Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 1 - 1 November 2010

Web Address: http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/pak06278
RealTime Transcriptions
64 10th
Avenue, Highlands North, Johannesburg
P O Box 721, Highlands North, 2037
Tel: 011-440-3647 Fax: 011-440-9119 Cell: 083 273-5335
E-mail: realtime@pixie.co.za
TRANSCRIPTION OF THE
INSOLVENCY INQUIRY
IN TERMS OF SECTION 417, 418 OF THE COMPANIES ACT
INTO THE AFFAIRS OF THE INSOLVENT ESTATE OF
DRS DS GRIEVES BRIDGING SOLUTIONS
(PTY) LIMITED
(IN LIQUIDATION)
MASTERS REFERENCE T0240/10
BEFORE
MS R BEKKER
HELD ON
01 NOVEMBER 2010 PAGES 94 TO 314
HELD AT
BOWMAN GILFILLAN, WEST STREET, SANDTON

1st November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry
Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
Page 94
1 [PROCEEDINGS ON 1 NOVEMBER 2010]
2 [09:35] COMMISSIONER: I’m told that at our last
3 meeting in August there were cell phones on in the silent
4 mode and that interrupted our transcription rather
5 prejudicially. Okay. Everyone’s cell phones switched off?
6 Thank you. We are on record today. It’s the 1st November
7 2010. We are proceeding in our enquiry in the matter of Dr
8 DS Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd in liquidation,
9 masters reference number T240/2010. Parties present, to my
10 left we have Mr G.J Nel, who is counsel from the
11 Johannesburg bar. He is instructed by Mr Haroon Laher of
12 Bowman Gilfillan Attorneys. Assisting Mr Laher we have Ms
13 Bianca Masterton and Ms Nabila Kathrada.
14 Other parties present, we have Mr Dewalt
15 Breytenbach, who is one of the joint liquidators in this
16 matter of Elcea Car Trustees or just Trust, Elcea Trust.
17 Is that correct? Trust. And then creditors who are in
18 attendance, we have Mrs Rosa Fourie, her son Mr David
19 Fourie and Mr Andre Besbier are all creditors in this
20 matter. We have Dr Grieve with us with morning. Good
21 morning, Mr Grieve. And then of course we have Mrs Robin
22 Cohen who is doing the transcription for us. Is there
23 anything housekeeping that you need me to attend to, or can
24 I place Dr Grieve under oath?
25 ADV NEL: We’ve got nothing from our
Page 95
1 side, thank you.
2 COMMISSIONER: Dr Grieve, you have been
3 with us before. Apparently if I understand correctly your
4 legal representative, Mr Willem Storm is ill and is unable
5 to attend today. Is that correct?
6 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct.
7 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Do you have any
8 objection talking to us without him being present?
9 DR GRIEVE: I have no objection.
10 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well, let me then
11 just place on record that you must please bring it to my
12 attention the moment you feel uncomfortable. I will try
13 and assist you where I can. If needs be we can perhaps
14 stand down and you can have a chat with Mr Storm at various
15 intervals if you feel the need to do that. Otherwise let’s
16 proceed. If I remember correctly did you have an objection
17 in taking the oath?
18 DR GRIEVE: No objection, no.
19 COMMISSIONER: No objection. Please
20 raise your right hand. Do you swear that the evidence that
21 you’re about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and
22 nothing but the truth, so help me God?
23 DR GRIEVE: I do.
24 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
25 Please proceed, Mr Nel.
Page 96
1 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, you
2 have attended a similar enquiry previously and questions
3 were put to you. I’d like to start with the application
4 that was launched on your behalf. You’ll find that
5 application if you need to look at it in volume 1 of the
6 documents. It’s just being brought closer to you. You’ll
7 find all of those pages are numbered. If you turn to page
8 6 of that bundle that’s the first page of the founding
9 affidavit that was signed by yourself. And you will see
10 you signed it on page 13. Do you remember deposing to this
11 affidavit?
12 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, I’m just trying to
13 find – which one are we referring to, this one? Am I on
14 the right page?
15 ADV NEL: Point again.
16 DR GRIEVE: Page 6. It says 6. Sorry,
17 I’ve got the wrong page. This one?
18 ADV NEL: Yes.
19 DR GRIEVE: Okay. Yes.
20 ADV NEL: And that’s the – when I refer
21 to 13 I’m saying that’s the page where you signed it. Do
22 you recall deposing to this affidavit?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: Okay. Now, you also during the
25 last proceedings conceded that a statement that you’d made
Page 97
1 in your application for voluntary surrender to the effect
2 that you paid R21 million to Presidium was incorrect. Do
3 you remember that?
4 DR GRIEVE: I remember that. I still
5 want to comment on that if I may. It was in Afrikaans and
6 I was assisted with that. And if I read that paragraph in
7 Afrikaans I still beg to differ with the interpretation of
8 that.
9 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, I don’t mean to
10 interrupt you. I’m just trying to help you.
11 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
12 ADV NEL: Can you turn to page 15 of that
13 bundle in front of you. Sorry, Madam Commissioner, just to
14 refer Dr Grieve to the paragraph he’s referring to.
15 COMMISSIONER: I accept that.
16 DR GRIEVE: Okay, if you can help me out
17 there again. Which paragraph was it?
18 ADV NEL: Um -
19 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I’ve got it, it’s fine.
20 ADV NEL: I think it’s paragraph 10.2.
21 DR GRIEVE: Okay. If I may make a
22 comment on this. I feel, and even if this is incorrect
23 then I have to accept that it’s incorrect, fair enough.
24 But I still feel my intent here – and if I was going to say
25 what you say I’m saying I would have worded it slightly

Page 98
1 different and said “ek het ‘n bedrag” en nie “ek moes ‘n
2 bedrag”. To me it’s a little bit ambiguous, yes, fair
3 enough. I accept that I did not pay that. That was not
4 the intent of this paragraph. If I mean it to say that I
5 had paid that I would have said “ek het” en nie “ek moes”.
6 Okay. But if your interpretation is otherwise, I have to
7 concede to it, yes.
8 ADV NEL: It’s not a question, Dr Grieve,
9 of my interpretation. What we’re trying to get at here is
10 what factually occurred.
11 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
12 ADV NEL: What I’m getting at is I’m not
13 trying to suggest that you lied in this affidavit.
14 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
15 ADV NEL: What I’m trying to get at is
16 you conceded that you had not paid R21 million.
17 DR GRIEVE: No, I had not.
18 ADV NEL: And that if there was a
19 misinterpretation here that has been explained away by you
20 saying you didn’t pay R21 million. I think where the
21 semantics may have come in was the fact that by the time
22 you deposed to this particular affidavit for voluntary
23 surrender the book debts had already been sold. So even
24 the suggestion – because what I understand by you saying by
25 the word “moes” means I had to or I was supposed to.
Page 99
1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 ADV NEL: But even that is incorrect,
3 isn’t it, because at that time that you deposed to this
4 affidavit the book debts had already been sold for R13.7
5 million. So all you would have had to pay was R6.3
6 million, not so?
7 DR GRIEVE: That’s true.
8 ADV NEL: I bring this to your attention
9 for the simple reason that I’m taking you through another
10 affidavit, and what we want you to do is if there is
11 something wrong in the affidavit this is your opportunity
12 to put it right. That’s why I said the last time you made
13 a concession that something in the affidavit was wrong.
14 You’ve now explained it away. Nobody is blaming you for
15 that, if we can say for misinterpretation or
16 misunderstanding. My point is you’re getting an
17 opportunity to set the record straight.
18 COMMISSIONER: Do you accept that?
19 DR GRIEVE: I accept it. Thank you
20 kindly.
21 ADV NEL: So we go back to that original
22 affidavit which starts at page 6. If you turn to page 9 at
23 paragraph 11 it says “The purpose of the application is
24 twofold. The first portion is to pierce the corporate veil
25 between all the applicants, and the second portion is to
Page 100
1 liquidate the combined estates of all of the applicants.”
2 That was your purpose in launching this application.
4 ADV NEL: And at a later stage you filed
5 a supplementary affidavit. I can refer you to that.
6 Sorry. You’ll find that starts at page 32. And if you
7 turn over to page 33 in paragraph 3 you say, “It has come
8 to my attention that my personal estate is not part of the
9 application, being one of the applicants. I am indeed
10 insolvent and I would beg the court to add my personal
11 estate for sequestration as part of the group.” So your
12 intention when you launched this application was to
13 liquidate all of these entities and sequestrate yourself in
14 one go.
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes, that’s correct.
16 ADV NEL: And you regarded all of these
17 entities and yourself as one person or entity. Is that
18 right?
19 DR GRIEVE: I think that would be
20 accurate, ja.
21 ADV NEL: Because you say you want to
22 pierce the corporate veil, and you say all of these
23 entities are one and the same. That’s in your mind.
24 DR GRIEVE: In my mind, yes.
25 ADV NEL: And by joining yourself to that
Page 101
1 application you regarded yourself as also one and the same.
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: Now, if you turn to page 10,
4 paragraph 12.9, you say, “I used the second applicant. The
5 second applicant is Bridging Solutions, the company in
6 liquidation and the company whose insolvency enquiry is
7 being dealt with today. Do you accept that?
8 COMMISSIONER: You have to say yes or no.
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I’m just reading here.
10 ADV NEL: I’m just referring you to who
11 the second applicant is.
12 DR GRIEVE: I think that’s correct, ja.
13 That’s my understanding, yes.
14 ADV NEL: Just to assist you, if you turn
15 back to page 6 you will see in the heading it’s got Dr DS
16 Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd, the second applicant.
17 You said, “I used the second applicant and the applicants –
18 some of the applicants were spawned prior to 2006 but was
19 only activated during and after 2006 – to lend out money as
20 bridging finance and invest part of the profits in
21 immovable property.” Is that correct?
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
23 ADV NEL: What has happened to these
24 other entities that were applicants in this application?
25 DR GRIEVE: It’s my understanding that

Page 102
1 they’ve all been liquidated. If I may just add, many of
2 them were just pieces of paper, shelf companies. So there
3 were only two or three that were really active.
4 ADV NEL: And have there been any
5 enquiries arising from the liquidation of these entities?
6 DR GRIEVE: No, just the one that we’re
7 at now.
8 ADV NEL: Now, those immovable properties
9 that you purchased or you invested part of the profits in,
10 which immovable properties are those? Can you recall?
11 DR GRIEVE: There was quite a number of
12 properties amongst others that we were developing as well
13 in one of the other entities. And a few investment
14 properties as well which the idea is to collect a rental
15 income on those. And all of those, it’s quite a list. And
16 to give you a list offhand now is going to be impossible,
17 but the liquidator definitely has a full list of all of
18 those properties.
19 ADV NEL: And those are – the list that
20 the liquidator has of those immovable properties, those
21 were properties you’re referring to in this paragraph?
22 DR GRIEVE: Indeed, yes.
23 ADV NEL: If I can assist you, if you can
24 turn to page 158 of that bundle in front of you.
25 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
Page 103
1 ADV NEL: Do you see those lists of
2 properties?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: Are those the properties you
5 refer to in paragraph 12.9?
6 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to have to just say
7 yes, definitely it is. I’m looking at it very quickly now.
8 I’m not sure if that is the full list and it is an
9 exhaustive list. This specific annexure that I have in
10 front of me, is this pertaining to a specific entity or me
11 as an individual?
12 ADV NEL: This pertains to -
13 DR GRIEVE: Some of -
14 ADV NEL: - your voluntary surrender
15 application.
16 DR GRIEVE: Then these should be the
17 properties that were in my personal estate. There were a
18 few others in other entities as well, and I’m sure you have
19 them as annexures somewhere here as well.
20 ADV NEL: But do any of these properties
21 on page 158, are they the properties you referred to in
22 paragraph 12.9? Paragraph 12.9 I referred you to at page
23 10.
24 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
25 ADV NEL: Do you want to read that again?
Page 104
1 DR GRIEVE: Can you read it for me there?
2 My eyes are -
3 ADV NEL: “I used the second applicant
4 and the other applicants,” I’m going to ignore what’s in
5 brackets, “to lend out money as a bridging finance and
6 invest part of the profits in immovable properties.”
7 DR GRIEVE: These would have been some of
8 them I believe, yes.
9 ADV NEL: So, Dr Grieve, even though the
10 profits came from legal entities you invested them as
11 profits in properties owned by you in your personal
12 capacity?
13 DR GRIEVE: That was the case in some
14 instances, yes.
15 ADV NEL: So in your mind there was
16 really no distinction between a legal entity and yourself.
17 DR GRIEVE: I think that is a fair
18 assumption to make. That is why we brought the application
19 as a piercing of the corporate veil.
20 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, if that is so then
21 surely the debts and liabilities of those companies must be
22 yours personally as well?
23 DR GRIEVE: I actually have no problem
24 with that, and that is why we tried to bring that
25 application initially as the whole bundle together to try
Page 105
1 and benefit everybody as well as we possibly could.
2 ADV NEL: Staying with that page,
3 paragraph 12.10.
4 DR GRIEVE: Page 158?
5 ADV NEL: 10, sorry. I apologise. Page
6 10, paragraph 12.10. You state there, “I initially started
7 with my own capital in the amount of R5 million which I
8 lent at an interest rate of 4.5% per month to clients.” Is
9 that correct?
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: Was that a loan that you made
12 to the legal entities or was this directly to clients who
13 you were assisting with bridging finance?
14 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to sound a little
15 bit dumb. I’m not quite sure what you mean when you say
16 that. Just rephrase.
17 ADV NEL: Sorry, I apologise. Let me be
18 clearer. This R5 million -
19 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
20 ADV NEL: That came out of your own
21 pocket?
22 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to answer that a
23 little bit in a lengthy fashion. Yes. What we may find is
24 that I had prior to that purchased a property or two and I
25 used second bonds on those properties. But ja, in that

Page 106
1 manner out of my own pocket. That would be correct.
2 ADV NEL: Okay. And it then says that
3 you loaned that at an interest rate of 4.5% per month to
4 clients. What I was trying to get at, the clients that you
5 refer to there, are those the legal entities that were the
6 applicants, in other words Bridging Solutions?
7 DR GRIEVE: No.
8 ADV NEL: This was directly to clients
9 who needed finance?
10 DR GRIEVE: That is correct, ja.
11 ADV NEL: So at that stage you were
12 running a bridging finance company in your own personal
13 name, personal capacity?
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 ADV NEL: And would that have been until
16 2006 when all these companies were activated as you say?
17 DR GRIEVE: I’m not 100% sure of the
18 exact date when we started to let’s say roll the can we
19 call it a loan book or a debtors book or a factor book.
20 When we started to roll it into that entity would have been
21 probably around about 2006, ja. But I don’t think I drew
22 an exact line and said, right, from today all of it will be
23 in here. It was staggered in.
24 ADV NEL: In clause 12.11 you say, “I
25 used part of the profit to buy properties and develop them
Page 107
1 for the purpose of reselling it for a further profit.” Are
2 those the immovable properties I referred you to earlier or
3 are there others?
4 DR GRIEVE: There are others.
5 ADV NEL: And you’ve given all of the
6 descriptions and identities of those properties to the
7 liquidator?
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I have. They would have
9 fallen in another entity or two entities.
10 ADV NEL: Do you have the names of those
11 entities?
12 DR GRIEVE: There were properties in Dr
13 DS Grieve Incorporated, or Dr David Grieve Incorporated.
14 There was a name change that was done a couple of years
15 prior. I’m not quite sure what the title deeds would say.
16 Then there were two or three in Village Star Trading.
17 ADV NEL: Can I ask you, why did you
18 bother with all these entities if as far as you were
19 concerned they were all really just you?
20 DR GRIEVE: It’s a very difficult
21 question to answer because the truth is I don’t really
22 know. I think one of the initial thoughts was I lent my
23 ears out to legal advice at an early age and some of these
24 entities were registered because of advice received and
25 probably not well interpreted initially. So I had these
Page 108
1 things. My intention was that in Incorporated I would
2 develop properties and sell them. And where I wanted to
3 keep some of these properties as a long-term investment I
4 would actually transfer them to Village Star. And then
5 obviously those that were in my name were done prior to
6 that way of thinking. So that was the train of thought for
7 that. Does that answer your question?
8 [09:55] ADV NEL: Sorry, just one second. How
9 did you finance all of these different development projects
10 and purchasing of houses?
11 DR GRIEVE: With bank finance.
12 ADV NEL: In the name of each entity?
13 Did each entity go and apply for a loan? Who applied for
14 the loan?
15 DR GRIEVE: Well, either myself or the
16 entities, yes, and I would have had to stand surety for an
17 entity as well.
18 ADV NEL: And that entity, particular
19 entity that applied for a loan, would only use that loan
20 for its own purposes?
21 DR GRIEVE: If there was any surplus in a
22 loan, I would probably throw that into the bridging book to
23 generate more capital and earning capacity in the bridging
24 book.
25 ADV NEL: So when you got a loan from,
Page 109
1 let’s say for example Standard Bank to purchase a property
2 in the name of Village Star Trading, you asked for R2
3 million mortgage bond finance, they give you R2 million,
4 you manage to negotiate with the seller for 1,8 million,
5 you buy for 1,8 and you take the other 200 000 and just
6 transfer it to another entity?
7 DR GRIEVE: Basically yes and I would use
8 that to bridge, ja.
9 ADV NEL: So there was no corporate
10 governance in any of your entities, that’s what it sounds
11 like to me.
12 DR GRIEVE: Fair enough.
13 ADV NEL: In paragraph 12.12 on page 10,
14 you say the buying and selling of the properties was done
15 through any one of the applicants. Do you see that?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: And then you carry on and you
18 say, “And the bond instalments on the properties would be
19 paid by any one of the applicants.” Now, that statement
20 actually fits in well with what you’ve just told me.
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 ADV NEL: It seemed to me it was
23 irrelevant to you who was who. You would buy it in the
24 name of Village Star, you would pay for it in the name of
25 Dr David Grieve Incorporated –

Page 110
1 DR GRIEVE: What I’d like to add there,
2 yes, I have no problem in accepting that, but in terms of
3 Village Star, I would actually pay those bonds from Village
4 Star and the Incorporated, I would pay those bonds from the
5 Incorporated account, but then there was like Nanene cc
6 where I had some units – sectional title units, and those
7 are paid out of my private account because there was never
8 a trading account Nanene cc or a current account, or a
9 cheque account, whatever you want to call it. And the same
10 with bonds that were in a trust, I obviously paid them out
11 of my private account for the same reason. There was no
12 current account or saving account. So I think that does
13 answer your question.
14 ADV NEL: And let’s just, now, let’s take
15 one of those examples you’ve given us of Nanene close
16 corporation, when you advanced – well, when you bought
17 something in the name of Nanene and you say it had no money
18 or it didn’t have an account, would you record the money
19 that you paid on behalf of Nanene as a loan account from
20 you to Nanene?
21 DR GRIEVE: I should, I’m not sure if we
22 ever did that.
23 ADV NEL: Who’s we, Dr Grieve?
24 DR GRIEVE: Well, myself and whoever was
25 my auditor at the time.
Page 111
1 ADV NEL: You see this isn’t a witch
2 hunt, but what we’re trying to get at is, where’s all the
3 money gone? There was a lot of money here. People are
4 trying to find out where the money’s gone.
5 DR GRIEVE: And I accept that.
6 ADV NEL: And that’s why I’m saying to
7 you, it’s not a personal witch hunt, I’m just trying to
8 find out what happened and it’s made quite difficult by the
9 fact that you’re telling us that there was no corporate
10 governance, so we’re just trying to establish what
11 happened. At page 11, paragraph 12.16, the last sentence,
12 you say, “I sold the part of debtors book to this investor
13 as part of payment of their investment in the amount of
14 more than R16 million.” Now that investor is Presidium.
15 Is that a correct statement?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: I thought you sold it for R13.7
18 million.
19 DR GRIEVE: I did sell it for R13.7, I’m
20 not sure why I let R16 million slip through here. The only
21 thing I can add there, I think that the actual face value
22 of the part of the books that was sold, was perhaps around
23 about R16 million, if that makes sense, and it was sold at
24 a discount. I’m not quite sure if that is accurate. We’d
25 have to go and look at what the face value was there.
Page 112
1 ADV NEL: Well, you know it’s – I sort of
2 vaguely understand your explanation, because it’s like
3 saying to me my car is worth R200 000, I’m selling it for
4 R100 000, so when somebody asks me, “How much did you sell
5 it for, I say R200 000.” I mean didn’t you sell this for
6 R13,7 million?
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I did.
8 ADV NEL: It doesn’t matter what it was
9 worth, that’s what you sold it for and that’s what you say
10 here, “I sold it for more than 16 –
11 DR GRIEVE: Ja, then this is –
12 ADV NEL: It’s wrong.
13 DR GRIEVE: It’s wrong, it’s a mistake.
14 ADV NEL: Now, let’s start at the bottom
15 of page 11, paragraph 12.19, you say that you set out some
16 of the difficulties that were faced. You say the effect of
17 this, is that, “The applicants cannot pay its debts and
18 cannot repay the investors. The applicants are
19 commercially insolvent. The monthly financial commitment
20 of the applicant, are in the region of R1 million per
21 month.” Can you elaborate on that?
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes, the commitment of the
23 applicants would include all the entities as well as
24 myself, and because we had obviously had a string of
25 development properties that we were holding onto as well
Page 113
1 and we were caught out very badly with those properties,
2 because we had finished a number of properties and as we
3 released them in the market, the banks turned around and
4 sort of suddenly came up new playing rules in the economy
5 at that stage and everybody had to start putting in 15% and
6 20% deposits in the price range that we were developing in.
7 So we suddenly got stuck with stocks that we were
8 struggling to move. So I had a number of bonds to service
9 with that, a multitude of bonds to be blunt about it, as
10 well as then certain stands that we still intended to
11 develop, which we were unable to develop, because we
12 couldn’t find buyers as a result of the deposits that they
13 had to now start placing, which was not the case obviously
14 a few months prior to that. So that put us under
15 tremendous pressure just there and to the point where
16 strange things were happening in the marketplace and that,
17 we even had where we had buyers on file with approved
18 finances and I recall one Standard Bank guarantee that was
19 given to the attorney doing the transfers, that was
20 actually withdrawn for a while, which was unheard of before
21 that and because I was in the bridging space as well, I
22 picked up that in my book there was a few of those things
23 where the banks actually started to withdraw approvals and
24 grants.
25 So, ja, we had that, then obviously I had to

Page 114
1 still carry the guys that were physically building, the
2 workers – the labourers that were doing the building work,
3 I had to carry them and the equipment, some of it was
4 financed, I had to carry that and then obviously I still
5 had to carry the guys that I feel very bad for, the
6 investors on bridging side, because suddenly where I had a
7 lot of income, it was taken away, or I lost it, whichever
8 way you want to call it, and I suddenly had a large amount
9 of pressure. And at the same time there’s was a period
10 there were Presidium hit me with the penalty interest,
11 which was, for me personally it was crazy, I mean there was
12 no ways I could afford that either and that penalty
13 interest really hurt big time.
14 ADV NEL: What portion of that million
15 Rand was DS Bridging Solutions monthly liabilities?
16 DR GRIEVE: That’s a difficult call. I
17 think about 200, 250, I’m rounding off, I’d have to go and
18 work it out clearly, but in that ballpark.
19 ADV NEL: I just want to get back to one
20 example you gave just now about the Standard Bank guarantee
21 being withdrawn, you raised that during the last inquiry as
22 well and then explained it as one of the reasons you were
23 struggling getting bridging finance in, because the
24 purchaser got a bond and that bond was declined, or
25 withdrawn.
Page 115
1 DR GRIEVE: Withdrawn, we actually had an
2 issue with some of the attorney firms as well.
3 ADV NEL: Ja, sure, but just that example
4 - well, what I want to put to you is this, the bridging
5 finance that you advanced, isn’t to the purchaser, it’s to
6 the seller, isn’t that so?
7 DR GRIEVE: In most of the cases, yes.
8 ADV NEL: I mean your classic of bridging
9 finance is, somebody sells his house and he doesn’t want to
10 wait two or three months for the bank to – for the actual
11 lodgement of transfer when the payment comes through and he
12 comes to you and he says, “I’ve got a surplus of R300 000,
13 I’ll sell it to you for R270 000. The attorney is going to
14 pay you the 300 000 when transfer gets lodged.” So how
15 does it affect you if the buyer doesn’t get a bond, because
16 it’s the seller that you’re financing, not the buyer?
17 DR GRIEVE: Well, it still affects me,
18 because that’s where I’m getting my money from to settle.
19 ADV NEL: But it’s secured.
20 DR GRIEVE: It’s supposed to be, yes.
21 ADV NEL: But it’s secured by the
22 immovable property.
23 DR GRIEVE: If you register a bond over
24 it, but we normally accepted undertakings from the
25 attorneys.
Page 116
1 ADV NEL: So if the property is never
2 sold, then you’ve got no course of action to get your money
3 back?
4 DR GRIEVE: Well, you’re going to follow
5 a legal process and you’re going to fight for it and you
6 can also hopefully give the attorney that gave the solid
7 undertaking a bit of stick in the process as well.
8 ADV NEL: Well, you can’t you see, Mr
9 Grieve, because his undertaking to you was when this
10 property is transferred, I will pay you. Isn’t that so?
11 DR GRIEVE: In many of the cases, yes.
12 ADV NEL: I mean because he’s the
13 conveyancing attorney. So he says, “I’ll pay you when the
14 property is transferred and the selling price is made
15 available, that’s when he pays you. That’s his only
16 obligation to you.
17 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
18 ADV NEL: But now the purchaser doesn’t
19 get a bond, so the conveyancing attorney never gets to
20 transfer this property. The money never goes to the
21 conveyancer, so he never has to pay it to you, but in the
22 interim you’ve paid this money out to the seller, isn’t
23 that so?
24 DR GRIEVE: That can happen, yes.
25 ADV NEL: So surely you go to the seller
Page 117
1 and say, “Pay the money back.”
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: Did you do that?
4 DR GRIEVE: On occasion, yes.
5 ADV NEL: Were there occasions that you
6 advanced money to sellers and that you weren’t paid and you
7 didn’t go and ask for it back?
8 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall such an
9 occasion. I would look at the attorney first and hopefully
10 get success from that, but there were occasions when I
11 wasn’t paid back.
12 ADV NEL: You see, I understand that
13 you’d look to the attorney in the normal circumstances
14 where the property transfer goes through, and I know that
15 there are occasions where property transfers to through and
16 the attorneys don’t pay you for whatever reason, but the
17 example you gave, as being part of the reasons why you were
18 – why bridging solutions was suffering, can’t be a good
19 example.
20 DR GRIEVE: No, it’s –
21 ADV NEL: What I’m saying to you is, the
22 property was never transferred, so the seller always owed
23 you that obligation, didn’t he?
24 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
25 ADV NEL: Now, did you go and collect

Page 118
1 from the seller when that happened?
2 DR GRIEVE: I’d have to think about that?
3 ADV NEL: But, Dr Grieve, if you didn’t –
4 DR GRIEVE: We have tried, we did surely
5 try, yes.
6 ADV NEL: You made an attempt to –
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: Paragraph 12.21 on page 12, you
9 say, “”The applicant’s business dealings are so intertwined
10 with each other, that even I have difficulty in dissecting
11 the business dealings,” that’s correct. We’ve already
12 heard from you why that was. You treated all the entities
13 as essentially yourself.
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, thinking back, do
16 you think you were negligent in your dealings with these
17 entities?
18 DR GRIEVE: The term negligence is a very
19 strong term and I felt that, in a way, that it was still
20 going okay and I think towards the end when we started
21 getting bad deals coming through and we started having
22 trouble, then it became difficult to find out exactly why,
23 and that stuff, but I don’t think initially I was
24 negligent, I just didn’t, at that stage, see that it was
25 necessary to split the entities as such. In retrospect
Page 119
1 now, yes, but at that stage, no.
2 ADV NEL: So you say it all went well if
3 you were still operating and you didn’t draw any
4 distinction between these entities, do you think that would
5 be okay?
6 DR GRIEVE: Well, I was trying to head
7 towards the distinction at that stage and we were trying to
8 find, as you’ll be aware of, it’ll come out again later, we
9 were trying to find a new corporate funder and obviously if
10 that guy did come on board, we would have had to make the
11 full distinction. So –
12 ADV NEL: But, Dr Grieve, when Presidium
13 came on board and advanced you money in terms of the credit
14 facility agreement, they advanced it to a particular legal
15 entity, Bridging Solutions.
16 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
17 ADV NEL: So there was already a
18 distinction at that stage.
19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 ADV NEL: But as far as you were
21 concerned and from what you’ve just told us, you personally
22 drew no distinction?
23 DR GRIEVE: That be true, with exception
24 when we were dealing with Presidium, we – that normally –
25 not normally, I believe that all flowed through Bridging
Page 120
1 Solutions.
2 ADV NEL: You see, that’s really the
3 point, Dr Grieve, because to the outside world, you held
4 out as being separate entities, but to yourself you
5 regarded them all as one. You regarded them as being you,
6 not so?
7 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
8 ADV NEL: SO there were distinctions, you
9 simply didn’t follow those distinctions. Would you agree?
10 DR GRIEVE: That there are distinctions,
11 yes.
12 ADV NEL: And that you didn’t follow
13 them?
14 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I’ll have to concede
15 that, yes.
16 COMMISSIONER: So how is that not
17 negligence, forgive me?
18 DR GRIEVE: Negligent or – I don’t know.
19 COMMISSIONER: Would you say negligence
20 is a strong word?
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I think that –
22 COMMISSIONER: Which word would you
23 choose?
24 DR GRIEVE: A mistake, mismanagement
25 perhaps, but negligence is very strong.
Page 121
1 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. You may
2 proceed.
3 ADV NEL: Thank you, Ma’am. Would you
4 regard it – your conduct as being reckless?
5 DR GRIEVE: Which conduct are you
6 referring to?
7 ADV NEL: The conduct of drawing no
8 distinction between separate legal entities that you’ve
9 held out to the outside world as being separate legal
10 entities –
11 DR GRIEVE: As reckless?
12 ADV NEL: Yes.
13 DR GRIEVE: I wasn’t of that opinion, no.
14 ADV NEL: Now, I’d like you to, in that
15 bundle in front of you, turn to page 38. Are you there?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: That’s an application by
18 William Grieve to have Dr DS Grieve Bridging Solutions
19 Limited placed under winding up or liquidation. You’re
20 aware of that application?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: In no – was Dr William Grieve,
23 is your stepbrother or half brother?
24 DR GRIEVE: Half brother, yes.
25 ADV NEL: Now, your own half brother saw

Page 122
1 a distinction between you and Bridging Solutions, do you
2 accept that?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: This application that was
5 launched, ultimately resulted in an order granted on the
6 25th of February 2010 in terms of which Bridging Solutions
7 was wound up. You’ll find that order at page 34, sorry,
8 just back a couple of pages.
9 [10:15] ADV NEL: Do you accept that that’s what
10 occurred?
11 DR GRIEVE: I’m actually looking at this
12 now. I am a little confused. I was actually under another
13 impression here. I was actually under the impression that
14 it had been wound up before this, now I’m actually a little
15 bit confused. Can I ask some commentary from – I don’t
16 know it I may, but the liquidator, can he help me on this
17 one?
18 ADV NEL: Let me try and assist you and
19 if I can’t –
20 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, I’m a bit confused
21 now, because I know there was an application –
22 COMMISSIONER: Gentlemen, one at a time,
23 please. Let Mr Nel finish his sentence and you’ll be given
24 an opportunity to reply. Thank you, Mr Nel?
25 ADV NEL: Thank you, Madam. Sorry, Dr
Page 123
1 Grieve, I just want to assist you by telling you my
2 understanding of what occurred. An application was
3 launched, on the company’s behalf – Bridging Solutions
4 behalf, for a voluntary winding up of that entity.
5 DR GRIEVE: Mm.
6 ADV NEL: At about the same time, this
7 compulsory application of a compulsory winding up was
8 launched by William Grieve. The application was then
9 modified because the Bridging Solutions was wound up on a
10 voluntary basis and that application was opposed to the
11 extent that William Grieve was not prepared to accept that
12 that company should be wound up on a voluntary basis. A
13 court order was then agreed between your attorney and
14 William Grieve’s attorney so that this court order which
15 I’ve shown you now, could be made an order of court,
16 because if you look at paragraph 2 of that court order, a
17 special resolution was taken, presumably by yourself, as
18 the only director of Bridging Solutions, to wind up
19 Bridging Solutions and that was converted to a final
20 compulsory winding up. Does that assist you?
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja, it does. I’m still a bit
22 flabbergasted, because it wasn’t my original understanding,
23 but it’s fair.
24 COMMISSIONER: Okay.
25 ADV NEL: Is this – you now, you say
Page 124
1 you’re flabbergasted, is this not something that was
2 discussed with you by your legal representative?
3 DR GRIEVE: This happened in end of 2009
4 and as far as I recall, we did the application on all –
5 this is just sort of very quick my understanding of it, we
6 did the application on all, and somebody put an objection
7 in on that and that wasn’t somebody driving this inquiry,
8 it was somebody else, and then we redid the application on
9 an individual basis and that was, according to my
10 understanding, was successful, and I know that William
11 Grieve was also busy with something, but I was not aware
12 that he had an effect in the process we had already
13 started, so it is a bit news to me, ja.
14 ADV NEL: Just to assist you, your
15 understanding is to some extent correct in the sense that
16 the company was initially wound up, Bridging Solutions by
17 way of a special resolution, which I refer to as a
18 voluntary winding up.
19 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
20 ADV NEL: But the creditors, an in
21 particular William Grieve, wasn’t satisfied that the
22 company should be wound up by way of a special resolution
23 and he brought an application in February 2010 for a
24 compulsory winding up. The result of that type of winding
25 up is that you can have different types of inquiry,
Page 125
1 including this particular inquiry, and your legal
2 representative agreed with William Grieve’s representative
3 that it should be modified so that a section 417 and
4 section 418 inquiry could be held and that this order,
5 which I’ve shown you, which you’ve got in front of you, was
6 then in effect taken by agreement.
7 DR GRIEVE: I’m aware of the inquiry as
8 such and I know that was discussed. In terms of the
9 documentation, I wasn’t totally up to speed with that, but
10 I think, not to sound derogative, but it’s irrelevant, the
11 fact of the matter is, I was aware there was an inquiry, we
12 have no problem with the inquiry and we agreed to that and
13 if this is the result of that, well, I, in retrospect,
14 assume I was informed. I just wasn’t aware of the actual
15 paperwork.
17 DR GRIEVE: But that’s fine.
18 ADV NEL: I’d like to refer you to that
19 affidavit deposed to by William Grieve, if you turn to page
20 48, William states that, “Early in 2009, David,” that’s
21 you, “approached me with a proposal to invest in a business
22 he had quite successfully established.” Do you want to
23 comment on that sentence? Do you accept it?
24 DR GRIEVE: No comment.
25 ADV NEL: He then carries on, “By all

Page 126
1 accounts, the business was simple and viable, offering safe
2 and secure investment products and returns.” Do you agree
3 with that?
4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 ADV NEL: He says, “At first I was very
6 reluctant to consider any investment in what I perceived to
7 be a high risk investment zone. David assured me that the
8 country had changed in many ways, with crime and violence
9 receiving priority attention from government authorities
10 and agencies.” Is that what you assured him?
11 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall having discussed crime
12 and violence per se, but the rest I’m comfortable with, ja.
13 ADV NEL: He then says, after
14 unequivocally guaranteeing all investments and reassuring
15 me that he would personally settled any financial loss
16 suffered by me, I agreed to advance an initial amount of
17 £100 000.” Is that a correct statement?
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: He says, “Reserve Bank approval
20 for the advance of this loan was obtained on 8 April 2009
21 and the amount was advanced by way of transfer from my bank
22 account in the United Kingdom on 14 April 2009.” That is
23 what occurred, is it?
24 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall dates, but,
25 yes, it was what occurred.
Page 127
1 ADV NEL: Okay, I’m going to refer you –
2 Madam Commissioner, I just need a moment to find –
3 COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course.
4 ADV NEL: Got it, yip, I’ve got it.
5 Madam Commissioner, we’re just going to make a copy of the
6 document, I don’t know if you want to – maybe we can have a
7 short adjournment?
8 COMMISSIONER: Yes, let’s just stand down
9 for a few minutes and then once we all the documents in
10 front of me, we can just see. Thank you very much.
11 ADV NEL: Thank you very much.
12 [INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES]
13 [10:34] COMMISSIONER: Back on record, thank you
14 very much – we’re back on record. Dr Grieve, just to
15 confirm, you're still bound by your oath of this morning.
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. And are you
18 still comfortable talking to us without legal
19 representation?
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. And
22 you will bring it to my attention if you are not?
23 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
24 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
25 Okay, do we have the documentation?
Page 128
1 ADV NEL: Yes we do, Madam Commissioner.
2 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, let's proceed.
3 ADV NEL: Thank you. Dr Grieve, while
4 that documentation is just being numbered, I just want to
5 ask you a brief question. I understand that you have a
6 masters of business administration degree, is that correct?
7 DR GRIEVE: That is correct, Ja. Only
8 recently obtained.
9 ADV NEL: When did you obtain that
10 qualification?
11 DR GRIEVE: I think the graduation was
12 April of this year. I'm not 100% sure of that date. Give
13 or take a month.
14 ADV NEL: No that’s fine. When did you
15 commence those studies?
16 DR GRIEVE: We’re now 2010, 2008.
17 ADV NEL: And from which institution did
18 you obtain the qualification?
19 DR GRIEVE: GIBBS.
20 ADV NEL: Is that the Gordon Institute of
21 Business Science?
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
23 ADV NEL: While we – you will recall we
24 dealt with that application launched by yourself on behalf
25 of all those various entities to liquidate them, I'm going
Page 129
1 to ask you to just quickly go back to page 10 for me.
2 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
3 ADV NEL: In 12.9 you said, and I'm going
4 to leave out the brackets again. “I used the second
5 applicant and the other applicants to lend out money as a
6 bridging finance and invest part of the profits in
7 immovable property.” Is that correct?
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: And in 12.11 you said, “I used
10 part of the profit to buy properties and develop them for
11 the purpose of re-selling it for a further profit.” Is
12 that correct?
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 ADV NEL: What I understand from that is,
15 you only used the profits of these entities to purchase the
16 immovable property. Is that correct?
17 DR GRIEVE: Initially that would have
18 been correct. I would have taken some of my own capital
19 out at some stage to help fund the actual development
20 company as well.
21 ADV NEL: When you say, I would have
22 taken some of my own capital out, what do you mean by that?
23 DR GRIEVE: We were referring at some
24 stage approximately R5 million. I used some of that to
25 help finance my bridging – sorry, my developments as well.

Page 130
1 ADV NEL: But that R5 million that you
2 told us earlier was your own money from bonds?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: But it wasn’t money that
5 emanated from any of these legal entities that are
6 described as applicants in the application?
7 DR GRIEVE: I don’t think so, no.
8 COMMISSIONER: You don’t think so?
9 DR GRIEVE: It’s a difficult one, because
10 towards the end when we started to hit stress I did move
11 money left and right trying just to survive at that stage.
12 So in the last three months it went quite rough and Ja, I
13 mean prior to that I think that would be true, but I mean
14 in the last bit it was very rough. We were waiting for a
15 new corporate funder and that just didn’t arrive. Ja, the
16 pressure was huge.
17 COMMISSIONER: Sorry, Mr Nel, if I can
18 just interrupt you. So you are saying that was is said
19 here in the two paragraphs that you’ve just been referred
20 to, that is not strictly correct? Is that how I understand
21 your evidence, because you say it’s a -
22 DR GRIEVE: It might not have been
23 strictly correct.
24 COMMISSIONER: Are you happy with that,
25 Mr Nel?
Page 131
1 ADV NEL: Yes, thank you, Madam
2 Commissioner.
3 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, you may
4 proceed.
5 ADV NEL: Let's move on to the
6 documentation that’s been handed to you. Madam
7 Commissioner, my understanding is that it’s been marked as
8 Exhibit B.
9 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, and it has been
10 paginated with – it’s the last page, its 19 pages, and I
11 see exhibits are at the end, so that will be – oh I see
12 exactly. You just slotted it in our first bundle right at
13 the end with the folder marked “Exhibits.” Thank you very
14 much.
15 ADV NEL: Thank you. Dr Grieve, I'm
16 going to ask you to turn straight to page 6 of that bundle
17 given to you.
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: You have that in front of you.
20 That’s a document, I would call it an agreement, it’s
21 described as a legal and binding contract entered into
22 between William Lesley Grieve, who’s defined as the lender
23 and Bridging Solutions that’s Dr Grieve Bridging Solutions
24 (Pty) Ltd, that’s defined as the borrower.
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes correct.
Page 132
1 ADV NEL: Under the heading Purpose of
2 the loan, it says, “The purpose of this loan is for the
3 sole purpose and application of investments in the bridging
4 finance sector of the business, known as Bridging
5 Solutions. This contract now replaces the one signed on
6 the 23rd of March 2009, with the omission of the raising fee
7 referred to in the previous agreement. This agreement then
8 also cancels the previous agreement.” So this was the
9 final binding agreement. Is that incorrect?
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: And correct that the purpose
12 was solely for the application of investment, would you
13 agree with that?
14 DR GRIEVE: That’s what it says, yes.
15 ADV NEL: You signed this document, Dr
16 Grieve?
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 ADV NEL: So you agree with the contents
19 thereof?
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: In the next one, Payment of
22 loan to borrower.
23 DR GRIEVE: Which page are we on?
24 ADV NEL: Still at page 6.
25 DR GRIEVE: I just want to get there
Page 133
1 again, sorry. Yes.
2 ADV NEL: In the end of Clause 2 it says,
3 “The loan will made in a single telex transfer from Natwest
4 Bank in Jersey, Channel Islands to,” and then it sets out
5 the account details of Bridging Solutions – 083186789. Do
6 you know what account that is with the Standard Bank?
7 DR GRIEVE: Well I can recollect this,
8 because I'd made a mistake on this agreement if this is the
9 right one. I can't recollect the account numbers, but I
10 can recollect the incident. It’s actually incorporated
11 into account number if I have the right agreement in front
12 of me.
13 COMMISSIONER: Well, you’ve just said to
14 Mr Nel that this is the correct agreement.
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes, but there were three
16 agreements, so I can't remember which one that had the
17 mistake on it.
18 COMMISSIONER: Dr Grieve, forgive me, but
19 I need to remind you that you are under oath. If you are
20 unsure please tell Mr Nel. Don’t answer a question under
21 oath, because I do not want to bring perjury charges
22 against you. Okay.
23 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, let me just help you
24 before you answer, I'm trying to assist you. If you turn
25 to page 10 –

Page 134
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: - that’s the second agreement.
3 You will see in the middle of the page it also says,
4 Bridging Solutions, account number 083186789.
5 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
6 ADV NEL: So it’s the same as the first
7 one, and then if you turn to page 14, that’s the third
8 agreement, and then on the middle of the page there,
9 account number 083186788 – sorry, 778.
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: Do you see that?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 ADV NEL: So the third one is different
14 to the first two?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: Okay. So which one is wrong?
17 DR GRIEVE: I'm under oath so I actually
18 need those accounts in front of me to make sure.
19 COMMISSIONER: We can assist you.
20 DR GRIEVE: But I'm fairly confident, and
21 if they disagree, can they correct me without being in
22 trouble?
23 COMMISSIONER: You can.
24 DR GRIEVE: Okay. The first two – it’s
25 alright, I think its okay. The first two were incorporated
Page 135
1 alright. Have I got it the wrong way around?
2 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, as I said to you
3 earlier, it’s not a witch hunt, so whoever is trying to
4 assist you is not trying to catch you out.
5 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I can't remember the
6 account numbers.
7 COMMISSIONER: Okay, then rather refresh
8 your memory.
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja. Okay. Then in terms of
10 the third one, is also the third contract in order.
11 ADV NEL: Yes.
12 DR GRIEVE: Okay ja, then I got that one
13 wrong.
14 ADV NEL: Ja. So the third one is the
15 account number for GS Grieve Incorporated?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: You're happy with that?
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: Okay. Now, back to the first
20 one. Whose account is that?
21 DR GRIEVE: The first one?
22 ADV NEL: Yes. 083186789, Standard Bank.
23 DR GRIEVE: I would have to look at the
24 bridging account number now, as under oath I can't remember
25 the account numbers.
Page 136
1 COMMISSIONER: Okay we will assist you.
2 Mr Laher will assist you, let's just give him an
3 opportunity.
4 DR GRIEVE: I just remember there was a
5 mistake with these bank details. I do recollect that.
6 ADV NEL: That’s fine.
8 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I have no idea what
9 account number this is. That was a mistake or a typing
10 error of sorts, and I do not know these accounts.
11 ADV NEL: Okay, you’ve been shown the
12 bank accounts with Standard Bank and ABSA and it’s none of
13 those accounts?
14 DR GRIEVE: No.
15 ADV NEL: Am I right?
17 ADV NEL: Where was this money
18 transferred, Dr Grieve?
19 DR GRIEVE: Where or when, sorry?
20 ADV NEL: Where was it transferred? Into
21 who’s account?
22 DR GRIEVE: I'd have to go and have a
23 look at the records, I'm going from memory. I think it
24 landed up in Incorporated.
25 ADV NEL: Okay. This amount of £100 000
Page 137
1 at the time equated to a Rand value of 1 33 255 00. Do you
2 accept that?
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 ADV NEL: And according to the records,
5 you received that on the 8th of April 2009. Do you agree
6 with that?
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes. The date I don’t know,
8 but I did receive it thereabouts.
10 ADV NEL: The bank records show that on
11 the 9th of April, the next day, an amount 1 200 000 was
12 transferred to your personal account. Do you recall that?
13 DR GRIEVE: I made no distinction between
14 the accounts as we've already said, so yes.
15 ADV NEL: Why did you transfer it to your
16 personal account?
17 DR GRIEVE: There was no – I can't really
18 answer that, because there is no specific reason, I paid
19 people from any account – we’ve already sort of discussed
20 that, and I can't really give an answer on it.
21 COMMISSIONER: No but hang on. Let's
22 just take it slowly. You got the money into an account, we
23 think it’s the Incorporated Account, why don’t you just pay
24 the money from that account? You say you paid people, so
25 I'm trying to understand your answer.

Page 138
1 DR GRIEVE: I would have paid people that
2 might not necessarily – let me just try and phrase it, that
3 perhaps not might have been as a term creditors from the –
4 of the Incorporated, so I would have paid them out of my
5 private account.
6 ADV NEL: But you just said one – half a
7 minute ago that you paid from any account?
8 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I know. But we were
9 trying to start picking it, but I mean obviously it was
10 still very confused and it was a bit of a mess yes.
11 ADV NEL: Ja. What was the purpose of
12 this 1,3 million? According to the agreement it was for
13 investment purposes. What did you intend to do with it?
14 DR GRIEVE: Well, to help the bridging
15 business and myself just to survive until we got the
16 replacement funding. It was the pressure we were having
17 from Presidium.
18 ADV NEL: And when you say to survive,
19 what did you actually earmark this money for?
20 DR GRIEVE: I can't recall, which was the
21 date? Let's just look at this thing?
22 ADV NEL: This was paid to you in April
23 2010, beginning of –
24 COMMISSIONER: 2009.
25 ADV NEL: Sorry 2009, I apologise. Thank
Page 139
1 you, Madam Commissioner.
2 COMMISSIONER: Pleasure.
3 ADV NEL: April 2009 – early part.
4 DR GRIEVE: And the question is, what did
5 I use the money for?
6 ADV NEL: What did you intend to use the
7 money for? What did you earmark it for?
8 DR GRIEVE: I intended to use it for
9 bridging and to help with the development as well.
10 DR GRIEVE: Okay. And when you say
11 bridging, which part of the bridging did you intend to
12 utilise it for?
13 DR GRIEVE: Which part of the bridging?
14 ADV NEL: Was it meant for more bridging,
15 was it meant to cover debts you already had? Was it meant
16 to purchase something, what did you need it for?
17 DR GRIEVE: To ultimately try and grow
18 the bridging.
19 ADV NEL: Okay. So it was an investment
20 into the bridging as your brother saw it?
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 ADV NEL: Ja. So what we've now
23 established is that, it didn’t matter which account money
24 went into, it was all the same to you?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 140
1 ADV NEL: Despite that, we think it went
2 into the account of D Grieve, Incorporated, of the 1,3
3 million you transferred 1,2 million to your own account,
4 we've established that.
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 ADV NEL: You then transferred 900 000
7 from your own account to the account of Bridging Solutions
8 on the same day, 9 April. Do you recall that?
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
10 ADV NEL: Why did you do that?
11 DR GRIEVE: Ultimately I believe that’s
12 where I wanted the bulk of the money.
13 ADV NEL: So why not transfer it directly
14 from D Grieve Incorporated to Bridging Solutions?
15 DR GRIEVE: My thinking at the time was
16 that I was trying to start fixing the – what's the term we
17 used now? The mixing of accounts and the like, so I felt
18 ultimately we need to try and put this onto the books
19 somehow and I thought it might be easier for me
20 individually to have a loan account with each entity than
21 to try and figure out a loan accounts between the different
22 entities, and that was my thinking at the time.
23 COMMISSIONER: Sorry, but I don’t
24 understand that.
25 DR GRIEVE: I can try and rephrase it,
Page 141
1 but its just in terms of trying to keep records if you
2 transfer it between all the different companies, you have a
3 whole load of inter-company loan accounts that you’ve got
4 to try and chart on your books, and if its through my
5 account then its – each entity then just has a loan account
6 as me instead of an inter-company loan account on the
7 books.
8 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, can I suggest to you
9 that a far simpler method would have simply been to
10 transfer the full 1,3 million to Bridging Solutions,
11 wouldn’t that have been simpler?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes, it would have been
13 simpler.
14 ADV NEL: That’s what it was meant for,
15 wasn’t it? This money was meant for Bridging Solutions.
16 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
17 ADV NEL: So you're now telling us that
18 what you thought was simple, was to take money that was
19 advanced to Bridging Solutions, you got that money, you
20 transferred it into DS Grieve Incorporated. From DS Grieve
21 Incorporated to yourself, and then from yourself a portion
22 of it to Bridging Solutions, and that seemed to you to be
23 simpler. Is that what you're saying?
24 DR GRIEVE: I wouldn’t say it seemed to
25 be simpler, it’s what I did.

Page 142
1 ADV NEL: Now, let me ask you again. Why
2 did you do that?
3 DR GRIEVE: I've tried to explain it as
4 well as I can.
5 ADV NEL: But do you agree with me that
6 logic tells you, it should have gone directly to Bridging
7 Solutions?
8 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
9 ADV NEL: So you defied the logic, now
10 can you explain why you defied logic?
11 DR GRIEVE: I was trying to simplify it.
12 I know you disagree with that, but that was my thinking at
13 the time.
14 ADV NEL: It’s not whether I disagree,
15 I'm just trying to get an understanding.
16 DR GRIEVE: That’s what I did at the end
17 of the day.
18 ADV NEL: Okay. Can I ask you why you
19 didn’t transfer the full amount of 1,3 million to Bridging
20 Solutions?
21 DR GRIEVE: Because I would have needed
22 to cover some of my liabilities in my private capacity as
23 well.
24 ADV NEL: This money wasn’t meant for you
25 in your private capacity was it?
Page 143
1 DR GRIEVE: No.
2 ADV NEL: What then happens to this money
3 is the, 900 000 that you transferred to Bridging Solutions
4 you then use and pay Presidium. Is that correct?
5 DR GRIEVE: There was a payment to
6 Presidium Ja. If it was that money directly I can't
7 necessarily recall, but Ja, I can accept that.
8 ADV NEL: It all took place on the same
9 day, on the 9th of April.
10 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
11 ADV NEL: During the last inquiry, Mr
12 Laher suggested to you that it appeared to be a case of
13 borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. You disagreed with him
14 at the time.
15 [10:54] It certainly seems to be that was what actually
16 occurred here and that it was an accurate statement. Would
17 you agree now?
18 DR GRIEVE: I still don’t agree. And I
19 can try and explain it. I just can’t necessarily recall
20 exact numbers. But in principle I would have had some
21 sized debtors book on that specific time and I would have
22 had some payment due to Presidium. And I would have made
23 that payment to Presidium, but I would still have had my
24 debtors’ book earning the money as well. So I don’t see
25 that as borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, simply for the
Page 144
1 fact that I may have paid Presidium but then suddenly I
2 didn’t have to pay them out of the proceeds from the next
3 collection.
4 ADV NEL: You see, Dr Grieve, I
5 specifically asked you just now and gave you an
6 opportunity. I said to you what was this money earmarked
7 for? What was the intention? You said to me it was to
8 grow the business, grow the investment business. But on
9 the very day you get it whatever Bridging Solutions got
10 that day you immediately transferred to Presidium.
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 ADV NEL: So it was to pay a debt, wasn’t
13 it?
14 DR GRIEVE: To pay an account with
15 Presidium, yes. But once again I’m going to say it again
16 as well. I understand what you’re saying. That is true,
17 yes. But we still had a book that was earning at that
18 stage. And that earning I feel was good at that stage.
19 ADV NEL: But how could it be earmarked
20 to grow something? You knew -
21 DR GRIEVE: But paying it then you’ve got
22 this bulk of money that’s earning. So you’re paying them a
23 part but this thing is still earning, so you just owe them
24 less and you’re growing on the side. So I still felt at
25 that stage that I was earning, and it was fine and it would
Page 145
1 help grow it.
2 ADV NEL: I understand the concept that
3 if you pay your debtors, sorry your creditors, that
4 whatever money you’re going to get coming in from whatever
5 source you don’t have to pay those creditors again and that
6 money would be some sort of profit.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes. And it would have been
8 cheaper.
9 ADV NEL: Yes, but you’ve loaned this
10 money.
11 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
12 ADV NEL: To pay Presidium.
13 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
14 ADV NEL: That’s why I’m asking you, what
15 was the purpose of getting the R1.3 million from William
16 Grieve?
17 DR GRIEVE: To grow the business. And by
18 doing that his rate was lower than what Presidium’s rate
19 was, so I would be better off by immediately deploying his
20 money by settling a part of Presidium because they were the
21 most expensive source of finance.
22 ADV NEL: So then your intention, I
23 understand it’s to grow the business ultimately, but when
24 you obtained the money the intention was to use it to pay
25 Presidium.

Page 146
1 DR GRIEVE: In that context, yes.
2 ADV NEL: Because you knew of the
3 Presidium indebtedness at that time already.
4 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
5 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, when did Bridging
6 Solutions start experiencing financial difficulties?
7 DR GRIEVE: We had a hiccup earlier in
8 the year when Presidium had made a certain pledge to
9 increase their funding to me and I lent out on a couple of
10 large transactions based on a promise which never came to
11 fruition. They promised me an additional R5 million in
12 funding and that did not happen. So we had a bit of a
13 hiccup around about April. That’s when William came and
14 helped us out. Then it improved for a short space of time,
15 and then Presidium started to get uptight and they wanted
16 their money back. And there was a lot of pressure, and I
17 tried to find a replacement funder. And we believed we had
18 found such a replacement funder, and the rest you know I
19 believe.
20 ADV NEL: So you say the short answer of
21 course is earlier in 2009.
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
23 ADV NEL: Can you put a month to that?
24 DR GRIEVE: That’s quite difficult. No,
25 I can’t recall a specific month, no. Around about April we
Page 147
1 were in pressure, but ja.
2 ADV NEL: Did you tell William that what
3 you needed his money for?
4 DR GRIEVE: I can’t remember what we
5 discussed in detail. There were lots of discussions. I
6 know at some stage we did discuss that I needed to pay
7 Presidium a large amount of money. I can’t tell you when
8 we discussed that.
9 ADV NEL: Okay. You will recall I read
10 to you from page 48 of that bundle in front of you, and you
11 agreed with the contents of paragraph 17. Do you remember
12 that?
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
14 ADV NEL: There William says you
15 approached him with a proposal to invest in a business.
16 “It was simple and viable offering safe and secure
17 investment products and returns. I agreed to advance an
18 initial amount of £100 000.” This was as far as he was
19 concerned for investment, not to help you settle your debt.
20 You accepted what he said, not so?
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 ADV NEL: So you’re now saying that you
23 may or may not have told him what you wanted to use his
24 money for. Let me ask you again. Did you tell William
25 what you were going to use this £100 000 for?
Page 148
1 DR GRIEVE: To grow the business, ja.
2 ADV NEL: Is that what you told him?
3 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
4 ADV NEL: Did you tell him that you were
5 going to use it to settle Bridging Solutions’ indebtedness
6 to Presidium?
7 DR GRIEVE: I don’t believe I did, no.
8 May I add?
9 ADV NEL: Certainly.
10 DR GRIEVE: I’m repeating myself again
11 because it’s the same question, but by doing what I did I
12 felt at that point in time that it was a cheaper rate of
13 finance that I obtained from Bill and that would actually
14 improve my profit margin on the book as it was.
15 COMMISSIONER: That was your thinking.
16 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
17 COMMISSIONER: You did not specifically
18 inform him of that?
19 DR GRIEVE: No.
20 COMMISSIONER: Please may I interrupt? I
21 know I’m being extremely fickle, but now the air-con is not
22 on. Can we just put it a bit colder?
23 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, can you recall when
24 Bridging Solutions defaulted on the credit facility
25 agreement with Presidium?
Page 149
1 DR GRIEVE: I can’t remember the first
2 default, no.
3 ADV NEL: I’m going to ask you to turn to
4 page 170. It’s not the document bundle you’ve got in front
5 of you. It’s a bundle marked exhibit 2. If you look
6 behind you to the left you should see a file with a blue
7 flag on it with number 2.
8 DR GRIEVE: Page number again?
9 ADV NEL: 170. Do you have that page?
10 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
11 ADV NEL: That’s an email from yourself
12 to Roanna Verinder.
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 ADV NEL: Who I understand is a
15 representative of Presidium. Is that correct?
16 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
17 ADV NEL: Do you know her precise
18 position?
19 DR GRIEVE: No. She’s – no, I don’t.
20 ADV NEL: It says in the first paragraph,
21 “As we can see by the returns we have had a very slow month
22 on the returns. We have written another three bar with my
23 own funds.” That I assume means that you’ve used R3 million
24 of your own money. Is that right?
25 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall exactly what I

Page 150
1 had written at that stage so I’m -
2 ADV NEL: That’s written down here. “I
3 have written another three bar with my own funds.” What
4 does that mean then?
5 DR GRIEVE: It means I’d lent more money
6 out. I don’t think it was three bar. I think that’s an
7 exaggeration. And at that stage I wasn’t able to make a
8 payment at that point in time because we had a string of
9 large deals out in the field that they had signed off on as
10 well, and I wasn’t able to make that payment at that point.
11 ADV NEL: But you say there, “I have
12 written another three bar with own funds.” What does that
13 mean, your personal money?
14 DR GRIEVE: It means not their funds.
15 That’s what it means.
16 ADV NEL: “And am a bit short on my
17 interest payment for this Monday.” Is that correct? So
18 based on what you’ve just told us, when you wrote this
19 email you were already in arrears. Am I right?
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 ADV NEL: And that’s dated the 2nd
22 February 2009.
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: This R3 million that you wrote,
25 I assume that what you did with that is you advanced monies
Page 151
1 for bridging finance.
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: In the name of which entity did
4 you do that?
5 DR GRIEVE: If there was an agreement
6 signed for it, it would have been in Bridging. Where the
7 money was paid for I would not necessarily know.
8 ADV NEL: And if no agreement was signed?
9 DR GRIEVE: Then it wasn’t done.
10 ADV NEL: But it must have been because
11 you say here, “I have written another three bar.”
12 DR GRIEVE: I would have lent something
13 out. I don’t know if it was three bar, no. Like I say,
14 that might have been an exaggeration.
15 ADV NEL: And exaggeration by how much,
16 Dr Grieve?
17 DR GRIEVE: I have no idea.
18 ADV NEL: Let’s turn to page 171. At the
19 end of the first paragraph you say, “But I am still
20 stretched and can only pay the interest when this comes
21 in.” And that’s dated the 5th February 2009.
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
23 ADV NEL: So still in arrears at that
24 point.
25 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
Page 152
1 ADV NEL: Page 172, the last sentence in
2 the first paragraph. “I should then be able to make my
3 late payment.” So in arrears as at the 12th February 2009.
4 I ask you to turn to page 176. You promised to make a
5 payment before that Friday. Is that correct?
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
7 ADV NEL: In the same sentence you say,
8 “As long as the parties that have committed do not have any
9 hold-ups.” Can you tell us what that means?
10 DR GRIEVE: I was obviously waiting for
11 deals to return on my debtors’ book at that point in time.
12 And I was following up as well as I could on the people
13 that owed me. And I had obviously received some indication
14 that some of them would return funds by that Friday.
15 ADV NEL: And when you say parties are
16 those just debtors?
17 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
18 ADV NEL: Can I ask you to go back to
19 page 173? This is an email from Mr Bungy to yourself. It
20 says, “Dear David, thank you once again for the
21 notification.” That’s in response to the other email we
22 just dealt with. “As much as I know you are being
23 transparent etc. we are starting to hear alarm bells in
24 the distance. Please keep us posted as soon as there is
25 any news, good or bad.” Is that correct?
Page 153
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: So at that time already there
3 were some difficulties between yourself and Presidium.
4 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
5 ADV NEL: When I say yourself I
6 apologise. Bridging Solutions and Presidium. Page 175,
7 the 25th February 2009, you write again. You say, “I do not
8 have anything new to report at this stage.” Next sentence,
9 “My interest payments are also as discussed on the phone
10 going to be a bit late.” So still in arrears as at the 25th
11 February. Turn to page 179 please. 16th March 2009.
12 You’re writing once again to Presidium, and you say, “I
13 should pay one interest instalment by Thursday and then the
14 next one by Friday or Monday.” Is that correct?
15 DR GRIEVE: That’s what I’ve written
16 here, yes.
17 ADV NEL: So by 16th March 2009 you still
18 hadn’t paid your interest payment that had already been due
19 at the beginning of February.
20 COMMISSIONER: You have to say yes or no.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: Page 180, 12th March. Sorry, a
23 little bit out of sequence there. But you say, “I’ll send
24 you another update this afternoon regarding my interest
25 payment.” The essence is by this stage you hadn’t yet paid

Page 154
1 any interest. Correct?
2 DR GRIEVE: Correct.
3 ADV NEL: If you can go to page 183. In
4 the middle there Roanna writes to you and says, “As
5 discussed on the phone St John is feeling nervous about the
6 book as we haven’t seen any cash flow for the last couple
7 of months. St John and I have discussed moving the
8 meeting, and feel that if we see cash, at least enough to
9 cover the outstanding interest, come back by the beginning
10 of next week, Monday/Tuesday, we would be comfortable
11 moving the meeting to the following week. However, if not
12 we would prefer to see you and go through the book on
13 Thursday.” You received that email?
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
15 ADV NEL: And you respond the same day
16 five minutes later by saying, “Fantastic. You will see the
17 interest.”
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: Where were you going to get the
20 interest money from?
21 DR GRIEVE: At that stage I was still
22 following up on a string of big deals and I was hoping that
23 that stuff would come through as well.
24 ADV NEL: Page 185. That’s an email from
25 Presidium to yourself and referring you to attached letter
Page 155
1 of notice. Remember receiving this?
2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 ADV NEL: It says, “This letter serves to
4 notify you of a potential event of default under the
5 facility agreement.” If we turn to the next page that is
6 the formal notice.
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: In paragraph 1 you referred to
9 all the emails and phone calls from the 2nd February to the
10 20th March 2009. And Presidium records that Bridging
11 Solutions advised Presidium that it was unable to make
12 interest payments for January and subsequently for
13 February. Do you accept that that’s correct?
14 DR GRIEVE: I accept it.
15 ADV NEL: And in paragraph 3 you are
16 advised that Presidium is of the opinion that a materially
17 adverse event as defined in the agreement has occurred and
18 the ability of Bridging Solutions to perform its
19 obligations has been impaired. In clause 4 they tell you
20 that this constitutes an event of default.
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: Do you accept that Bridging
23 Solutions was in default of the credit facility agreement
24 at the time?
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 156
1 ADV NEL: If I can ask you to turn to
2 page 189. The emails are from top to bottom from newest to
3 oldest. So if you look right at the bottom of the page you
4 will see that email was received on the 26th March at 12:04
5 addressed to you by Presidium.
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
7 ADV NEL: It says -
8 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, what page are you on?
9 189?
10 ADV NEL: 189.
11 DR GRIEVE: Thank you.
12 ADV NEL: If you turn then to page 190
13 you’ll see the contents of the actual email. “It’s
14 recorded that you and Roanna have been communicating
15 regularly regarding the outstanding payments on your loan
16 with us. We appreciate this. I am also aware that you
17 have been issued with a remedy notice which expires on 27th
18 March 2009, after which your loan will officially be in
19 default.” It says, “We have uncovered transactions that
20 lead to these entities being put in liquidation. With the
21 benefit of hindsight the key warning was when interest and
22 regular returning capital payments ceased. Thus we find
23 ourselves in a confidence crisis, both in a general sense
24 and more specifically regarding your book, regarding what
25 has happened.” They then ask you to allow a forensic
Page 157
1 auditor to inspect your books. You remember that?
2 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
3 [11:14] ADV NEL: So as of this date, it appears
4 to me that there was serious difficulties at Bridging
5 Solutions. Would you agree?
6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 ADV NEL: If we go back to page 189,
8 that’s your response. You say in the first paragraph, “Yes
9 I'm aware of your position and understand it fully. I'm
10 still struggling to get my returns into, I would like to
11 ask until Monday to settle the interest if at all
12 possible.” You say, “I am happy to meet Mr Spies the week
13 after next from the 6th of April,” that’s the forensic
14 auditor is it?
15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 ADV NEL: And you say, “I'm embarrassed
17 by the hiccups but I'll do everything I can to correct it.”
18 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
19 ADV NEL: Yes. I'll then ask you to turn
20 to page 192, starting in the middle of the page. This is
21 the 26th of March.
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
23 ADV NEL: You're thanked for your prompt
24 reply, and it says, “If the interest is received on
25 Friday,” that’s the 27th of March, by which in terms of that

Page 158
1 letter you're obliged to pay, “The forensic auditor could
2 start on the 6th of April, if not you’d be in default,” and
3 they then refer you to the relevant clauses of the credit
4 facility agreement. Do you see that?
5 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
6 ADV NEL: One of those provisions is in
7 terms of 16.3.1, is that the credit facility agreement
8 could be terminated immediately forthwith.
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
10 ADV NEL: So dire financial situation for
11 Bridging Solutions not so?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 ADV NEL: For any business that’s faced
14 with a letter like this. You respond as we see from the
15 top of page 192, you say you accept their position
16 essentially.
17 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
18 ADV NEL: So, just to summarise. It’s
19 clear that as the 26th of March when you write all these
20 emails, you’ve receive this litany of correspondence, its
21 clear the Bridging Solutions was in default, and there's
22 clearly some likelihood that the credit facility agreement
23 could be cancelled. You were aware of all of that?
24 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
25 ADV NEL: Isn't it correct that you were
Page 159
1 then completely reliant on this payment of £100 000 by
2 William Grieve?
3 DR GRIEVE: That term completely I think
4 is a bit harsh, no I don’t think so. Yes it did save me at
5 that point in time, I can concede to that, but the position
6 I was in at that stage on the book is that, we had written
7 during the preceding months to the difficulty. I can't
8 remember the exact number, I will have to refer to the
9 audit or whatever. There were a lot of big deals in terms
10 of single large loans out in the field, and what happened
11 was that these loans all ended up taking much longer to
12 come back, and if some of them had started to come back,
13 because while they are out they are still earning the whole
14 time, and if they had come back at any stage, and we had
15 indications and correspondence to the effect that some of
16 them could have come back. If any of them had come back
17 sooner, it would have also taken me out of that predicament
18 in terms of the default. But the fact that Bill is first
19 was absolutely true yes.
20 ADV NEL: So on the 26th of March you were
21 aware that by the next day the 27th, you had to pay two
22 months interest. Am I right?
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 ADV NEL: How much more or less was the
25 interest each month?
Page 160
1 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe, I can't remember now.
2 I think it was – I'd have to go and look now. Just help
3 out here please?
4 ADV NEL: More or less in the region of
5 R400 000?
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
7 ADV NEL: So, at the end of January you
8 were supposed to pay about 400 000?
9 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
10 ADV NEL: At the end of February you had
11 to pay about 800 000?
12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
13 ADV NEL: By the end of March R1,2
14 million.
15 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
16 ADV NEL: Now, by the 27th of March, you
17 had to pay at least R800 000.
18 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
19 ADV NEL: Did you expect returns to come
20 in between the 26th and the 27th to cover R800 000 from what
21 you’ve just explained to us?
22 DR GRIEVE: There were imminent returns.
23 I remember in one of those emails I was referring to an R &
24 B transaction, and I was actually obviously expecting that
25 one to potentially come back, ja.
Page 161
1 COMMISSIONER: Okay. But you're not
2 answering the question. We are looking at least at 800
3 000.
4 DR GRIEVE: That specific transaction, it
5 was one point something, and the interest that had run up
6 on that thing already over months was probably 800 000 as
7 well. So I anticipated that if that did come back it would
8 have rectified it to a large degree, and then there was the
9 hiccup with that transaction, so.
10 ADV NEL: You see, Dr Grieve, what my
11 next question to you was going to be, and you’ve partially
12 answered it. Did any of these envisaged transaction
13 materialise?
14 DR GRIEVE: Not in that time, no.
15 ADV NEL: None at all?
16 DR GRIEVE: No.
17 ADV NEL: So let me ask you again.
18 Weren’t you completely reliant on the £100 000 from William
19 Grieve?
20 DR GRIEVE: In that - yes.
21 ADV NEL: What would have done if you
22 didn’t get this £100 000?
23 DR GRIEVE: I would have had to try my
24 level best to negotiate with Presidium for a bit more time
25 until one of those transactions – one of those large

Page 162
1 transactions that had been out for a while actually did
2 transpire and repay with proceeds.
3 ADV NEL: Let's go back to that agreement
4 concluded between Bridging Solutions and William Grieve.
5 Page 6 of that small bundle, Exhibit B given to you. Can
6 you remember when this agreement was actually signed?
7 DR GRIEVE: In terms of the date? No, I
8 can't remember off hand. It should be on here somewhere.
9 ADV NEL: Well, if you turn to page 8
10 you’ll see it says 8 March 2009.
11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
12 ADV NEL: But we know that that can't be
13 right, because if you go back to page 6 under purpose of
14 the loan it says, “This contract now replaces the one
15 signed on the 23rd of March 2009.” So at the time when you
16 signed this agreement the 23rd of March had come and gone
17 not so?
18 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
19 ADV NEL: So it was somewhere after the
20 23rd of March. Do you accept that?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: And what we do know, is by the
23 26th of March you were well aware of the precarious
24 financial position that Bridging Solutions was in.
25 DR GRIEVE: Precarious yes. I still had
Page 163
1 confidence in two things, and that was that I had concluded
2 a replacement funder as well for Presidium okay, well I
3 believed, which I never realised, but we had signed an
4 agreement for that. And I also believed that at any stage
5 when any of those big loan agreements that had been out
6 started to come back, that the tide would turn and it would
7 immediately improve the situation.
8 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, I understand that
9 that’s what you believed and possibly hoped, but by the 26th
10 you knew by the next day you had to some how find R800 000
11 to pay to your financier. Did you know where that R800 000
12 was going to come from on the 26th?
13 DR GRIEVE: On the 26th?
14 ADV NEL: Yes, you had to pay it by the
15 next day.
16 DR GRIEVE: Obviously at that stage only
17 if Bill’s money – if William’s money had come through I
18 could use that, or if R & B had come through I could have
19 used that.
20 ADV NEL: But at that day you had no
21 money, am I not correct?
22 DR GRIEVE: Correct.
23 ADV NEL: So did you have any idea what
24 you were going to do the next day?
25 DR GRIEVE: Well I was hoping for any of
Page 164
1 those big deals to come through at any stage, as well as
2 Bill to come through, ja.
3 ADV NEL: You wouldn’t call that a
4 precarious financial position that you have to live on
5 hope, that somewhere somehow money is going to come in?
6 DR GRIEVE: I concede to that, ja.
7 ADV NEL: I'll ask you to turn to page
8 199 of that bundle – the lever arch file.
9 COMMISSIONER: Bundle 2.
10 ADV NEL: Thank you, Madam Commissioner.
11 COMMISSIONER: Pleasure. Do you have the
12 page, Dr Grieve?
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes, sorry.
14 ADV NEL: Thank you. In the first
15 paragraph you write. “I just got off the phone with the
16 one guy Shane Donald who owes me money. He is supposed to
17 pay me today and he is having some difficulties, I still
18 hope he does.” Who is Shane Donald?
19 DR GRIEVE: He was one of the people that
20 owed me money that was financed. Him and his significant
21 other, but he was the voice of his significant other, so
22 wife, girlfriend, I'm not quite sure what the relationship
23 was, but he used to speak on her behalf.
24 ADV NEL: I understand how you treated
25 the company, but which entity did Shane Donald owe money
Page 165
1 to?
2 DR GRIEVE: Bridging Solutions.
3 ADV NEL: Yes. The next paragraph you
4 say, “I have Nick Pentz who also owes a large sum who is
5 going to settle tomorrow.” Is he also somebody who owed
6 Bridging Solutions money?
7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 ADV NEL: It says, “Nick owes me about 1
9 million and Shane about half a million.”
10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 ADV NEL: “You're waiting for either of
12 these to be deposited so I can pay this interest.”
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 ADV NEL: Okay. You say, “Definitely
15 both interest payments will be made by tomorrow afternoon.”
16 Tomorrow afternoon is 25 March 2009. You didn’t make those
17 payments did you?
18 DR GRIEVE: I don’t think so, no.
19 ADV NEL: Well –
20 DR GRIEVE: I can't recall.
21 ADV NEL: Well we know on the 26th the day
22 later, you still hadn’t paid.
23 DR GRIEVE: Okay ja, I hadn’t. These
24 guys still hadn’t paid me.
25 ADV NEL: Now, did Mr Donald ever pay you

Page 166
1 this R500 000?
2 DR GRIEVE: No.
3 ADV NEL: And what steps have been taken
4 to recover that amount?
5 DR GRIEVE: There is a number of the
6 debtors that I handed over to Tim Du Toit and asked them to
7 start collections proceedings on, and various proceedings
8 and actions had been taken, not only just by these two, but
9 by a few others as well.
10 ADV NEL: And is Mr Donald one of those
11 that you handed over to Tim Du Toit?
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes. In terms of the legal
13 terminology – they actual say, whatever the attorneys did
14 it would not necessarily have been to Donald directly, but
15 to significant others because I think it was her that
16 actually officially owned the property that we financed or
17 whatever.
18 ADV NEL: I just meant to this amount of
19 500 00. Have steps been taken to recover that?
20 DR GRIEVE: They were Ja.
21 ADV NEL: And the R1 million of Nick
22 Pentz?
23 DR GRIEVE: Steps were also taken.
24 ADV NEL: Do you perhaps know if there's
25 been any progress regarding recovering those amounts?
Page 167
1 DR GRIEVE: I took steps to those before
2 the winding up of the company. There were more than just
3 those that I did take steps on. There had been certain
4 actions taken, and then obviously when the company was
5 wound up those actions had probably stopped and they would
6 have transferred it from Tim Du Toit’s firm to my
7 understanding, either the liquidator or to whoever he
8 appoints or – I'm not quite sure how that process will work
9 after that, but up until then we had taken certain steps on
10 various clients, and during the course of that year I think
11 we really on succeeded in collecting on one.
12 ADV NEL: So from March when this R1.5
13 million was outstanding, until February the next year when
14 the company is wound up, R1.5 million never came in?
15 DR GRIEVE: Not that one and half, no.
16 ADV NEL: If you can turn to page 201
17 please. I don’t want to harp on the aspect, I think we've
18 already covered it, but it’s certainly clear from the
19 documentation, including this email that Bridging Solutions
20 was in a grave financial situation by this time.
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
22 ADV NEL: I'm going to ask you to turn to
23 page 210 please. Now, this is dated the 27th of March from
24 you to Presidium, we know that this is the day that you
25 were supposed to pay at least R800 00 to Presidium?
Page 168
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: You write and you say, “I'm
3 still doing my level best to achieve my deadline. I'm not
4 comfortable that I will be able to make it with any
5 certainty as I mentioned yesterday already. I am aware of
6 your email and that you have been hearing this from me for
7 two weeks already.” What had happened from the previous
8 day, from the 26th to the 27th of March to make you change
9 your mind?
10 DR GRIEVE: Well I had been following up
11 on the people I was expecting to pay imminently or soon, as
12 they had promised me those days and I just wasn’t getting
13 to where I wanted to. They weren’t paying.
14 ADV NEL: You say, “I'm struggling to get
15 hold of people this morning for reasons unknown to me.”
16 DR GRIEVE: Ja, some of them just weren’t
17 answering their phones. Messages were left and they
18 weren’t getting back to me.
19 ADV NEL: Sure. Next paragraph you say,
20 “Problem being someone at Standard Bank needs to issue us
21 with a cancellation instruction and has been on leave.
22 Even though we have tried to move both up and down his
23 chain of command, he will only issue this on his return on
24 Monday.” Which transaction does that relate to?
25 DR GRIEVE: I can't recall if it was one
Page 169
1 of these two or a third one, I can't recall which one.
2 There was one that we were really frustrated with, where we
3 were waiting for such a thing, I can't recall which one.
4 ADV NEL: Well let me assist you. If you
5 go further down you say, “I have three deals that are
6 imminent and could settle me any time from Monday on.” Do
7 you see that?
8 DR GRIEVE: Hmm.
9 ADV NEL: The first one is Nick Pentz
10 about 620 000. Do you see that?
11 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
12 ADV NEL: Two days before that it was R1
13 million, now its 620.
14 DR GRIEVE: It had already been
15 outstanding for a while and that’s the capital amount, and
16 the fees that had accrued were very close to R1 million
17 with it, because it had already been outstanding for a
18 while if I remember correctly Ja.
19 ADV NEL: So why did you say 620 000
20 then?
21 DR GRIEVE: Because that was the capital
22 portion.
23 ADV NEL: Three days before, why did you
24 say R1 million?
25 DR GRIEVE: I can't answer that.

Page 170
1 ADV NEL: Ja.
2 COMMISSIONER: Another exaggeration
3 perhaps?
4 DR GRIEVE: I accept that that comment
5 was totally fair. I can recall these because I was
6 following up until the winding up, and the capital was that
7 and there was a large fee portion with it. So although
8 we’ve seen exaggerations yes, this wasn’t an exaggeration,
9 these were the capital portions, and because these two
10 deals were on Presidium’s books per se, by referring to
11 them like this they could see them.
13 ADV NEL: And then the bit that I said I
14 would assist you. You say, “I also have another deal about
15 1,2 million that was due today.” You say this is the one
16 with the issue of the cancellation instruction from
17 Standard Bank?
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
19 ADV NEL: So this is the potential third
20 one you are referring to?
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 ADV NEL: Could we just go up two or
23 three paragraphs, there is a paragraph that says, “I want
24 you to know it is receiving my utmost attention.” Have you
25 got that?
Page 171
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: The last portion of that
3 paragraph you say, “But the odds are more in favour of full
4 settlement of all interest outstanding on Monday/Tuesday.”
5 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
6 ADV NEL: So on Friday the 27th of March
7 you believed that by the Monday or the Tuesday you’d be
8 able to settle all interest. Is that correct?
9 DR GRIEVE: I believed so, ja.
10 ADV NEL: What did you base that belief
11 on?
12 DR GRIEVE: I'm assuming it was the
13 Standard Bank issue we were having. I can't remember the
14 client’s name. If I go through an old debtor’s book I'm
15 sure I will be able to identify the client, and I was
16 assuming that we just needed something settled at Standard
17 Bank and that would have given me some of that money that I
18 was referring to.
19 ADV NEL: But we know from what you’ve
20 told us earlier that none of that materialised.
21 DR GRIEVE: This specific one for 1.2 did
22 materialise somewhere along the line. I just can't recall
23 the dates.
24 ADV NEL: Did you pay that -
25 [11:33] DR GRIEVE: I am going to – I am not
Page 172
1 confident in my answer, so I am not quite sure how to
2 approach this, yes, I believe I did. Maybe not the full
3 amount, but there was a payment at some stage and because
4 Presidium were jumping up and down, I had an attorney
5 representing me as well and I think we may have – I just
6 can’t remember the exact time line, so please forgive my -
7 COMMISSIONER: Accepted.
8 DR GRIEVE: - lack of accuracy on that,
9 but there was a payment I believe of about a million rand
10 somewhere around here as well, that was made from Barry
11 Aaron’s trust account, and I am just not convinced, I can’t
12 remember now if I used this to do it, or what I used to
13 make that payment from Barry Aaron.
14 ADV NEL: Well, I think we’ll still get
15 there and maybe give you some clarity.
16 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I can’t – I am sorry, I
17 can’t remember exactly.
18 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine.
19 ADV NEL: But Bridging Solutions received
20 this 1,2 million.
21 DR GRIEVE: Somewhere along the line, ja.
22 ADV NEL: And there’ll be a financial
23 record of that, presumably.
24 DR GRIEVE: I hope so, unless at that
25 stage of the pressure, it might have been paid directly to
Page 173
1 Barry Aaron for some reason. I am a little bit
2 uncomfortable, because I can’t remember exact details. I
3 just know there was a million rand paid at some stage and I
4 think it might have come from this, I can’t remember if I
5 used that funds, of if I used William’s funds, I can’t
6 remember which I used to make that payment.
7 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, what documentation
8 do you need to enable you to answer us?
9 DR GRIEVE: I am not sure. Obviously the
10 bank records would help, of that time, on myself and on the
11 Bridging, and any payments that Barry Aaron had made to
12 Presidium might help as well.
13 COMMISSIONER: Sorry, can I just ask
14 something on that point?
15 ADV NEL: Sure.
16 COMMISSIONER: How would you entrust your
17 attorney, Mr Aaron to make payment?
18 ADV NEL: I would have been under his
19 advice to a degree and he would have been holding onto it
20 until he was happy with something, and then he would have
21 said okay, I think it’s time and he would have made a
22 payment.
23 COMMISSIONER: Okay, let’s just start
24 again, if there was money in Mr Aaron’s trust account –
25 DR GRIEVE: Ja.

Page 174
1 COMMISSIONER: - did you then instruct
2 him in writing to make payment to a certain person or
3 entity?
4 DR GRIEVE: I might have sent him an
5 email to that effect.
7 DR GRIEVE: It’s a long time ago and I
8 can’t recall it but I know there was a payment made. I
9 just can’t remember what the instruction channel was. It
10 would have been in writing somehow. I am guessing.
11 COMMISSIONER: Okay, so if we can get
12 that, that would also assist you?
13 DR GRIEVE: Ja, yes. But I think I did
14 provide, after our last session –
16 DR GRIEVE: - I did provide a letter to –
17 or at least one of those payments from Barry Aaron –
18 COMMISSIONER: Oh, forgive me, I did not
19 know that.
20 DR GRIEVE: I did send it through, I
21 believe I did.
22 COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. Please
23 proceed.
24 ADV NEL: Thank you, Madam Commissioner.
25 Dr Grieve, we’ll go through as much of the correspondence
Page 175
1 as we believe is relevant.
2 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
3 ADV NEL: If there’s any gaps or anything
4 that you think that you need to fill in, you are welcome
5 to, and welcome to try and locate whatever document you –
6 DR GRIEVE: Thank you.
7 ADV NEL: - you are referring to. The
8 third-last paragraph starts with the words “This is where I
9 am at.” Do you have that?
10 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
11 ADV NEL: The second sentence says, “I
12 personally also have another 1,4 million being released
13 presumably from an off shore account to assist me in just
14 fixing all the interest payments until the deals start to
15 return.” Do you see that?
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 ADV NEL: Which R1,4 million are you
18 referring to there?
19 DR GRIEVE: To William’s money.
20 ADV NEL: Okay. But you tell Presidium
21 that it’s your personal money. Isn’t that so?
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I guess so.
23 ADV NEL: And it’s being released from an
24 off shore account to assist you in just fixing all the
25 interest payments. Do you see that?
Page 176
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
2 ADV NEL: Do you remember my questioning
3 earlier, what was this money earmarked for?
4 DR GRIEVE: I understand.
5 ADV NEL: So was it earmarked to pay
6 interest, to pay your arrear interest?
7 DR GRIEVE: Or to settle my indebtedness,
8 ja.
9 ADV NEL: Yes. We had to go a long way
10 to get that answer, Dr Grieve.
11 DR GRIEVE: I accept that, I concede to
12 that. I just want to add again that by doing that, I still
13 had the money in the book that was earning that interest
14 and would come back.
15 ADV NEL: You then say, “As this money
16 lies in the UK Channel Islands, I have structured the money
17 coming in as a loan between my brother and myself.” Do you
18 see that?
19 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
20 ADV NEL: “This should also assist me in
21 getting back into line with next month’s interest.” This
22 loan will unfortunately also only clear South African
23 Reserve Bank within the next seven to nine days. This is
24 part of my crazy run around at the moment, and into next
25 week.” Next paragraph, “This will like I say fix the
Page 177
1 interest position until I get the churn going again, which
2 is almost there.” Now, I don’t want to get caught up in
3 semantics, because it doesn’t matter what your intention
4 was, you wanted to use this money to pay Presidium the
5 interest payment, not so?
6 DR GRIEVE: Not initially, but ultimately
7 that’s what happened ja.
8 ADV NEL: And we know that you never told
9 William this, prior to him giving this money to you,
10 loaning it to you.
11 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
12 ADV NEL: Do you agree with that?
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 ADV NEL: You tell Presidium it’s about
15 R1,4 million, it comes as 1,33, I accept that, there’s no
16 massive difference there, yet you only pay them 900 000.
17 Do you accept that?
18 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
19 ADV NEL: Do you agree with me that this
20 paragraph leads them to believe that they can rely on 1,4
21 million coming through.
22 DR GRIEVE: I didn’t say that I was going
23 to give them the full 1,4, I just say I was expecting that
24 money to come in, so that’s an interpretation that I
25 suppose can be made but I don’t think it necessary says

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 1 - 1 November 2010

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 1 - 1 November 2010

Recommended

Recommended

More Related Content

More from UnitasDokters

More from UnitasDokters (16)

Recently uploaded

Recently uploaded (20)

Dr DS Grieve Special Insolvency Inquiry Part 1 - 1 November 2010