Omg it’s been going for 16 years

‘OMG It’s been going for 16 years!!’
The decline and survival of music fan mailing lists

Ruth A. Deller
(@ruthdeller)

Mailing lists, really?!
• Well, academics at least still use them… (Air-L
for instance)
• Clerc: the preference for mailing lists can be
down to ‘the desire to make personal
connections with other people, to feel part of a
community… *as+ mailing lists must be sought
out and joined, they require some commitment
from members ("you have to be there every
day"), and the mail comes directly to
subscribers’ (1996: 42). She argues mailing lists
attract fewer newbies and trolls.

‘Belle and Sebastian prove the power
of the fanbase’
16 February 1999: Number 41 in our series of the 50
key events in the history of indie music
When Belle and Sebastian were nominated for the best British newcomer
award at the 1999 Brits, few expected them to beat the likes of Steps and 5ive
to the prize. But then few realised the power a diehard fanbase could harness
in the internet age – or even realised we were in the internet age. Some cried
foul, Pete Waterman going so far as to demand an investigation into vote-
rigging. Yet this was no mere quirk but rather a glimpse into the future – the
era of bands being signed on the strength of their MySpace "friends" was just
around the corner.

Tim Jones, The Guardian, 14 June 2011

Two artists, two sets of fans

• Belle and Sebastian – part of 'the last • Cliff Richard – a ‘legacy artist’ (Baym
generation of analogue musicians’ (Baym 2011).
2011). • Continued to record and tour
• In 2010 released first material since 2006. regularly throughout decade.
• 70% of fan respondents aged 36-55 in
• During the decade went through several
2000-01. In the follow up study, all
line-up changes and side projects.
but one (who was 26) were over 35,
• 75% of fan respondents were aged 16-25 in with 71% of respondents over 50.
2000-01 with none over 45. Follow-up • The largest age range represented
respondents aged 25-40. (42%) was 60-70.
• 60% male (both studies) • 76% female (00-01) - 77% (10-11)

Step back in time… Sinister 2000-01

‘A list for Belle & Sebastian but more importantly about the
lives of People Who Listen To Belle & Sebastian' (Sinister FAQ).

• In 2000-01, the most active Belle & Sebastian online fan
community
• Set up in 1997 by Paul ‘Honey’ Mitchell and has an
associated website. At the time had an active IRC chat
room, #sinister.
• In Jan-Feb 2001, it had 1405 members, with an average of
twelve posts a day.
• Long FAQ and two-week ‘nursery’ period.
• More than half of posts were ‘off-topic’ – not about the
band.

• Creation of community norms via FAQ, posting style (long,
often poetic or abstract, prose (see Plagenhoef 2010)) and
group terminology.
• A distinct ‘community’ from other B&S communities – with
some overlap.
• Family established through chatroom bots having familial
names.
• Sinister Village: a ‘home’ for the list
• List crushes (and RL romances)
• List meet-ups
• Sillustrations

• before i joined sinister and corduroy smoke, i felt that b&s
was kind of my own personal music. i thought no one
would understand how I loved them and how personal they
were to me. but then i discovered a whole group of people
(scattered and far away as they may be) that feel the same
as I do. now when i listen to them i don't feel as alone as i
used to. (Alyson)
• 'No doubt many of you know and remember Jules... if any
Sheffield sinistereens are looking for a flatmate, or know
someone who is, then please please email either me or her,
she's quite desperate and she can't find a place anywhere.
…. If anyone can help I will become your bestest friend and
Jules will give you a big warm hug' (Mikey, Sinister, 06
January 2001)

• oh heck, i'd rather not think about it really. it's strange, if
sinister went down for whatever reason i'm sure i'd still
communicate with the friends i'd made, and there would
still be a forum of some description. I think it would affect
chat a lot less cos b&s are only mentioned once in a blue
moon anyway. i think due to b&s' relative inactivity for the
past year or so we've become a bit more self sufficient,
maybe i'm just kidding myself. (CS)

Step back in time… MoveIt 2000-01

• Created in 1995
• 318 members in 2001, averaging thirteen posts a day.
• Rules, but no lengthy joining process
• Set themselves apart from ‘official’ forum and its
moderation; but members tended to belong to both:
• 'We've had some interesting debates.- FREE to be
critical, FREE to praise. Even when there have been
opposite opinions, we agree to differ. That's
healthy, shutting you up, ISN'T.!...Forget the forum,
stick with MoveIt... it's "Simply the Best."!!!'
(Dawn, 11 September, 2000)

• 'I'm amazed reading stories about the famous
queues...and think what a fun experience that could
be, waiting in line with hundreds of other Cliff fans...I
hope that those of you who have queued for days
and days have been rewarded with some good seats.
(Fiona, MoveIt, 25 February 2001)
• 'For some reason I have always thought that Cliff fans
are more honest than people in general' (Ann-
Margret, MoveIt, 15 February 2001)
• 'we all belong to this list because of our love and
respect of Cliff, just think what he would think of all
this [fighting] !' (Lesley, MoveIt, 15 February 2001)

• Also developed a series of group norms:
• 'Else, from a snowy Denmark' (MoveIt, 23
February 2001)
• ‘I do love it when moveiters put their
country at the bottom of their letters and a
little comment on the weather. It gives me
a kick knowing we are united all over our
small planet’ (Margaret, MoveIt, 13
February 2001).
• Direct address to members but via list, not
private email.

• One-quarter of posts were ‘off-topic’ – not always
popular!
• ‘Yes I have [shared personal details] with a very
good friend I got through Move It – but only
privately, I would not do it publicly!’ (Soffia)
• ‘I find it strange when people…talk intimately
about their personal life…i find it worrying that
people would want to share personal information
with people they’ve never met’ (Clifffan)

Sinister in 2010-12
• 777 subscribers as of October 2012.
• 8 posts in the whole of 2011; 47 in 2010. Decline is gradual.
• Little discussion of the band’s renewed activity.
• Those who do post tend to be long-standing ‘BNF’s
• Migration to forums that have also declined (e.g. I Love Music
and I Love Everything)
• Offline connections remain:
• I bet we've had more babies than the Cliff Richard list
has!!! i reckon there's at least half a dozen children that
sinister is DIRECTLY responsible for, if not more, and at
least ten weddings!

Sinister in 2010-12
When people do post nowadays, there's a lot less oversharing about
their lives, which I think is a shame, since that's part of what made the
list so much fun to read in the first place… the band *are+ producing
debatably lesser quality music and being less prolific than they once
were… But you have stuff on the fan's side as well: the people on
Sinister have changed and so has online culture. We've all grown up, a
lot of people don't have the time or the inclination to write anymore.
Plus, now that we all know that everything we post online will follow us
around forever, we're a lot more careful than we were in 2000. I know I
cringe that some of my old messages to the list (written when I was in
middle school) will live in the archives forever. It's certainly taught me
to be more reticent online and I suspect I'm not the only one. It's a
shame, because like I said above, I miss getting glimpses of other
people's lives, but I understand why people don't do it anymore. (Holly)

Sinister in 2010-12
They [B&S] were once apparently an insurgent force, seemed to belong
to the fans or to be closer to the fans and their interests, were
perceived by people as representing them; and more simply were
making records that people loved. That changed gradually and B&S
became more like another band; and now they haven't released an LP
as B&S in 4 years and it doesn't feel an outlandishly long time (that is, it
feels like B&S are distant and absent and that's normal)… But let's get
to the other side of the answer to the question, which is about internet
use. My guess is that mailing lists are now considered a relatively
primitive kind of 'internet community'. They were superseded, if that's
an appropriate term to use, by other technical and textual formats like
the blog, the messageboard, and the manylinked pages of the social
networking site. Mailing lists became marginal next to all that. That's
probably the main reason for what happened to sinister; you need to
apply a certain technological determinism. (Joe)

MoveIt in 2010-12
• Estimated 400 subscribers – few arrivals or departures. 53%
have been on list over ten years; 82% over five years.
• 14 posts on average a day; posts made every day – most still ‘on-
topic’.
• Long-running threads (e.g. This Day in Cliff History)
• 90% of users part of other Cliff-related communities/
environments, but MoveIt still critical of ‘official’ spaces (forum,
Facebook).
• Discussion of Facebook, YouTube, Twitter and other platforms
occurs regularly – but on list.
• Messages addressed directly but also ‘to all’
• Many list norms/conventions remain from 2000-01.
• 71% of respondents were over 50.
• 95% of members have interacted off-list

MoveIt in 2010-12
• I have loved meeting lots of new friends at
concerts over the years. When my son was very
young and I became a single parent, Move It
became my lifeline to and social life as I was
unable to go out socialising. It really did keep me
sane and gave allowed me to express my
opinions on my 'hobby… many of the fan and
newsletters have stopped, so this is a great way
to keep up to date with news…. I think Move It
will go on for a long long time and I can't imagine
not having access to it now. (Lynne)

MoveIt in 2010-12
• We know each other, know the different personalities of
people who write and bit about their backgrounds. I love that
sometimes if I want to be really uber-analytical about Cliff's
music I can be, and there'll be people who respond and love
that, or I can be all fluffy and "lite" about it and people will
respond to that. And last but not least, receiving Cliff news as
soon as it happens. Gosh I remember when the only way to get
Cliff news was through quarterly fan club magazines. So
different now… we know each other now, that we've become a
community. Sometimes things happen to the Move-it list that
affects us all, like when someone from the list dies or becomes
really ill, that's when I realise how close we've grown to each
other, in an online kind of way. But 16 years? Nope, can't
explain that. (Fiona)

MoveIt in 2010-12
• Yes. I am a member of a Cliff meeting house, and I am on
facebook where I follow Cliff too. I'm also registered on the
official Cliff website/forum and have posted a few times, however
I find there are so many places to get information, it can be a bit
tiresome to log into multiple places to get information. That's
another reason Move It can be good - because it just appears in
my inbox where I go anyway. (Sarah)
• I did consider it [moving from a mailing list to another
platform]. When the Forum first launched, we lost a lot
of membership to it. Certainly an email mailing list is an older
form of online community. I offered to the list to have it moved if
they wanted. I even put it to a vote. They chose to keep the
mailing list format. I can't speak for all members, but I prefer
the mailing list format and the ability to control how I receive
and read messages via my email software. (Robert, list owner)

The mailing list: both alive and dead?

References
• Baym, N.K. 2011. Biting And Feeding The Hands That Feed:
Audience-Musician Interactions Online, Transforming
Audiences 3, London, 1-2 September 2011. Available at:
http://www.onlinefandom.com/archives/biting-and-
feeding-the-hands-that-feed-audience-musician-
interactions-online/ [accessed June 2006]
• Clerc, S.J. 1996. DDEB, GATB, MPPB and Ratboy: The X Files'
Media Fandom: Online and Off in Deny all Knowledge:
Reading the X-Files edited by D. Lavery, A. Hague and M.
Cartwright. London: Faber and Faber, 36-51.
• Deller, R.A. 2013. ‘A decade in the lives of online fan
communities’ in Duits, L., Reijnders, S and Zwaan, K
(eds), The Ashgate Research Companion to Fan Cultures
(forthcoming)

Omg it’s been going for 16 years

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