Show 6 with Bob Gockeler

Interviews with Today’s Top Remodeling Entrepreneurs
http://www.remodelersontherise.com
Show 6: Bob Gockeler started his journey with
$300 and a burning desire to succeed and shares
his Fast That Eat the Slow mentality
Kyle: Welcome to Remodelers on the Rise. I’m your host Kyle Hunt and alongside me
is co-host Ryan Paul Adams. Howdy Ryan?
Ryan: Hey Kyle! What’s going on?
Kyle: Not much. Not much.
This is Remodelers on the Rise #6. So let’s start with introducing today’s guest. Our
guest today is Bob Gockeler with Kitchen Intuitions and Kraftmaster Innovations.
He is in New Jersey. Bob has tons of experience in general contracting and a really
good sense of design that’s unique in the world of remodeling. He has successfully
designed hundreds of projects from simple remodels to complete additions for over
20+ years in the business.
Welcome, Bob!
Bob: Hi guys! Good morning!
Ryan: Good morning Bob!
Kyle: So Bob, the focus of the show and I hope you are okay with talking about
yourself. It is all about you. It is about you, your business and your experience. I just
gave you a quick intro and I’d like to turnover to you.
Can you briefly tell us more about you personally and also, your business?
Bob: Sure! I’d be happy to. I’ve been in the remodeling business as a kid. My first
interest was building something, ripping something apart and putting them together.
I actually started in landscaping. With not college in mind, I decided that landscaping,
deck building and outdoor construction was really the road for me to go down.
So with a whole $300 in my pocket, I went out and bought 2 trucks, a dump truck
and a panel truck. And, I started a landscaping business.
Kyle: What was this, 1910?
Ryan: With how much money, repeat that.

Bob: Yes, it was literally $300. I towed them from a farmer’s field. As a mechanic,
with an engine hoist at my parent’s backyard. Hanging from a tree, I started to rip
the motor out so that I could go into business.
Kyle: That’s bootstrapping it, folks.
Bob: Absolutely.
Ryan: It’s desire.
Bob: Whatever it takes to do it. At the age of 25, I had guys working for me. I had a 5-
acre property. I built a 10,000 square foot warehouse. I had all the boy toys – the
bulldozers, backhoes, the pick-up trucks at such a young age.
I looked back on it now and, “Wow!”
I was plowing snow for the school systems, condominiums. Just crazy, crazy stuff!
Then one day, some drunk driver hit me in one of my truck and crushed a bunch of
discs on my back. And I woke up in the morning, I now had a career decision change
that was given to me.
Ryan: Big life change.
Bob: Yup! So you never know what’s going to happen. In life, you never know how
things are going to go.
So I went out on my very first interview with a company called ADT Security.
I got the job there. I had a phenomenal career in corporate. I literally couldn’t hold a
job for more than 6 months there. It was a standing joke. I got promoted literally
every 6 months.
I went from an entry level, door-knocking salesguy at Sussex County, New Jersey,
which is pretty much cow county. Selling security out there isn’t probably the easiest
thing to do.
But being in my own business with no marketing, no support, no nothing – it was
easy for me. I had already done it. I want from that. And, I ultimately ended up on
their corporate stuff.
I had to take on a section of the business, which was a failing segment. It was a $50
million division. It had 600 sales guys and turnover was 300%. It was bleeding.
Three years later, we turned it around to a $350 million division.

But I woke up one morning and realized that the corporate life wasn’t for me
anymore.
Airplanes every day a week wasn’t my life. So I went into the home improvement
industry. I left a phenomenal career at a large company with a very big salary and
went into the home improvement industry.
Ryan: You have done really well with it. Before we get started with the interview,
Bob.
You and I talked a little bit about maintaining just a superior, high standard of quality
for every job that you do. And it sounds like you don’t employ any subs. You have
your own full-time crew, is that true?
Bob: Yeah, it is. I have the same guys now for almost 8 years.
Ryan: Can you talk a little bit about the advantages and disadvantages of that
staffing model for a remodeling business?
Bob: Sure! I’d be happy to. The ability of being able to bring guys up form the field
when they just got started. They’re green. They don’t know anything. It takes years
to mold them.
It was very painful in the beginning. You know, I started out my business with really
small jobs in areas where I didn’t really want to work. Because I knew that as I grew
my business and made mistakes, I’d have to rip stuff out and re-install it.
There were a lot of learning lessons. But by sticking it out and having the right guys
instead of having constant turnover, you develop them. And it’s a culture.
It is not just a product. It is how the product gets to be installed. It’s the integrity.
It’s the customer interactions. It’s the prep. It’s sweeping at the end of the day,
wiping it up with a damp cloth because small kids are walking around in their socks.
It’s completely a mentality.
Ryan: Well, it’s interesting that you identified it as a product. Because it really is.
You are packaging all of these things. And all these complicated pieces that go into a
remodeling job. And you are packaging as a product versus just a remodeling service.
Bob: It is much more than a kitchen. It is the experience. It is from their very first
phone call. It actually starts before your phone call.

It starts with your identity on the internet – how do people find you. It’s referral,
word of mouth, how your trucks are outfitted, what your guys look like.
Kyle: And lucky you’ve upgraded the $150 dump trucks these days.
Ryan, why don’t you go ahead and get into the next question.
Ryan: Bob, can you share a quote that you live by and an example of how you might
apply this to your life and your remodeling business?
Bob: Sure. Actually, I have two.
One, “It is never too late to be what you might have been.”
I really look at that with my departure from corporate and going into my own
business. It is what I always wanted to do.
Here I was 40 years old, on top of the world and I was miserable. It wasn’t what I
wanted to do. And to me, it was never too late. It is never too late on anything in life.
It is not just in your business. It is relationship with your kids. It’s changing your
business practice. So, I stay adaptable, whatever I’ve got to do to be able to improve.
Kyle: I hear that so often when I’m working with remodelers, “Man! Kyle, I wish I had
brought you in 10 years ago, 5 years ago.”
And that’s usually my response to it is, “Better late than never. We’re here now. You
are making improvements now. Don’t worry about what could have been. Focus on
what’s going to happen here going forward.”
So, that’s a good one.
Bob: And the other one, it is more of my creative side. Because truly I’m a sales and
marketing guy at heart.
You know, whenever I draw a circle, I immediately want to step out of it. I’m always
looking for a different way to do something. It doesn’t matter what it is. I am not
complacent. I don’t care what it is, it can be improved.
It doesn’t matter what it is, I’m always looking for that. It’s just not my idea, it’s
empowering people in the field and everybody that you surround yourself with to
think the same way. Don’t just accept it. It’s never good enough. It can always be
improved.
Kyle: The word “complacent” is what I wanted to draw out there a little bit more. I
was just talking to my clients just recently. They hired a staff person. Started out, this
person was just kicking butt and really proactive.

After about 4 or 5 months, some complacency set in. That person sits back, waiting
for people to give instructions, instead of what was happening upfront.
So what you are saying there as a business owner, but also making sure like you just
said and I want to emphasize there, your whole team, that’s got to be the mindset.
That’s got to be the culture.
Ryan: It starts at the top.
Bob: Yeah! They follow your lead. And when you challenge people, they rise up. They
always do.
Kyle: There we go. Share a story of a time in your journey, Bob, where you
encountered failure. If you could take us to that time in your life and tell us that
story and maybe share some of the lessons you learned from that.
Bob: It is a bittersweet moment because it was really a turning point in my business
model. Really that topic for me is spotting the customer that’s not right for you.
Every single time without fail, I go against my gut feeling.
Ryan: You feel it. You know it in your gut.
Bob: Yeah! And I pay for it dearly. And it doesn’t mean financially. It’s emotionally.
It’s every step of the way with that customer. And I have been smart enough a
couple of times.
During this process where people have already put a downpayment down, signed
paperwork and I just got that bad feeling. And I’ve gone in the back, I’ve written out
a refund check and I’ve gone out and handed out their entire folder. No hard
feelings. It is just not going to work for me.
Ryan: What are some of those red flags that you notice?
Like, I know even in my business today that one of the ones I standby is that, when
somebody starts picking apart your contract and going through every single line-
item, it’s usually a big red flag because there’s a level of trust that hasn’t been built
at that point. Is there something that you’ve noticed consistently?
Bob: I would say that I would echo that. That’s exactly the same thing. I ask every
customer before I even get started, “Tell me your experience with remodeling and
share with me your worst story, your best story. I want to hear about it. And what
happened when you had a problem with something you remodeled. And how did
you deal with it?”

In the beginning of the process, people don’t realize it. This is a two-way interview.
They are selecting a contractor and a remodeler. But I am also selecting a customer. I
ask those kinds of questions upfront.
Ryan: Yeah! It is really important that you identify that because really, not everybody
is an ideal client.
Kyle: And how about your guys? You don’t necessarily have work for them 3 weeks,
shouldn’t you just take this job?
Bob: The guys are going to pay for it down the road. They are not going to be happy.
Nobody wants to go to that house. We’ll do the job but no one is going to be happy
being there.
So no, I don’t. I don’t want to submit the guys to it. I really don’t. That’s my
responsibility to them, to find them great customers.
Ryan: Excellent! Talk about that AHA! moment in your business that maybe changed
your life and the direction of what you do today.
Bob: My AHA! moment was about 5 years ago when I really changed my business
model. And I changed it really as a result of I had applied for Qualified Remodelers
Big 50.
Kyle: Remodeling Magazine’s?
Bob: Yup! And I went through that process. And part of their process, when you get
into a certain step, all of your customers (your past 50 customers) are interviewed by
a company called Guild Quality.
And the results of that were just devastating to me.
They loved the day they bought it. They loved it about 3 months after it was
installed. And they hated the process. At that time, I had several Project Managers. I
had several designers.
They saw me on Day 1. If there were problems then they’d see for final pictures. But
they never saw me in the middle.
That changed my life. It completely changed my life. I was spending so much time
and effort on the sales side, employing all kinds of people and my customers hated
it.

And I was wondering why I wasn’t getting their referral business. And I completely
changed my model. And now, I’m a hands-on model. I’m on every single job, every
single day without fail.
And the customers we take them shopping, every step of the way. So nothing gets
missed and I went from having no stars to literally 100% stars in every single
category.
Ryan: It sounds to me, with the little bit that I know of you Bob, that you are a
special kind of person.
Like, so you are not probably going to get that same kind of person in your Project
Manager or even in your sales people. So how do you get a break?
How do you build a business if you are having to be there all the time? Or, do love it
to a point where it really doesn’t matter?
Bob: I am contented with the size of my business. I have phenomenal designers and I
need them. I rely on them heavily.
Fortunately, my kids are now getting old enough where they’re now involved in the
business. They’ve taken a lot of the burden of the day to day running around,
delivering material, picking this up.
They’ve helped with that a lot. It’s not a one-man band. It’s an owner who is much
more involved than just collecting checks and pushing paperwork.
Kyle: Have you done surveys prior to that? It sounds like you had not.
Bob: I had not.
Kyle: I mean if I talk to 10 remodelers, throughout the month, the majority of them
haven’t.
And, “Why haven’t you?”
“Because I have a pretty good read on what they feel. I don’t know, I just haven’t.”
It is such a simple thing but, it was your AHA! moment. It was the one thing that you
look back to when you get direct, honest feedback after the fact and realize you have
to change your whole process here to fix that.
Getting our clients, we spent so much time in them, so much energy to get their
honest feedback at the end of the project. Whether it’s through Guild Quality, which

is a great third-party resource, whether it’s even going to a Survey Monkey or
Wufoo, sending them a form, sending them a link. Whatever it takes.
Or, a lot of other people say, I’m going to go after the check has been collected,
everything done, two weeks later, I just want to interview them and I’m going to let
them know that I’ll do that.
I am just going to get their honest feedback in person, whatever it is. That step, a lot
of times get overlooked. And let’s make sure everybody who listens to this knows
how valuable it is to not let that slip through.
Bob: When I look at the info you get back, it is truly what it is – it’s information. If I
don’t know what’s wrong, I can’t fix it.
Ryan: Absolutely!
Bob: They are not going to tell it to my face, exactly what’s wrong. But with a third-
party, absolutely! They will be incredibly candid!
Kyle: Now have you seen your referral business, repeat business pick up as a result
over the last 5 years?
Bob: My repeat business was non-existent prior to the change. My referral business
was non-existent.
Kyle: Interesting! Wow!
Bob: Now, I see customers in the streets. I see them in the store. It’s a hug and kiss,
hello.
Or, “I’ll introduce you to my friend.”
It is completely different.
Ryan: They become an extended part of your family. They really do.
Bob: Yes. They’re all friends with us on Facebook. It is amazing! It truly was life
changing for me.
Ryan: So is there anything in your business right now or the industry that’s really
exciting you?
Bob: In the industry, I’d say it’s the shift from the traditional styling and remodeling
to all the innovations that are out there. And how do you incorporate them and look
for opportunities to incorporate them into your projects.

And bring them to your customers so that in 2 years from now, or a year from now
or 6 months now, a customer doesn’t have a remodel and look back at it, “Oh I wish I
would have told me.”
They come to me. And they look to us as the experts to stay in touch with what’s the
latest and greatest and how we can incorporate some of those things to their
projects. So that they feel life they have a “wow!” whatever it is – a kitchen or a
bathroom.
It’s all in the details. It really is.
Ryan: It really is. Excellent!
Kyle: Bob, can you share with us? You have two different businesses. You have the
Kitchen Intuitions and Kraftmaster.
Explain for everybody listening, the strategy behind the two separate businesses.
Bob: With Kitchen Intuitions, really my strategy with that business is to be the local
downtown shop where everybody knows to go for their cabinetry from.
It is not just cabinetry. There is involvement with the community. We are involved.
We get hit up quite a bit for donations. These are donations that we are so happy
and privileged to give back to the town. We are involved with literally everything.
We are involved with the schools. We had something called the Taste of Chatham,
where 300 to 400 people get together and they have a sampling of different food in
town. We sponsor that.
What we donated in that particular one was a kitchen and a bath design. It was
amazing! People were bidding back and forth to get them. It is a local downtown
shop that really wants to be part of the community.
Kyle: Do you find one to be more profitable or less hassle than the other? Or are
they kind of feeding off each other?
Bob: The kitchen showroom is certainly easier for me. But it’s also the referral for my
remodeling business.
When people walk through the door, we want to identify from them, do they have a
contractor or are they looking for a full service.
If they already have a contractor, I don’t want to touch it. All I want to talk to them
about is how we can support that contractor and get to know them better.And assist
them with their lay out.

Through the remodeling business, it’s really that one-stop shopping. It’s, literally, we
take their hand and walk them through all of it.
People really pick us for that reason. It is a) reputation and b) the confidence that
they have when they walk in, knowing that there is nothing that is going to be
overlooked and if there is something that comes up, we handle it.
One of the things, it’s my policy, that is probably different in the industry is how I
handle unforeseen circumstances.
Unforeseen as you guys all know, it comes up on a lot of remodels.
In our kitchen remodels, we have a bathroom that was recently remodeled, over the
top of it. We pulled the ceiling down and the joints were cut. And it’s not my house.
It’s got to be fixed. My policy on that is, I don’t put a margin on it. I charge my
customers exactly what my direct cost is.
I am happy with what I made on their job. I don’t look to profit on their misfortune.
Ryan: I like it.
Kyle: It’s a real value add.
Bob: And it builds confidence. People love hearing it. I am happy to do it.
Kyle: To all remodelers listening to this, don’t let that one pass by either. Consider
that. Stop and pause there. Think of what we are always trying to figure out – how
we can differentiate ourselves.
I am guessing, Bob, that’s something that comes up on every sales call you are out
on, right?
Bob: Oh, it does! People don’t remember the problem. They remember how you
handle it.
Ryan: You are not asking people to consider the scope of work that changes in as far
as let’s add a bathroom. You are saying if we can’t see something, if there is an
unforeseen circumstance that arises, we’ll take care of it.
We’ll show you our cost. We are not going to add any profit or margin on top of that.
I think that’s pretty fair.
Bob: People are thrilled about it. What I have found is, they are more apt to do all it
right and not do anything halfway.

There are no half-measures. When we have some galvanized pipes that are suspect
over the kitchen, and we are going to replace them with PVC, they want to replace
them all. It is a huge value add to them to do that at cost.
Kyle: So before we get into the lightning round questions, I want to ask one more
question. Kind of related to things you are doing to grow your business, to generate
new revenue. What are the top 2 things that you’re doing outside of previous clients,
repeat work and referrals from those folks .
Do they generate new leads in the business?
Bob: My single best paid-for source, it’s up on HOUZZ, without question. We get
more business out of HOUZZ than we get from any one single source.
Kyle: Are you advertising with them or just having a good complete profile?
Bob: Actually, it’s both. If you don’t have a phenomenal profile, don’t spend your
money. You have to have both. So, I’m fully invested in that. We post all of our
projects up there now. And I use that as a platform for reviews.
Ryan: HOUZZ is awesome. They really are building out a tremendous social platform
for this industry.
Kyle: And what would be #2 behind that?
Bob: It is really my own website. It is the online presence. It really is. It is not just
how does it get me leads. I certainly get leads out of my own website.
And in my own website, there’s always new content. It’s never none. It is always
getting changed. I’m in the midst of remodeling our website.
It is going to be one of the new responsive sites. It has to stay fresh. It’s got to stay
fast and it’s got to stay mobile.
If you are not on a mobile platform today, forget it.
Kyle: I don’t know. You guys are always talking about that. People still, everybody
still goes to the yellowpages. What are you talking about?
Anyways that’s supposed to be funny. You are supposed to laugh, Bob. So let’s get
into the lightning round of things where we will rapid fire through a series of
questions. And you can continue to share your knowledge with us. Sounds like a
plan?
Bob: Yeah, sounds great!

Kyle: So Ryan, why don’t you start us off with the first one?
Ryan: All right! What is the best business advice you’ve ever received?
Bob: I would have to say, it’s truly in the sales side. Actually, it probably can transfer
to every side of your business. It is not what you spend, it’s what you make.
It is not the cost of the lead, it is your conversion of the lead, totally. Just because
you don’t have any money and you don’t have the funds to do something, doesn’t
prevent you to do it.
Ryan: You’ve got to find a way.
Bob: Yes! There has to be a way to do it.
Kyle: Can you share one of your personal habits you believe attributes to success?
Bob: It was probably 30 years ago now that I saw the guy. It was Tony Robbins. I saw
him way, way back when and it was the 4 letters: C.A.N.I. (Constant and Never-
ending Improvement).
That’s really what I am looking forward every single day. How we can improve a)
myself, my business and my experience with customers.
It is a whole recurring theme for me, which is to always be looking for the next right
thing to do.
Kyle: And repeat the acronym again, in case people didn’t catch it the first time.
Bob: C.A.N.I. And it stands for Constant and Never-ending Improvement. There’s a
whole description on it from Tony Robbins.
If you haven’t seen him or never read any of it, it’s a phenomenal book.
Ryan: I have something in my desk here. It is the word “kaizen”.
I don’t know if you’ve heard about it. But it’s the Japanese version of the same thing.
So it’s constant, steady improvement everyday.
Looking for ways to get better. And again, not being complacent like what we talked
about before.
Kyle: Bob, what book would you recommend to Remodelers on the Rise listeners?
Bob: I would say, my favorite all time book is, It’s Not the Big that Eats the Small, It’s
the Fast that Eats the Slow.

If you’ve never heard of the book or you’ve never read, it’s a quick and easy read. It
is nothing to do with the size of your business. It’s how quickly you adjust to
changes. And how quickly can you modify it.
It runs all the way through your business. It’s sales and marketing. It’s on the job. It is
every single part of your business. So it’s a phenomenal book.
Ryan: Your top competitors, they are not going to stop. They are not gong to sleep.
They are not going to be complacent. They are going to continue to carve out more
and more market share.
And all across the country, I don’t care where you are. That’s happening right now.
So if you are going to stand and stay put, I don’t think that’s a good thing. I really
don’t.
Bob: It’s like the first mover gets the advantage. That’s what it boils down to, how
are you staying ahead of your competition.
There are so many ways you can do it. How you can keep your website fresh, there
are inexpensive ways to do it. I use a service called e-Lance.
I do the same thing on the marketing side. There’s a company called Crowd Shout
that they would do all your web marketing for you, design marketing. You’ve got to
stay fresh.
Ryan: Absolutely! So Bob, we ask all of our guests to provide something meaningful
and useful for the listeners, is there anything that you can provide, a resource or
some kind that may help other remodelers that are listening?
Bob: Actually, it’s a several step process. But I’d probably give you the most
important step. It is really in the pre-sales part of my conversation.
Every phone call that I have with somebody starts, it is pretty much a scripted
conversation. But it’s tailored so it sounds like it’s the very first time I said it.
It is personalized to each person. And it’s pre-conditioning my very first time when I
met them. They know exactly what to expect and one of the steps of that is talking
openly about the budget. Everybody has one. Everybody needs to know what it is.
Ryan: Got to get it out there. Got to know what it is.
Bob: So what I’ve done is I took a combination of NKBA stuff, some NARI, a bunch of
the different budgeting planning guides that are out there and I combined my own.

It is available on my website. Anybody who wants to, they can feel free to download
it. What I do with it, it’s an Excel spreadsheet. I send it out to every single customer.
A step of my process, before going to the house, it helps them understand that ok,
why should I spend $70,000 on my kitchen. What is it going to take to break that
down and dissect it?
Ryan: Sure.
Bob: So you got those. You got this. You got that.
And people can put their actual numbers in there. It is phenomenal. Everybody that I
send it to loves it.
Ryan: That’s excellent! That would be real useful. And we’ll make sure that at the
end of the show, we post a link to that resource at
RemodelersontheRise.com/show6.
Kyle: So here’s the final question Bob.
It is a tricky one. It is a little long to explain. But you’ve got to follow along and we
are looking forward to your answer.
So imagine, you woke up tomorrow morning and you are in the same exact business,
but you knew no one, had no sales and only $500 of start up money.
And your life depended on you selling something in the next 7 days. You still have all
the experience and knowledge you currently have. Your food and shelter are taken
cared of. But all you have are a laptop and $500.
What would you do in the next 7 days to survive and generate new business? And
remember, your life depends on it.
Bob: It’s actually how I started my business. Not just my landscaping business years
ago.
It is actually how I started my remodeling business. I was in that exact same spot
I really don’t know a lot about their service today. When I started my business, I
actually hired a lead generation service. At that time it was called Service Magic. And
I think it has evolved to ---
Kyle: Home Advisor.
Bob: Yeah! Home Advisor now.

And it was a quick and easy way for me to purchase leads. And, everybody says, “Oh
I hear a lot about. Well, they are not good leads.”
Well, leads are leads. At the end of the day, if somebody expresses the interest, I’m
sure we can have another discussion about it.
But, that’s probably where I’d start if I literally needed a lead today, if needed
somebody to see. I would invest my money to buy leads.
For me, it’s my quickest way to get in front of somebody.
Ryan: Excellent!
Kyle: Very good. All right. Finally, where can people get a hold of you, Bob?
And is there anything else you wanted to share today?
Bob: They can certainly find me right off my website, which is www.kmrenovate.com
or www.kitchenintuitions.com.
And I think I’ll wrap it up with a quote that we talked about in the very beginning.
You are thinking about making some changes. You know, it is never too late to be
what you might have been. So get started today!
Ryan: Life is too short to wait for all the important things you want to do in your life.
So just go and get it done.
Kyle: There we go.
Thank you Bob for coming on the show today, we really appreciate you sharing your
story. And just a friendly reminder to all our listeners, please check us out at
www.RemodelersontheRise.com.
If you can take a couple of minutes to review and rate our show on iTunes. I just
checked we have 6 reviews on there, currently.
Thanks to Joe, Colleen, Bryan and Spencer for the reviews. And if you guys can hop
on there and leave some reviews on how you like the show, we’d appreciate it.
So thank you all for tuning in and thank you again, Bob.
Bob: Thank you guys! It is a pleasure.
Ryan: Thank you, Bob!

Show 6 with Bob Gockeler

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