Platonic Dialogue: Protagoras and Socrates Debate: Can Virtue Be Taught?

What can we learn from the Platonic dialogue, the
Protagoras, where Socrates challenges the Sophist
Protagoras?
Was Protagoras correct when he asserts that virtue
can be taught?
Was Socrates correct when he asserts that virtue
CANNOT be taught? Can they both be right?

What are the components of virtue? Are all these
components needed to be virtuous?
Why was Socrates so hostile towards the Sophists?
Was it the Sophists who were corrupting the youth of
Athens? These two questions we reflected on in our
prior video on the life of the Sophist Protagoras, and
the fragments that survive of his works.

To understand the Platonic dialogues, we need to
understand the Peloponnesian Wars, which Athens
lost to Sparta shortly before the composition of the
dialogues, and the history of the Thirty Tyrants who
were installed by Sparta, and who were overthrown
for their blood thirsty tyranny.

https://youtu.be/QabwtFANCDc https://youtu.be/uhtGzfxVdzk
https://youtu.be/1ra58mg33nM https://youtu.be/wyjWBAG6xrc

https://youtu.be/yECl8cKCzao https://youtu.be/_hYwZsxmC3s
https://youtu.be/szi7-9QQWI0 https://youtu.be/UHRzKH-asoo

https://youtu.be/SaIqQ35ysl4 https://youtu.be/yECl8cKCzao
https://youtu.be/giNzqNoOH3Y
https://youtu.be/b7QLp1HrOMs

Please, we welcome interesting questions in the
comments. Let us learn and reflect together!
At the end of our talk, we will discuss the sources
used for this video.
Feel free to follow along in the PowerPoint script we
uploaded to SlideShare.

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Socrates debates Protagoras respectfully, but in the
dialogues, Socrates always wins the debate. Often
the loser of the debate looks for an excuse to leave
the dialogue after Socrates makes a fool out of them,
but Protagoras concedes often when Socrates wins
an argument, and it is Socrates who gets up to leave
the debate!

Some of Socrates’ arguments don’t seem to make logical sense, some
scholars speculate that these faulty arguments are spoofing how Sophists
reason imprecisely, concerning themselves more with rhetoric, or
pleasing speech, and are less concerned with logic and truth. Whatever
sounds best is deemed by many listeners to be true. We only need to
look so far as our Presidential debates to confirm that!
The main debate is about defining virtue, and whether virtue can be
taught. Protagoras argues that virtue can be taught, whereas Socrates
says it cannot be taught. Are these two philosophers arguing about
whether virtue is a skill, or whether virtue is a choice? The dialogue ends
without a conclusion.

Socrates Tears
Alcibiades from the
Embrace of Sensual
Pleasure, by Jean-
Baptiste Regnault,
circa 1791

Presidential Debate between Richard Nixon and John F Kennedy, 1960

Socrates
reproaching
Alcibiades, by
Anton Petter

Socrates wants his students to think for themselves, so we cannot
assume that Socrates really believes that virtue cannot be taught. After
all, at the end of the dialogue Socrates asserts that true knowledge leads
to virtue. Perhaps he seeks to dissuade the youths in Athens from
studying under the Sophists, who claim to be able to teach anything, for a
fee, a generous fee, of course.
What example comes to mind if we assert that virtue can be taught? We
need to go no further than the Book of Judges, which is filled with
horrible stories that atheists love to parade as proof that God is not a
loving god. We must keep in mind the constant theme of the Book of
Judges: Everyone in Israel did what was right IN HIS OWN EYES. Which is
the slogan of the Sophists.

Tribe of Benjamin Seizing the Daughter of Shiloh, by John Everett Millais, 1847

Return of Jephtha, by Giovanni Antonio Pellegrini, 1725 / Sacrifice of Jephthah, by Thomas Blanchet, 1600's

Unusually for someone whom
Socrates defeats in an argument,
Plato has Protagoras graciously
closing the dialogue: “Socrates, I am
not of a base nature, and I am the
last man in the world to be envious.
I cannot but applaud your energy
and your conduct of an argument.
As I have often said, I admire you
above all men whom I know, and far
above all men of your age: I believe
that you will become very eminent
in philosophy. Let us come back to
the subject at some future time.”

The irony is that it is Socrates who is the eminent
philosopher, only fragments remain of the works of
Protagoras.
In a later dialogue Plato does discuss the philosophy
of Protagoras in the Theaetetus; Socrates argues that
knowledge is not sense-perception or true judgment.

Role of Characters in Peloponnesian Wars

Many of the Platonic dialogues are commentaries on the Peloponnesian
Wars. The Athenians knew the background of each of the participants,
and so should we, to properly interpret the dialogues.
Protagoras is an early dialogue, and the Symposium is suspected to be a
later dialogue, but it is odd that many of the guests at Plato’s symposium
participated in the arguments in the Protagoras. In the Symposium,
Alcibiades, quite drunk, crashed the dinner party at the end, after
Socrates gave an eloquent speech on divine love. Alcibiades relates how
he tried to seduce Socrates, but Socrates was only interested in loving
him with a divine love, seeking to improve his soul, and he so respected
his teacher that he did not touch him.

Plato's Symposium, Alcibiades is crashing the dinner party, by Anselm Feuerbach, 1869

Callias is hosting Protagoras at his home. Callias was an Athenian general
in the war, defeated Sparta in the battle at Corinth, and negotiated a
peace. Callias hosted Xenophon’s Symposium but did not attend Plato’s
Symposium. But in later life, Callias spends his entire fortune on sophists,
flatterers, and women, and dies broke and forgotten.
Critias, the leader of the Thirty Tyrants, was a guest speaker at
Xenophon’s Symposium, but not Plato’s. The Thirty Tyrants were installed
by the victorious Spartans when Athens lost the Peloponnesian Wars.
They were overthrown after a bloody short reign where they executed
first their opponents, then fellow aristocrats to steal their fortunes.

Paralus and Xanthippus were sons of Pericles. They and their father died early in the
war in the plague that struck Athens.
In addition to Protagoras, the Sophists Hippias of Elis, who also has two dialogues,
and Prodicus of Ceos attended. Prodicus was the source of the legend where
Hercules encountered Lady Vice and Lady Virtue, where they both told him their
allures. This was also retold by St Justin the Martyr and Xenophon. Plato respected
Prodicus more than the other Sophists. The Sophists were foreigners, none were
involved in the war.
We also note that several of the students of Protagoras, including Alcibiades, were
accused of profaning the mysteries, possibly vandalizing the herms before the
disastrous Sicilian Expedition, a stunning military defeat for Athens, where they lost
nearly all their navy, that contributed to her eventually losing the war. Alcibiades was
blamed for this loss, though the fault should be rather placed on those Athenians
who repeatedly drove Alcibiades into exile when he was on the cusp of victory.

These are the dinner guests and speakers of Plato's Symposium who are also in the
Protagoras dialogue:
• Socrates, who is the only guest in both Xenophon's and Plato's Symposium.
• Agathon was a tragic poet, the banquet in the Symposium was held in his honor.
• Pausanias was a legal expert, and lover of Agathon.
• Phaedrus was an aristocrat who was a student of Socrates, also appearing in the
dialogue, the Phaedrus, and other Platonic dialogues.
• Eryximachus was a physician. Phaedrus and Eryximachus may have been indicted
for profaning the Eleusinian mysteries, along with Alcibiades, before the Sicilian
Expedition.
• Alcibiades, student and lover of Socrates, crashes the Symposium. Many
Athenians blamed him for Athens losing the war.

Walking to Meet Protagoras, the Sophist

The dialogue Protagoras opens with Socrates’
companion saying he is chasing down the fair
Alcibiades, saying he recently left his youth by
growing a beard.

In a discussion with his companion Socrates said that he has seen him,
but then rejoins: “But shall I tell you a strange thing? I paid no attention
to him, and several times I quite forgot that he was present.”

His companion asks Socrates if he has “discovered a
fairer love,” and Socrates responds that yes,
Protagoras is in town, whom he calls the “wisest of
all living men.” Was Socrates ironic? Was Socrates
jesting? In the Apology describing his trial and
execution, Socrates tells the jury that a friend had
asked the Oracle at Delphi: Who is wiser than
Socrates? The Oracle answered there is no one wiser.

https://youtu.be/Mip1vgRKH1E
Socrates asks the jury, “Why do I mention this? Because I am going to explain to
you why I have such an evil reputation. When I heard this, I said to myself, What
can the god mean? How shall we interpret this riddle? For I know I have no
wisdom, small or great. What then does he mean when he says that I am the wisest
of men? And yet he is a god, and cannot lie, that would be against his nature.”

Was this an act of hubris on Socrates’ part? Did this contribute to
the jury’s eventual decision to pronounce him guilty of corrupting
the youth of Athens?
Next in the dialogue, Hippocrates knocks on Socrates’ door,
asking him, “Are you awake or asleep”? Hippocrates has heard
Protagoras is in town, and he wants Socrates to introduce him.
When Socrates asks him whether he wants to study to become a
Sophist, Hippocrates is embarrassed and says he only wants to
learn skills useful for his rise in politics.
The major criticism Socrates has against the Sophists is that they
charge for their teachings, and if we are to believe his biographer,
Diogenes of Laertius, Protagoras charges Ivy-League level tuition.

https://youtu.be/Mip1vgRKH1E
Socrates ironically tells his friend Hippocrates that
“if you give him money, and make friends with
him, he will make you as wise as he is himself.”

Sophists did not have a good reputation with the citizens of Athens,
though Protagoras was popular with the politically ambitious Athenians
who wished to learn the art of rhetoric, or clever speech. Since his
beloved Socrates was tried and executed by a large Athenian jury on
charges of corrupting the youth and impiety towards the gods and was
painted as a Sophist by the playwright Aristophanes, Plato was eager to
both denigrate the Sophists and show that Socrates resolutely opposed
the Sophists. When we reviewed the scraps of the biography of
Protagoras, and the handful of fragments of his works, these affirmed his
poor reputation, but their compilation could have been influenced by
Plato’s dialogues.

Socrates asks Hippocrates how a Sophist can
make him eloquent, and whether that is
important. Isn’t there more at stake when
you decide who will teach you philosophy?
Socrates asks, “When your soul is in
question, which you hold to be of far more
value than the body, and upon the good or
evil on which depends the well-being of your
all, about this you never consulted with
either your” family or “your companions.”
“You call him a Sophist, but you are
manifestly ignorant of what a Sophist is.” Socrates teaching Alcibiades, by
Christoffer Wilhelm Eckersberg, 1816

Socrates urges, “Knowledge is the
food of the soul, and we must take
care that the Sophist does not
deceive us when he praises what
he sells.” Socrates warns that
phony philosophers are ignorant of
the effects their teachings have on
the souls of their followers, and
that “there is far greater peril in
buying knowledge than in buying
meat and drink.”

What Does Protagoras Teach His Students?

Plato’s Socrates showed his hostility to the Sophists
early in the dialogue. Now, when they knock on the
door of Callias’ house, where Protagoras is staying,
the servant opens the door, takes one look at
Socrates, and proclaims that this house has quite
enough Sophists, and slams the door on them.
Socrates knocks on the door again and has to
convince him he is not a Sophist before he is allowed
to enter with Hippocrates.

When Socrates is admitted inside, he tells
Protagoras that his young friend Hippocrates has a
great natural ability, and “that he aspires to
political eminence, and that he thinks that
conversation with you is most likely to procure this
for him.”
Plato has Protagoras saying that “the art of the
Sophist is of great antiquity,” that he understands
that the student should be cautious in selecting a
teacher, and that he does not believe in deceiving
anyone in his purpose, he says that “I acknowledge
myself to be a Sophist and instructor of mankind,”
he does not conceal this.
Democritis & Protagoras, by Salvator Rosa, 1664

Socrates asks Protagoras whether he will
help his students become better men. Plato
has Protagoras answer that he will not bore
him with academic drudgery as do many
other Sophists, that Hippocrates will learn
with him all that he has come to learn, that
he will learn “prudence in affairs private as
well as public; he will learn to order his own
house in the best manner, and he will be
able to speak and act for the best in the
affairs of the state.”
Democritis & Protagoras, by Salvator Rosa, 1664

This perhaps is analogous to the advice given by St
John Climacus who, in the first rung of the Ladder of
Divine Ascent, warns us that we should pick our
spiritual advisor, and for us that means or priest or
pastor, with great care, if we are to dutifully follow
his spiritual advice to improve our soul.

Perhaps Protagoras, selling his services, hoping for generous fees, is telling
Socrates what he wants to hear, for these are noble Socratic goals. Socrates then
asks Protagoras if that means he intends to “teach him the art of politics, and
that you promise to make these young men good citizens?” When Protagoras
says yes, Socrates doubts whether politics is art that can be taught, or even
communicated to another man.
Socrates and Protagoras agree that the components of virtue are justice,
reverence and holiness, temperance, and finally courage. Socrates asks
Protagoras if the components of virtue are one, or if there are separate
components to virtue. Protagoras says they are separate, and wisdom is the
greatest! Socrates forces Protagoras to admit that this means wisdom and justice
do not need to be the same, which means the wise can dispense with justice!

Alcibiades Receiving Instruction from Socrates, by François-André Vincent, 1776 / Protagoras

Socrates then asks Protagoras if that means he
intends to “teach him the art of politics, and that you
promise to make these young men good citizens?”

Socrates and Protagoras agree that the
components of virtue are justice, reverence
and holiness, temperance, and finally courage.

Protagoras Retells Myth of Prometheus
Prometheus Bound, by Christian Griepenkerl, 1878

In most Platonic dialogues, Socrates does most of the talking, asking
questions to trip up those he entraps in his discussions. But not
Protagoras, he does most of the talking, and to prove his point he has
long retelling of the Myth of Prometheus, which takes up more than ten
percent of the dialogue. It was a rhetorical masterpiece, flawlessly
executed, generating applause, so the Sophist could avoid directly
answering the question at hand. Sophists had ready many such set-pieces
ready to deliver at any time. But it is an interesting speech, so Socrates
does not wish to be impolite and interrupt him, when the speech is
played out with its clever ending, Socrates calls it a “long harangue, like
banging brazen pots.”

Prometheus
and
Epimetheus
before
Pandora, by
Hermann
Julius
Schlösser, 1878

In the myth of Prometheus, our hero steals fire from the gods. His
punishment is to be bound to a rock, and each day he endures the pain of
an eagle, a representation of Zeus, eating his liver. Each night his liver
grows back, and each day the agonizing cycle begins anew. In some
versions of the myth, Prometheus also creates men from clay.
Plato has Protagoras adding some elements to the myth: in his retelling,
the gods ask Prometheus to assist in the creation of all creatures, but he
only supervises, he has an assistant Epimetheus to distribute the qualities
to each creature. The footnote says that in Greek, the name Prometheus
means forethought, and Epimetheus means afterthought. Epimetheus
does appear in other retellings of the myth.

Hercules frees Prometheus and Hercules, by Christian Griepenkerl, 1878

Prometheus
steals fire from
the gods, by
Christian
Griepenkerl

In the dialogue, “to some Epimetheus
gave strength without swiftness, while
he equipped the weaker with
swiftness; some he armed, some he
left unarmed.” My father would have
added to this, he was a welder, but
had some philosophical leanings, he
said that of those who are not too
bright, that at the time of Creation,
when the Lord was handing out
brains, they thought he said trains,
and they said they didn’t need that.
Prometheus Bound, by Jacob Jordaens, 1640

Protagoras explains that the unwise
“Epimetheus forgot that he had distributed
among the brute animals all the qualities
he had to give, and when he came to man,
who was still unprovided, he was terribly
perplexed.” “Prometheus came to inspect,”
“and found that man alone was naked and
shoeless and had neither bed nor arms of
defense.” So, he stole the mechanical arts
and fire from Athena and Hephaestus and
gave them to man. Prometheus steals fire from the
gods, by Jan Cossiers, 1637

Among all the animals, only man could sacrifice
to the gods, but they did not posses the art of
governing. “Zeus feared that the entire race of
men would be exterminated, so he sent Hermes
to them, bearing reverence and justice to be the
ordering principles of cities and the bonds of
friendship and conciliation.”
“To all,” said Zeus, “I should like them all to have
a share; for if cities cannot exist, if a few only
share in the virtues, as in the arts. And further,
make a law by my order, that he who has no
part in reverence and justice shall be put to
death, for he is a plague to the state.”
Prometheus brings fire to mankind, by
Heinrich fueger, 1790

Why should men study the art of
virtue? Protagoras has Prometheus
answering: “If a man is wanting in
those good qualities which are
attained by study and exercise and
teaching, and has only the contrary
evil qualities, other men are angry
with him and reprove him, and of
these evil qualities one is impiety,
another injustice,” which are the
“opposite of political virtue.”
Hercules Delivering Prometheus, by Nicolas Bertin, 1703

Death of Socrates, by Jacques-Lavis David, 1787
Dialogue on Virtue Continues

Protagoras reveals that he views that what other
men think is the standard of morality. Do Sophists
believe there is absolute virtue that, on rare
occasions, only one man or one leader in the
community possesses?

Protagoras then spends time discussing the value of civic education,
but then he proclaims that his teaching definitely “makes a man
noble and good, and I give my pupils their money’s worth.”

Protagoras then even claims that if they consider his
fees to be too high, they can go to the temple and
inquire from the oracle the proper fee they need to
pay. I have been in business, and only someone
whose fees are at the top end of the scale will say
this. In my professional experience, attorneys who
charge top dollar excel more in greed than in
competence, and they often win cases more by being
a bully rather than by legal acumen.

Socrates, after commenting on how
brilliant a speech this was, says he
disagrees that virtue can be taught.
He directly asks Protagoras: “I want
you to tell me truly whether virtue is
one whole, of which justice and
temperance and holiness are parts; or
whether all these are only the names
of one and the same thing.” Then
they agree that courage and wisdom
are also part of virtue.
Socrates teaches a youth, José Aparicio, 1811

Why is bravery and courage so elevated? Socrates and
Protagoras both agree that courage means, first of all, to join in
the battle to defend the city-state. Later they pick up this
debate again, agreeing there is a difference between
purposeful courage and impetuous foolhardiness. We are again
reminded that the ancient Greek culture is a warrior culture,
that all citizens must be ready and eager to defend the city-
state in war, lest they be defeated and plundered, with the risk
that all their military age men be slaughtered, and their women
and children be enslaved.

They embark on a long Socratic diatribe; they agree that
temperance should be part of virtue. Socrates then trips us
Protagoras in an apparent illogical position that is really caused
by the imprecision of language, as words in all languages can
have multiple meanings. For example, when I was learning
Spanish, I learned that langostos is the Spanish word for lobsters.
When you read the Gospels in Spanish, you learn that John the
Baptist, in the desert, wore animal skins and ate only honey and
langostos. How can this be? In Spanish, unlike English, the same
word is used for both lobsters and locusts.

Socrates Address, by Louis Joseph Lebrun, 1867

Preaching of
St John the
Baptist, by
Domenico
Ghirlandaio,
1490

Socrates traps Protagoras into agreeing that each component of virtue has an
opposite, and only one unique opposite. Then he asks why folly is the opposite of
both wisdom and temperance, which either proves that virtues share opposites, or
that the unique opposites share words. But Protagoras instead poses a weaker
argument, and he infers that truth is relative, and not absolute.
After another clever speech by Protagoras which draws applause, Socrates is ready
to leave, but first Callias, then Critias, the future bloody tyrant, and Alcibiades,
whom the Athenians blame for their loss in the war, argue that Socrates should
continue the argument. But it is Prodicus, the Sophist most highly regarded by Plato,
and Hippias the Sophist, who urge that both sides be impartially heard, that they
not wrangle, but argue out of goodwill, so all may learn from the debate.
They then discuss the poets, and how they add to the discussion. They quote
Hesiod, from his Works and Days:

https://youtu.be/HH9t2eTh8RE
“On the one hand, hardly can a man become good,
For the gods have made virtue the reward of toil;
But on the other hand, when you have climbed the height,
Then, to retain virtue, however difficult the acquisition, is easy.”

Socrates and Prodicus discuss whether being good is
the same as becoming good, which is another way to
ponder whether virtue can be taught.
Socrates has a romantic notion of good and evil. Neo-
Platonists and St Augustine believe that evil is not a
force to itself, that evil is simply the absence of good,
that evil is at its core, nothingness.

Socrates here defends a
more extreme version of
this belief: “No wise man
will allow that any human
being errs voluntarily, or
voluntarily does evil and
dishonorable actions,” and
“all who do evil and
dishonorable things do
them against their will.”
Statues of Plato and Socrates by Leonidas Drosis at the
Academy of Athens

St Augustine teaches us that we should interpret Scripture with
the view that we should Love God totally, with all of our heart,
mind, soul, and strength, and that we should love our neighbor
as ourselves. Christians should likewise view philosophy in the
same manner, allegorizing or discarding that which conflicts with
this view, and this implies that love is a choice, that we can
choose. But modern psychology and neurology does reveal that
indeed, including the demented and deranged, there are people
who have no free will. They have no control over whether they
violate social norms, their raw emotions control them.

Socrates then asks
Protagoras: “Is living
pleasantly good, while
living unpleasantly an
evil?”
Protagoras answers, “Yes,
if pleasure be good and
honorable.”
Plato and Aristotle, School of Athens, by Raphael, 1511

This is suggestive of Epicureanism, where we live for
pleasant times with our friends, when we live for the
weekend, which is really the predominant popular
philosophy of our modern age. One of Socrates’
more controversial students was Aristippus, founder
of the hedonic Cyrenaic school of philosophy, which
may have influenced the later Epicureans under
Epicurus, whose philosophy could be characterized as
Stoicism-lite.

The translator summarizes Socrates position,
“that Socrates states his conviction that when
one is sure about what is right, the pursuit of
pleasure will not stand in the way of doing it.
Yielding to pleasure is nothing but a
miscalculation of the consequences of our
actions.” Socrates concludes this part of the
discussion by noting that “there is nothing
mightier than knowledge, and that knowledge
must have the advantage over pleasure and all
other things, even though pleasure often gets
the advantage even over a man who has
knowledge.”

This reminds us of Solomon, the wisest man of the
Bible, whose wisdom is corrupted by the temptations
of his many foreign idolatrous wives.

King Solomon
with his wives,
by Giovanni
Battista
Venanzi, 1668

So perhaps the debate of whether virtue can be taught can be reframed,
Is virtue a skill that can be taught, or is virtue something we choose? Do
we passively learn virtue, or do we acquire virtue by acquiring good
habits by living a godly life? And that is the theme for the early monastic
Church Fathers. Education is critical for both Protagoras and Socrates, for
if we wish to choose virtue, pondering on the nature of virtue is needed
to avoid being deceived.
The Sophists, eager to gain students to maximize their fees, tend to teach
rhetorical tricks to defeat political opponents rather than political virtue,
they teach the relative wisdom that the culture prescribes. Socrates and
true philosophers teach the everlasting objective wisdom, the ideal
wisdom of the forms, the wisdom that leads to true virtue.

We found an inexpensive compilation of the main Platonic
dialogues at Barnes and Nobles. You can purchase hardcover
collections of the main Platonic dialogues.
St Diogenes of Laertius has a short section on the life of
Protagoras in his Lives of Eminent Philosophers, and Frederick
Copleston also discusses the life, fragments, and dialogue of
Protagoras. These sources are discussed in more detail in our
video on the Fragments of Life and Works of Protagoras.
The Great Courses/ Teaching Company has three excellent lecture
series on the Platonic dialogues, these have not been transferred
to Wondrium yet.

To find the source of any direct
quotes in this blog, please type in
the phrase to the search box in
my blog to see the referenced
footnote.
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