SlideShare a Scribd company logo
What I want in a Space Game
Episode 1
Just some ideas that will apply.
First, the physics engine, some points
• I don’t care about orbit. Well, I don’t see where what’s fun about
close quarters navigation will be affected by orbital mechanics. In my
game, all joystick navigation will happen within very short distances.
Imagine drone racing in space.
• I think that vector should be non-stabilized (thrust in a direction and
you will keep going that direction), and rotation should be stabilized
(rotate only while deflecting the stick, similar to first person shooters)
• Basically, orbit is a bigger factor and automated, you will fly around
nearby objects only, and rotation is much “cheaper” to stabilize,
requiring much less fuel than vector stabilization.
What inspired me to write this presentation:
• There are multiple ways to “stabilize” rotation. All of them would
have unique effects on space flight.
• Reaction wheels would be smoother
• Thrusters would be more powerful
• A combination would allow for powerful, smooth, easily controlled
rotation.
• In-game, each could have problems: reaction wheels can require
“cooldown” where they are gradually slowed down if they spin too
fast,, and thrusters alone would result in jittery imprecise
stabilization.
More on stabilization problems in game
• The reaction wheels would naturally try to maintain a speed that is not too fast,
and allows plenty of maneuvering headroom, but that is fast enough to still
provide gyroscopic stability to the vehicle while not maneuvering, and be
smoothly, consistently responsive when acted upon.
• The resulting gameplay would see a wheel charge percentage, and different
maneuvers would speed or slow each wheel an amount. If the pilot rotates the
same direction too many times in too short of a time-span, the associated wheel
would result in too high of a speed to continue being used, and enter cooldown.
• During cooldown, the wheel would be “offline” and the pilot would be stuck with
(still automatic) thruster-only stabilization. This would cause the craft to jitter as
the thruster would have “minimum” thrust values, and would be unlikely to result
in exactly the desired attitude.
• During cooldown, the pilot would find it difficult to shoot accurately, and overall
evasive maneuvers would be less effective.
Second concept: non-racing competence
courses,,, many of them.
• For the player of the game, if all they desired was continuous improvement
in navigation competency, it should be possible for them to only play that
portion, and never run out of courses.
• Racing would of course be an option, with both racing oriented course
design, as well as delicate navigation course design.
• Courses should be graded if possible, and a course editor should be
available.
• The best example of this format I can personally imagine, is drone racing
simulators, with community map sharing. It is possible to create a course,
and then to share it with anyone who would like to try it.
• It should be possible to practice flying any type of craft or course regardless
of in-game development,,, so,, , you don’t have to “buy” it with accrued
wealth or points.
It would be nice if drone racing courses were
also available.
• Space flight and drone flight have many similarities despite their differences.
• So much work has been done by the drone racing community on course
development, it would be excellent if the same courses were easily portable into
the space game.
• Courses are pieces of art and engineering. They, like other game-type maps,
would become familiar, with the most popular rising to fame.
• Some drone racing courses are already famous, and within the simulators you can
“relive the excitement”, but also you can see where certain elements became
essential building blocks. Course theory is infinite.
• I have one time actually written to a drone racing simulators suggestion box to
include a “zero-gravity” feature that makes it possible to fly as though in space
through their familiar favorites, it might actually be a plausible idea, so it might
be possible to “port” space game mechanics to other racing game engines.
A new kind of “Space Taxi”
• Space trading and delivery games are historically popular.
• Most space games focus on warping goods from one solar system to
another, with the challenge being generally unrelated to ship maneuvers.
The exception is combat with pirates if needed to reach the destination,
although such combat virtually never involves course navigation.
• Perhaps a “city-based” space game, where the game takes place (almost)
entirely within futuristic dense urban environments in zero gravity would
allow for delivery based navigation through various close quarters
environments,, similar to the sort of driving done in “Grand Theft Auto”,
where various goals are reached by driving various routes around a normal
earth city.
“Space Pizza Delivery”
• Perhaps a good example of gameplay would be a space pizza delivery
driver.
• Homes would be in various settings, some in denser locales, some in areas
with more open space, enabling various difficulties of trip.
• The pizza itself could be delivered via 6dof drone,,, enabling each trip to
provide two challenges,, a faster paced, more rocket-like experience with
lots of forward momentum while the driver travels from the pizza
restaurant to the home,, and secondly a slower, but much more
challenging bit of navigation into a package airlock at the home., which
might require very careful turns but offers very responsive controls
associated with very small vehicles. (like drones vs. helicopters).

More Related Content

More from troy schmidt

space FPV racing
space FPV racingspace FPV racing
space FPV racing
troy schmidt
 
first arguments for complex controllers and manual robotics
first arguments for complex controllers and manual roboticsfirst arguments for complex controllers and manual robotics
first arguments for complex controllers and manual robotics
troy schmidt
 
Variations on the expanse (1)
Variations on the expanse (1)Variations on the expanse (1)
Variations on the expanse (1)
troy schmidt
 
The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)
The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)
The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)
troy schmidt
 
mariobros (updated)
mariobros (updated)mariobros (updated)
mariobros (updated)
troy schmidt
 
Mariobros
MariobrosMariobros
Mariobros
troy schmidt
 
Ufo's and no_sonic_boom
Ufo's and no_sonic_boomUfo's and no_sonic_boom
Ufo's and no_sonic_boom
troy schmidt
 
How to lift rocks in the ancient world
How to lift rocks in the ancient worldHow to lift rocks in the ancient world
How to lift rocks in the ancient world
troy schmidt
 
Pilum into shield
Pilum into shieldPilum into shield
Pilum into shield
troy schmidt
 
Pogo rocket
Pogo rocketPogo rocket
Pogo rocket
troy schmidt
 
Resistance bomber scene newtonian
Resistance bomber scene newtonianResistance bomber scene newtonian
Resistance bomber scene newtonian
troy schmidt
 
Fake swords everywhere
Fake swords everywhereFake swords everywhere
Fake swords everywhere
troy schmidt
 
Death star approach newtonian
Death star approach newtonianDeath star approach newtonian
Death star approach newtonian
troy schmidt
 
The black hole sword is an elegant weapon
The black hole sword is an elegant weaponThe black hole sword is an elegant weapon
The black hole sword is an elegant weapon
troy schmidt
 
The pyramids
The pyramidsThe pyramids
The pyramids
troy schmidt
 
Vader suit attempt 1
Vader suit attempt 1Vader suit attempt 1
Vader suit attempt 1
troy schmidt
 
Makaloa mat
Makaloa matMakaloa mat
Makaloa mat
troy schmidt
 
Death star power plant
Death star power plantDeath star power plant
Death star power plant
troy schmidt
 
Circle triangle square
Circle triangle squareCircle triangle square
Circle triangle square
troy schmidt
 
Trench tour
Trench tourTrench tour
Trench tour
troy schmidt
 

More from troy schmidt (20)

space FPV racing
space FPV racingspace FPV racing
space FPV racing
 
first arguments for complex controllers and manual robotics
first arguments for complex controllers and manual roboticsfirst arguments for complex controllers and manual robotics
first arguments for complex controllers and manual robotics
 
Variations on the expanse (1)
Variations on the expanse (1)Variations on the expanse (1)
Variations on the expanse (1)
 
The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)
The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)
The Legend of Super Mario Bros. (Revisited)
 
mariobros (updated)
mariobros (updated)mariobros (updated)
mariobros (updated)
 
Mariobros
MariobrosMariobros
Mariobros
 
Ufo's and no_sonic_boom
Ufo's and no_sonic_boomUfo's and no_sonic_boom
Ufo's and no_sonic_boom
 
How to lift rocks in the ancient world
How to lift rocks in the ancient worldHow to lift rocks in the ancient world
How to lift rocks in the ancient world
 
Pilum into shield
Pilum into shieldPilum into shield
Pilum into shield
 
Pogo rocket
Pogo rocketPogo rocket
Pogo rocket
 
Resistance bomber scene newtonian
Resistance bomber scene newtonianResistance bomber scene newtonian
Resistance bomber scene newtonian
 
Fake swords everywhere
Fake swords everywhereFake swords everywhere
Fake swords everywhere
 
Death star approach newtonian
Death star approach newtonianDeath star approach newtonian
Death star approach newtonian
 
The black hole sword is an elegant weapon
The black hole sword is an elegant weaponThe black hole sword is an elegant weapon
The black hole sword is an elegant weapon
 
The pyramids
The pyramidsThe pyramids
The pyramids
 
Vader suit attempt 1
Vader suit attempt 1Vader suit attempt 1
Vader suit attempt 1
 
Makaloa mat
Makaloa matMakaloa mat
Makaloa mat
 
Death star power plant
Death star power plantDeath star power plant
Death star power plant
 
Circle triangle square
Circle triangle squareCircle triangle square
Circle triangle square
 
Trench tour
Trench tourTrench tour
Trench tour
 

Recently uploaded

Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __
Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __
Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __
catcabrera
 
Divertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptx
Divertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptxDivertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptx
Divertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptx
lunaemel03
 
定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样
定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样
定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样
0md20cgg
 
_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf
_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf
_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf
Mega P
 
Modern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and Safety
Modern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and SafetyModern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and Safety
Modern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and Safety
AITIX LLC
 
240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf
240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf
240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf
Madhura TBRC
 
The Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting Saga
The Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting SagaThe Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting Saga
The Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting Saga
greendigital
 
Emcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdf
Emcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdfEmcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdf
Emcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdf
subran
 
Unveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdf
Unveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdfUnveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdf
Unveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdf
kenid14983
 
Everything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdf
Everything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdfEverything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdf
Everything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdf
Xtreame HDTV
 
From Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptx
From Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptxFrom Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptx
From Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptx
Swing Street Radio
 
哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样
哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样
哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样
9u08k0x
 
I Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledge
I Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledgeI Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledge
I Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledge
Sabrina Ricci
 
高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样
高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样
高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样
9u08k0x
 
Christian Louboutin: Innovating with Red Soles
Christian Louboutin: Innovating with Red SolesChristian Louboutin: Innovating with Red Soles
Christian Louboutin: Innovating with Red Soles
get joys
 
Matt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdf
Matt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdfMatt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdf
Matt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdf
Azura Everhart
 
DIGIDEVTV A New area of OTT Distribution
DIGIDEVTV  A New area of OTT DistributionDIGIDEVTV  A New area of OTT Distribution
DIGIDEVTV A New area of OTT Distribution
joeqsm
 
Barbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffff
Barbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffffBarbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffff
Barbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffff
theastras43
 
Top IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdf
Top IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdfTop IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdf
Top IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdf
Xtreame HDTV
 
Orpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and Inspiration
Orpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and InspirationOrpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and Inspiration
Orpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and Inspiration
greendigital
 

Recently uploaded (20)

Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __
Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __
Snoopy boards the big bow wow musical __
 
Divertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptx
Divertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptxDivertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptx
Divertidamente SLIDE muito lindo e criativo, pptx
 
定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样
定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样
定制(uow毕业证书)卧龙岗大学毕业证文凭学位证书原版一模一样
 
_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf
_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf
_7 OTT App Builders to Support the Development of Your Video Applications_.pdf
 
Modern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and Safety
Modern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and SafetyModern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and Safety
Modern Radio Frequency Access Control Systems: The Key to Efficiency and Safety
 
240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf
240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf
240529_Teleprotection Global Market Report 2024.pdf
 
The Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting Saga
The Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting SagaThe Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting Saga
The Unbelievable Tale of Dwayne Johnson Kidnapping: A Riveting Saga
 
Emcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdf
Emcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdfEmcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdf
Emcee Profile_ Subbu from Bangalore .pdf
 
Unveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdf
Unveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdfUnveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdf
Unveiling Paul Haggis Shaping Cinema Through Diversity. .pdf
 
Everything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdf
Everything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdfEverything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdf
Everything You Need to Know About IPTV Ireland.pdf
 
From Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptx
From Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptxFrom Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptx
From Swing Music to Big Band Fame_ 5 Iconic Artists.pptx
 
哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样
哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样
哪里买(osu毕业证书)美国俄勒冈州立大学毕业证双学位证书原版一模一样
 
I Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledge
I Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledgeI Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledge
I Know Dino Trivia: Part 3. Test your dino knowledge
 
高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样
高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样
高仿(nyu毕业证书)美国纽约大学毕业证文凭毕业证原版一模一样
 
Christian Louboutin: Innovating with Red Soles
Christian Louboutin: Innovating with Red SolesChristian Louboutin: Innovating with Red Soles
Christian Louboutin: Innovating with Red Soles
 
Matt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdf
Matt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdfMatt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdf
Matt Rife Cancels Shows Due to Health Concerns, Reschedules Tour Dates.pdf
 
DIGIDEVTV A New area of OTT Distribution
DIGIDEVTV  A New area of OTT DistributionDIGIDEVTV  A New area of OTT Distribution
DIGIDEVTV A New area of OTT Distribution
 
Barbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffff
Barbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffffBarbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffff
Barbie Movie Review - The Astras.pdfffff
 
Top IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdf
Top IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdfTop IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdf
Top IPTV UK Providers of A Comprehensive Review.pdf
 
Orpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and Inspiration
Orpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and InspirationOrpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and Inspiration
Orpah Winfrey Dwayne Johnson: Titans of Influence and Inspiration
 

Space game concepts 1

  • 1. What I want in a Space Game Episode 1 Just some ideas that will apply.
  • 2. First, the physics engine, some points • I don’t care about orbit. Well, I don’t see where what’s fun about close quarters navigation will be affected by orbital mechanics. In my game, all joystick navigation will happen within very short distances. Imagine drone racing in space. • I think that vector should be non-stabilized (thrust in a direction and you will keep going that direction), and rotation should be stabilized (rotate only while deflecting the stick, similar to first person shooters) • Basically, orbit is a bigger factor and automated, you will fly around nearby objects only, and rotation is much “cheaper” to stabilize, requiring much less fuel than vector stabilization.
  • 3. What inspired me to write this presentation: • There are multiple ways to “stabilize” rotation. All of them would have unique effects on space flight. • Reaction wheels would be smoother • Thrusters would be more powerful • A combination would allow for powerful, smooth, easily controlled rotation. • In-game, each could have problems: reaction wheels can require “cooldown” where they are gradually slowed down if they spin too fast,, and thrusters alone would result in jittery imprecise stabilization.
  • 4. More on stabilization problems in game • The reaction wheels would naturally try to maintain a speed that is not too fast, and allows plenty of maneuvering headroom, but that is fast enough to still provide gyroscopic stability to the vehicle while not maneuvering, and be smoothly, consistently responsive when acted upon. • The resulting gameplay would see a wheel charge percentage, and different maneuvers would speed or slow each wheel an amount. If the pilot rotates the same direction too many times in too short of a time-span, the associated wheel would result in too high of a speed to continue being used, and enter cooldown. • During cooldown, the wheel would be “offline” and the pilot would be stuck with (still automatic) thruster-only stabilization. This would cause the craft to jitter as the thruster would have “minimum” thrust values, and would be unlikely to result in exactly the desired attitude. • During cooldown, the pilot would find it difficult to shoot accurately, and overall evasive maneuvers would be less effective.
  • 5. Second concept: non-racing competence courses,,, many of them. • For the player of the game, if all they desired was continuous improvement in navigation competency, it should be possible for them to only play that portion, and never run out of courses. • Racing would of course be an option, with both racing oriented course design, as well as delicate navigation course design. • Courses should be graded if possible, and a course editor should be available. • The best example of this format I can personally imagine, is drone racing simulators, with community map sharing. It is possible to create a course, and then to share it with anyone who would like to try it. • It should be possible to practice flying any type of craft or course regardless of in-game development,,, so,, , you don’t have to “buy” it with accrued wealth or points.
  • 6. It would be nice if drone racing courses were also available. • Space flight and drone flight have many similarities despite their differences. • So much work has been done by the drone racing community on course development, it would be excellent if the same courses were easily portable into the space game. • Courses are pieces of art and engineering. They, like other game-type maps, would become familiar, with the most popular rising to fame. • Some drone racing courses are already famous, and within the simulators you can “relive the excitement”, but also you can see where certain elements became essential building blocks. Course theory is infinite. • I have one time actually written to a drone racing simulators suggestion box to include a “zero-gravity” feature that makes it possible to fly as though in space through their familiar favorites, it might actually be a plausible idea, so it might be possible to “port” space game mechanics to other racing game engines.
  • 7. A new kind of “Space Taxi” • Space trading and delivery games are historically popular. • Most space games focus on warping goods from one solar system to another, with the challenge being generally unrelated to ship maneuvers. The exception is combat with pirates if needed to reach the destination, although such combat virtually never involves course navigation. • Perhaps a “city-based” space game, where the game takes place (almost) entirely within futuristic dense urban environments in zero gravity would allow for delivery based navigation through various close quarters environments,, similar to the sort of driving done in “Grand Theft Auto”, where various goals are reached by driving various routes around a normal earth city.
  • 8. “Space Pizza Delivery” • Perhaps a good example of gameplay would be a space pizza delivery driver. • Homes would be in various settings, some in denser locales, some in areas with more open space, enabling various difficulties of trip. • The pizza itself could be delivered via 6dof drone,,, enabling each trip to provide two challenges,, a faster paced, more rocket-like experience with lots of forward momentum while the driver travels from the pizza restaurant to the home,, and secondly a slower, but much more challenging bit of navigation into a package airlock at the home., which might require very careful turns but offers very responsive controls associated with very small vehicles. (like drones vs. helicopters).