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The greatest fluid debate
@DogICUma
@toddrice_ICU
@JAMyburgh
The greatest fluid debate
@srrezaie
@DogICUma
@toddrice_ICU
@JAMyburgh
The greatest fluid chat
@DogICUma
@toddrice_ICU
@JAMyburgh
45 year old diabetic
male
Severe generalised
abdominal pain
Vomiting
Rigors
Calls an ambulance
High heart rate
– 140bpm
High fever
– 39°C
Low blood pressure
– 78/40
Septic shock
Abdominal source
Fluids first
vs.
Fluids + pressors
vs.
Pressors first
An echo is mandatory
vs.
An echo is generally helpful
vs.
An echo is generally unhelpful
Balanced crystalloid
vs.
0.9% Saline
vs.
Colloid
8L +ve & 8kg heavier
On mod. dose noradrenaline
Intravascularly deplete
@DogICUma
@toddrice_ICU
@JAMyburgh
all icons: https://thenounproject.com

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The Great(est) Fluid Debate

Editor's Notes

  1. The title of this session is ‘the greatest fluid debate’ but we are all friends here and agree about everything all of the time so, it’s really more of a chat.
  2. We hope you will get involved. Please send questions and comments to the Twitter moderator
  3. We hope you will get involved.
  4. Ambulance comes. Patient looks sick.
  5. The sick patient arrives in hospital.
  6. The provisional diagnosis here is septic shock with a primary abdominal source
  7. “So, you might have noticed that this icon is called ‘saline drip’. I want to put that to one side for now. John / Todd – let’s start with a philosophical discussion. In general terms, tell us which camp you belong to and why?” Among other things, I think that this would be an opportunity to talk about the CENSER trial: https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1164/rccm.201806-1034OC & the REFRESH pilot RCT: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00134-018-5433-0 There are also couple of recent retrospective studies that highlight the association between duration of hypotension and mortality that could be mentioned: https://annalsofintensivecare.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s13613-018-0448-9 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00134-018-5218-5 We could a twitter Poll or take some comments from Twitter here.
  8. While the philosophical discussion is ongoing, the emergency physician swoops in with an ultrasound machine and says, “look, the patient is hypovolaemic and needs volume”. Todd/John – any thoughts or comments. “Vigorous empty ventricle from low SVR and from hypovolaemia look the same – my view is that this echo actually does not help much apart from confirming appearances are consistent with septic shock. Still don’t know whether this means we should give fluid.”
  9. ...and where do you stand on this spectrum. Twitter comments / questions? Twitter poll?
  10. “So, let’s just say you decide to give a fluid bolus. Let’s talk about this. Todd, you go first...” Twitter comments? Live Twitter Poll?
  11. Some time later the patient, who has been to the OR and had a gangrenous perforated appendix chopped out, is in the ICU. Using your expert clinical judgement you decide that the patient has a combination of total body fluid overload and intravascular depletion. Where do you stand on fluid boluses for this patient? Twitter comments? Live Twitter Poll? Once the time comes to take fluid away, where do you stand on diuretics? Twitter comments? Live Twitter Poll?