Hunter-gatherers have historically been viewed either as savages or as naturalists in tune with their environment. Early thinkers like Hobbes and Lubbock portrayed hunter-gatherers as living in a brutal state of nature, constantly struggling for survival. More recently, scholars like Flannery have taken a more positive view, seeing hunter-gatherers as skilled botanists who used ingenious techniques to thrive in diverse environments. There is also a debate around whether hunting or gathering provided more to survival and about the gender roles and relationship to nature within hunter-gatherer societies.