- Throughout the 20th century, both classical and jazz music became increasingly complex and niche, appealing to smaller audiences as general public interest declined. - Wynton Marsalis and Herbie Hancock discuss innovations in classical (serialism, chance music, minimalism) and jazz (bebop, free jazz) and their effects on audiences and musicians' motivations. - Marsalis believes jazz musicians must learn tradition while Hancock emphasizes creativity; they disagree on the role of technique versus emotion but respect each other's accomplishments.

1. MUS Infomal Writing
Throughout the latter half of the 20th century, both avant-garde classical and jazz music
saw a trend of getting increasingly esoteric: composers and musicians tended to court
smaller, more specialist audiences, while the general public's interest in these genres waned
precipitously. Briefly compare the innovations in classical music (like serialism, chance
music, and/or minimalism) with the innovations in jazz (like bebop and free-jazz). Consider
motivations on the part of the musicians, as well as the effects on audiences.300 words
required
Requirements: 300
Source: Rafi Zabor and Vic Garbarini, "Wynton Vs. Herbie: ThePurist and the Crossbreeder
Duke It Out," Musician 77 (March1985), pp. 52-64.ENERGETIC, ARTICULATE, AND
MUSICALLY impressive, WyntonMarsalis brings considerable weight to the contention that
jazz issuperior to other popular musical genres, and to a narrow, bebop-centered view of
the jazz tradition. As forcefully opinionated as heusually is, though, Marsalis was brought up
short a few times duringthis joint interview with keyboardist Herbie Hancock (b. 1940).
ForMarsalis, free jazz, electric instruments, and pop influences blur thattradition's
boundaries and dilute its artistic force. For Hancock, theseare all vital resources for the
creative musician. But despiteHancock's interest in other genres, his credentials as a
virtuosicbebopper are beyond reproach, making arguments about the musicallimitations of
pop musicians tricky. Years earlier, handing the youngtrumpeter one of his first big breaks,
Hancock had invited Marsalis totour with him, bassist Ron Carter, and drummer Tony
Williams-thelegendary rhythm section that had backed Miles Davis in the 1960s.So Marsalis
is in a bind: while he does not respect what Hancockrespects, he cannot help respecting
Hancock.
In this interview for Musician magazine (moderated by journalistsRafi Zabor and Vic
Garbarini), each musician reveals much about hisvalues, goals, and musical training. Their
disagreements areinstructive, reminding us of the many consequences of how we
thinkabout jazz's past and future. Both musicians are principled andpassionate. For
Marsalis, "black music is being broken down"; forHancock, the more walls come down, the
better.MUSICIAN: We don't want to get you guys into an argument.HANCOCK: Oh, we won't,
we never argue.MARSALIS: I would never argue with Herbie.MUSICIAN: I'll tell what we
want to start with. Is there a necessity forany young player, no matter how brilliant he is, to
work his waythrough a tradition?MARSALIS: That's a hard question to answer. When we
deal withanything that's European, the definitions are clear cut. But with ourstuff it all

2. comes from blues, so "it's all the same." So that'll implythat if I write an arrangement, then
my arrangement is on thesame level as Duke Ellington. But to me it's not the same. So
whatI'm trying to determine is this terminology. What is rock `n' roll?What does jazz mean,
or R&B? Used to be R&B was justsomebody who was black, in pop music they are white.
Now weknow the whole development of American music is so steeped inracist tradition
that it defines what we're talking about.MUSICIAN: Well there's the Berklee School of Music
approach,where you learn technique. And some people would say, "Well, aslong as it's
coming from the heart, it doesn't matter abouttechnique."MARSALIS: That is the biggest
crock of bullshit in the history ofmusic, that stuff about coming from the heart. If you are
trying tocreate art, the first thing is to look around and find out what's
meaningful to you. Art tries to make life meaningful, soautomatically that implies a certain
amount of emotion. Anybodycan say "I have emotion." I mean, a thousand trumpet players
hadsoul and emotion when they picked up trumpets. But they weren'tall Louis Armstrong.
Why?HANCOCK: He was a better human being.MARSALIS: Because Louis Armstrong's
technique was better.MUSICIAN: Is that the only thing, though?MARSALIS: Who's to say that
his soul was greater than anybodyelse's? How can you measure soul? Have any women left
him, didhe eat some chicken on Saturday night? That's a whole socialviewpoint of what
payin' dues is. So Duke Ellington shouldn't havebeen great because by definition of dues he
didn't really gothrough as much as Louis Armstrong, so naturally his pianoplaying didn't
have the same level of soul. Or Herbie wasn'tsoulful, either. Because when he was coming
up, black peopledidn't have to eat out of frying pans on Friday nights.MUSICIAN: Well, one
of the ways of judging soulfulness, as you say,is suffering. But it's not the only
way.MARSALIS: I read a book [by James Lincoln Collier] where a cat saidthat "in 1920-
something we notice that Louis Armstrong's playingtook on a deeper depth of emotion.
Maybe that's because hismother died." What brings about soulfulness is realization.
That'sall. You can realize it and be the richest man in the world. You canbe someone living
in the heart of Harlem in the most deprivedsituation with no soul at all. But the social
scientists . . . oh, soul.That's all they can hear, you know. Soul is part of technique.Emotion is
part of technique. Music is a craft, man.HANCOCK: External environment brings fortune or
misfortune. Bothof them are means to grow. And that's what soul is about: the
growth or, as Wyn ton said, realization. To realize how to take thatexperience and to find
the depth of that experience in your life. Ifyou're able to do that, then everything becomes
fortune.MARSALIS: The thing that makes me most disgusted is that a lot ofguys who write
about the music don't understand the musicians.People have the feeling that jazz is an
expression of depression.What about Louis Armstrong? To me, his thing is an expression
ofjoy. A celebration of the human condition.HANCOCK: Or the other concept is somebody
who, out of hisignorance and stupidity, dances and slaps his sides. No concept ofintelligence,
focus, concentration . . . and the study, the concern.Even the self-doubt and conflict that goes
into the art of playingjazz.Look, I didn't start off playing jazz. I hated jazz when I firstheard
it. It sounded like noise to me. I was studying classicalmusic, and at the same time, going to
an all-black grammarschool. I heard groups like the Ravens. But I really didn't havemany
R&B records. I was like a little nerd in school.MARSALIS: Well, I don't know about
that.HANCOCK: Jazz finally made an impression on me when I saw a guywho was my age

3. improvising. I thought that would be impossiblefor somebody my age, thirteen or fourteen,
to be able to createsome music out of his head.I was a classical player, so I had to learn jazz
the way anyclassical player would. When it came to learning what one feelsand hears as
soulful nuances in the music, I actually had to learnthat technically.MARSALIS: That's
interesting, because I did it the opposite way.When you put out Headhunters and Thrust,
Branford and I listenedto those albums, but we didn't think it was jazz. My daddy would
play jazz, but I was like, Hey, man, I don't want to hear this shit. Igrew up in New
OrleansKenner, Louisiana, actually, a countrytown. All I ever did was play "When the Saints"
and stuff. I couldn'treally play, I had no technique. So when I came to high school,everybody
else could play the trumpet and I was the saddest one.The first record I heard was [John
Coltrane's] Giant Steps. Mydaddy had all those records, but I never would listen to them.
Whylisten to jazz, man?HANCOCK: None of your friends were playing it?MARSALIS: None of
the people I knew. You couldn't get no womenplaying jazz! Nobody had a philosophy about
what life wassupposed to be about. We didn't have a continuum. I neverlistened to Miles or
Herbie. I didn't even know you played withMiles, until I was sixteen. Then when I started
listening to jazz, Iwould only listen to a certain type. Only bebop. So I can relate tostarting
from a fan-type approach. But when you play music,you're going to play the way you
are.MUSICIAN: What about your statement at the Grammys?MARSALIS: It was very obvious
what I was saying.HANCOCK: I have to congratulate you on that. You implied that therewas
good music and music that was in bad taste. Everybodywondered, "What music is he
referring to?"MARSALIS: Listen, the only statement I made was that we're trying toelevate
pop music to the level of art. Not just in music. Pop culture.Pop anything. I have nothing
against pop music. I listen to theradio. I'm not saying people should listen to jazz or buy
jazzrecords, or even know the music. Just understand what the musicis about, because the
purpose and the function of pop music istotally different from jazz.
HANCOCK: A few people that have interviewed me have asked me ifthe statement that he
made was directed against what I wasdoing. That never dawned on me.MARSALIS: I wasn't
even thinking about that.MUSICIAN: A lot of people do think that.MARSALIS: People think
I'm trying to say jazz is greater than popmusic. I don't have to say that, that's obvious. But I
don't eventhink about it that way. The two musics say totally different things.Jazz is not pop
music, that's all. Not that it's greater. . . . I didn'tmean it was obvious.HANCOCK: That's your
opinion, which is fine. Now you're making astatement of fact.MUSICIAN: So is classical
music "greater" than jazz?MARSALIS: Hell no, classical music is a European idiom.
Americahas a new cultural identity. And the ultimate achievement for anyculture is the
creation of an art form. Now, the basic element of ourart form is the blues, because an art
form makes life meaningful.Incidentally, I would like to say-and I hope you will print this-
classical music is not white music. When Beethoven was writingmusic, he wasn't thinking
white or black. Those terms becamenecessary in America when they had to take white
artists andmake them number one because they couldn't accept black artists.We constantly
have historical redefinitions to take the artisticcontributions out of the hands of people who
were designatedblack. The root of the colloquial stuff throughout the whole worldnow
comes out of the U.S. Negro's lifestyle.MUSICIAN: Is there something in some of the
rootforms of this musicthat has a certain inner strength?

4. MARSALIS: People don't know what I'm doing basically, becausethey don't understand
music. All they're doing is reacting to whatthey think it remotely sounds like.We don't have
to go back to the sixties. Beethoven didn't haveto go back to Haydn. We never hear that.
What they say is, Well,Beethoven is an extension of Haydn. Everybody has to do that-
Stravinsky, Bartok. But in European music people have a culturalcontinuum. And our music
is just, "Well, what is the next newNegro gonna think up out of the blue sky that's gonna
beinnovative?" Ornette Coleman sounds like Bird; he was playingrhythm changes on "The
Shape of jazz to Come." Have I everread that by anybody reviewing those albums? No. Why?
Becausethey don't know what rhythm changes sound like. So they'regonna write a review
on what I'm doing and I'm supposed to say,"That's cool."HANCOCK: When you first asked
the question, I heard it assensitively as he heard it. `Cause I said to myself, "He's
sayingWynton is going back to play the sixties-style of music in 1984."MUSICIAN: We all
agreed apparently at one point that jazz was moremeaningful, in some sense, than pop
music. Since you work in thetwo idioms, what do you feel is different?HANCOCK: Wait a
minute. I don't agree. Let me address myself tothat. When we have life, we have music.
Music can be manifest inmany different forms, and as long as they all have purpose,
theyshouldn't be pitted against each other as one being moreimportant than the other.
That's stupid. That's like apples andoranges.MUSICIAN: All right, you're doing both. What's
the difference in thequality of the experience with each kind of music?HANCOCK: Let me tell
you how I started getting my feet wet with popmusic. When I got into high school and
started getting into jazz, I
didn't want to hear anything else but classical music and jazz. NoR&B, nothing, until I heard
James Brown's "Papa's Got a BrandNew Bag." Later on, when I heard [Sly and the Family
Stone's]"Thank You Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin," it just went to my core. Ididn't know what
he was doing, I mean, I heard the chorus but,how could he think of that? I was afraid that
that was something Icouldn't do. And here I am, I call myself a musician. It botheredme.
Then at a certain point I decided to try my hand at funk, whenI did Headhunters. I was not
trying to make a jazz record. And itcame out sounding different from anything I could think
of at thetime. But I still wasn't satisfied because in the back of my head Iwanted to make a
funk record.I had gotten to the point where I was so directed toward alwaysplaying
something different that I was ignoring the validity ofplaying something that was familiar.
Visually I symbolize it as:There's the space from the earth up to somewhere in the sky, thenI
was going from the sky up to somewhere further up in the sky.And this other thing from the
earth up to the sky I was kind ofignoring. And so one thing about pop music that I've
discovered isthat playing something that's familiar or playing the same solo youplayed
before has no negative connotations whatsoever. What'snegative is if it doesn't sound, each
time, like it's the first time youplayed it. Now, that's really difficult for me to do. Take Wah
WahWatson, for example. He's not a solo player, he's a rhythm player.But he used to play a
little solo on one tune and it would be thesame solo every night. And every night he would
get a biggerhand than I would. And every night it was the same notes but itsounded fresh.
So my lesson was to try to learn to play somethingwithout change, and have it sound fresh
and meaningful.MARSALIS: I look at music different from Herbie. I played in a funkband. I
played the same horn parts every night all through highschool. We played real funk tunes

5. like Parliament Funkadelic,authentic funk. It wasn't this junk they're trying to do now to
gettheir music played on white radio stations. Now, to play the Haydn
Trumpet Concerto is a lot different from playing "Give Up the Funk"or "Mothership
Connection." I dig "Mothership Connection," but tome what pop music is trying to do is
totally different. It's reallygeared to a whole base type of sexual thing. I listen to the radio.
Iknow tunes that they have out now: here's people squirm ing onthe ground, fingering
themselves. It's low-level realizations of sex.Now, to me, music to stimulate you is the music
that has all theroot in the world in it, but is trying to elevate that, to elevate thepeople to a
certain level rather than go down.HANCOCK: It's not like that, Wynton. If it were, it would
just stay thesame. Why would the music change?MARSALIS: Because they get new
computers. You tell me, what'sthe newest thing out that you've heard?HANCOCK: Okay,
Prince, let's take that.MARSALIS: What is the tune "Purple Rain"? Part of it is like a
littleblues. I've got the record, I listen to it all the time. The guitar solo isa rehash of some
white rock.MUSICIAN: It's a rehash of Hendrix, too.MARSALIS: Well, I'm not gonna put that
on his head because he cando stuff Hendrix never thought of doing, which a lot of people
wantto overlook just to cut him down and say he sounds like Hendrix.You can print that if
you talk about him. But there's no way you canget new in that type of music because the
message will always bethe same.HANCOCK: There are songs that have a lot of musical
episodes. Isaw Rick Springfield's video. I don't care if he's got a badreputation. I heard some
harmonic things that were really nice.MARSALIS: You can get the newest synthesizers, but
that music'llonly go to a certain level. I'm not saying that's negative.
MUSICIAN: In a sense you're describing what Herbie's doing.MARSALIS: He knows what
he's doing, right? [laughs]HANCOCK: It's not true because I know. You mention
drummachines. There are examples of pop music today using drummachines specifically in
a very automated way. Automation doesn'timply sex to me at all. It's the opposite of
sex.MARSALIS: But that's not what we're talking about.HANCOCK: You said the music is
about one thing, and it's about sex.And I'm saying it's not just about that.MARSALIS: We
don't even want to waste our time discussing thatbecause we know that that's what it's
about.HANCOCK: If you name specific things, I would certainly agree withyou. If you say
dancing is about sex, I would agree with you, too.But I think you're using some false
ammunition.MUSICIAN: In most of the world's traditions sex is both connectedwith the
highest creative aspects and then can be taken to thelowest basic-MARSALIS: That's what
I'm saying. What direction you want to gowith it and which level it's marketed on. When I
see stuff likevideos with women looking like tigers roaming through the jungle,you know,
women playing with themselves, which is cool, man, butto me that's the high school point of
view. The problem I have iswhen people look at that and start using terms like "new video
artwith such daring concepts."A lot of stuff in our society is racially oriented, too. I read
aquote from Herbie. He said, "I heard that people from MTV wereracist oriented and I didn't
want to take any chances, so when I didmy video I made sure they didn't focus on me and
that some of the
robots' faces were white." That somebody like him would have tomake a statement like that.
. . .MUSICIAN: That is a heavy statement.MARSALIS: But what he's saying is true. Maybe they
wouldn't haveplayed his video. And what pisses me off is the arrogance ofpeople whose

6. whole thing is just a blatant imitation of thenegroidal tradition. Blatant. And even the major
exponents of thistype of music have said that themselves. And they'll have thearrogance and
the audacity to say, "Well, we just gonna play whitepeople's videos." How am I supposed to
relate to that?MUSICIAN: On the other hand, "Rockit" won five video awards. Itpartly broke
open MTV; there are now more black acts on. Andnow kids in the heartland who have never
heard black music arebeginning to hear it. It's probably because of what you did.MARSALIS:
They're still not hearing it. Black music is being brokendown. It's no longer black music.
This is not a discussion orargument. You get the Parliament records and the EW&F
[Earth,Wind & Fire] and the James Brown, the Marvin Gaye, and youlisten. What I hear now
is just obvious rock `n' roll elements likeLed Zeppelin. If people want to do that, fine. If they
want to sellmore records, great. What I'm saying is, that's reaffirmation ofprejudice to me. If
bending over is what's happening, I'm going tobend over.MUSICIAN: Is there another side?
What do you think, Herbie?MARSALIS: Well, Wynton is not an exponent of the idea
thatblending of musical cultures is a good thing.MARSALIS: Because it's an imitation of the
root. It loses rootsbecause it's not a blending. It's like having sex with your daughter.
HANCOCK: Okay, let me say this because this is something that Iknow. Up until recently a
black artist, even if he felt rock 'n' roll likeMick Jagger, couldn't make a rock `n' roll record.
Because themedia actually has set up these compartments that the racists fitthings into. You
can hear elements of rock from black artists.MARSALIS: You don't just hear elements. What
I hear in them isblatant, to the point of cynicism.HANCOCK: Okay, okay. I'm not disagreeing.
I know that there havebeen black artists that have wanted to do different kinds of
musicthan what the R&B stations would play. That to me is moreimportant, the fact that we
can't do what we want to.MARSALIS: I'm agreeing with you, everybody should do what
theywant to do. But what's happening is, our vibe is being lost. I seethat in movies. I see it
on television. What you have now is whiteguys standing up imitating black guys, and black
guys sitting backand looking at an imitation of us saying, "Ohhh . . ." with awe intheir faces.
You have black children growing up with Jehri curlstrying to wear dresses, thinking about
playing music that doesn'tsound like our culture.MUSICIAN: Does Herbie "hear" what he's
doing?MARSALIS: Herbie hears what Herbie plays. But a lot of that musicHerbie is not
writing. And when Herbie is playing, he's gonnamake the stuff sound like Herbie playin'
it.HANCOCK: Let me explain something about "Rockit." If you're ablack artist doing some
forms of pop music, which "Rockit" is, youhave to get on black radio and become a hit. And if
you get in thetop twenty in black radio-or urban contemporary they call it now[laughter]-
anyway, if it's considered crossover material, then at thatpoint the record company will try
to get the rock stations to play it.And so I said to myself, "How can I get this record exposed
as
quickly to the white kids as to the black kids?" So the video was ameans to an
end.MUSICIAN: Did it bother you, having to make that decision?HANCOCK: I didn't care
about being in the video. I don't care aboutbeing on the album cover of my record. It's not
important to me.Why should I have to be in my own video? [Marsalis winces]MUSICIAN:
But why shouldn't you? I mean, it's your video.HANCOCK: That was not an issue with me.
I'm not on the cover ofmost of my records. What I care about is whether the cover
looksgood or not. I wanted the video to be good. That's the first thing.The second thing I

7. said: Now, how am I gonna get on there,because I want to get my record heard by these
kids?MUSICIAN: Can't you see this strategy is a way of breakingsomething in?MARSALIS: If
you cheese enough, they'll make you President.HANCOCK: I wasn't cheesing. I was trying to
get heard.MUSICIAN: He broke open the medium, partially.MARSALIS: Michael Jackson
broke the medium open. Let's get thatstraight. What's amazing to me is that [Herbie's] thing
was used byall the cats that were doing break dancing.HANCOCK: There were three things
against it. First of all, no vocals.Secondly, that kind of music wasn't even getting any airplay
at thattime. Third thing is my name.MARSALIS: Right. But the only thing that I hate, the only
thing thatdisgusts me about that is I've seen Herbie's thing on Solid Gold as"New Electronic"
type of jazz or something. I mean, it's a pop tune,man. Our whole music is just going to
continue to be
misunderstood. You have to understand that people who hearabout me, they don't listen to
the music I play. If I have girlfriends,they don't listen to what I'm playing. They don't care.
They onlyknow Wynton as an image. Or Wynton, he's on the Grammys, hehas a suit on. So
their whole thing is media oriented. I'm notaround a lot of people who listen to jazz or
classical music, forgetthat! I did a concert and people gave me a standing ovation beforeI
walked onto the stage. But in the middle of the first piece theywere like [nods off] . . . so that
lets you know right there what'shappening.MUSICIAN: Is this a black audience?MARSALIS:
Black people. Yeah, this is a media thing, youunderstand. I'm talking to people who are in
the street.HANCOCK: I understand what you're talking about, about blackartists with Jehri
curls and now with the long hair. And I don't meanthe Rastas, either. . . .MARSALIS: Well,
check it out. Even deeper than that, Herbie, iswhen I see brothers and sisters on the TV. I see
black athletes,straining to conform to a type of personality that will allow them toget some
more endorsements. What disturbs me is it's the bestpeople. When somebody is good, they
don't have to do that. I wasso happy when Stevie's album came out. I said, Damn, finally
wegot a groove and not somebody just trying to cross over into somerock `n' roll.HANCOCK:
I understand what you mean about a certain type ofgroove, like this is the real R&B, and so
forth. But I can't agree thatthere's only one way we're supposed to be playing. I have faith
inthe strength of the black contribution to music, and that strength isalways going back to
the groove, anyway. After a while certainthings get weeded out. And the music begins to
evolve again.MARSALIS: Now, check out what I'm saying-
HANCOCK: No, `cause you've talked a lot-MARSALIS: Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry,
man.HANCOCK: [laughter] Give me a break! I've never been on aninterview with you, so I
didn't know how it was. Wowww! Iunderstand what you're saying, but I have faith that
whatever'shappening now is not a waste of time. It's a part of growth. It maybe a transition,
but transition is part of growth, too. And it doesn'tbother me one bit that you hear more
rock `n' roll in black players,unless it's just not good. The idea of doing rock n' roll that
comesout of Led Zeppelin doesn't bother me. I understand it's third-handinformation that
came from black people to begin with, but if a guylikes it, play it. When Tony Williams and I
first left Miles, we did twodifferent things. My orientation was from a funk thing. What
Tonyresponded to was rock `n' roll. That's why his sound had more of arock influence than
Headhunters. I can't say that's negative.MARSALIS: I agree with what Herb has said. If
somebody wants togo out with a dress on, a skirt, panties-that's their business. Butwhat

8. happens is not that one or two people do that. Everybodyhas to do that. It doesn't bother me
that [black] comedians can bein film, I think that's great. And the films are funny. What
bothersme is that only comedians can be in films.I think since the sixties, with people on TV
always cursing whitepeople but not presenting any intellectual viewpoint, that any
blackperson who tries to exhibit any kind of intellect is considered astrying not to be black.
We have allowed social scientists toredefine what type of people we are. I play some
European[music] to pay respect to a great, great music which had nothing todo with racial
situations. Beethoven wasn't thinking about thesocial conditions in America when he wrote
something, he wasthinking about why did he have to get off the street for the princes.So his
music has the same type of freedom and struggle forabolition of the class system, as Louis
Armstrong's music is acelebration of that abolition. See, Beethoven's music has that
struggle in it. Louis Armstrong is the resolution of that. Thisgigantic cultural achievement is
just going to be redefined unless Itake an active part in saying what I think is
correct.HANCOCK: Now that you've voiced all-not all, but many of yourobjections-what do
you do about it? How do we make it better? Ifall we do is complain. . . .MARSALIS: We're not
complaining. We're providing people withinformation.HANCOCK: Well, there's two ways to
provide people withinformation. One way is to point your finger at them or intimidatethem
by pulling at their collars. But many times what that does is itmakes the person feel
uncomfortable, and then if he starts to geton the defensive, you've lost more ground than
you've gained. SoI've found from my own life that I can get more accomplished bygetting a
person inspired to do something. Inspiration, notintimidation.MARSALIS: `Cept intimidation
is good, too.HANCOCK: This is where you and I differ. I haven't said much beforebecause I'm
not like that.MUSICIAN: You've really defined your point of view in terms of thisinterview,
and Herbie hasn't yet.MARSALIS: I was talking too much. Sorry I was being
uncool.HANCOCK: No, no, no. It was cool. It's all right. I'll come backanother day when
you're not here. . . . [general laughter]MARSALIS: The problem is in the educational system.
I've hadconversations with people about you. Musicians have no idea whoyou are. They
have no understanding or respect for being able toplay. It's just like they think they're you
or something. The first
question I hear everywhere is, "How do you get over? How did youget your break with
Herbie?" I said, "When I was with Herbie andthem, I was just fortunate to be on the
bandstand. Just to belearning from Herbie. . . ." No, seriously, man, I'm not saying it tokiss
your ass. You know it's true.HANCOCK: That's what I feel about him. He came in with
onetrumpet, nineteen years old playing with me, Ron, and Tony.MARSALIS: I was
scared.HANCOCK: When I heard him play, then I had to call up Ron andTony and say-
MARSALIS: Hey, this mother is sad. [laughs]HANCOCK: Look, it's gonna work. What he did
was so phenomenal.You remember that tour. That tour was bad.MARSALIS: I learned so
much on that tour, man.HANCOCK: So did I, man. You taught me a lot. You made me
play.Plus you made me get some new clothes. [laughs]MARSALIS: I can get publicity until
I'm a hundred. That's not gonnamake me be on the level with cats like Miles or Clifford, or
knowthe stuff that you know. Even "Rockit" has elements that I canrelate to. But in general
you made funk cats musicians. And thathas been overlooked.MUSICIAN: In the end, were
the compromises involved in doing thevideo worth it?HANCOCK: I had a choice. And I'm

9. proud of the choice that I made.But as a result, what happened? Between Michael Jackson's
videoand my video, the impact opened the thing up. Now, I'm sureMichael can take more
credit for that. Anyway, if it was true thatMTV was racist-
MARSALIS: It was true. You don't have to say "if."HANCOCK: I have never claimed that to be
true.MARSALIS: I'll say it.HANCOCK: I've only claimed that this is what I observe. But now
yousee plenty of videos with black artists. It doesn't even look likethere's any difference
anymore. Even though I wasn't even lookingfor that as a solution, if this additional thing
was accomplished, Ifeel really good about that. And I feel good about getting fiveawards on
MTV. They were trying to copy something before. Nowthey realize they have something
that's more powerful than whatthey were trying to copy.MARSALIS: The sound of Michael
Jackson's music, the sound ofPrince's music, the sound of "Rockit"-that sound is not
black.People are consciously trying to be crossovers. I've readinterviews where people say,
"We take this type of music and wetry to get this type of sound to appeal to this type of
market to sellthese many records."MUSICIAN: Do you think Michael did that?MARSALIS: Of
course he did. But the thing that separates MichaelJackson from all other pop artists is the
level of sincerity in hismusic.MUSICIAN: You're saying he's got sincerity, and yet at the same
timehe contoured his sound?MARSALIS: He's a special person. He's not contrived. What I
don'tunderstand is why he did that cut with Mick Jagger.HANCOCK: I'll tell ya, I just did a
record with Mick Jagger and, man,Mick Jagger's bad.MARSALIS: Yeah, well. . . .
HANCOCK: I didn't know that. And you don't know that, either.MARSALIS: I'm not doubting
that he's bad. . . .HANCOCK: Wynton, you don't know that.MARSALIS: I'm not doubting that
he's bad, Herbie. Check it out. Buta lot of pop music is geared toward children. It's not
somethingthat I can really have a serious discussion about.HANCOCK: You're right. It's
geared toward teens and the preteens.So what it's doing is stimulating my own youth and
allowing me toexpress my own youth. Because it's not like I'm doing mydaughter's music.
This is my music. And we both happen to like itbecause we both feel that youthful element.
People tell me I lookyounger now than I did five years ago. And I do . . . except in
themorning. [laughs] I would venture to say that a lot of it has to dowith the music I'm
playing now. Electric music, you know. I'mfinding a door that hasn't been opened. That's
exciting me, and I'mgiven the opportunity to use some elements from the "farthest out"jazz
stuff in this music, and have it be unique.MUSICIAN: How do you get human feeling in
automated,computerized music like that?HANCOCK: First we create the music. Afterwards I
sit back andlisten, and sometimes I discover things that I wasn't really thinkingabout when I
was doing them. I hear the elements that havewarmth. Sometimes it's a particular
synthesizer sound. But it couldbe how it's played.MARSALIS: I'm coming off negative and
that's not what I'm intending.. . . The purpose of pop music is to sell records that appeal
topeople on a level that they want to accept it on. If you put out arecord and it doesn't sell,
then your next response is, Why didn'tthe record sell? Let's try to do this or that to make the
record sell.
MUSICIAN: That's terribly condescending toward pop. . . .HANCOCK: Why are we asking him
about pop music? What does heknow about pop music?MARSALIS: I know a lot about pop
music.HANCOCK: No, you don't.MARSALIS: I played in pop-HANCOCK: Wynton, you don't.
You think you know.MARSALIS: I don't want to mess with you.HANCOCK: The very

10. statement that you just made makes it obviousthat you don't know.MARSALIS: That's cool.
I'm not going to get into it. I've hadconversations with you, where you told me, "Man we're
trying toget this kind of market." It's not like I don't know pop musicians. It'snot like I don't
listen to music.HANCOCK: Then there's some things you misunderstand about it.Because I
never use the word sell.MARSALIS: I don't know. Remember what you told me
before?"Yeah, man, my record just went gold, man. I need to get me somemore records like
that." We had long conversations about that. Weshouldn't be arguing about this in the press,
man. We have to becool. We've talked about this already.HANCOCK: Do you think I'd object
if my records sold millions?MARSALIS: Don't say you don't think about that.HANCOCK: Of
course I would.
MARSALIS: Because you do. You do think about that.MUSICIAN: To think about it and have
it as your aim are two differentthings.HANCOCK: Thank you.MARSALIS: I'm getting tired
now. You said the opposite of what Iwanted to hear.HANCOCK: Look, I'd like to have a Rolls-
Royce, too. But I'm notpurposefully trying to set myself up to get a Rolls-Royce.MARSALIS:
Pop music is something that you don't really have toknow too much to know
about.HANCOCK: [long silence] . . . Okay, next!MUSICIAN: When you play pop music, do you
feel as musicallyfulfilled as when you're playing jazz?MARSALIS: Don't lie,
Herbie.HANCOCK: Okay. I only feel musically fulfilled when I can do both. If Idon't play any
jazz this year or half of next year, I'm gonna still bedoing fine. But at a certain point I'm
gonna want to play some.Now, what I wanted to say was when I did "Rockit," when I
didLight Me Up . . . I'm not sitting down and saying, "What can I put inthis music to make it
sell?" That's what I don't do. When I'm sittingand actually making the music, I know my
frame of mind. And youcan't tell me-MARSALIS: I can't tell you anything. . . .HANCOCK: No,
I'm being honest. Let's say you want to do cartoons,or make a comic book, and you're
Gauguin. If Gauguin were to doa comic book, I would respect him if he had the same kind
ofattitude of trying to make something happen with the cartoon, and
learn from dealing with a medium that's more popular than the onehe's accustomed
to.MUSICIAN: What he's also saying is there's this evolutionary sweepthat takes all these
things in its stride. . . .HANCOCK: I'm not looking at these things that you're objecting to
asthe end. I look at them more as an interim.MARSALIS: It's just ignorance being celebrated
to the highest level. Ifsomebody wants to say anything that has any kernel of
intellect,immediately the word elitist is brought out and brandished acrossthe page to whip
them back down into ignorance. Especially blackartists and athletes. We are constantly
called upon to have nothingto say. I'm just trying to stimulate . . . some kind of
intellectualrealization. I'm just trying to raise questions about why we asmusicians have to
constantly take into account some bullshit toproduce what we want to produce as music,
what Herbie is sayingabout evolution. Frankly, I never thought about it that way. But
hebrought out something interesting. All I can say is, I hope he'sright.