This document discusses the relationship between science and engineering, and proposes a model for Methodist churches and clergy to engage more with their local communities through community organizing. Some key points: - It argues that engineering focuses more on creating things that work to meet human needs, while science seeks understanding, and engineering has historically depended on science but not vice versa. - It proposes that Methodist clergy be trained as both presbyters and community organizers, focusing more on engaging their local communities around issues of social justice, compassion, and human flourishing rather than internal church activities. - The goal is for clergy to "speak truth to power" in their localities and encourage the church to serve the common good through both word and

1. “ Wesleyan Science or Wesleyan Engineering ? “
BARRY E JONES
Visiting Scholar in the Centre for Human Flourishing,Sarum College,Salisbury
Methodist Honorary Research Fellow, Methodist Local Preacher
Emeritus Professor of Manufacturing Metrology,Brunel University London
Former Vice President and Trustee of the Institution of Engineering and Technology(IET)
Adviser to the Hereford Technical University
Advisor to the China-UK Institute for Quality Engineering and Smart Technology (QUEST)
A Director of the Mercian Educational Trust (MET),South West Worcestershire
A Trustee of EngageMalvern
Website: bedwardjones.com Email: barryedwardjones@hotmail.com

2. Lansdowne Debates Malvern
Lansdowne Crescent Methodist Church,Malvern,Worcestershire.
Started a Programme of Public Engagement 2014 with bi-annual question-time
debates-discussions on Saturday evenings 7.45-9.30pm.Panel of four plus independent
chairperson.
To engage the public on important topics particularly those effecting vunerable people.
To put Methodist Church onto Malvern Hills map as an “inclusive compassionate social-
justice common-good “ worshipping community.
Attendance at each debate: between 60 and 100,approx.two-thirds non-church.
Wide publicity in local press,churches together,flyers,street/road distribution,poster adverts.
Free tickets via the Eventbrite website.
Chairpersons eg Chair of Methodist District,Chair of District Council,Archdeacon Worcester
Cathedral,Barrister and Head of Employment Law-regional solicitors.

3. Oct 2014 ”Why a Foodbank in Malvern?” (incl local MP)
March 2015 “Affordable Housing or Green Fields?”(incl local Housing Assn rep)
Oct 2015 “Worcestershire NHS:More or Less?” (incl Worcestershire Acute Hospitals
Trust rep)
March 2016 “European Union:Remain in or Leave?” (four local sixth formers:two per
side)
Oct 2016 “Influence of Migration on the UK:What does the Future Hold?”
March 2017 “Mental Health Matters:How do we Challenge Stigma and Rethink
Resources?” (incl Worcestershire Health and Care Trust reps)
Oct 2017 “Is Malvern a Safe Place to Live?” (incl Police Commander for area and
District Council officer for safety resilience)
March 2018 (prov) “Education Budget Cuts:How will Malvern Schools Cope?”(incl local
headteachers)
Oct 2018 (prov) “Old v Young:Growing Imbalance—Consequences?”
( incl national “think tank”)

4. Malvern Festival of Ideas
A multidisciplinary and inclusive festival of ideas on
what matters

5. What do we offer?
• Richness of a national and international
culture embracing the sciences and
humanities
• Sessions – Science, Philosophy, Economics,
Politics, Faith perspectives
• Six sessions throughout the weekend, each
with one or two speakers. Free to the
public.
• Art and Science Activity Day for young
people
• For 2018, a schools programme is offered
malvernfestivalofideas.org.uk scienceandfaith.org.uk

6. History
• Began in 2012 as Malvern Evolution Weekend
• Developed in 2013 as Malvern Science and Faith Weekend
• Re-branded in 2018 as Malvern Festival of Ideas to reflect the broad
range of disciplines involved
Year Theme Some speakers
2012 Evolution Mark Pallen;
2013 Sustainability Satish Kumar; Rianne ten Veen
2014 Universe Jocelyn Bell Burnell; Chris Lintott; Angie Hobbs
2015 Being Human Fern Elsdon-Baker; Raymond Tallis
2016 Compassion Anthony Seldon
2017 Uncertainty Tariq Ramadan; Marcus du Sautoy; Natalie
Bennett
2018 Conflict Mona Siddiqui; Rupert Smith; Guy Standing
malvernfestivalofideas.org.uk scienceandfaith.org.uk

7. Support for the venture
• Malvern Churches – hosting sessions; URC grant;
• Other local groups have provided help planning – Buddhist temple;
Transition Malvern Hills;
• Town Council – financial support 2016, 2017; publicity
• Worcestershire County Councillors – grants
• Schools – Chase School hosts sessions; 6th Form Charity Committee
provides support
• Donations from attendees
malvernfestivalofideas.org.uk scienceandfaith.org.uk

8. Martin Luther King Jr
“Power without love is reckless and abusive,
and love without power is sentimental and
anaemic. Power at its best is love
implementing the demands of justice, and
justice at its best is power correcting
everything that stands against love”

9. Science versus Engineering
Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and
understanding of the natural and social world following a
systematic methodology based on evidence provided by
experiment and/or observation.
Engineering is about invention,design,analyse,construction and
testing of machines,systems,structures and materials to fulfil
objectives and requirements while considering the limitations
imposed by practicality,regulation,safety,and cost.

10. Traditionally engineering did not require science,as
invention can come by “hunch” and “trial and error”
methods.
Science is now often applied after the invention has
been made to optimise design,construction and testing.
But science has always depended on engineering.
In Britain–science trys to claim engineering and the
resultant technology.This has and does cause
engineering to be seen solely as a “technicians job” and
this has been very damaging to the national economy.

11. Engineering for what works is far more important to
human well-being than science for understanding.
I will argue that loving action for what works for Godly
goodness in community and church is far more
important than theological underpinning,and seeking to
do this is far more important than theological believing.
=> SEEK FOR WHAT WORKS FOR GOODNESS.

12. How to do ENGINEERING research => TO CREATE
SOMETHING NEW
CREATIVITY problems, needs => ideas, hunches, inspiration
design, construction ,testing
redesign, reconstruction, retesting
something that works
provisional-adequate-good-optimum solution
TENACITY keep focused on the problem, the needs
recognise when must change direction
accept the “long view”
GENEROSITY accept previous good solutions that work
cultivate good interdisciplinary team-work
give credit to all team members

13. CITIZENS UK
Nationwide alliance of thousands of community
campaigners.
Never do for others what they can do for
themselves.Therefore fund community organisers to
work with people to achieve what they want to get
support and social justice in their locality => love at
work in our communities.
Matthew Bolton: “How To Resist—Turn Protest to
Power”,Bloomsbury 2017 £9.99, 160 pages.

14. ENGAGEMALVERN charitable incorporated organisation

15. SECULAR HUMANISM
Philosophy of people who seek to live good lives without religious or
superstitious beliefs.
A commitment to human wellbeing and a reliance on
reason,evidence,experience and naturalist view of the world.
Humanists UK (previously British Humanist Association) claims to
be”….open,inclusive,energetic,and modern,with people and their
stories placed first and foremost….”.
Increasing number of funerals taken by humaist celebrants.
There are now some fairly aggressive anti-religious athiests in
Humanists UK.
The National Secular Society promotes a secular democracy but not
atheism.

16. Wesleyan Science or Wesleyan Engineering ?
Questions BJ 19-10-2017
1. How do local Methodist churches deal with the culture of secular humanism?
1. What effort is and should be put into developing a biblical theology that is
realistic,understandable and meaningful to “individuals in the public square” in localities
in Britain today?
2. What Wesleyan theology/traditions might provide some guidance for the future
discipleship in local Methodist churches?
3. How can the local Methodist Church encourage community human flourishing post-
BREXIT ?
4. How do local Methodist churches evangelise individuals and “speak truth to power” in
their localities? What fraction of church time is devoted to these activities?
5. What is the following time ratio for a local church: time given to community common
good“social justice” to time given to community common good “compassion”? If not 1/1
what is to be done?
6. Is the selection,training/retraining and “performance” of presbyters/deacons “up to the
job” identified by answers to questions 1-6 ? If not,why not and what is to be done?

17. BJ discussion-proposal for British Methodism
“Train/retrain all Methodist presbyters to have livings as
combined presbyters & community organisers to grow
community and church “self-help with pastoral support”.
“Remove presbyters from most church committees at all
levels, most church funerals and most communions.”
“Selected local preachers(up-skilled) to do many of the
church funerals and church/home communions (possibly
paid fees and wearing gowns).”
“Members and administrators(up-skilled) to lead most
committee work(possibly paid fees).”

18. “Educate the British Methodist Church to this new way of
using up-skilled church human resources.All active
supernumerary ministers to follow this same new model of
working.”
“Put the up-skilled Methodist presbyters/active
supernumerary ministers into community organising work,
weekly to attend worship and preach sermons based on
these experiences and their biblical theological insights.”
“Most of their time to be given to seeking to engage local
communities with their churches and the churches with
their local communities by showing God’s love for justice,
peace and inclusive common good, individual and
community transformations through word and action.”
“Develop this new form of Christian discipleship throughout
the nation for impact as the leading non-state free church”.

19. Questions of Jesus
Dr John Inge,Bishop of Worcester, Church Times, 29 September 2017
“…..Jesus was forever asking questions,and seldom answered
them.In the Gospels, he asks 307 questions,and he is asked 183
questions himself,directly or indirectly, and only answers three
of them straightforwardly. To the others he gives no
response,changes the subject,asks another question, tells a
story, or says that it is the wrong question. The only thing on
which he concentrates insistently is the goodness and reliability
of God…..”

20. “Those who tell the stories run the world”
“Develop the right story”
“Learn how to tell it” (simple,intelligible,grounded in
reality)
“Tell it where people will hear it”
“Tell it to new people “
Questions
“So then what is your Christian Narrative? “
“How will you tell it? ”
“Where will people hear it?”