Interview with the winemaker Rafael Fernández, winemaker and founder of Irving wines

1. 1
Interview with Rafael Fernández
(Fernández Herrero Winery. Irving wines)
- The man-
Rafael Fernández gets off his car and greets me with an open smile saying he has
brought his wife, Luisa Herrero, from the vineyard, so she can enjoy the morning of this
sunny but cold day in their home village: Huéscar. Close and frank man, he always
keeps in mind his family and his wife to the point of using both surnames to baptise his
winery: Fernández-Herrero. As a civil engineer, he helped to relaunch Spain in Europe
in the sixties, when almost everything was to do.
During the conversation and then, in the lunch, I deduce he is open-minded,
progressive, very enterprising, lover of art, music, painting and, ¿why not?, wine, which
is considered to be an art by some people. This is the dream of a determined man who
over the years was developing it, polishing, refining as the wine becomes more refined
in bottle –sommeliers said-, until he found the moment and applied his wisdom –his
background and the new knowledge he insisted on learning- in order to offer us his
wines. He chose a name for them from an American author, deep-rooted in Granada:
Irving. Another of his stories could begin with these words...
La Sagra Range from the winery

2. 2
- The project-
- You are a renowned civil engineer. For what reason did you want to become a
winemaker?
- There is a perfect justification. Nearly my first job was to repair the Paternina
wineries, that José María Ruiz Mateos had built in Haro, La Rioja, when he
purchased the old Paternina wineries. For the first time in Spain large fermentation
deposits were made in those wineries. Apparently, they had some design problems
because, during the first harvest, the deposits cracked loosing wine. The owners
asked the CSIC (High Scientific Research Comittee) a report and CSIC requested it
to the Torroja Institute of Construction and Cement. I had worked for the Institute
since 1963 and that happened at the end of the sixties.
I was sent to Haro to check what had happened. I was in charge of that issue for a
year, the deposit reinforcement. It was the first time epoxy was used to waterproof. I
was several days a week there and became close friend with old Federico, who
worked at the old Paternina winery. Throughout that year he helped me to soak up
the system, the method of aging. So I began to have the “itch”.
- It was many years ago...
- And when I was about to retire, something happened. I was the Chairman of the
Association of Cement Producers. One of the producers was the Masaveu family,
one of the richest families in Spain. I found out that the Masaveu dedicated
themselves to the wine, among other many thing. They had a nice winery beside El
Ciego, La Rioja. We had a meeting of the Association Council at the winery, so he
showed it to me. He took me to another Alberiño winery in Galicia and we visited
one more, recently build, in Olite, Navarra. Thus, I turned into the wine world again.
Shortly afterwards, I celebrated a wedding here. One of the guests was a friend, a
builder who had just finished a winery in Requena. His son is a renowned enologist,
Toni Sarrión. They attended the wedding and told me: this area is very similar to
Requena, it’s a great location ¿why not planting wineyards? I told myself: now I am
retired, so I can take this opportunity to found a winery.
- ¿Which part of business has a winery? ¿And which part of adventure?
- This is absolutely ruinous –laughs-. I remember perfectly what Masaveu said to me:
Rafael, if you want to plant a vineyard, less than 200.000 bottles per year don’t even
tray it. That is too much –I answered-, I want it as a hobby. Well –he replied-, but
you must know that hobby will cost you money. Yes, indeed, all of this costs a lot of
money.
- ¿Are your children engaged in the project?
- No. Unfortunately, I think they aren’t.
- It’s a pity. The vineyard is young...

3. 3
- So I bought the property, tooking advantage of the old country house. I restored it
and built the winery.
The country house “Cortijo” El Duque
- The process of making the wine-
- ¿Is made the aging both in stainless steel deposits and barrels?
- No, the aging is made only in barrels. In the stainless steel deposits we make the
process of production and the malolactic fermentation. When the last one ends we
transfer the wine to remove the dregs, getting rid of the lees that remain at the
bottom. When the wine is rather stood and clarified, in february, we move it to the
barrels. There it remains for a year. At the end of this period, it is bottled. After a
year in the bottle it is sold.
- ¿Is the malolactic fermentation delicate, isn’t it?
- Well, the malolactic fermentation is a natural process that happens naturally. It is a
matter of time. If you doesn’t accelerate it, it could happen that the temperature
lowers avoiding this fermentation. It could be possible the next spring when the
temperature raises again within the winery. Now we try to seed bacteria to force the
malolactic fermentation before tranferring the wine to the barrels.
- ¿Are these wine ecological?

4. 4
- Completely ecological.. All the process is ecological, in the vineyard and the
winery. That is not appreciate commercially yet so, although we have the ecological
certification, we don’t put it on the bottles.
- I some areas it’s appreciated...
- Mainly abroad. But normally I haven’t volume to export. In Spain sometimes people
think an ecological wine is worse than a standard one.
Here we produce the wine. It’s a simple process. The grape harvest is handmade.
There is a selection at that moment, choosing only the best bunchs. The small ones
wiht unripe grapes aren’t be picked. Right after, the grapes are cooled in cold stores
to 5ºC. We begin the de-stemming process and the residue goes to the fermentation
deposits. I started to make the fermentation only with natural yeast but I had
problems some years, so, as a precaution, normally we add yeast to a guarantee a
continuous fermentation. We watch the temperature. All the deposits have covering
as you can see. Using water at 5ºC we keep the deposit temperature under 26ºC.
During the first days there is no fermentation. The grape has been deposited at 5ºC.
It takes a couple of days for reaching 17º or 18º, when fermentation begins. During
those days there is a dissolution of flavours and bouquet that gives a higher quality
to the wine.
The rest of the fermentation is made under 26º. When it finishes, we leave the wines
for aging several days more, depending on the enologist’s test. He decides if it’s
necessary one or two more weeks of soaking. Afterwards, we make the pressing to
remove the marc and we leave the wine for malolactic fermentation that lasts until
february, when it is transferred to the barrels.
- Has you always worked with the same enologist?
- In the beginning I worked with a female enologist who also was in Pago de
Almaraes winery. She left and I began working with César Ortega, from the
Alpujarra area, from Cádiar. He is in charge of another winery there: Los Barrancos.
Well, to tell the truth, in the first years I made the wine myself. When I started with
the winery I studied at the best worldwide University regarding wines: Davis,
California. A funny secret: the wines I made myself got better scores than the wines
made by the enologists –laughs-.
- Which of your four grape varieties provides more benefits?
- I don’t calculate that, but when there is a good harvest, it seems the best wine is the
syrah. Peñín’s Guide gives it the best score. I haven’t achieved more than 90 points
for tempranillo o cabernet and syrah gets 91/92 points.
- That score is very good. It is important for the winery...
- When he began it was difficult to reach 90 points. According to Peñín’s Guide the
selection of best Spanish wines included the wines above 90 points. Now the
outlook has improved so much that the selection is made with wines above 95

5. 5
points. From 90 to 95 there are a great amount. Spanish wine quality has improved a
lot.
Stainless steels deposits with covering to control the temperature
- That can be one of the incentives to go on with this adventure you has made clear
that it isn’t strictly commercial. There is a great competition. In Spain there are
many wineries.
- Spain only consumes half of the wine that is produced. The another half is sold. We
must export that half. Pay attention to the domestic competition. Moreover,
international market undergoes the competition of other countries with lower costs
of production.: South Africa, Chile, Australia.

6. 6
- However, the process isn’t the same. Many wines stay very little in barrel, getting its
aging tahnkk to the wood chips.
- For sure. In these countries the Protected Denomination of Origin aren’t so strict.
They say more or less: make the wine as you like.
Oak barrels with annotation of variety and vineyard
- Then, it will be difficult to export. Do you dedicate part of the production to export?
- We export very little. We carry out a “drill of exportation” because we export 2000
bottles. I have two daughters living abroad, in USA and Switzerland/ France. They
ask me one or two pallets a year for the restaurants and for their friends. That’s all.
- Is the name, Irving, a wise choice to export to USA? It must be a familiar name.
- I thought so because of Washington Irving. But my daughter told me: don’t think it,
Irving is a Jewish surname, so non-jewish people don’t like it. And for the Jewish
people the wine must be kosher. I cannont sell Irving to Jewish people and the rest
don’t purchase it for its Jewish name –laughs-.
- Do you expect to plant more vineyards?

7. 7
- Not by now.
- After a year in barrel, the wine is transferred to the bottle for the aging. The bottles
are stored in horizontal big cages. The cages are opened at the top to fill them easily.
Then we turn them over with a machine outside. If not, itu would be difficult to
move 600 kg.
Big cages for aging in bottles
- Now there are sudden temperatura changes. How do they affect the grape?
- The climate change. It can affect this way: traditional areas that produce quality
wines can get worse because of heating. Cooler areas, like this, that were at the
border, are now safer with the temperature increase.
- And the rain? This year it’s raining nothing.
- The last year was bad. We don’t know yet how this year is going to be. The rain is
necessary mainly in spring and then a little befores the complete ripening. We need
some storms in summer. It’s soon to know it. The last year the harvest was the half
that in other years.
- Are you currently the President of the Protected Geograpical Indication Quality
wines of Granada?
- No, not yet. I has been the President for a short time.

8. 8
- Is it important? What tasks does the PGI carries out?
Rafael Fernández explaining the secrets of his winery to María Córdoba
- There is a good competition among the winemakers of the region, although they
have to work together facing other regions. Granada usually hast the problem of
higher price per bottle regarding other areas, so the promotion is essential. Do you
aspire to become Protected Denomination of Origin?
- The Protected Geographical Indication Quality wines of Granada is the previous
step to achieve the complete protection. I applied for it as President. The dossier was
submitted, we didn’t obtain any response though. Due to the silence procedure we
had to submit it again, so we are waiting for the answer to achieve the total PDO.
- Is it difficult to achieve?
- First of all, there is a requirement of time. It’s necessary to stay in the first level,
Traditional Speciality Guaranteed, what regarding wines is calle Local Wines. After
five years if the Regional Administration consider that everything works properly:
the quality is good, there is enough volume of production, you can apply for passing
to the second level: Quality Wines. In this step it’s the same process: a five years
term and the positive evaluation of the Administration. After this second period it’s
necessary a new application, new regulations with new requirements. If it’s
approved, you get the complete protection. We can get it at any moment.

9. 9
As you can see here, the last step, after a year in the bottle, the wine goes to the
labelling machine. The bottles are put in boxes and introduce to the market.
- Did you have a serious problem some year, I mean, a harvest went to ruin?
- Yes, every year we have problems. This year, our best grape, the syrah, has got
ruined. When the enologist came to do the last tasting, fifty days ago he said: these
syrah deposits are wrong, they are useless.
- Something so handmade...
- For that reason the wine of each year is never exactly the same. It depends on the
production, the varieties. The coupage changes. It would be a miracle two identical
wines. The sommeliers come at the time of bottling. The blends are made with the
different varieties, even different barrels. Each barrel is marked with: not bad, good,
very good. According to that they make the blends.
- Are the barrels made of American oak?
- We have three types: American oak of Finesse brand, an Hungarian brand and
Allied’s oak.
French oak barrel
- Does the winery receive any support from the Administration?
- No, nought.
- How is the relationship with the Regional Administration?

10. 10
- The Administration has supported the commercial campaigns, the marketing, the
presence in certain events, shows. The Junta de Andalucía paid half of the events
organized by Quality Wines of Granada.
- Attending the shows like FENAVIN.
- Right. If the campaigns costed 400.000 eur. per year, the Junta paid 200.000 eur.
(Rafael Fernández show us another wine cellar located in a close building)
- Here, I have the laboratory for the enologists... and more nniches for the aging in
bottles.
Niches for the aging in bottles
- How many people work here in the harvest season?
- During that period there are fifteen people. The rest of the year we have two
employees.
- Anyway it’s important for the fairly depressed economy of the region. The wineries
can be a good choice.
- Here there are the enologist’s “junks”.

11. 11
- They are chemists obviously. Rafael, when you take some wine, apart from yours,
which is your favourite wine?
- As I am winemaker, what I always try is taking wine saying to myself: What are the
wines of the area and what wine do you recommend me as the best ones? For
example, the last wine I drank is called something like “Pegaso”. I don’t know the
area. I was having lunch with Peñín and he told me: I’m going to ask for a wine you
haven’t tasted. Come on, let’s ask for it –I answered. He asked the Pegaso and I liket
it a lot. A wine with garnacha grape that was fine. At the end they didn’t charge us
too much money, 39 eur for the bottle. Peñín told me that wine had a 94/95 score in
his guide.
I try to discover new wines from new areas. I do the opposite that people who
always take Ribera o Rioja. I usually don’t drink Ribera o Rioja.
- I am also as weird as that –laughs-
- Those are awards. This one, in Huetor Vega, I was given the prize to the best wine
of all rankings. The wine with the best score, year 2007. You asked me for the
ecological wine. Here it’s the ecological agriculture certification for all our varieties.
Ecological agriculture certification

12. 12
- Although it’s said in wine circles that there is an award for each wine, those are
indeed interesting prizes.
The Iberwine awards are important because, unlike other awards that give gold
medals to 30% of the wines submitted to competition, in this contest there are only
three prizes: a gold medal, a silver medal and a bronze one. This is the silver medal,
the second best wine among 300 wineries from 20 countries...
Silver medal Iberwine awards
-The tasting-
- Do you like tasting any wine from this year? So you could appreciate the progress of
this year’s harvest. Luismi, please, take a jug. We are going to taste it upstairs. Here
it’s a bit cold. Bring us the 2015 one, that is now under production. Which is the
enologist’s favourite? Tempranillo or cabernet?
- I see in the barrel it’s written the variety and the vineyard.
- Yes, variety and origin.
(Back inside the house)
- Luismi told us the cellar temperature is usually 16º-18ºC. Today it seems to be 12º
or 14º.
- It usually varies from 13º to 19º C. Right now it must be 13º C –laughs-
- You know José Peñín as you have commented. Did he came to the winery?

13. 13
- Yes, José Peñín loves this winery.
- Can a winery produce a wine out of the Denomination standards?
- Yes, of course, but not with the same name. I can produce Irving within the
Denomination and release another wine naming it Duque, Torralba, Cubero... out of
the Protected Denomination.
- The cabernet still has a fruit flavour: strawberry, raspberry.
- That is what we are looking for.
- The contemporary trend is that a wine ages in barrel but with hardly vestige.
- My friend Peñín, who is an enthusiastic of the plantation and the winery says we are
going to make a fantastic wine with our syrah. Hopefully. And I told him: heavens!
You could also like the cabernet, the tempranillo –laughs-.
- Request him to save points for that moment –laughs-. During these so hot summers
do the wine degrees shoot up? The wine can reach 15ºC, nearly 16ºC.
- Here we have to be careful, so we check it when it’s close to 14,5º. Some year the
merlot went to 15ºC.
(We all rinse the cups off)
Antonio: These are the habits of the sommeliers, not to drain the wine.
Rafael: the sommeliers even don’t drink it.
Antonio: right, don’t invite a sommelier to your house because he will spit the wine –
laughs-
Rafael: let me see how you find this tempranillo. I find it a bit sweeter, maybe the
tannins a little rougher than in the cabernet. Perhaps a bit less fruity. Let’s see María’s
opinion.
María: yest, less fruity, at least on nose.
Rafael: I find it a bit less fruity, sweeter and a bit rougher. That’s would be my
evaluation.
María: yes, sweeter but maybe not rougher
Rafael: do you find it as rough as the other?
María: the cabernet has more tannicity right now. The tempranillo is a bit spicier, but
the cabernet has more tannicity. Anyway it has a very good flavour. From these wines
it’s going to turn out a very interesting coupage.

14. 14
Rafael: well, the wines we make are interesting... After a year in barrel, they change a
lot. I like to sell them after two years in bottle. María, what more do you want to taste?
María: what about syrah 2014? Is it bottled yet?
Rafael: we are in the process. We are bottling it to leave the barrels free for the 2015
wine.
Tasting 2015 wines
Bruno: I still have some bottles of the special edition you made for my wedding. I got
married in 2006. The wine must we from 2005.
- So you have to drink them inmediately –we said all at once-
Bruno: I have kept them because of the label. In a flat my father in law owns, we found
several boxes of Paternina. They had been there for years. We couldn’t even remove the
cork.
María: taht is the first thing one learns that many wine consumers don’t know. Although
there are wine made to be kept, the wine must be taken relatively soon. At home one
hasn’t the best conditions to keep it.

15. 15
(Tasting 2014 syrah)
Vineyard of syrah close to the winery
María: it has a lovely colour
Rafael: it lacks all the bottle period but it’s noticeable that it’s syrah.
María: the scent is distinctive.
Rafael: the syrah typical scent and favour.
María: this wine will be very good after aging in bottle.

16. 16
Rafael: regarding distinguishing varieties and wines, in one occasion I played a dirty
trick on professional sommeliers and winemakers. I gathered them and told them: do
you dare to do a blind tasting? I offered them the Reserva 904 from Rioja Alta, a
fantastic wine, a Priorat –I don’t remember which- and Irving 2005. Two great,
outstanding wines and my Irving 2005, “rubbish”.
María: you set it to fight as Antonio López de la Casa, Fontedei’s enologist says.
Rafael: I thought this wine was going to look awful.. However, scoring from 0 to 100,
the Priorat got 92, Irving got 90 and the Rioja Alta scored 88. So I said: Heavens!! How
is it possible? It looked fairly tied –laughs-.
María: and regarding wines from Granada?
Rafael: I appreciate the quality of Calvente, specially the white wines. Fontedei’s white
wines are very good and also Mencal is. On the other hand, the red wines, Muñana,
Spira (the Marquis’ winery), Irving, some Vertijana and a little more.
María: Pago de Almaraes, the last ones are not bad
Rafael: I haven’t been pleased with the red Pago de Almaraes wines.
María: Neither have I with Señorío de Nevada ones.
Rafael: we agree, I don’t like them either.
María: they are renowned, the first ones made by the enologist who came from France...
And the wine tourism too.
Rafael: Yes, I must admit they have got it good.
María: and the Nestares Rincón I tasted in the winery... it seemed not to be well
preserved. The bottle I carried out was better though.
Antonio: María is still developing as sommelier, but she has a good taste. In many
occasions she says: this wine is good. And then we wee this wine scores high in
different guides.
María: that’s true. After a show like FENAVIN, I checked my notes to ask for a wine I
liked... and the wine costed more than 30 eur... I’am afraid not -laughs-.
Rafael: recently, I was charged 15 eur for our young red. We sell it for 4 eur and they
multiply by three.
María: does the main part of the production go to bars and restaurants?
Rafael: yes, it does.
María: its presence in restaurants is becoming more and more frequent. I have found it
at a pizzeria. Comparing with a lambrusco, Irving is better by far.

17. 17
Rafael: Italian people are masters selling rubbish.
María: n the Tasting School of Madrid, Carmen Garrobo told me: the beaujolais
nouveau is the “merdre” of France and lambrusco is the “merde” of Italy and they
both are sold easily.
Rafael: right. I hadn’t tasted the Beaujolais nouveau. When I took a Frech wine I tasted
some chatteau from Bordeaux or Burgundy, very expensive –laughs-
María: and they abused the aging in barrel.
Rafael: when I tasted the Beaujolais noveau for the first time I told myself: this is worst
than the local wine from my village!
María: but the marketing is incredible.
Rafael: yes, they do it worldwide. They release it all over the world: Le Beaujolais
nouveau est arrivé!
María: It is sold a lot in South America. For example in Mexico it’s sold at high price.
They perform the Burial of the sardine when it is sold out.
Rafael: it is the table wine but worse, much worse.
María: considering the intermediate prices, Spanish wine has no reason to envy anyone
French or European wine.
Rafael: there are lucky winemakers. For the second time “damn” Parker considers
Pruno as the best wine in the world regarding quality-cost relationship. Three years ago
he also considered it the best. They sold all the production in a week.
María: it is said that Parker has an special weakness for Ribera’s wines. The start of
Ribera was partly due to Parker. Before that, it was far below Rioja.
Bruno: At street level, in bars, it is more asked Ribera than Rioja.
María: from Madrid to the North not so much. The Ribera’s consume is about 19% and
Rioja’s consume is 40%. There is a great difference. In the South people take more
Tibera, it’s true. Peñín is well known in Spain, but abroad...
Rafael: worldwide it must be Parker
María: who, curiously, give higher scores.
Rafael: Normally two points more. I have it checked.

18. 18
And so the interview was becoming a nice conversation that went on during the
luch when we all (the three childhood friends, Rafael, Luisa, Bruno and us) talked about
education, music, theather, wines, latin, the old times... but that’s another story.