On 17th October, the day before the experience sharing workshop, the Centre for Education and Development (CED) planned a field trip to Ninh Binh for the Indonesian participants. After travelling two hours by bus to Ninh Binh, the group made its first stop at Tai Anh Import and Export Company Ltd in Gian Khau Industrial Park. Here, CED introduced the Indonesian participants to members of staff at the factory. Discussions ensued about how business was conducted at both Tan Anh and at the Indonesian businesses, Famous International Furniture and Mella Kreasi Furniture. This discussion was designed as a mutual exchange of ideas between Vietnam and Indonesia, and was particularly aimed at informing Tai Anh Import and Export Company about the benefits that the FLEGT-VPA licence system could bring.

1. 1
Report on Experience Sharing Field Trip and Workshop between Vietnam and Indonesia
Negotiations and Implementation in the FLEGT-VPA Process
17th
October 2016
Ninh Binh Field Trip
On 17th
October,the day before the experience sharingworkshop, the CentreforEducationand
Development(CED) plannedafieldtriptoNinhBinhforthe Indonesianparticipants.Aftertravellingtwo
hoursby busto NinhBinh,the group made itsfirststopat Tai Anh Importand ExportCompanyLtd in
Gian KhauIndustrial Park.Here,CEDintroducedthe Indonesianparticipantstomembersof staff atthe
factory.DiscussionsensuedabouthowbusinesswasconductedatbothTan Anh andat the Indonesian
businesses,FamousInternational Furniture andMellaKreasi Furniture.Thisdiscussionwasdesignedasa
mutual exchange of ideasbetweenVietnamandIndonesia,andwasparticularlyaimedatinformingTai
AnhImportand Export Companyaboutthe benefitsthatthe FLEGT-VPA licence systemcouldbring.
Followingthe discussions,all of the participantsweregivenaguidedtouraroundthe factory’s
showroomcontainingahuge varietyof woodenfurniture made onthe premises.Next,the participants
movedonto a restaurantwhere furtherexamplesof the furniture were ondisplay.The exchange of
informationandideasbetweenthe Directorof Tai AnhImport andExport CompanyLtd,the Indonesian
participants,andmembersof the CED teamensuedoverlunch.
In the afternoon,the Indonesianguestsandmembersof the CEDteam enjoyedatripto Trang An,Ninh
Binh.Thiswas a great opportunityforthe participantstogetto know eachotherin a beautiful
Vietnamese settingbefore the workshopthe followingday.
Indonesian guests enjoying a boat ride in Trang An, Ninh Binh.

2. 2
18th
October 2016, 8am-12pm
Pullman Hotel, 40 Cat Linh, Ba Dinh, Hanoi
Experience Sharing Workshop
All of the participants involved in the Sharing Experience Workshop
Participants
Indonesian:
Mrs. Mariana Lubis,DeputyDirectorof Export andImport of Industrial Forest ProductsandDirector
General of Sustainable Managementof ForestProductionforthe Ministryof EnvironmentandForestry
Dr. Agus Sarsito,Chief Negotiatorof IndonesiaFLEGT-VPA andSeniorAdvisoronFLEGT-VPA Multi-
stakeholderForestryProgramme Indonesia
Dr. Agus Suratno, SeniorAdvisoronForestryandClimate Change,GIZ-ASEAN GermanProgramon
ForestryandClimate Change (FOR-CC)
Mrs. Laily Maulidya,Directorand Ownerof FamousInternational Furniture
Mrs. Erik Sunarwati, DirectorandOwnerof Mella Kreasi Furniture
Vietnamese:
Mr. NguyenVan Ha, DeputyDirectorGeneral of VietnamAdministrationof Forestry
Representativesfromprivate sectorssuchastimberassociationandtimberbusinesses,CSOs,NGOs,
stakeholders,andjournalists(includingVoiceof Vietnam).

3. 3
Introduction:
In April 2016, Vietnamandthe EU reachedan agreementthatVietnam’stimberlegalityassurance
systemwouldnotonlycoverexportstothe EU, but all exportsworldwide aswell astimbertradedon
the domesticmarket.Bothpartieshave alsoagreedtoconclude theirnegotiationsbythe endof 2016.
HavingrecentlypasseditsFLEGT-VPA agreementthroughthe EUParliamentandEU Council, Indonesia
plansto issue the firstFLEGT licences on15th
November2015 at the earliest. Indonesiahasalso
developeditsowncertificationsystemcalledSVLKthatcoversall timberimportsandexports. As
Vietnamhasagreedtodevelopitsowntimberlegalityassurance systemand iscurrentlyinthe final
stagesof negotiationswiththe EUconcerningFLEGT-VPA,anylessons thatcanbe learned from
Indonesiatoaccelerate and assisttheminthisprocessare extremely valuable. Asaresult,CEDinvited
Vietnamese businessassociationsandcivil societyorganizations(CSOs) tothe workshoptolearnfrom
Indonesia’sexperience of the timberlicensingprocess.
Ms. KimLien,Directorof CED, openedthe workshopbywelcomingandintroducingall the participants,
bothIndonesianandVietnamese.She explainedthat Vietnam’s FLEGT-VPA negotiationsare of interest
to all the participantsgatheredinthe room, andthat it isimportantto considerthe potential benefits
and concernsof everyone.Movingforward, thesedifferentviewpoints needtobe harmonized sothata
systemforimproved sustainable forestmanagement andlegal timberexportation canbe successfully
implementedinVietnam.
She highlightedsome importanttopicstobe considered anddiscussed:
 How muchdoesthe administrationfee forprovidingFLEGT licences cost?
 What are the challengesinthe processof independentmonitoring?How doesthe verification
processof legal timberatlocal/businesssitesworkinIndonesia?
 What isthe role of the demandfora VPA-FLEGTlicence inIndonesia?
 Is there anypotential forcooperationbetweenVietnamandIndonesiainthe FLEGT-VPA process
(fromIndonesianandVietnamese perspectives)?
 What isthe relationshipbetweenclimatechange andforestover-exploitationinVietnam?What
are the solutionsforthe ideaof prohibitingtimberexploitationwhilethe demandfortimber is
significantlyincreasing?
 WhichorganizationsinIndonesiaprovideFLEGT licences?Are theystate agenciesornon-
governmentorganizations?Whatisthe capacityand organizational structure of FLEGTlicensing
bodies?Dotheyhave the capacityto verifycompliance of otherrequirementsrelatedtotax,
labour,environmentetc?
 How longdoesittake to receive alicence?

4. 4
Mr. NguyenVanHa, ‘VPA-FLEGTProcessin Vietnam’
Mr. NguyenVanHa, DeputyDirectorGeneral of VietnamAdministrationof Forestry,then spoke to
reaffirmthe importance of the workshopforlearningfromthe experience of the Indonesianparticipants
aboutFLEGT negotiations.He statedthatsofar Vietnam’sownnegotiationshadtaken6 years andthat
theyhopedtoaccelerate the final stagesof the processwiththe helpof Indonesianadvice.
The Deputy Director General of Vietnam Administration of Forestry addresses the workshop
He alsodrewattentionto the necessityof atimberlegalitydefinitionandthe time-consumingnature of
the processinvolvedtonegotiatethis.Itmustnotonlybe agreeduponby the Vietnamese negotiators
but mustalsocomplywith the conditionsof the EU. Furtheringthis,he highlightedthatamajor part of
Vietnam’sprogressiontowardsFLEGT-VPAlicensingwascontrol of the supplychain.Inorderfor timber
exportstobe considered legal bythe EU,all stepsinthe productionprocessmustbe conductedlegally.
He statedthat planswere beingdevelopedfora classificationsystemwherebyenterpriseswouldbe
rankedfromthose that fullycompliedwithregulationstothose thatdidnot, and that the introduction
of a comprehensive toassistthose withapoorlevel of compliance wasnecessary.He alsostressed that
the administration systemforthisshouldbe kept toa minimumtomake it simple tounderstand.Mr.
NguyenVanHa alsoremindedthe participantsof the technical workinggroupmeetingsthatare due to
take place on 23rd
-24th
October.

5. 5
Next,Ms. KimLienwelcomedDr. AgusSarsito,the Chief NegotiatorforIndonesiaFLEGT-VPA andSenior
AdvisoronFLEGT-VPA Multi-stakeholderForestryPrograminIndonesia.
PresentationbyDr.AgusSarsito, ‘IndonesiaTLAS (SVLK) and FLEGT-VPAIndonesia-EuropeanUnion’
Dr. Agus Sarsito provided an overview of SVLK and its parallel development process with FLEGT-VPA.
The three main areas were covered:whyIndonesianeededtodevelopSVLK,whyIndonesiaentered
FLEGT, and the progressof negotiations.
(1) Whydid Indonesianeedto developSVLK?
SVLKis a mandatorysysteminIndonesia, wherebyall forestmanagementunitsand companiesneed
to be certifiedtoimportorexporttimber.Itis designedtoassure the legalityof itstimberproducts
and Sustainable ForestManagement(SFM).Sofar,SVLKhascertified13.3khectaresof forestand
1,900 timberindustries.
Since the 1980s, the sustainabilityof Indonesia’sforestresourceshas beenthreatenedbyillegal
logging.Althoughtherehasbeenlaw enforcement(hardapproach) against iteversince, illegal
logginghascontinuedtotake place and reacheditspeakinthe year 2000. This waspartly due to
there beingalimitedpoliceforce tostopships inIndonesianterritoryfrom exportingillegaltimber.
As a result, SVLK wasdevelopedasa‘softapproach’that was designedto complementthis existing
hard approachto illegal logging.Togetherthese approachesaim toimplementmore effective
preventionof illegalloggingandillegaltrade.
The developmentof SVLKwasalsoa response tointernationalconcerns,particularlythe needto
protecttropical forestsworldwide.Dr.Agus Sarsitodescribedtropical forestsasthe ‘lungof the
world’andstatedthat theyplayedanimportantrole inaddressingclimate change.Inaddition,he

6. 6
highlightedthatconsumerdemandsforcertifiedtimberare growingandthattimber-producing
countriesmustrespondtothisinorder to maintaintheirmarkets.
SVLK was notsimplyimplementedbythe government;instead,itwasdevelopedthroughintensive
consultationswithdifferentmulti-stakeholdergroupswhocontinue tohave ongoinginvolvementto
ensure thatthe systemfunctionseffectively. These stakeholdersare listedbelow.
- The government(asa regulatorandfacilitator)
- National AccreditationCommittee
- ConformityAssessmentBodies
- IndependentMonitors e.g.NGOs –theyhave full accessto data and informationaboutall the
partiesinvolved,andare protectedfromcivil lawsuitsrelatedtotheirmonitoringreports.
Essential tothe developmentof SVLKwasfor all of these multi-stakeholderstoagree upon a legality
definitionthatwasbasedonIndonesianlawsandregulations,andthiswasthe startingpointof the
developmentprocessin2002. Inadditiontothis, constanttransparencyisimportantforensuring
that everyone isrepresentedandanychanges thatneedtobe made are firstdiscussedandagreed
uponby all the stakeholdergroups.
(2) Whydid IndonesiaenterFLEGT-VPA?
Timber-producingenterprisescannotpreventillegal loggingontheirown,insteadthere needstobe
a collaborative effortmade by timber-producingcountriesandtimber-consumingcountries.Dr.
AgusSarsitoexplainedthatif there isnodemandforillegal timberthenthere willnolongerbe any
needforproducingcountriesto supply it.WithbothIndonesiaandthe EU demonstratingstrong
commitmenttocombatingillegalloggingandtrade,the FLEGT-VPA negotiations beganandin2013
Indonesiabecame the firstcountryinAsiatosignFLEGT-VPA withthe EU. Theyagreedto work
togethertowardsthe mutual objectiveof ‘craftingthe new eraof timbertrade’inwhichonlylegal
timberproductscan be importedorexported.
(3) SVLK DevelopmentProgress
The developmentof SVLKbeganpriortothat of FLEGT-VPA andwas aimedatpreventing
Indonesianimportationorexportationof illegal timber toorfrom anywhere inthe world,
demonstratingIndonesia’scommitmenttoglobal change tothe timberindustry.Later,when
Indonesiabegantocooperate withthe EU,SVLKand FLEGT-VPA were developedinparallelto
each other.
Recent progress ofFLEGT-VPAimplementation:
2011: Negotiationsended
2013: Agreementsigned
2014: Ratification
2015: Concludedjointactionplans
2016: IndonesiaFLEGT-VPAgoeslive

7. 7
PresentationbyMarianaLubis, ‘ManagingFLEGT Licence’
Using a series of diagrams, Mariana Lubis explained the process for the issuance of a FLEGT licence.
Mrs. Mariana Lubis explainedthatthe SLVK-certifiedcompanieswhowanttoexporttimber mustbegin
by submittingarequesttothe ConformityAssessmentBody foreach shipmentinwriting.Licences
calledV-legaldocuments are thenissuedthrough bythe licensingauthoritiesthrough anonline system
calledSILK(TimberLegalityInformationSystem).The licensingauthoritiesare independent
organizationsregisteredwiththe Ministryof EnvironmentandForestry –there are currently22
authorities,whoare accreditedfor3years and subjectto annual checks.
The online applicationformforthe V-legal Documentrequiresinformationaboutthe type of timber,
qualityof timber,anddetailsabout itsplannedexportation.The SILKsystemenablesthisinformationto
be processedautomatically bythe Licence InformationUnit(LIU),whichisaservice providedbythe
Ministryof EnvironmentandForestry. The systemcreates7copies of the V-legal documentwhichare
sentelectronicallytoseveral places, includingtocustomsat the destinationcountry.
The FLEGT-VPA licence isthe same as the V-legal documentexceptthatitincludesthe FLEGT label.All V-
Legal documentsfrom15th
November2016 will include thislabel,sothateffectivelythe V-Legal
documentwill be replacedbythe FLEGTlicence andthiswill be a necessaryrequirement forthe
exportationof timberfromIndonesia tothe EU. For exportsoutside of the EU,the V-legal documentwill
still be neededforeachexport.
It is clearfromthisthat Indonesia’sagreementwiththe EU isan extensionof itspriorcommitmentto
preventingillegal timberfrombeingexportedorimportedfromitsportsto any country inthe world.
The developmentof FLEGT-VPA licensinginIndonesiawasnotsimplyaresponse toEU requests,but
part of Indonesia’swiderprinciplesconcerningsustainable forestmanagement.

8. 8
Main Pointsof Discussion(Question& Answers)
The Question and Answer section of the workshop primarily focused on obtaininginformation aboutthe
Indonesian negotiatingprocess for the development of timber licensing,with the main objective being that the
Vietnamese participants would learn fromthese experiences.
Q: Does Indonesiahave differentrulesforexportingto non-EU countries?
A: Outof principle,Indonesiadoesnotwanttoexportillegaltimbertoanywhere inthe world.
Developmentof SVLKbeganbefore Indonesiaenteredintonegotiationswiththe EU.All timberproducts
leavingIndonesianportshave tobe certified,the onlydifference forthose beingexportedtothe EU is
that theyalsohave the FLEGT licence stamp. DrAgus Sarsitosuggestedtothe Vietnameseparticipants
that Vietnamshouldalsodevelopitsownnational certificationthatisrecognizedbyothertimber-
consumingcountries.Thiswouldwidentheirmarketoutside of the EU too.He stressedthatthe process
for designingandimplementingthisinVietnammaybe verydifferentto that inIndonesia.Due tothe
existence of manyautonomouslocal governmentsinIndonesiawhocandefine theirownlegality,the
developmentof SVLKinIndonesiatookayearas theyhad to negotiate anational-levellegality
definition.
Q: Is SVLK organizedby governmentor independentbodies?Whatisdone to preventcorruption and
bribery?Are there differentproceduresusedfor plantationsand natural forests?
A: SVLKismade up of differentelementsthateachhave a role to playto run the system, sono single
bodyis neededtomanage it.Certificatesare issuedthroughanonlinesystemwhichislinkedtothe
Ministryof Trade systemandalsoto Customs,preventing licences frombeingbought.The onlinesystem
preventsfake certificatesfrompassingthrough.Inregardstothe final question,the critical indicators

9. 9
for plantationsare differenttothose fornatural forests,andalsofor bigand small industries,butthere
are toomany to listhere.
Q: How oftendo the assessmentcommitteesevaluate the certificate holders?
A: All enterprisesinIndonesiahave tohave the SVLK;it isa mandatorycertificate.Basedonthis
certificate,theycanalsoqualifyforthe FLEGT-VPA licence.SVLKusessurveillancetomonitorwhether
enterprisesare complyingwiththe regulations. Aftercertificatesare granted,bigindustriesare checked
annuallyandsmall industriesare checkedevery2years.
SVLK has beenharmonized tomeetthe requirementsof the EU. Anynew EU requestshave tobe
checkedtoensure thattheyare in accordance with Indonesia’s ownsystem.AsSVLKismandatory,
industries have tocomplywiththe regulationswhether they have acertificate ornot.If they can show
that youcomplythen they getthe certificate asrecognition.Inorderfora national certificate like SVLK
to holdany value,itmustbe recognizedbyothercountries.
Q: In regard to the SVLK scheme,the IndependentVerificationBodyhas the right to question
enterprises.Meanwhile,the AccreditationCommittee alsoevaluatesthe situation, as well as the
IndependentMonitors.Isn’tthis a big burdenfor the enterprisesto receive everyyear?
A: Thisisa necessarypartof ensuringthatSVLKfunctionseffectively.The checksthatthe Independent
Monitorsdo will be differenttowhatthe National AccreditationBodydoes.The IndependentMonitor
onlycheckswhenthere have beenreportsof some kindof illegal activitybyanenterprise,whereasthe
National AccreditationBodychecksevery2years.Thisshouldnotbe a burdenif anenterprise is
operatinglegally.
Q: If you receive signalsof a violationof the regulations,do you needto get permissionfromthe
governmentto go and check the premisesofthe enterprise involved?
A: There are many stakeholdersinvolvedincreatingthe systemsotheyare all aware of the monitoring
systemandthe regulations.Theyare all responsibleformaintainingdifferentelementsof thissystem.
Q: Can you share withus about the negotiationprocess that Indonesiaexperiencedandhow thiswas
communicatedto local people and CSOs? How did you raise awareness?
A: InIndonesia, representativesfromNGOs,CSOs,industries,andassessmentbodies were invited tobe
involvedinthe negotiationprocess. All stakeholderswere involvedinnegotiationswithcomplete
transparency. Startingwithtechnical meetingstoagree importantdetails, negotiations thenprogressed
up to differentlevelstonegotiate furtherand anyearlieragreements made were carried forward.For
example,JICmeetingsare conducted onalevel of more general understanding andare made easierby
the detailsalreadyagreeduponatthe earliertechnical meetings. While inthe high-level meetingsthere
are fewerparticipantsandtheycanchoose theirownapproachto negotiation,the substanceof these
negotiationsmustbe agreeduponbyall the associatedgroups beforehand.Thismeansthatthe
governmentcannotdecide tochange the regulationsof SVLKbyitself.Consistentcommunication
betweenthe differentgroupsinvolvedmustbe maintained,andtheymustdecide togetherif any
alterationsneedtobe made.
As negotiationsare takingplace andagreementsare beingmade,the challengeistodisseminate

10. 10
updatesat industryanddistrictlevel.Intermsof Indonesia’s communicationandawarenessraising
methodology, Indonesiaused twomainapproaches:
(1) Communicationthroughthe associationof timberindustry:Theyare responsiblefor
communicatingtotheirmembers.InIndonesia,itwasnotpossibletoconductmeetingsinall
the differentprovinces,but membersof the associationwere invitedtoJakartaprovince to
receive informationaboutthe progressof negotiations.
(2) Online communication:The SVLKwebsite wasusedtoinformthe general publicabout
negotiationsandanychangestothe progressof SVLKdevelopment.
Q: If companiesproduce timbersolelyfor the domesticmarket, do they still needto meetthe
requirementsordo theyonly apply to those who export timber?What about very small companies?
Can domesticenterprisesaffordit?
A: SVLKismandatoryfor all companieswhoproduce timberinIndonesia.Whethertheysell domestically
or exporttheyneedthe certificate.70%of Indonesia’sindustryismade upof small or medium
enterprisesandtheyare certifiedwiththe helpof state funds.Thesesmall enterprisescanalsoapplyfor
licencesasa groupin orderto save money.Inaddition,the validityof certificatesforsmallerenterprises
isfor 6 yearsand theyare checkedevery2 years,whereas licences forbigbusinessesare validforonly3
yearsand are subjecttoannual checks.
Q: Is there any support providedby the governmentfor technologyor machinery to helpindustriesto
improve their productionprocessesin order to meetthe certificate requirements?
A: There isstill space forimprovementinoursystem – VietnamandIndonesianeedtolearnfromeach
other. Indonesiacannotignore the factthatmore standardswill be introducedandmustremainaware
of this.InIndonesiathere are manyministriesrelatedtothe timberindustry.The Ministerof Industryis
part of the multi-stakeholdersandhe isresponsible forcapacitybuilding,providingassistance tothe
small andmediumindustries.But itmustbe remembered thattechnologyandlegalityare twoseparate
things.Everycompanyinvolvedin the timberindustryhashadtofollow timberregulationssince the
1980s so itis nota completelynewideaandcompaniesshouldbe able tomeetthe requirementsof
SVLKwithrelative ease asitisbasedon law.The onlynew burdenforindustriesisthattheynow need
to be able to convince the SVLKverifierthattheyare conductingtheirbusinesslegally.Again,the fact
that small industrieshave the optiontoapplyfora certificate inagroup makesthe processcheaper.

11. 11
Conclusions
The experiencesharingworkshopwasagreatsuccessinterms of informingthe Vietnamese participants
aboutthe possible approachesthatcanbe takenintheirongoingnegotiationsconcerningFLEGT-VPA.
Clearfromthe discussionatthe workshopwasthe Indonesianparticipants’confidence inthe agreement
that theyhad signedwiththe EU;althoughthe negotiationprocesswaslong,itwasfruitful asIndonesia
has become the firstcountryinthe worldto be issuedwithFLEGT-VPA licensing.Furthermore,the
workshopillustratedhownegotiationsinIndonesiawere amutual andco-operative effortbyanumber
of differentgroups andstakeholders,andthatthe governmentactedsimplyasa regulator. Itwas
essential thattheywere able tocompromiseandoperate withcomplete transparency.Asthe workshop
unfolded,the Indonesianparticipantsrepeatedlyclarifiedthe factthatSVLKis a mandatorycertificate
for all timberindustries,demonstratingthattheirsuccessisaresultof theirproactive approach to
preventingillegal loggingandtrade notjustin the EU, but worldwide.These are all valuablelessonsfor
Vietnamastheyprogresstowardsa FLEGT-VPA agreement;inordertosuccessfullyacceleratethis
process,there mustbe a commitmentbyall involvedparties notonly toVietnam’seconomicconcerns
but,more importantly, toimprovingthe global environmentandcommunity.