as each person
was coming over, we stayed with our uncles and aunts for a little bit before we were able to find a place,
and obviously they assisted us in our settlement, but that settlement year, you know, it took, you know, a
good year plus for us to settle down and find jobs while we were in the business in East Pakistan.
[00:15:32]
AMA: And then in West Pakistan, we started working. As many siblings could find the jobs. And that
period was a bit difficult. My parents and my other siblings stayed in Pakistan for a little while before
they also moved to the United States. But they lived there for a good, you know, more than decades, a
decade before they came over. So I would go to school in the evening and work during the daytime. So
that was a life and it was a big adjustment from the life that we had in East Pakistan, and so got used to it.
In West Pakistan, also, while I was there, the schooling at times is irregular. And so at that time, I talked
to some of my friends had come to the United States, to Chicago. And, so we had communication, and I
thought about coming to the United States to complete my education because education was becoming
difficult in West Pakistan for me. And, so then the family decided, yeah, it may not be a bad idea. And, so
then I came over to the United States particularly to Chicago.
[00:17:33]
INT: I see. Okay. And your education in West Pakistan, or I guess what becomes Pakistan proper.
What, if you don't mind my asking, what were the difficulties that you were facing that kind of led your
coming to the United States?
[00:17:52]
AMA: Yeah, so there were political demonstrations, there were labor issues, and what that would do to
the education establishment was a lot of student population would participate in those kinds of
demonstration. And, many of these colleges would close down and they would be closed for, you know,
the classes would not take place for weeks at a time. Then you go back once it looked normal and school
was open. You would go there for several weeks and then another situation may occur and the school will
close down again. So intermittently those kinds of issues continued. And, as you can understand that
when the schools closed down, obviously education stops and you cannot move forward with education
and break all the time. And so that was something that was not appropriate. And we thought that, if I can
move over where there's a continuity in the education, then that would be appropriate for future. And
that's what led me to move over here.
-
[00:20:40]
INT: So then you mentioned leaving West Pakistan for Chicago in, I think you said 1972?
AMA: Yes.
INT: Okay. And what especially with what seems like a blizzard coming later today, what brought you
to Chicago specifically out of all the towns and cities in the United States that you could come to?
[00:21:08]

3. INT: Yeah, but, the only reason of my coming to Chicago was I had about, you know, three or four
friends here who had come over, I think, about six months or four months before I did. And I did not
know anyone else anywhere besides Chicago. So the talk was that if I knew somebody in the United
States and they are in Chicago, it will help me settle a bit easier than if I went to a place where I did not
know anyone. Particularly because I was moving to another country, a country I had just heard about.
And, I did not know about the lifestyle or anything. So, it was purely because of settlement, you know,
because I knew some three or four friends here.
[00:22:11]
INT: Okay. And, where did you come to go to school in Chicago?
[00:22:20]
AMA: So initially, when I came, I attended a community college to start, and that was in downtown
Central YMCA Community College on Wacker Drive. So, it started there and, again, I continued with
same accounting major because that is the subject, the course that I was most familiar with. And so that's
what I did. So I did education here, but then I finished up my education in Toronto, Canada. So, again,
after being here for a year and a half, close to two years, at that time, education was a bit cheaper in
Toronto, comparatively. And I, by that time, I had two other friends in Toronto. And, so at that time I
visited, just to see what kind of life Toronto would offer and then the schools and all that. And they were
comparable, of course. And so, because of purely the cost of education, I moved over. Quality of
education was the same. The lifestyle was the same. The cities were pretty much similar. And, so I
thought I might be able to finish my education in a shorter amount of time, because if the cost of
education is a bit cheaper, I might be able to take extra classes for example, and finish up the education.
[00:24:24]
INT: I see. And when you came to Chicago, what sounds like a relatively brief time and went to
Central YMCA College, do you remember where you were living, in the city or suburbs?
[00:24:39]
AMA: Yes, we used to live in the North side of Chicago and the street was called Lake Side. It's about, I
would say, you know, close to Lawrence subway. So about 47, 4800 North. I see a very close to Sheridan
Road.
[00:25:03]
INT: I see. Okay. All right. And so what was life like when you first got to Chicago in 1972? And you
were a student in downtown Chicago and living on the North side?
[00:25:19]
AMA: Yes. So, particularly our weather in East Pakistan, Bangladesh was like monsoon. A lot of rain.
Never very, very hot or very cold either. When I moved to West Pakistan, the weather is pretty hot in
summer months. It's extremely hot. And then I lived there for a couple of years, and then I came to
Chicago in December. It was very eye opening climate for me. And then, so weather-wise, it was quite a
bit different. And then when I started the school and had to go take the train to go from the North side of
Chicago to downtown, very cold. So, initially it was very difficult. This is from the pure perspective of
how cold it was. On top of that, snow, which I had never seen in my life. And a lot of snow, initially it
looked really nice outside and, you know, to play for a few minutes in the snow, but it got to a point where
saying, ‘Oh my God this is cold.’And then traveling, you know, in the train or the bus for that matter.
What's, you know very different, very different.

4. [00:27:05]
INT: And, so, once you completed your studies, where did you study in Toronto when you moved up
there?
[00:27:15]
AMA: So, so in Toronto, I just went because I was coming right from a community college here because,
remember the educational system is a bit different between Pakistan and the United States because in the
United States, you go up to 12th grade and then go to your community college. In Pakistan, where East to
West, you finished 10th grade, and then you go to college. So there's a difference of two years,
comparatively. And so when I was still in my community college here, I moved over to Toronto. So I
continued with the community college equivalent, and still the college there's called George Brown
College. And then, after I finished up with that, then I joined University of Toronto to finish up. So that's
where I finished my education.
[00:28:22]
INT: Okay. And where, then, once you've finished your education at the University of Toronto, where
did life take you after that?
[00:28:33]
AMA: So, my intent was that after finishing up with my schooling, I still wanted to come back to
Chicago where I started. And, so there was a debate between, do I stay in Toronto or do I move back in
Chicago? And so eventually, I decided that coming back to Chicago might be a better option for me. And
so I came back to Chicago in 1979, and then, just stayed here, and, you know, started working in Chicago
after the schooling. Plus after that point in time, my family decided that it might be a good time for them
to make a move also, particularly for my siblings who were still in the colleges. So from the education
perspective, they moved over and then obviously my parents also came here.
-
[00:40:56]
INT: I see, excuse me. And kind of going back to your siblings, joining you, at least joining you
literally in Chicago or other parts of North America, could you talk about kind of what that was like in
your role in helping your family leaving Pakistan?
[00:41:21]
AMA: Yeah, so after I came back here and again, like I said, from the education perspective, they were
in Pakistan and then again, educational opportunity, higher education opportunities were available here
and they could take a better advantage here. And so we decided that if the siblings could come here now, I
was already settled at the time. And so they would be able to come here and I can help them guide them,
you know, and settled them also. So, that's what happened with the siblings. So they started coming here
and then they started settling down right here. They, you know they also went to school here, finishing up
some higher education and then start settling down, started working, and we went from there.
[00:42:36]
INT: I see. Okay. And, let's see if my notes serve me right. You had at least two or three of your
siblings in the Chicago area, is that right?
[00:42:45]

5. AMA: Yeah. So me and two other siblings of mine, three of us are in Chicago. I say Chicago land area,
so Chicago, proper city.
[00:42:59]
INT: Yeah. And you also mentioned that your, if I'm remembering correctly, that your parents left
Pakistan for the U.S., or at least North America.
[00:43:09]
AMA: Yeah. For North America. Yeah. So, they also came here a while ago. My dad passed away a
while ago. But my mom is still here living with my brother. And so we've been here.
-
[00:43:49]
INT: I see. Okay. And, could you talk a little bit about what that was like having your parents come
from Pakistan to be here with you and your family?
[00:44:03]
AMA: Yeah, sure. So, you know, obviously it was wonderful. The parents coming in and, you know,
living with two, it was just like, all over, you know, childhood. And, in later years, parents were with you,
and, you know, life was much more like a family if I was living alone for a while. I was, you know, single
and then, you know, parents coming over gave that family life. When I was here and my parents were still
not here, it was a couple of siblings were here with me in Chicago. We were living together before my
parents came over, but the other siblings where other places, but that definitely gave us a good family, you
know, experience when they came over.
Hoda Katebi
[00:01:10] (first audio file; ‘Katebi, Hoda Part 1’)
HK: So, both my parents are immigrants from Iran. They came in the eighties during the war with
Iraq, a year after the revolution. And they came for college, cause they're both nerds, and they wanted to
finish their studies and during the war, a lot of the universities were shut down. So my parents came, they
came to different universities, particularly my dad. But he studied agricultural economics. So for some
reason, Oklahoma State University had that program for him. So they sort of ended up in Oklahoma as
PhD students with the expectation of returning back to Iran after they finished their studies. But they had
the first child, which was my older brother in 1988. And when he went back, when he was two years old
with my parents, he had a very bad rash, he had an allergic reaction to mosquito bites, I guess. And he
actually almost died. So my parents came back and they're like, well, we’ll wait until he's a little bit older
and then go back to Iran. And they had two more kids and now we're here.
-
[00:04:51] (second audio file; ‘Katebi, Hoda Part 2’)
INT: And then going from Oklahoma, how was it transitioning to city life?
HK: Oh I loved it. I loved it. Oklahoma was awful when I was applying to colleges, I actually created
a filter on my email that anything that had the word Oklahoma or Texas, it goes straight to my spam. But
it was not an easy thing to convince my father or my mother to let their 17 year old daughter travel across
the country and live by herself. but it was a fight that I was not willing to like, let go on. And we visited
Chicago once over spring break cause my mom had a conference and I really loved it. Like, I loved the

6. Lake. I loved the architecture, so it was really beautiful for me. And so I was like Chicago. It is, you
know, and, so I kind of set my mind on a really big city and that was really important to me.
HK: And I just was really drawn towards Chicago. I don't know why. New York was just like, it was
too much, it was dirty, you know, it's like a lesser Chicago, but Chicago just seemed like just enough for
someone who's transitioning into like, not living next to cows, you know? And so there was a, yeah, there
was a long drawn out battle with my parents, but I won obviously per usual. And yeah, I started, I came
here in 2012, September. The end of September of 2012, right before the, like my very first polar vortex,
which was exciting. It was terrifying. I remember calling my mom was like, why is it snowing it's
October?
HK: So a lot of environmental cultural crashes. but the transition was like mind blowing for me. Going
from like the confines of Oklahoma and just feeling like there's just like the ceiling and feeling like you're
just like under a microscope constantly. And like everyone's racist. It's like coming to Chicago and just
like, there's a few people who are racist. Turns out to be a lot more than I expected. But for me, I mean
also I was on the campus. So it was just shocking for me to like, be treated like another human being and
like situations that, like, that was the moment where I really realized how normalized I had made violence
for myself, that I was like, wow, it is not normal. And I should not be okay with someone like calling me
a terrorist as they walk in the street or flipping me off as they're driving by, you know, or like pretending
to hit me with their car.
HK: Like, that’s not normal. But I didn't know that wasn't normal until I came to Chicago. and I also
made my first Muslim friend, my freshman year of college, but that also was so difficult for me because I
also had so much internalized white supremacy and that I didn't want to be that kid who walked around
with other hijabis. You know, I thought that was weird. I thought that was like, I don't want to be that kid.
I wanted to make white friends and, you know, and like, I didn't want to be the outsider again. And so I
wanted to make sure that I distanced myself from who the outsiders were historically for me. And so, and
build with like the people who for me was like, okay, these are the people who like, are my people. I was
very wrong.
-
[00:30:38]
INT: Let's talk about you actually visiting Iran. How was that for you?
HK: So amazing. So wonderfully mind blowing, it was not black and white, I’m going to set the
record straight. But no side of the streets. There was actually more like couples than I ever imagined.
Yeah, I arrived, I think, yeah, super early in the morning with my mom and my younger brother. And I
remember that drive back, getting greeted by my aunt and my cousin who I'd never met before in my life
didn't actually know their names. We were practicing on the flight over. Arriving at the airport and just
being so overwhelmed beccause that was also the first time I had flown, it was like, that was the series of
flights. So my brother and I were also very overwhelmed with just the experience of flying and we landed
and we got and my aunt's car and we started driving back and I just remember sort of like drifting, as I
was like drifting off to sleep, just like seeing there's like this very, there's so many like lights on the
highway and it was very empty, like on the way to like get back.
HK: And that is like I had the sense of calmness that I felt at that moment, like feeling like I was like,
wow, I'm home. I can taste a little bit still like that feeling of that peace that I felt at that moment.
HK: And I was there for, I don't know, three weeks, I actually don't know how long a month, maybe a
month. But yeah, it was everything that I'd never imagined. Arriving and like seeing all these people on

7. the opposite side of the world who had never spoken to in my life, love me? And I was like, what is
happening? I don't know your name, but you're so cute. And I just want to give you a hug and like, this is
my grandfather. Like, I don't know, it was really, really beautiful and like overwhelming and difficult also
because my Farsi was atrocious and no one really spoke English that well. So yeah, it was a really
wonderful feeling. And I remember especially going to my dad's village. So my mom’s side of her family
lives in this sort of a bigger city, but my dad lives in, like that side of the family lives in this smaller
village, actually, a lot of most Iranians have never even heard of, and it's on the East between [Iranian city
and Mashhad] and going there on the train and everything.
HK: That was when I had an almost like out of body experience. It was a very surreal experience to
drive through these mountains. Of like there were like, there were dirt mountains, but the landscape was
just so breathtakingly spiritual and just thinking that like, ‘wow, my ancestors are from here. Like my
people are buried underneath the soil.’You know, it was, it was such a beautiful grounding experience
that I am probably always going to hold with me. That was really, really amazing. So yeah, that was the
summer after my freshman year of high school.
-
[00:41:54]
INT: Yeah, that's my next question was how has Chicago impacted you and shaped you who you are as
Irani Muslim?
HK: Well, all of my work started here, so my life has really taken the path that it has because of my
time in Chicago, because of the experiences that I had and didn't have. For example, I did not ever think
in a million years that it would be my full-time job to literally travel around the world, give you speaking
engagements about random things that I make up. I'm kidding, it's like well-informed research. That's
how the audience sometimes takes it, the racist ones. But, yeah, I thought it was going to be like a fun
thing that I do for like a year and then I stopped and then I figure out my life. But, no, I think Chicago has
been such an adventure and like, (Arabic), ‘God knows best,’ but like it, every moment that I was ready
for the next moment in my life, it's come to me.
HK: And I could not have imagined that happening anywhere else, just because Chicago is so special
for so many reasons. And I don't think that I would be in the same place, had I had gone to any other
university or ended up in any other city just because of the specificities of the environment, like the
abolitionist movement here. That's so, so powerful and articulated. So a lot of the abolition movement I
learned so, so, so much in my vision for the world. And like my relationship to my own work has really
changed around that because of a lot of those experiences here and being in a lot of these like really
radical, particularly black led spaces that I've learned so much from, um, in Chicago and that work, I don't
see happening really anywhere else in the country.
HK: And that's really, really amazing, But also like the challenges, I do feel like Chicago is one of
those cities that just loves Chicago and therefore we're working on things of international solidarity or
trying to say anything beyond the borders of Chicago, let alone the United States people don't care about.
So there's also, I think that lack of international solidarity in Chicago has also been really helpful for me
in being able to understand my role in a lot of the work that I do, and where we have a gap of people
working and where it's important for me to like fill in. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of things. And I would
lose my mind if I wasn't by the water I've learned.
[00:44:38]
INT: This is to like the last question. So, and this question is actually asked to all of our interviewees,
what does your faith mean to you?

8. HK: I like this question. My faith is absolutely integral and central to not only my sense of self, but my
sense of self in respect to the world and my understanding of what that means for me. So I've obviously
gone through so many different relationships with my faith, so many different relationships with how I
express my faith, how I talk about it, but also my own relationships. And I think that I've now gotten to a
point where I think it's definitely the number one thing that guides everything that I do and keeps me
grounded. And I think it's just like the repetition of like the beauty of Islam in so many ways, like really,
really crafts, such a framework of like both your body and like how your body is like being able to be
nourished in so many different ways.
Faith: Self-identifying Muslims have their faith and faith traditions that they also express in their daily
lives. These expressions might be through daily activities, for example, doing one's job while following the
tenets of one’s faith.
Constance Shabazz
[00:45:36]
INT: So, one important question in terms of your growing up, what role did religion or faith or
spirituality play as you were growing up and going to [Chicago] high school?
[00:45:55]
CS: That's a good question. Growing up, when I was living in Hyde Park and one area, I remember,
we would periodically go, and really my mother and my brother or brothers, whoever was alive at the
time, had been born at that time. We would go to a famous church that my grandmother was at. It's, what
is it? Metropolitan Community Church, something like around 43rd and King Drive. And it has a history
of who’s coming through there over the years, but we weren't really like official members. There was a
little church that was, I think it was like 50, maybe like 53rd, either 55th or 53rd Street. And I remember
us going upstairs and it was like a holiness church. And I always was like, afraid.
[00:46:55]
CS: Cause I was like, I was never brought up around like, you know, the kind of clapping and how,
you know, hollering kind of stuff. And it, and so, you know, it was like that fire brimstone stuff and it
would be scary to me. So, when we moved out of the Hyde Park area into Chattam, there were a couple of
churches around there. But we weren't really members of it. I mean, there was a Methodist church, my
oldest brother, because by time we got out there, I think he was about to go into high school. And so
church was more like, ‘Oh, that's where my friends go and we hang out,’ you know, and yeah, I went, but
I just was never, I wasn't feeling it. And as I got older, you know, maybe around 11 or 12, I found myself
just trying out different churches. So I went to a Presbyterian church. I went to a Methodist church,
Presbyterian. There was one, at the time it was like Christ Universalist church, you know, I think out of
Missouri. And it was like, I just didn't feel like I was really understanding or feeling connected.
[00:48:13]
CS: I mean, I felt that I had a spiritual base and, of course, you know, that became a popular term that
people have, spiritual versus religious. And growing up in an almost totally Christian environment, it was
like, well, when you talked about changing religion and you were just really talking about changing
denomination. And I didn't know that. Until, somewhere in there, the Nation of Islam had acquired
properties and actually built properties right in that neighborhood, because most of the Nation of Islam’s
businesses, and I say the second iteration, because some of their businesses that had been established were
farther North and like around 71st street. But these were like the, you know, Nation of Islam 2.0, you
know, like they had taken an old building that I think was a carpet store.
[00:49:16]

9. CS: And it was an import/export store. And they had started exporting things from, you know,
Southeast Asia and things like that. Then they had the grocery store and they had the meat market that
was connected to that. And then across the street from there was a bank. I think it was Chesterfield bank,
to my recollection. And they took that and turned it into the Salaam restaurant. Then they had a bank of
buildings, not all on the same block, but, you know, within one or two blocks of each other. They had a
clothing factory. Then they had the bakery and then they had the two story department store. And then in
the seventies, I think it was in the seventies, they built an office building that was on 78th and Cottage. So
my mother, you know, I told you she was a covert activist person.
[00:50:15]
CS: She was not really in the church either. But she loves the Nation of Islam because when she grew
up in Helena, Arkansas, the African-Americans there were segregated, you know, in terms of the schools.
And I guess I always hear about this theater, you know, and their response was, ‘Hey, we'll build our
own,’ you know, so they were at least one or maybe two African-American schools that were built there.
There was a movie theater because in white theaters, they have to be up in the balcony. And she said, ‘no,
we're not doing that.’You know? And so she had that sense of, we can have our own. And so she saw the
reminiscences of that in what the Nation of Islam was doing. And then we had one of the members, he
passed in recent years, who would come to our house and he would sell her the paper.
[00:51:18]
CS: So she'd get the paper, Muhammad Speaks newspaper. And she loved Malcolm X. Whenever he
would come in town, and I think he was speaking at [somewhere]. And so she always knew when he was
coming in. And she would stay up because, you know, that was one of the later night things and she
would be glued to the TV on the couch, and I'd come in, like, ‘now who was she watching, what's going
on?’And then, you know, of course all the noise about him, I was like, ‘why are you watching that man?’
But she was just an engrossed. And so, Nation of Islam, they're building economic base in the
neighborhood. So we would go to the bakery, the grocery store and people are always so nice. You know,
opened the door. And there was always clean cut men, you know, the bow ties and the women with these
scarves. And I was like, you kind of felt that the way I would feel like when I would see a nun. Like this
is holiness here, you talk to them in a different way.
[00:52:37]
CS: Although, my friends who went to the local Catholic school were telling me that all the times they
would get these wackings for insubordination, or whatever. And I was like, ‘that don’t sound like they all
that nice and holy.’
[00:52:49]
CS: So, then at that time, that's when the Nation of Islam the honorable Elijah Muhammad had this
plan to build a hospital. And he said, ‘we don't even have a first aid station.’ He said, ‘we need a hospital.’
So it just so happened that the hospital site that he was looking at was right in our neighborhood, right in
that little square area. And it was an entire city block that ran from 85th to 86th, Calumet to King Drive.
[00:53:26]
CS: Well, the good people in the neighborhood, they weren't liking that. So they started this petition
against it. So I remember sitting in my mother’s, my parents’ living room and somebody coming to the
door with this petition and talking about, you know, talking about building and I don't remember all the
details. I do remember that my mother said ‘I’m not signing it.’ I don’t know if she was the only hold out
in the whole community or not, but she said, ‘no, I'm not signing it.’You know, she was polite. I mean,
she didn't get in an argument with anybody she just said no. And so, I think I always credit, in part, my
mother for not directly introducing me and saying ‘Hey, why don't you become a member?’ But her
saying that it was okay.

10. [00:54:20]
CS: You know, because I know a lot of people who would have liked to have become members, but
they were afraid. And did those who did do that, some of them experience ostracization and isolation from
their parents and or other family members. And I was fortunate. I never got that, you know. So how my
dad get in here, but dad was not a church goer. I don't remember my dad going to church until later in
years in his life. Unfortunately my parents divorced and he remarried and I know who he and his second
wife were a part of a church. But other than that, I don't remember that. So I was probably around 15 or
16. And, well, let me go back a little bit. When I was in high school, we had a youth for Christ group from
Moody.
[00:55:22]
CS: They would come there and they would have meetings with us. So we had a little small group of
folks who would meet with them. But again, you know, to me, it was like, well, I need to be connected
with something. You know, if I'm not going to a regular church, I felt like I was duty bound, you know,
based on what I knew about Christianity that I had to believe that Jesus Christ was my savior, or
something like that. And so I remember, it had to be in my junior year because I remember there were two
or three other friends of mine. A guy named Harry, and then it was two other people. And they had this
youth for Christ outing. And to this day, Peter, I don't remember where they took us. I'm guessing it was
Wisconsin, we took a bus ride. Here we were just thinking about going up there, having a good day. And
our parents, if we didn't know where we're going, our parents didn't know.
[00:56:24]
CS: So we got up there and, you know, we got bored to these little sessions that they had. So we're
going to go out and we're going to do something different. So we went to this little lake they had, and the
story doesn't end nice, by the way, just to let you know. Anyway, we went to this lake and we got this
boat. And so we're going to go out on the lake. Now nobody knew how well anybody's, you know, their
swimming ability. And so I remember me getting out of the boat, Harry got out of the boat and another
girl got out of the boat. And so the girl who's left in the boat really didn't know how to maneuver well.
And so we heard Harry hollering ‘help.’And he was a jokester. And we're thinking that he was, you
know, just playing around and we didn't realize he was drowning.
[00:57:23]
CS: By the time we maneuvered ourselves, looking around in water. We're not life savers. We don't
know. We were just barely doing our little dog paddle stuff, and we were able to get to the shore and we're
looking at it. We’re just thinking, well, he must have swam to the shore. And I take people who are there
on the shore, you know, maybe said ‘we have our friend, you know, he was out of the boat with us.’And
then they went and got the people who were part of the youth for Christ. And then they did a search and
they found his body. I can’t say that I had no feelings of malice or anything. It had no connection as far as
me making decisions about not being a part of that, but I do think that at that time with when that event,
that tragic event occur, I think I really started like saying I really, really need to find me.
[00:58:38]
CS: Okay. I really need to make a decision here. This person's life has gone. I'm here. I need to be
making some decisions about what you don't mind. I don't know if I want to call it my spiritual decisions,
religious or whatever, but I knew part of me not staying with youth for Christ was probably the
remembrance of what happened. But also just the event itself, you know, one of those life changing things
and you say. So like I said, and then by the time we got back to school and this happened during the
summertime, it was that feeling of guilt. You know, people looking at you, like, they're sorry for you. And
[00:59:22]

11. CS: Like, I'm still here. You know, I remember the whales of his mother at the funeral, you know. It
was hard, you know, and here you are trying to do that one last year before you make that big step into
so-called independence. So it was like crazy, you know, it was really crazy. So, like I said, I kind of
backed up with my dad. So one day my dad came up to me and it's, I don't know, it's probably after Harry
and that tragic incident. And my dad was not, I mean, he was educated. He would, you know, at that time
constantly, you know, reading the newspaper, you know, that kind of person, working for the city. He
comes up to me and he hands me this book and he says, I think you might want to read this or something
along that line.
[01:00:16]
CS: And I'm like, first of all, I was shocked that he's given me a book, like, ;what is this?’And the
book was the autobiography of Malcolm X. And I'm like, so I didn't ask him like, well, why do you, I just
said, ‘okay.’ Because by then I had started reading books about African history, African American history.
And so, but to get that one from him, because I was like, ‘okay,’ never any discussion, you know, during,
after, you know, no question about it, and so I just feel like it was a sign from God, read this book. So
when I read it, the, the thing that got me was not the theology of the Nation of Islam, because I kinda
knew that. But what got me was Malcolm's transformation, human transformation story. And that's where
I was because I was looking to go to that next step, me as a human being.
[01:01:21]
CS: I mean, I was probably as tall as I was going to be. I won't say heavy, but, you know, where was
the growth coming? And it was here, you know, and so reading that story and the human transformation,
how do you come from? I mean, I never experienced what he did, but I was at some point, you know,
needing to grow up and, you know, experience things. And I was like, ‘wow.’And the other thing that
really got me was I decided at that time, after reading that book, I said, you know, I no longer recognized
as a Christian, Christianity would teach you that Jesus is god. I said, I believe that the creator, not a
human being, but the creator, his name was Allah.
[01:02:20]
CS: And I kept telling my friends that. I was like 16 and 17, you know? And they were like, ‘Oh,
okay.’You know, I didn't get any pushback like, okay, that's what you believe. You know, I don't know
how they took it. You know, it didn't matter. I said, I believe that. Now it took several years from that
point until, you know, I officially, if you will. And I'm going to say this, you know, I'm not sure people
who you’ve talked to who have so-called, I call it so-called converted to Islam. I really disdain that
moniker, because Islam as you probably have heard and read is a way of life. It is, yes, it is a religious
codification of that way of life and belief. And that, I believe that even if somebody came here from a, I
call a so-called Muslim country, which I can freely say that because of what we see as what is supposedly
representative of Islam.
[01:03:37]
CS: And it's not, it's a lot of culturalism, tribalisms, but that even someone who comes from a let's say
it's a pristine environment, you know, and Saudi Arabia is not it, but yes, if they came from there and they
were brought up as that, they still have to make that transformation to a believer. You don't just get born
automatic Muslim, you have to learn it. You have to believe it and practice it. And so, like I said, I pushed
back on that. So I believe that even though, you know, I said, it took me awhile to learn about the religion.
That's the same journey that anyone, whether or not they were so-called born a Muslim or someone who
learned about it and grew into it at a later day, we're all going through that, you know?
-

12. [01:15:01]
CS: So, afterwards, I mean, just the message, it was like, it just set my mind on fire. Again, it was the
human transformation message. It wasn't the fire brimstone, white man devil kind of stuff. They got me, it
was really like, you know, centering me in terms of my love for my people wanting to advance our
causes, social justice, you know, and also some spiritual base to it all because that was one thing that I had
a problem with some of the other organizations that had left out God, you know. And I know the history
of religion and how it has been intertwined with our [Sojourn], meaning African-Americans and how we
got here and how it's been used against us.
[01:15:59]
CS: So I certainly didn't want that theology, but I wanted something that was still spiritually based.
And it really had me going, I'm like, ‘oh boy, what do I do with this?’ But I have to say that I wasn't too
far afield, you know, like I said, I had that, that consciousness piece. I had changed my dress, you know, I
was a vegetarian, so I'd have to worry about no pork, nothing like that. So I was pretty far along, you
know?
-
[01:20:08]
CS: I count my mother as being the one to kinda set the table for me. And she had, you know, good
relationships with people who were related to, or part of the inner workings of the Nation of Islam. And,
you know, actually there was a woman that she knew, she introduced me to, who was married to one of
the department heads at the Muhammad Speaks newspaper. And in fact, if you see the mass head where
the hands across the globe, that was the gentleman who actually drew that. He was an ideal gifted [Ujima
G]. So he was looking for a secretary and I laughed because I was a ‘no typing secretary.’ I didn't know
how to type. Learn, learn, and learn. And so I went to work for him. And I worked at Muhammad Speaks
newspaper for four years. I worked myself up this ‘no typing secretary’ to, I don't even know what my
title was, but I was responsible actually putting the paper together.
-
[01:43:21]
INT: And how did your family react to your eventually joining the Nation of Islam?
[01:43:27]
CS: Very receptive. And when I was still in New York and I hadn't begun the processing, remember
those folks who we met at the school. Well, they were coming here for one of the saviors day. And so, I
felt so comfortable with them and so comfortable with my mother's reaction and acceptance. I called her
and said, mom, ‘Hey, you know, these people are coming to Chicago. Can they stay at the house?’ She
said, ‘yes.’ They came, I didn't come. I was in New York. They came in saying, ‘we love your mom. We
were in there, you know, cooking bean soup and all kinds of stuff.’ Because one of the women was a great
cook, you know, ‘we just love her.’ So it was nothing for her.
[01:44:13]
CS: You know never heard anything from my dad. My maternal grandmother was still alive then, my
aunts. I never heard anything from them.
[01:44:28]
CS: Never. In fact, what happened over the years, they changed their diets. No more pork, you know?
And everybody was trying to eat healthier, you know, that kind of stuff. Some more fresh fruits or, you

13. know, that kind of stuff. Never pushed back from my family. I'm so blessed. Never heard a negative thing
from them. And I'm so, so blessed because I could say so many people, I know, you know, couldn't even
sit at the table with each other, you know. I think for most people that has gone away, but to start out with
that kind of sense of support, you know, they didn't buy it because some of the things I told you, I was
already, I was already a vegetarian. I was used to that, you know. I started wearing long clothes, modest
dress, you know. I even had friends who weren't, Muslims who were pushing me about that, you know,
like, ‘Hey, don't you wear that scandi stuff that they have out there.’ Like, okay. All right. I won't do this,
you know. And so there was, like I said, that general acceptance that, you know, never that, like I said,
undergirded me, supported me and made that transition easier.