Gaggero debtor exam

ORIGINAL
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
STEPHEN M. GAGGERO, also known STEPHEN M. BLANCHARD,
Plaintiff,
STEVEN SCHLEIN, JOHN STEIN, VENICE NORTH BEACH COALITION, TUCK
MULLIGAN,
Defendants.
No. BC 109521
DEBTOR’S EXAMINATION OF STEPHEN GAGGERO,
the plaintiff herein, taken by the defendants, at 111 North Hill
Street, Los Angeles, California, at 9:41 a,m.,
Wednesday, J4ne 20, 2001, before
Pamela J. Fugate, CSR 11775, RPR.
Hutchings Number 01-10517-NO
HUTCHINGS
COURT REPORTERS, LLC
CR 649
GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES
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as
vs

1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2 For Plaintiff:
3 KNAPP, PETERSEN & CLARKE
4 BY STEPHEN M. HARRIS
5 500 North Brand Boulevard, 20th Floor
6 Glendale, California 91203-1904
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8 For Defendants:
9 GELFAND & STEIN LLP
10 BY CRAIG J. STEIN
11 11755 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 1230
12 Los Angeles, California 90025
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HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 INDEX
2 WITNESS: STEPHEN GAGGERO
3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 Mr. Stein 4
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7 EXHIBITS
8 DEFENSE DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED MARKED
9 1 Subpena duces tecum 25 167
10 2 Grant Deed 104 167
11 3 Jackson Federal Bank 128 167
statement
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4 Genova Holdings LLC 128 167
13 Certificate of Membership
14 5 Protective Order 166 167
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16 Questions the witness refuses to answer or that are marked at
request of counsel are indicated in the transcript with
17 a plus (+) sign and are located on the following pages and lines:
12-10, 13-24, 16-13, 18-22, 22-9, 24-18, 35-16,
18 40-6, 43-24, 47-22, 49-19, 74-1, 85-24, 91-9, 91-14, 92-10,
136-9, 138-1, 144-7, 145-2, 154-13, 154-18, 155-21,
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1 STEPHEN GAGGERO,
2 the plaintiff herein, having been sworn, testifies as
3 fo1low:
4
5 -EXAMINATION-
6
7 BY MR. STEIN:
S Q. Can you state and spell your name, please.
9 A. Yes. My name is Steve Gaggero, G-A-G--G-E-R-O.
10 Q. Are you known by any other names?
11 A. No. That’s the only name I’m known by.
12 Q. Have you used any other names in the last ten
13 years?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Before we go any further, there’s a gentleman
16 sitting behind you. I believe his name is Steven Schlein.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. It’s my understanding through his testimony in
19 front of a Judge Berrera that he no longer has an interest
20 in the case financially, that he is no longer a creditor,
21 that, in fact, he assigned his interest to a Mark Goldwitz.
22 And so what I’d like is to know from Mr. SchJ.ein,
23 who is sitting next to the court reporter, if, in fact, he
24 has a financial interest in this case, if he is actually a
25 creditor, and how much that financial interest is. I’d
4
I like him to state that on the record, please, before we go
2 any further; otherwise, I’ll have to write a bunch of
3 things.
4 MR. HARRIS: I’ll concur in my client’s request.
S MR. STEIN:
6 Q. Then write all the notes you’d like. He’s not
7 under examination. He’s under no obligation. He’s a
8 member of the public. He’s absolutely entitled to be here.
9 If you care to write, then write.
10 A. He is -- he’s a member of the public?
11 Q. He’s a member of the public.
12 A. How much is he owed?
13 Q. It’s not your examination.
14 A. Because what I want -- I’d like to know how
15 much.
16 Q. Mr. Gaggero, have you been known by any other
17 names in the last ten years?
18 A. I’d like to know --
19 MR. STEIN: Let’s take a break.
20 Let’s go up to the judge, Mr. Gaggero.

21 (Interruption in the proceedings.)
22 MR. STEIN: Are we back on the record.
23 MR. HARRIS: I guess so.
24 MR. STEIN: Okay. Let the record reflect that we
25 had an appearance before Commissioner Gold in Department
5
1 1-A, who is substituting for Commissioner Gross.
2 MR. HARRIS: Commissioner Levin.
3 MR. STEIN: Excuse me, Arnold Levin.
4 And initially, Mr. Gaggero was ordered to and did
5 turn over one black wristwatch with a Casio name on it.
6 Mr. Gaggero stated the value of this wristwatch was
7 approximately $35.
8 A. I think it’s 50, actually.
9 Q. You stated “35” to the judge.
10 A. I’ve reconsidered it.
11 Should we go back up and talk to the judge about it?
12 Q. We’ll say 50.
13 A. Okay. $50.
14 Q. $50 value.
15 And he was ordered to turn over $25 in cash, and
16 that will also be credited to the judgment, and that is as
17 of this date, June 20th, 2001.
18 Okay. The commissioner also Stated that the
19 question that was posed as to the names Chat he has been
20 known by for the last ten years is not confidential
21 financial information, and he was directed to answer it.
22 And, further, that Mr. Schlein is entitled to attend
23 this examination and not be questioned by Mr. Gaggero or
24 his counsel at this time because it’s not part of this
25 proceeding.
6
1 A. He also indicated he’s a member of the public.
2 Q. He’s also a party.
3 A. That’s not been established yet.
4 So I’m going to write answers rather than speak them
5 when I testify Co sensitive financial information because
6 it’s my belief that Mr. Schlein is only a member of the
7 public because he is not a judgment creditor.
8 You failed to tell the judge that you would not, nor
9 would he, divulge the amount that Mr. Schlein claims to be
10 owed, and I think that is a reasonable request from a
11 judgment debtor.
12 MR. HARRIS: The judge already said he could just
13 write down the answers to confidential financial
14 information.
15 MR. STEIN:

16 Q. Correct. We don’t dispute that. Okay.
17 Then any other names that you have used for the last
18 ten years?
19 A. There’s one other thing.
20 I think that order says it has to be attached to
21 this deposition or this creditor’s exam, and we should
22 advise the court reporter that there is an order on
23 confidentiality about this transcript, so you would not be
24 able to disseminate it without my approval or my counsel’s
25 approval.
7
1 And, further, that I will be handing you answers
2 periodically throughout this deposition; you, the court
3 reporter, that I feel are sensitive financial information
4 so that Mr. Schlein or other members of the public don’t
5 hear my answer, and you can enter it into the transcript.
6 That’s why the transcript is protected and confidential.
7 And I’m stating for the record until we are able to
8 get to the bottom of the inconsistencies in Mr. Goldwitz’s
9 and Mr. Schlein’s position in front of Judge Berrera,
10 and -- as recently as last week -- we’re going to consider
11 Mr. Schlein a member of the public.
12 And if you disseminate any information to him,
13 Mr. Stein, we’ll hold you responsible for that. Okay?
14 MR. STEIN: Do whatever you think is appropriate.
15 MR. HARRIS: And you gave a copy of the protective
16 order to the court reporter?
17 MR. STEIN: That will be part of the record.
18 It’s called “Order on Motion for Continuance and for
19 Protective Order.” It was filed in this court on
20 May 23rd, 2001. It was signed on that -- on May 22nd, 2001
21 by Commissioner Murray, M-U-R--R-A-Y, Gross, G—R-O-S-s.
22 THE WITNESS: What’s the date today? I don’t have
23 my watch anymore.
24 MR. HARRIS: 6-20.
25 MR. STEIN:
8
1 Q. Okay. May I have the names that you have used
2 in the last ten years?
3 A. Stephen Michael Blanchard, B-L-A-N--C-H-A-R.-D,
4 and Stephen Michael Gaggero.
S Q. Is “Stephen,” “S-T-E-P-H-E-N”?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is your date of birth?
8 A. October 5th, 1955.
9 Q. And where were you born?
10 A. I was born in California.

11 Q. Where in California?
12 A. I don’t remember.
13 Q. Is it in Southern California or Northern
14 California?
15 A. Southern California.
16 Q. And where do you presently reside?
17 A. I stay at 938 Palisades Beach Road, in
18 Santa Monica.
19 Q. When you say you “stay” at that address, what
20 does that mean?
21 A. That’s where I stay.
22 Q. Are you an owner of that property at that
23 address?
24 A. No, I’m not an owner.
25 Q. Are you a tenant of the property at that
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1 address?
2 A. No, Pm not a tenant. I’m a licensee.
3 Q. You are a licensee?
4 A. That’s correct.
5 Q. And what in your definition is a licensee?
6 A. I’m licensed to live there.
7 Q. And by who are you licensed to live there?
8 A. Fred Harris.
9 Q. And who is Fred Harris?
10 A. He’s the owner of the property, or he was.
11 Q. Is he presently alive or dead?
12 A. He’s dead.
13 Q. And how long have you stayed at this address,
14 938 Palisades Beach Road?
15 A. I’m not sure.
16 Q. More than a year?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. More than two years?
19 A. I think so.
20 Q. More than three years?
21 A. I don’t think so.
22 Q. Prior to 938 Palisades Beach Road in
23 Santa Monica, California, where did you live?
24 And give me five years.
25 A. I don’t remember exactly. I think it was a
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1 place in Indio I lived at.
2 Q. In Indio.
3 Do you have an address in Indio?
4 A. No, I don’t.

5 Q. And how long did you live in Indio?
6 A. Idon’t remember exactly. Maybe six months.
7 Q. And before you lived in Indio, where did you
8 reside?
9 A. I think at 517 Ocean Front Walk.
10 I may be forgetting some places in between there.
11 Q. And that is where?
12 A. In Venice.
13 Q. And how long did you live at 517 Ocean Front
14 Walk?
16 Q. Can you estimate?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, within the last ten years, you lived at
19 that address?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you presently employed?
22 A. I do work for Pacific Coast Management and
23 some other companies.
24 Q. Do you have an address for Pacific Coast
25 Management?
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1 A. 1437 Victoria Avenue.
2 Q. And that is where?
3 A. Ventura.
4 Q. Do you have the ZIP code?
S A. 93003.
S Suite 201.
7 Q. And what sort of business is Pacific Coast
8 Management?
9 A. It’s a management company.
10 + Q. And what do they manage?
11 A. All kinds of things.
12 Q. For instance?
13 A. Last time I was in a debtor’s exam, the judge
14 said that I didn’t have to disclose information about
16 companies that I do not have an ownership interest in, and
16 so I would think that Pacific Coast Management would have a
17 right to protective order against any questions pertaining
18 to their business,
19 Q. They may be.
20 MR. HARRIS: We’re going to formally object on the
21 grounds it invades the privacy rights of confidential
22 information of Pacific Coast Management.
23 MR. STEIN: Are you instructing him not to answer?
24 MR. HARRIS: Yes.
26 MR. STEIN We will be continuing this examination

12
HtTCHING5 COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 for another date because the judge is unavailable today, so
2 when we complete this portion of the testimony today, we’ll
3 go and get a new date for Mr. Gaggero to return.
4 And I’d like the court reporter to mark the
S transcript wherever Mr. Gaggero is instructed not to
6 answer.
7 Q. I won’t ask this question again, but I presume
8 if your counsel advises you not to answer a question,
9 you’re going to follow that advice?
11 Q. You said that you do some work for some other
12 companies besides Pacific Coast Management; is that
13 correct?
14 A. That’s what I said.
15 Q. Can you identify the names ot any of those
16 companies?
17 A. I do work for Avalon Corporation.
18 Q. And do you have an address for Avalon
19 Corporation?
20 A. They have a P.O. box. They don’t have an
21 office.
22 Q. And the post office box is?
23 A. 2960. Ventura 93002, I think.
24 + Q. Do you happen to have a telephone number for
25 Pacific Coast Management?
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HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS1 LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 A. Ido.
2 Q. Can you give that to, me please?
3 A. I think that would be confidential information
4 that is --
5 MR. HARRIS: On that basis, I’m going to object to
6 that question and instruct him not to answer.
7 MR. STEIN: A telephone number that is publicly
8 available is confidential?
9 MR. HARRIS: You’re assuming it’s publicly
10 available.
11 MR. STEIN: So on the basis that it’s confidential
12 information, you’re instructing him not to answer?
13 MR. HARRIS: Confidential information reflected by
14 right of a third party who is not here.
15 Correct. I’m instructing him not to answer.
16 MR. STEIN: Any basis for that besides the claim
17 that it’s confidential?
18 MR. HARRIS: Well, it also cannot lead to the
19 discovery of any assets, I would say, if it’s not his
20 company.
21 MR. STEIN; If they owe him money, I’m entitled to
22 find out about that.

23 MR. HARRIS: You can ask him.
24 MR. STEIN: I will.
25 Q. Does Pacific Coast Management owe you any
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1 money?
2 A. I don’t know. I don’t think so. I mean they
3 pay me from time to time, but I dont know, as I sit here
4 today, if they owe me money.
5 Q. When was the last time they paid you?
6 A. I’m not sure when. Within the last few weeks.
7 Q. How do they pay you? By cash or by check?
S A. Sometimes by check.
9 Q. Okay. Avalon Corporation. I’ve noted on
10 public records that you were listed as the president of
11 Avalon Corporation; is that still correct?
12 A. I think so. I’m not sure. I think I am.
13 Q. You think you are?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Do you know the names of any other officers of
16 Avalon Corporation besides yourself as the president?
17 A. I can’t think of any right now.
18 Q. What sort of work you do for Avalon
19 Corporation?
20 A. Not much any longer. I just maintain -- I
21 really don’t do anything any longer with Avalon.
22 Q. Are you a stockholder of Avalon Corporation?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you ever a stockholder of Avalon
25 Corporation?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how long ago was it that you ceased being
3 a stockholder of Avalon Corporation?
4 A. Somewhere in the mid-90s.
5 Q. And what did you do with your stock at the
6 time that you no longer were the owner of it?
7 A. I don’t remember exactly. I’m not sure.
8 Q. Are you an owner of Pacific Coast Management?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you ever an owner of Pacific Coast
1]. Management?
12 A. No.
13 + Q. Can you give me the name of any principal or
14 principals of Pacific Coast Management?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Is that because you don’t know, or is that
17 because you won’t give them to me?
18 A. Both.
19 MR. STEIN: Are you instructing him not to tell me
20 the name of the principals?

21 MR. HARRIS: Are you saying you don’t know the name
22 of the principals?
23 THE WITNESS: I’m not sure what he means by
24 “principals.”
25 What I’m thinking is if I do know, I think it’s
16
1 their business, not mine.
2 MR. STEIN:
3 Q. When I say “principal,” I mean the person --
4 that person or persons that give you assignment for work
5 and that you report to when you do work for Pacific Coast
6 Management.
7 Having said that, can you give me the names of those
8 people?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is that because you don’t know?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You do know?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you won’t give them to me?
16 MR. STEIN: And you’re instructing him not to answer
17 that?
18 BY MR. HARRIS: I’m instructing him not to answer on
19 the grounds that’s confidential commercial information, and
20 the information invades the right of privacy of a third
21 party who is not present at this examination today.
22 THE REPORTER: I’m going to need you to speak
23 louder.
24 MR. HARRIS: Sure. I can talk a lot louder, so
25 don’t worry.
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HUTCHING5 COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 MR. STEIN;
2 Q. Is there any other business besides Pacific
3 Coast Management or Avalon Corporation for whom you do
4 work?
5 A. From time to time, but I can’t think of any as
6 I sit here today.
7 Q. When was the last time that you did work for
8 any of these other entities?
9 A. I don’t remember any.
10 Q. How did you get here today, Mr. Gaggero?
11 A. I drove.
12 Q. What did you drive?
13 A. A Toyota.
14 Q. What year is the Toyota?
16 Q. What type of Toyota is it?

17 A. It’s a Land Cruiser.
18 Q. And who is the owner of Toyota Land Cruiser?
19 A. Not me.
20 Q. Are you using it with permission?
21 A. Yes.
22 + Q. And whose permission is it that was given to
23 you to use the vehicle?
24 MR. HARRIS: I’ll object on the grounds that invades
25 privacy rights of third party, and it invades the privacy
18
1 rights of third party who are not here at the judgment
2 debtor examination, and I’ll instruct him not to answer.
3 MR. STEIN:
4 Q. What color is the Land Cruiser?
S A. I don’t see that it’s a question that really
6 matters because it’s not mine, and so it’s immaterial.
7 MR. STEIN: Are you going instruct him not to
S answer?
9 MR. HARRIS: Answer that.
10 THE WITNESS: It’s white.
11 MR. STEIN:
12 Q. And the license plate on the vehicle, do you
13 know that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you use this vehicle regularly?
16 A. From time to time.
17 Q. Do you own any automobiles?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you own any other motor vehicles, cars,
20 boats, motorcycles, airplanes?
21 A. No, I don’t think so.
22 Q. Is there anything that you would refer to that
23 would help you answer that question?
24 A. No.
25 Q. No records that you keep as to vehicles or
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1 anything like that?
2 A. Not that I can think of.
3 Q. Can you tell me your social security number,
4 please?
5 A. I don’t know it by heart.
6 Q. Is your social security number 563-98-5388?
7 A. Sounds like it might be.
B Q. Do you use any other social security numbers
9 besides the one I just recited?
10 A. Pm not absolutely certain the one you just
11 recited is mine, but I only use my own social security

12 number.
13 Q. Are you married?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Are you divorced?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many times have you been divorced?
18 A. One.
19 Q. And your exwifers name, please?
20 A. Sherry.
21 Q. And her last name?
22 A. Gaggero.
23 Q. Does she use “Gaggero,” or does she use her
24 maiden name?
25 A. I don’t think -- I think she remarried.
20
1 Q. Do you know where she lives?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Where did she live the last time you were in
4 contact with her?
5 A. In Santa Barbara.
6 Q. Do you have an address in Santa Barbara?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And when was it that you had your last contact
9 with her?
10 A. I do&t remember.
11 Q. Within the last. five years?
12 A. I think so, yes.
13 Q. When were you divorced from her?
14 A. In the mid-’90s.
15 Q. Do you have any children?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you reside with anyone else besides
18 yourself at 937 Palisades Beach Road in Santa Monica,
19 California?
20 A. You mean, do I cohabitate?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Is there anyone else that lives in that
24 property that you don’t cohabitate with?
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Q. Friends of yours?
A. Yes.
Q. No one there permanently?
A. Not permanently, no.
Q. Is there anyone there today?
A. Today? Right now? I don’t know.
Q. Was anyone there last night?
A. Yes.
+ Q. And who would that be?
A. I don’t think it’s important.
Q. That person may have information about your
assets. I’m entitled to inquire.
A. They don’t.
Q. Please give me the person’s name.
A. No.
MR. STEIN: Are you going to instruct him?
MR. HARRIS: I’m going to instruct him not to answer that, as it
invades the privacy rights of third party who are not here today.
There’s been no showing this person has any knowledge about his
assets.
So on those two grounds, I’m instructing him not to answer.
MR. STEIN:
Q. Who is Stephanie Boren?
22
1 A. My stepsister.
2 Q. And her middle name is Rae, R-A-E?
3 A. I don’t know how it’s spelled.

4 Q. But it is “Rae,T’ regardless of how it is
5 spelled?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where does Miss Boren, B-O-R..E-N, reside?
S A. In San Diego County.
9 Q. May I have her address, please?
10 A. I don’t know it.
11 Q. May I have her phone number?
12 A. I don’t know it.
13 Q. Do you have a telephone directory on the cell
14 phone that the court allowed you to keep this morning?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you check on there and tell me whether
17 Ms. Boren’s telephone number is listed in that directory?
18 A. It’s not.
19 Q. Okay. You have tiled a lawsuit which is
20 presently pending in this court. It is entitled Stephen
21 Gaggero versus Anna Marie Yura, Y-U-R-A.
22 In the complaint that I have seen in that case, you
23 have indicated that Stephanie Rae Boren is an accommodator
24 for you in connection with the rights that you claim in
25 938 Palisades Beach Road in Santa Monica, California.
23
1 Can you explain to me how you own any interest in
2 the rights Chat Ms. Boren owns in that property?
3 MR. HARRIS: I’m going to object on the grounds it
4 assumes facts not in evidence and mischaracterjzes
5 evidence.
6 But you can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: I don’t understand the question.
8 MR. STEIN:
9 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Ms. Boren has any
10 rights whatsoever to the real property that is located
11 commonly known as 938 Palisades Beach Road in Santa Monica,
12 California?
13 A. I think that’s a legal question, and I don’t
14 know that I’m qualified to answer it.
15 MR. HARRIS: Okay. Object to the extent it calls
16 for legal conclusion.
17 MR. STEIN:
18 + Q. Okay. To the extent that you have any
19 information as to what rights Ms. Boren has, would you
20 please tell me.
21 MR. HARRIS: Again, object to the extent it calls
22 for legal conclusion.
23 But if you understand the question and you have the
24 information --
25 THE WITNESS: Well, I think it’s a third party, and
24

1 I think Ms. Boren should be allowed to have matters that
2 pertain to her protected, and so I’m not going to answer
3 any questions pertaining to Ms. Boren or her rights in this
4 debtor’s exam because it has nothing do with my assets.
S MR. HARRIS: Okay. Then to the extent the question
6 would call for any information also about her rights and
7 her ownership interest, it’s objected to on the grounds
8 that it invades the privacy rights of third party who
9 aren’t present here at the judgment debtor’s examination.
10 He’s instructed not to answer.
11 MR. STEIN:
12 Q. Did Ms. Boren assign to you or give to you any
13 rights in the property that is commonly known as
14 938 Palisades Beach Road, Santa Monica, California?
15 A. That question is difficult to answer because I
16 don’t understand it exactly.
17 MR. HARRIS: Object to the extent it calls for legal
18 conclusion and vague and ambiguous.
19 Rephrase it if you want.
20 MR. STEIN: Okay.
21 Q. Let’s see if I can take it from the cat’s
22 mouth.
23 Let me switch subjects here for a second.
24 Mr. Gaggero, you were served a subpena duces tecum
25 in connection with this examination.
25
1 I’m going to give a copy of it to the court reporter
2 and ask that she mark that as Exhibit number 1 to your
3 deposition. And I’ll give you a copy, and I’ll give --
4 I presume, Mr. Harris1 that you have a copy and you
5 can share the copy that Irve provided to your client.
6 This document lists several categories of documents.
7 Have you brought any documents with you today that
8 are responsive to the document production requests in this
9 subpena?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. May I have them, please.
12 A. Yes (indicating)
13 Q. These are the only documents that are
14 responsive to all of the categories in that request for
15 production of documents?
16 MR. HARRIS: Within his possession, custody or
17 control, yeah.
18 MR. STEIN;
19 Q. I’m going to review this. Let’s go through
20 it.
21 You’ve provided me with two pieces of paper. One of
22 them is a statement of account from Jackson Federal Bank,
23 dated April 27th, 2001, that reflects an ending balance of

24 $3,817.07. It reflects that it is in the name of
25 Stephen M. Gaggero at 2802 Santa Monica Boulevard,
26
HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS LLC GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 Santa Monica, California, 90404-2410.
2 Mr. Gaggero. What address is 2802 Santa Monica
3 Boulevard?
4 A. It’s an address that that document got mailed
5 to.
6 Q. And why would the bank have mailed that
7 document to that address?
8 A. Because that’s the address where a lawyer of
9 mine practices law from time to time.
10 Q. And who is that lawyer?
1]. A. Joe Praske, P-R-A-S-K-E
12 Q. Do you have any other of your business
13 information sent to Mr. Praske?
14 A. I don’t know.
15 Q. The balance in this account as of April 27 was
16 aPproximately $3,800.
17 Is that balance more or less today, if you know?
18 A. I think it’s less.
19 Q. And when you receive payment or, for example,
20 from Pacific Management Company by check, the checks would
21 be deposited in this account?
22 A. Sometimes,
23 Q. You’ve also handed me a document entitled
24 Genova Holdings LLC, Certificate of Membership, and it’s
25 dated March 31st, 1998, and it reflects that you are a
27
2 Q. Any problems with your health that would
3 prevent you from giving full and complete answers today?
5 Q. Within the last 24 hours, have you consumed
6 any alcoholic beverages?
7 A. Yes.
S Q. And what did you consume?
9 A. I consumed two martinis.
10 Q. When did you consume those?
11 A. Last night at dinner.
12 Q. What time was that approximately?
13 A. I don’t remember exactly.
14 Q. Would the consumption of two martinis impair
15 your ability to recall or answer questions today?
17 Q. Are you taking any prescription medication?

18 A. No.
19 Q. Are you taking any nonprescription medication?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you taking any illegal narcotics?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So, to your knowledge, there’s no medical or
24 physical reason that your memory would be impaired in any
25 way today?
29
1 A. What’s your question again?
2 Q. Do you know of any reason why your mental or
3 physical ability to recall would be in any way impaired
4 today?
5 MR. EARRIS: Any different than normal.
6 THE WITNESS: Any different than normal, no, I
7 don’t.
8 MR. STEIN:
9 Q. So these are the only two documents that are
10 in your possession or custody that were responsive to this
11 document production subpena?
12 A. You’ve already asked me that question.
13 Yes.
14 Q. The answer is “yes.1’
15 May I see your driver’s license, please.
16 A. I lost it.
17 Q. You lost it.
18 So you drove here today without a driver’s license?
20 Q. What is your driver’s license number?
21 A. I don’t know it offhand. I’m sorry.
22 Q. When did you lose your driver’s license?
23 A. The other night,
24 I lost it and my pocket knife. Must have fallen out
25 of my pants.
30
1 Q. Where did this occur?
2 A. It occurred at a concert.
3 Q. Which concert was that?
4 A. Paul Simon.
5 Q. Where was the concert?
6 A. It was at the Greek theater.
7 Q. Did you lose your wallet, as well?
8 A. I don’t carry a wallet.
9 Q. Do you have any other bank accounts besides
10 the account at Jackson Federal Bank?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have any savings accounts besides what

13 may be at Jackson Federal Bank?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Does any bank extend to you a line of credit?
16 A. No.
17 Q. In the last five years have you requested a
18 loan from any credit card or banking institution?
20 Q. Don’t know or you don’t recall?
21 A. I don’t know. I don’t recall. Both.
22 Q. What is the GBC Trust?
24 Q. How about the GBC Corporation?
31
1 Q. Did there come a point in time when you
2 transferred any assets to a family trust in your name?
4 Q. Have you done any estate planning?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As part of that estate planning, did you
7 prepare a will?
8 A. I don’t know if I did or not.
9 Q. Did you prepare a living trust?
10 A. I don’t know what a living trust is.
11 Q. Did you engage an attorney to prepare estate
12 planning documents for you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And who was that attorney?
15 A. Joe Praske.
16 Q. Did you sign documents that were prepared by
17 Mr. Praske?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you recall when it was when those
20 documents were signed?
21 A. Many different times.
22 Q. When was most recently that you can recall?
24 Q. Do you have copies of any of the documents
26 that Mr. Praske prepared for you in this regard?
32
1 A. No.
2 Q. Who has the documents?
3 A. Mr. Praske.
4 Q. Anyone else?
5 A. Not to my knowledge.
6 Q. Your fathers name is Stephen Gaggero, as

7 well?
9 Q. Where does your father Stephen Gaggero reside?
10 A. In San Diego County.
11 Q. Can you give me the address where he resides?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know the address where he resides?
14 A. Not of f the top of my head.
15 Q. Is it in a city called Fallbrook?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And is your mother’s name Billie, B-I-L-L-I-E,
18 Gaggero?
19 A. Yes, my stepmother.
20 Q. You changed your name several years ago from
21 Blanchard to Gaggero; is that correct?
23 Q. And the purpose that you stated for doing that
24 was that you had reestablished your relationship with your
25 natural father whose name is the same as yours; is that
33
1 correct?
3 Q. And I take it that Blanchard was your mother’s
4 maiden name?
5 A. No.
S Q. Where did the name “Blanchard” come from?
7 A. A stepfather I had.
8 Q. What was his first name?
9 A. Glen.
10 Q. And is Mr. Glen Blanchard still alive?
11 A. I believe so.
12 Q. When was the last time you had any contact
13 with him?
14 A. A long time ago.
15 Q. More than ten years?
IS A. Yes.
17 Q. The last time you had contact with
18 Glen Blanchard, where did he live, if you know?
19 A. In Canada.
20 Q. Is your natural mother alive?
21 A. I believe so.
22 Q. When was the last time you had contact with
23 her?
24 A. A long time ago.
34

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know where it was she was when you last
3 had contact with her?
4 A. I believe it was Canada, but that’s where she
5 resided.
6 Q. Do you know whether she is alive today?
7 A. I believe she is.
S Q. Have you had any contact with her in the last
9 ten years?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And what is her first name?
12 A. Barbara.
13 Q. Aside from Stephanie Boren, do you have any
14 brothers or sisters?
15 A. Yes.
16 + Q. Can you give me their names, please.
17 A. And the reason for this line of questioning
18 is?
19 Q. Because they may have property that belongs to
20 you in their keeping for you --
21 A. They do not.
22 Q. -- or may have knowledge of that, and I’m
23 entitled to look at it and talk to them and find out.
24 So if you’d please give me their names.
25 A. I don’t know that they need to be harassed by
35
HUTCHING5 COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 yOU. They don’t.
2 MR. HARRIS: Based on his testimony, they don’t have
3 any of his property, I’m objecting on the grounds that
4 you’re seeking information about third parties that is
5 protected by the right of privacy.
6 These third parties aren’t here to -- aren’t here to
7 present their objection, so I’m obligated to present it on
B their behalf.
9 And based on that objection, I’m instructing him not
10 to answer.
11 MR. STEIN: Do you represent any of these parties?
12 MR. HARRIS: I don’t have to represent them to
13 assert their privacy interests. I’m obligated to assert
14 those interests on their behalf since they’re not present
15 here today.
16 MR. STEIN:
17 Q. Do you have a safe deposit box in your name?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have access to any other person’s safe
20 deposit box?
22 Q. You don’t know whether you have access to any
23 other person’s safe deposit box?
24 A. I don’t think I do, but I don’t want to

25 preclude the possibility.
36
1 Q. So in the last year, have you put anything in
2 a safe deposit box anywhere?
3 A. No.
4 Q. In the last year, have you taken anything out
5 of a safe deposit box anywhere?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Can you please tell me the name of every
8 corporation in which you have an ownership interest?
9 A. I think I have ownership interest in a
10 corporation called “Clipper” something or other. I don’t
11 know the name of it.
12 Q. And what was Clipper?
13 A. It was just a corporation.
14 Q. What sort of business was it engaged in?
15 A. I don’t think it was engaged in any business.
16 Q. Were you a principal; for example, the
17 president of Clipper?
19 Q. Were you an officer?
21 Q. When was the last time that you had anything
22 to do whatsoever with Clipper?
24 Q. Are there any other corporations that you have
25 an ownership interest in, privately or publicly traded
37
HUTCHINGE COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 corporations?
3 Q. Do you own any stock in any corporation?
4 A. I don’t think so. Maybe Clipper, but I’m not
5 sure.
6 Q. Any stock in any publicly traded corporation?
B Q. Do you have any brokerage accounts, stock
9 brokerage accounts?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you own any mutual funds?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you control any mutual funds as a trustee
14 or executor of a trust?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you placed any assets, real or personal,
17 in any trust in the last five years?
18 A. I don’t think so, but I’m not sure.

19 Q. How about within the last ten years?
20 A. Pm not sure.
21 Q. The reason I bring it up is that your other
22 attorney, Stephen Garcia, has stated to me he created a
23 family trust and transferred all of your assets in the
24 family trust, and the result of that was that it rendered
25 you judgment-proof.
38
1 So, therefore, having been advised by your attorney,
2 can you give me the name of your family trust?
3 A. I don’t have --
4 MR. HARRIS: Objection to the extent it misstates
5 the evidence and assumes facts not in evidence.
6 But you can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: I don’t know why Mr. Garcia would have
8 said that to you.
9 MR. HARRIS: If he did.
10 MR. STEIN:
11 Q. Assuming for a moment that he did, but what’s
12 the name of your family trust?
13 A. I don’t have a family -- quote, unquote,
14 “family trust” that I’m -- I don’t really understand what
15 you mean by that.
16 Like my family trust?
17 I don’t have -- I don’t own a family trust, if
18 that’s what you’re asking.
19 Q. Do you control a family trust?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you the beneficiary of a family trust?
22 MR. HARRIS: To the extent that it calls for legal
23 conclusion -- but he can answer if he understands.
24 THE WITNESS: I’m not sure if I am or not.
25 I may be the beneficiary of a family trust.
39
I MR. STEIN:
2 Q. What family trust might you be a beneficiary
3 of?
4 A. The Gaggero Family Trust, but I’m not sure if
5 I arnor not.
6 + Q. And who established the Gaggero Family Trust?
7 A. I don’t know, but since it’s not -- since I’m
8 not sure that I’m a beneficiary and since it’s not my
9 trust, I really don’t think that any questioning along the
10 lines of that trust are your business at this time until
11 whoever it is that does control the trust -- and I don’t
12 know -- has a right to protect any third-party interest.
13 MR. HARRIS: So on the ground that he stated he has
14 no ownership interest in it, I’m objecting on the grounds
15 that the question invades constitutional right to privacy

16 of third party who aren’t present at the judgment debtor’s
17 examination, and I’m instructing him not to answer.
18 MR. STEIN:
19 Q. When we were in court this morning and the
20 court ordered you to turn a portion of your money over to
21 me as credit against the judgment, where did you get that
22 money?
24 Q. Did you get it out of your bank account at
25 Jackson Federal Bank?
40
RUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did someone give it to you?
4 Q. Did you find it on the Street?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you steal it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. But you have no idea how that money wound up
9 in your pocket today?
10 A. It’s been in my pocket for some time.
11 Q. How did it get there?
12 A. I dont remember.
13 Q. Did you earn it?
14 A. I’m sure I did.
15 Q. How did you earn it?
16 A. I don’t remember. I don’t remember where it
17 came from, so how can I tell you how specifically I earned
18 it or what portion of the money we’re even talking about.
19 MR. HARRIS: You answered. Okay.
20 MR. STEIN:
21 Q. After you leave here today, are you going to
22 replenish your supply of cash?
23 A. I haven’t made any decisions in that regard.
24 Q. If you were, where would you get the cash
25 from?
41
HtJTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 A. I would -- if I needed some more money, I have
2 a little money in that bank account.
3 Q. Do you have on office where you work?
4 A. I work at 938 Palisades Beach Road.
S Q. And are there any furnishings at that address?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are any of those furnishings yours?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Are they all the part of the property itself?

11 Q. Was that furniture there when you started
12 living there?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was it brought there after - - excuse me for a
15 moment.
17 MR. STEIN: Let the record reflect that Mr. Schlein
18 has departed the presence of this examination.
19 MR. HARRIS: After passing you a note.
20 MR. STEIN: After passing me a note, yes.
21 Q. Okay. So let me get back to the furniture
22 that is in the premises at 938 Palisades Beach Road.
23 Was it there when you moved in?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It was there after someone brought it there
42
1 after you moved in?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And who brought it there?
S Q. Just showed up mysteriously one day?
6 A. I don’t remember who brought it there.
7 Q. Was it brought by professional movers?
9 Q. Was is it brought by you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was anything besides your clothing that is in
12 that place brought into that place by you?
14 Q. Did you bring a desk into the place?
16 Q. Did you bring a television into the place?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is there a television in the residence?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many televisions?
21 A. One.
22 Q. Is there a telephone in the residence?
23 A. Yes.
24 + Q. May I have the telephone number, please?
25 A. No, it’s not my telephone number.
43
1 MR. HARRIS: Okay. To the extent the questions
2 calls for information protected by the right of privacy
3 with regard to third party who aren’t present at the
4 judgment debtor’s examination, instruct him not to answer.
5 MR. STEIN: You know that you moved for protective

6 order seeking to preclude him from giving his telephone
7 number, and the court denied that.
S MR. HARRIS: Do you have -- can you show me that
9 portion of the order?
10 MR. STEIN: Here’s the order (indicating)
11 His telephone number is not protected by that.
12 THE WITNESS: I don’t have a telephone number.
13 MR. STEIN:
14 Q. What is the telephone number that people who
15 know you use to call you?
16 A. What is the reason for that?
17 Since it’s not my telephone number, why would that
18 be an issue here?
19 Q. So I can contact the telephone company and
20 find out how the bill is paid?
21 A. I see.
22 Q. Can you give me that telephone number, please.
23 A. Yes, it’s (310) 721-1999.
24 Q. Does that ring at the residence at
25 938 Palisades Beach Road?
44
1 A. No.
2 Q. Where does that ring?
3 A. That’s the cell phone that I use.
4 Q. That’s the cell phone.
5 And who owns that cell phone now that we’re talking
6 about it?
7 A. I’m not sure. I think it’s either Avalon or
8 Pacific Coast Management, but I’m not sure which.
9 Q. Do you pay the phone bill for that cellular
10 phone?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have a facsimile machine anywhere that
13 you use?
14 A. Well, Pacific Coast Management has a fax
15 machine. It’s not mine.
16 Q. And that would be located at their office at
17 the address that you gave me?
18 A. There’s one at 938 that I use.
19 Q. That belongs to Pacific management?
21 Q. Do you know whether Pacific management is a
22 corporation?
24 Q. Do you know whether it’s a partnership?
45

1 Q. Do you know whether it’s a sole
2 proprietorship?
3 A. I’m not sure. I don’t believe it’s a sole
4 proprietorship.
5 Q. Is there a computer at 938 Palisades Beach
6 Road?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does it belong to you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. To whom does it belong?
11 A. It belongs to somebody other than me.
12 Q. Who might that be?
13 A. Well, I don’t think it matters as long as it
14 doesn’t belong to me.
15 You keep asking questions about other people and
16 other entities possessions, not about mine. So I can tell
17 you it’s not my computer that I use.
18 Q. Understand that in a debtor’s examination, I’m
19 given an incredibly broad range of permissible questions to
20 ask to track down assets that you own, people that owe you
21 things, people who are holding things on your behalf.
22 You have professed, aside from having $3800 in the
23 bank, to not have any money, but somehow you seem to live a
24 nice lifestyle.
25 And I’m here -- and my goal and what I’ve been hired
46
1 for is to determine how you get the money to finance your
2 lifestyle.
3 So part of my questions are to be able ultimately to
4 talk to third parties who may or do owe you money or owe
5 you obligations or own things and are holding them on your
6 behalf. So that is the purpose for my questions.
7 So having said that, are you going to continue to
S instruct him not to answer who owns the computer?
9 MR. HARRIS: I didn’t instruct him.
10 MR. STEIN: Will you instruct him not to answer who
11 owns the computer at the residence 938 Palisades Beach
12 Road?
13 THE WITNESS: Everything you just said, I think
14 that’s fine.
15 And when you ask those parties questions, they’re
16 entitled to have lawyers defend their right to privacy.
17 And I don’t know how who owns the computer where I
18 work has anything to do with asking a person whether or not
19 they are holding an asset for me.
20 MR. STEIN:
21 Q. Fine.
22 + Can you tell me who owns the computer?
23 A. No, I don’t see that it matters.
24 MR. HARRIS: Okay. I’m going to instruct him not
25 answer on the grounds that -- well, do you know?

47
1 THE WITNESS: It’s not my computer, and who owns it
2 is immaterial.
3 MR. HARRIS: -- on the grounds it’s not relevant to
4 his assets. Also on the grounds that the privacy interests
5 of third party who aren’t here are being invaded by the
6 question and, therefore, I’m instructing him to protect the
7 privacy interest of those third parties.
S MR. STEIN:
9 Q. Do you enter data into that computer?
11 Q. Whose data do you enter into the computer?
12 Does it belong to you, or does it belong to someone
13 else?
14 A. I think that’s a legal question. I don’t know
15 the ramifications in that question.
16 Q. Do you keep your checkbook records in that
17 computer, for example?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you keep notes of things that you are
20 working on in that computer?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Then what sort of things do you enter into
23 that computer?
24 A. Letters that I might write.
25 Q. Letters to your attorneys or letters to your
48
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
S
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21
22
23
24
25
friends or both?
A. Both.
Q. Do you own any other office equipment?
A. I don’t own any office equipment.
Q. Do you own a desk?
A. No.
Q. Do you own a chair?
A. No.
Q. Is there a desk and a chair at Palisades Beach Road that you
use to work or sit on?
A. Yes.
Q. And who owns the desk and the chair?
A. It’s the same response. It’s not mine, so I don’t think it
matters who owns it.
Q. Do you rent it?
A. No, I do not.
MR. STEIN: Are you going to instruct him not to
tell me?
+ MR. HARRIS: Who owns it? If he knows.
MR. STEIN: Yes.
MR. HARRIS: Okay. Same objection.
One, he doesn’t own it. It has no material bearing
upon assets.
Two, since it’s owned by somebody else, the question invades the
privacy interests of the third party who isn’t
49
1 here at the debtor’s examination and, therefore, I’m
2 instructing him not to answer the question to protect the
3 third party’s privacy interests.
4 MR. STEIN: Why don’t you and I stipulate that if
S you instruct him not to answer on the ground of third party
6 privacy and you say that, that will be a sufficient
7 objection. And wetil deem it to be inclusive, as you have
8 just stated “objection, TI and save a little room in the
9 transcript.
10 MR. HARRIS: Well, I want to make sure I get my
11 objections on the record so - -
12 MR. STEIN: Okay. Fair enough.
13 Q. Mr. Gaggero, do you have any business
14 inventory?
15 A. I dont understand the question.

16 Q. In the nature of the work that you do, do you
17 sell anything?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you make anything?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you build anything?
22 A. No.
23 Q. In the work that you do for Pacific
24 Management, what is the nature of the work that you do?
25 A. I’m a consultant.
50
I Q. What do you consult upon?
2 A. Various things.
3 Q. Such as?
4 A. I don’t know an example right now.
5 Q. Do you consult on real estate development?
6 A. You’d have to define “real estate
7 development.”
8 Q. Building of a house or houses or a commercial
9 building.
11 Q. Are you presently a licensed building
12 contractor?
13 A. I think I am.
14 Q. At one point in time you certainly were; is
15 that correct?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. Do you know whether your license is current or
18 not?
20 Q. And the contractor’s license that you have or
21 had, what type of license was it?
22 A. A “B” license.
23 Q. Do you remember the license number?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And that was with the California contractor’s
51
I license board that issued the license?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And was it in the name of ‘1Gaggero” or in the
4 name of °Blanchard”?
6 Q. Do you presently use the name “Blanchard” at
7 all?
8 A. No.

9 Q. Have you ever heard of Boardwalk Sunset, LLC?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you own all or any part of Boardwalk
12 Sunset, LLC?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever transfer any property to
15 Boardwalk Sunset, LLC?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what did you transfer?
18 A. 601 Ocean Front Walk.
19 Q. When did you transfer that?
21 Q. How much were you paid?
22 A. Like five years ago.
23 I’m not sure.
24 Q. How much were you paid by Boardwalk Sunset,
25 LLC, for 601 Ocean Front Walk?
52
2 Q. Were you paid anything?
4 Q. And 601 Ocean Front Walk is in Venice,
5 California?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you presently have any interest in
S Boardwalk Sunset, LLC?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you stated that you never had any interest
Ii in Boardwalk Sunset, LLC; is that correct?
12 A. I don’t know if I did or not. I don’t think I
13 did.
14 Q. How about 511 Ocean Front Walk Trust, have you
15 ever heard of that?
17 Q. Do you have any specific recollection of
18 anything called 511 Ocean Front Walk Trust?
19 A. I have no specific recollection of that.
20 Q. Do you have any general recollection of 511
21 Ocean Front -- excuse me, Ocean Front Walk Trust?
22 A. No.
23 Q. It may be referred to as OFW Trust.
24 Does that help refresh your recollection one way or
25 another?
53
1 A. No.
2 Q. How about Avalon Development, does that name
3 mean anything to you?
4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what does it mean to you?
6 A. That’s part of Avalon Corporation.
7 Q. Was it formerly known as Blanchard
8 Construction Co. Inc.?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it changed its name?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you direct that its name be changed?
13 A. I donut remember.
14 Q. How about Avalon Farms, does that name mean
15 anything to you?
16 A. That’s part of the same Avalon Corporation.
17 Q. Does Avalon Corporation own any real property?
18 A. I’m sorry. What was the question?
19 Q. Does Avalon Corporation own any real property?
2]. Q. And Avalon Farms, what is Avalon Farms?
22 A. I don’t think it exists anymore.
23 Q. How about Avalon Sunset, have you ever heard
24 of that?
25 A. Yes.
54
1 Q. What was Avalon Sunset?
2 A. Avalon Sunset is Avalon Corporation.
3 Q. Its another name that Avalon Corporation
4 uses?
5 A. I think it’s the actual corporate name --
6 Q. And--
7 A. -- I’m not sure on that.
8 Q. Now, you gave me the name “Clipper” before.
9 Is it more fully Clipper Development?
10 A. It might be.
11 Q. Do you have any recollection one way or
12 another?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How about Clipper Estates, Ltd., have you ever
15 heard of that?
17 Q. How about Animal Art Gallery, Inc.?
18 A. That was a little -- that was a business a
19 long time ago I think I had some involvement with.
20 Q. Can you tell me about it.
21 A. I don’t remember much about it.
22 Q. Can you tell me what you remember?
23 A. Just that it was a business I was involved in
24 with somebody in Venice on -- a long time ago.
25 Q. And was it a corporation?
55

2 Q. Does it still exist?
4 Q. Do you have anything to do with it today?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How about Gingerbread Court L.P., have you
7 ever heard of that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what is or was Gingerbread Court L.P.?
10 A. I don’t know what it is or was.
11 Q. What is it?
12 A. It’s a limited partnership.
13 Q. Are you a limited partner of Gingerbread
14 Court?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Are you a limited partner of any limited
17 partnership?
19 Q. Were you ever within the last ten years a
20 limited partner of any limited partnership?
21 A. I might have been.
22 Q. Can you give me the names of those entities
23 that you might have been a limited partner?
24 A. I can’t think of any.
25 Q. Were you a limited partner of Gingerbread
56
1 Court Ltd. partnership?
2 A. I don’t know. I don1t think I was. I’m not
3 sure.
4 Q. Have you ever heard of Blu, B-L-U, House, LLC?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what is Blu House LLC?
7 A. A limited liability company.
8 Q. Do you have any ownership interest in
9 Blu House LLC?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever have any interest in Blu House
12 LLC?
14 MR. STEIN: Mr. Harris, would you like to take a
15 break?
16 MR. HARRIS: Whenever you want to.
17 MR. STEIN: I’m probably not going to be finished
18 here before 4:00 o’clock today.
19 MR. HARRIS: Take as long as you need.
20 MR. STEIN: I intend to.
21 MR. HARRIS: I’m perfectly content to work through.
22 MR. STEIN: Would you like to take a break?

23 THE REPORTER: Could we take a short one?
25 MR. STEIN: Let’s go back on the record.
57
1 Q. Mr. Gaggero, you were sworn by the court clerk
2 in Department 1-A under the penalty of perjury.
3 Do you recall doing that?
4 A. Yes.
5 And can we just make a note that this break has
6 taken a half hour.
7 Q. We broke at 11:10. It’s --
8 A. We broke at 11:07, actually1 and it’s now
9 11: --
10 MR. HARRIS: :35.
11 THE WITNESS: -- :36, So it’s a half an hour.
12 So since you took my lunch money away, I’m not going
13 to be having lunch, since there was a half hour, and now we
14 can just go on through.
15 MR. STEIN: Well, we’ll accommodate me and your
16 lawyer and the court reporter.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, the court reporter is a luxury.
18 MR. HARRIS: I want to go through. We don’t need
19 any other breaks.
20 MR. STEIN: I might.
21 Back on the record.
22 Could you read back the last question before we took
23 a break.
24 (The record is read by the reporter.)
25 MR. STEIN:
58
1 Q. So you don’t know whether you had any interest
2 in Mu House LLC?
4 Q. Are there any documents that might be anywhere
5 that would refresh your recollection as to whether you had
S an interest in Blu House LLC?
7 A. Not that I’m aware of.
8 Q. Does Mr. Joseph Praske keep all of your
9 business-related documents?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Does he keep some of your business-related
12 documents?
14 Q. Is that -- you indicated before that he kept
15 your trust or your estate planning documents?
16 A. No, I told you that he might. That he was the
17 one that created the estate planning.
18 Q. Okay. And you don’t have a copy of any of
19 that?

20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know anyone besides Mr. Praske who
22 might have a copy?
23 A. No.
24 You asked me that question already, didn’t you?
25 Q. I’m not sure.
59
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. What happens to your property if -- assuming
3 there is any, upon your death?
4 A. What property?
5 Q. Any of your property.
6 A. I don’t own any property.
7 Q. The shirt on your back?
8 A. I don’t know what happens to the shirt on my
9 back, I guess it disintegrates in a coffin. I don’t know.
10 Q. Did --
11 A. Let the record reflect were laughing.
12 Q. Did you provide in your estate planning
13 documents that any of your property, whatever it might be,
14 whether now acquired or hereafter acquired or now owned or
15 hereafter owned, be devised to someone or go to someone
16 upon your death?
17 A. I don’t remember that.
18 Q. Do you remember anything about your estate
19 planning documents on what happens to any property that you
20 might now own or might hereafter acquire?
21 A. No, I don’t know.
22 I don’t own any property so - and I don’t know
23 about here and after acquiring.
24 Isn’t that the same question, as well?
25 Q. You said you did some estate planning
60
1 documents, and you said you weren’t sure whether it
2 was a will or trust or what it was. And I’m just trying to
3 understand what your plan for your property, if there was
4 any, would be when you died.
5 And you’re telling me you don’t know?
6 A. Basically, yes.
7 Q. Boardwalk Sunset, LLC, have you ever heard ot
8 that?
9 A. Didn’t you already ask me that question?
10 No.
11 A. No? Actually, I think you did
12 Q. I didn’t.
13 MR. HARRIS: Yeah, I think you did, too. Yeah, I
14 have it here that you asked him. I have notes that

15 continue, too.
16 MR. STEIN: All right. Let’s move on.
17 MR. HARRIS: And then you went into 511 Ocean Front
18 Walk Trust.
19 MR. STEIN: Okay. I’m down the list.
20 Q. There was some property on Broad Beach in
21 Malibu that you once owned.
22 Do you recall that property?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What happened to that property?
25 A. It was sold.
61
1 Q. And when was it sold?
2 A. I dont remember.
3 Q. Within the last ten years?
4 A. Yes.
S Q. And how much was it sold for?
7 Q. Any idea?
8 A. No.
9 Q. A dollar?
10 Yes? No? More than a dollar?
12 Q. You don’t know?
13 A. That’s a silly question.
14 Q. I’m asking silly questions. I’m entitled to
15 silly answers.
16 Do you know whether it was more than a dollar?
17 A. No, I’m not sure, and I don’t want to
18 speculate.
19 Q. Was it more than a hundred dollars?
20 MR. HARRIS: Asked and answered.
21 THE WITNESS: Which sale?
22 MR. STEIN:
23 Q. I’m talking about the property on Broad Beach
24 in Malibu.
25 The property was sold sometime in the last ten
62
1 years?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes.
4 To whom was it sold?
5 A. Well, are you talking about when I owned it?
6 Q. When you owned it, yes.
7 A. Oh, I don’t remember actually what happened to
S it when I owned it. I don’t remember exactly.
9 When was that? A long time ago, wasn’t it?
10 Q. Why don’t you tell me what you recall about

11 the property on Broad Beach.
12 It was once owned by you?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Can you tell me how you acquired it, what
15 happened to the property?
16 A. I think it went to the estate planning, and
17 then after that, it was sold.
18 Q. So when you say it went to the estate
19 planning --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- what did it go into?
23 Q. Did it go into a trust?
25 Q. Did it go into a corporation?
63
2 Q. Did it go into a partnership?
4 Q. Did you sign the papers that transferred it
S into whatever it went into?
7 Q. Who would have copies of the documents that
8 dealt with the transfer of the Broad Beach property?
9 A. I imagine it would be public record wouldn’t
10 it.
11 Q. I don’t know. I’m asking you.
12 Who would have your copies of the documents?
13 A. I don’t know that I have copies.
14 Q. Okay. Does anybody that you work with have
15 control of those documents relating to the Broad Beach
16 property?
17 A. Which documents?
18 Q. The property documents that transferred the
19 property from your name into the estate planning vehicle?
21 What do you mean? People I work with?
22 Q. Lawyers, accountants, bookkeepers, clerks.
23 A. I am not sure. I don’t think so.
24 Q. Do you have an accountant?
25 A. Yes.
64
1 Q. What is the accountants name?
2 A. Jim Walters.
3 Q. And the firm that Jim Walters is with?
4 A. Kellogg and Anderson.
5 Q. And they’re in Beverly Hills?
6 A. No, they’re in the Valley.

7 Q. Have you prepared income tax returns for
8 calendar year 2000?
10 Have I personally? I don’t remember.
11 Q. Were income tax returns filed for you or by
12 you for calendar year, federal and/or state income tax
13 returns?
14 MR. HARRIS: I’m going to object on the grounds that
15 income tax return information is absolutely privileged, and
16 you know the motion for protective order was granted to the
17 extent that no tax returns or related documentation or
18 information shall be produced.
19 MR. STEIN: I’m not asking for his tax returns. I’m
20 asking were they filed.
21 THE WITNESS: It says related information.
22 MR. STEIN: I’m just asking whether he filed it.
23 MR. HARRIS: I think that’s related information.
24 MR. STEIN: So are you going to instruct him?
25 MR. HARRIS: He already said he didn’t know.
65
1 MR. STEIN: He didn’t get to that conclusion, but
2 I’m going to ask.
3 THE WITNESS: No, I did say that. I said it twice.
4 MR. STEIN:
5 Q. So you don’t recall whether you tiled an
6 income tax return for calendar year 2000?
7 A. I said I don’t know.
8 Q. Did you file a federal or state income tax
9 return for calendar year 1999?
11 Q. Did you file a federal or state income tax
12 return for calendar year 1998?
13 A. I’m sure I did.
14 Q. Would that have been prepared by Mr. Walters?
15 A. I don’t know if he would have been the one Co
16 prepare it.
17 Q. Or his firm?
18 A. I’m not sure if it was, you know, prepared by
19 him or his firm. In part, I’m sure it was.
20 Q. How long has Mr. Walters been your accountant?
22 Q. More than a year?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. More than five years?
25 A. Yes.
66

2 A. I don’t think so. I’m not sure.
3 Q. In the last ten years, Mr. Gaggero, have you
4 personally taken any bank loans out for real property?
S A. I think you asked me about loans in the
6 beginning of your inquiry.
7 I don’t know. I’m sure I have. In the last ten
8 years, yeah1 I’m sure I have.
9 Q. There is a lawsuit that is presently pending
10 in which you are a party. It is Gaggero versus First
11 Federal Bank.
12 I believe you are familiar with that case?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And part of that case, as I understand it --
15 you can correct me if I’m wrong -- had to do with a
16 foreclosure of a bank loan; is that correct?
17 A. What’s the name of the case again?
18 Gaggero versus First Federal Bank?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so there was a bank loan that you took out
21 from First Federal Bank?
22 Yes? No?
23 A. Yes, there was.
24 Q. Did you prepare an application for that bank
25 loan?
67
2 Q. Do you remember whether you provided First
3 Federal Bank copies of any or all of your federal income
4 tax returns?
S A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. Is it possible that you did?
7 A. It’s possible that I did.
8 That was back in 1990, though, I think, wasn’t it?
9 I’m not certain.
10 Q. Okay. Let’s go back to the real property on
11 Broad Beach. And that property was transferred by you into
12 your estate planning documents; is that correct?
13 A. Well, I’m not exactly sure if that’s the
14 correct statement, but, yes, I believe the property was put
15 into an estate planning -- into -- was included in the
16 estate planning.
17 Q. Estate planning vehicle, let’s call it?
18 A. Okay. Vehicle.
19 Q. You’re not certain whether there was a will or
20 a trust?
21 A. Oh, I don’t think it was a will or a trust.
22 Q. It was something else?
23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But you’re not sure what it was?
68
1 Q. And you have no idea where any of the
2 documents are that relate to that transfer?
3 A. Well, Mr. Praske may have the documents
4 pertaining to that transfer.
5 Q. Anyone else?
6 A. Again, I don’t think so.
7 Q. After the property on Broad Beach was
8 transferred into the estate planning vehicle -- and you
9 understand that I mean whatever entity, thing, it was,
10 we’re just going to refer to it an as an “estate planning
11 vehicle” --
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. -- whatever it was, what happened to the
14 property after that?
15 A. It was sold.
16 Q. And the estate planning vehicle was the seller
17 of the property?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And do you recall when the sale took place?
20 A. Not exactly, no.
21 Q. Was it within the last ten years?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was it part of your divorce process from your
24 wife that caused the property to be sold?
25 A. No, I don’t think so.
69
I Q. Did your ex-wife have any interest in the
2 property at the time that it was sold?
4 Q. Did your ex-wife receive any of the proceeds
5 of the sale at the time it was sold?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall now that we’ve narrowed the
8 field down a little bit, how much the sale of that property
9 generated?
10 A. No. And to the extent I don’t own any portion
11 of that property, it really isn’t my business.
12 Q. Well, it was owned by you and then put into an
13 estate planning vehicle by you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And then the estate planning vehicle
16 sold it?
17 A. Yeah, it was more than just estate planning.
18 1 don’t know whether “estate planning” is a correct word.

19 Q. What would you call it?
21 It was transferred to eliminate debt so that I
22 didn’t have the debt on me any longer, and it was for
23 estate planning and tax planning, both. It was for a
24 multitude of reasons.
25 So I can’t say that it’s only estate planning. I
70
1 think you’d have to look at the legal ramifications of
2 that, so --
3 Q. I intend to, but I just thought I’d get your
4 knowledge.
S You mentioned that -- you mentioned the word “debt”
S as it related to the property in Broad Beach.
7 And what debt was on the property on Broad Beach, to
8 your recollection?
10 Q. Was there a loan on the property?
11 A. I don’t remember specifically. There was debt
12 on it. I don’t remember if it was a loan, what --
13 Q. Were there tax liens on the property?
15 Q. Were there judgment liens on the property?
17 Q. When the property was sold, did the debt that
18 existed on the property -- excuse me. Strike that.
19 When the property was sold, when the debt that you
20 mentioned -- whatever it was -- was the debt satisfied when
21 the property was sold?
22 A. I’m not sure I know what you’re talking about,
23 and I’m not sure that I know the answer to that question.
24 Q. Let’s narrow it down.
25 The vehicle in which you transferred the property
71
1 subsequently sold the property?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The vehicle was created - -
4 A. It was a limited - - what - - limited
5 partnership is what it went into. It went into a limited
S partnership.
7 Q. Can you recall the name of the limited
8 partnership?
9 A. Malibu Broad Beach L.P.
10 Q. Was there a general partner of Malibu Broad
11 Beach L.P.?
12 A. I’m sure there was. Doesn’t there have to be
13 one? I don’t know.
14 Q. Do you recall the name of the general partner

15 of Malibu Broad Beach L.P.?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you the general partner of Malibu Broad
18 Beach in the limited partnership?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you a limited partner of Malibu Broad
21 Beach, the limited partnership?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So once the property was transferred by you to
24 Malibu Broad Beach partnership, you retained personally no
25 ownership interest in it?
72
2 Q. Did, you live there after it was transferred to
3 the Malibu Broad Beach limited partnership?
4 A. No. I stayed there sometime later, but not
5 when it. was transferred.
6 Q. Did you stay there before it was transferred?
7 A. I don’t know. I don’t -- no.
8 Q. What sort of buildings were on that property?
9 A. It was a house, a rental house.
10 Q. So when you owned it, you rented the house
11 Out?
12 A. I’m trying to remember. I can’t be sure about
13 that. It’s so long ago.
14 Q. Did it remain a rental house after it was
15 transferred to Malibu Broad Beach L.P.?
16 A. I think you’d have to talk to Malibu Broad
17 Beach L.P. about anything having to do with their business
18 because I don’t own any aspect of it.
19 Q. Who would I talk to?
21 Q. Would Mr. Praske know?
22 A. Perhaps.
23 Q. But you do know that Malibu Broad Beach L.P.
24 sold. that property?
25 A. Yes.
73
1 + Q. And when the property was sold, was there
2 still debt attached to the property?
3 A. I think that Malibu Broad Beach L.P. is an
4 entity that I have no ownership interest, and so any
5 questions that you have for Malibu Broad Beach L.P. I think
6 you’ll have to take up with that entity and with their
7 attorneys because I think that they’re entitled to privacy,
8 and I don’t want to be held responsible or liable for
9 disclosing things that might otherwise be private to them.
10 MR. HARRIS: Based on the fact that information is
11 being sought about a -- financial information relating to

12 third parties and not the debtor’s assets, I’m objecting on
13 the grounds that there’s a constitutional right to privacy
14 that has to be asserted on behalf of those third parties
15 who aren’t present here and instructing the witness not to
16 answer.
17 MR. STEIN: And you’re instructing the witness not
18 to identify those third parties, as well?
19 THE WITNESS: No, I told you I couldn’t identify
20 them.
21 You said who should I speak to at MBLP.
22 And I said I don’t know who you would speak to.
23 And you said “Would Mr. Praske know?”
24 And I said possibly.
25 MR. STEIN:
74
1 Q. MBLP, is that what you refer to it as?
2 A. Just paraphrased it for you.
3 Q. It’s a not a common name?
4 A. No. It was difficult for me to say the long
5 version, so I just paraphrased it for you.
6 Q. Very well.
7 Let me see if I can give you what I understood you
8 to say. That you owned this property in Broad Beach. And
9 at the time you owned it, there were certain obligations
10 that were attached to the property. And those obligations
11 may have been a bank loan, they may have been one or more
12 tax liens, they may have been a judgment lien because you
13 used the word “debt” earlier. And I’m trying to describe
14 what possible debt there could be.
15 Do you know whether that debt, which was your debt
16 I’m talking about, still exists?
17 A. You know, you just mischaracterized my
18 testimony.
19 Q. I wasn’t trying to mischaracterize.
20 A. So I really can’t -- well, you don’t need to
21 clarify what I say because what I say is being recorded so.
22 MR. HARRIS: I’m going to object for the purpose of
23 the record, that the question mischaracterizes the evidence
24 and misstates the evidence and also assumes facts not in
25 evidence.
75
1 But you can answer it if you understand it, or if
2 you need it to be rephrased, you know, it could be
3 rephrased.
4 THE WITNESS: I’d prefer that your question be
5 rephrased because I don’t necessarily concur with the
S manner in which you phrased that last question.
7 MR. STEIN:

8 Q. Do you understand the last question?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. You used the word “debt” before in
11 connection with the property on Broad Beach in Malibu; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did you mean by the word “debt”?
15 A. Loans, I think.
16 But I’m not sure if it was a loan because we went
17 from talking about First Federal to this. And I’m not sure
18 if there was an actual bank loan. That’s what I was
19 thinking in my mind when I said “debt.”
20 So my answer earlier on was, I wasn’t sure if it was
21 a bank loan on it or if -- I just don’t remember.
22 Q. Okay. That’s fair enough.
23 Do you know whether that debt, whatever it was,
24 still exists?
25 A. I don’t understand your question.
76
I Q. Well, you said there was some debt on the
2 property. You were uncertain whether it was a bank loan or
3 something else.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. But there was, in fact, some kind of debt
6 related to that property?
7 A. I think it was a loan, but I’m not positive.
8 Q. Do you know whether that debt --
9 A. I think there was a loan. I don’t know
10 whether it was a bank loan or private loan.
11 And when the property was transferred to Malibu
12 Broad Beach L.P. the debt went with the transfer.
13 Q. Right.
14 Do you know whether that debt still exists today?
15 A. I don’t, no.
16 Q. How much did you receive?
17 A. You mean the debt that I’m not sure existed?
18 Q. No. No. I’m asking you another question.
19 A. I just want to clarify.
20 First of all, I said I’m unsure. So I’m not sure
21 what your question really is.
22 MR. HARRIS: You don’t know if it exists today or if
23 it ever existed?
24 THE WITNESS: I don’t know what debt we’re talking
25 about because there might have been a loan or not a loan.
77
I It’s a long time ago to remember.
2 MR. STEIN:
3 Q. That’s fair enough.
4 When you transferred the property to Malibu Broad
5 Beach L.P., did you receive any money in consideration for

6 transferring the property?
8 Q. Were any of your personal debts forgiven as a
9 result of that transfer?
10 A. I think the loans or debt that was on the
11 property -- the loans, if there was -- let’s just call
12 it -- let’s assume there was a loan on it because I think
13 there was, but I don’t know, again, if it was private or
14 institutional. And that loan on the property was
15 transferred to Malibu Broad Beach L.P., so it was no longer
16 my loan.
17 Q. You were no longer liable for that loan?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. But you received no cash?
20 A. I don’t remember exactly.
21 Q. Did you receive any other property in
22 exchange?
24 Q. Did you receive anything tangible, personal
25 property, books, furniture, cars when that property was
78
1 transferred by you to Malibu Broad Beach limited
2 partnership?
3 A. I donrt remember specifically. I don’t think
4 so.
S Q. Do you recall an entity entitled “Family
6 Limited Partnership”?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Are you in -- do you own any property in Ojai,
9 California?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Does any business that you are associated with
12 in any fashion own property in Ojai, California?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you have a business venture with
15 Arnold Schwarzenegger related to property in Ojai,
16 California.
17 Do you know Arnold Schwarzenegyer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Have you been in any business ventures with
20 Arnold Schwarzenegger?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Ever?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So there’s no partnership with
25 Arnold Schwarzenegger?
79

1 A. Is that a business venture?
2 Q. I’m asking you another question.
3 A. You’re asking me redundant questions.
4 Q. Well, I’m entitled.
5 A. To a certain extent.
6 Q. Is there a partnership with
7 Mr. Schwarzenegger?
8 A. No.
9 Q. There was a lawsuit entitled Zitnick,
10 Z-I-T-N-I-C-K, Family Trust versus Blanchard Gaggero that
11 was Los Angeles Superior Court case number BC 107263.
12 Do you remember that lawsuit?
13 A. Vaguely.
14 Q. What do you vaguely remember?
15 A. That it existed.
16 Q. That you were sued by the Zitnick Family
17 Trust?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And they obtained a judgment against you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was that judgment ever satisfied, paid off?
22 A. I don’t remember which judgment it was. There
23 were several. I think there were several lawsuits with the
24 Zitnicks. To tell you the truth, I don’t know.
25 Q. Do you presently owe the Zitnicks any money?
80
1 A. I don’t think so, but I don’t know.
2 Q. Do you have any claims against the Zitnicks at
3 this time?
4 A. I don’t know. That’s a legal question.
S Q. Are you pursuing a lawsuit against the
6 Zitnicks at this time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Who is Leonora Blanchard?
10 Q. Have you ever owned all or part of an airplane
11 that is kept at the Santa Monica Airport?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did any business that you were ever a party to
14 own all or part of an airplane located at the Santa Monica
15 Airport?
17 Q. Is there any document that exists that might
18 refresh your recollection on that subject?
20 Q. Did you ever own a boat or a water vessel that
21 was located in Marina del Rey?
22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you own a boat that was located in
24 Marina del Rey?
25 A. Long time ago. I don’t remember.
81
1 Q. More than five years ago?
2 A. I think so.
3 Q. More than ten years ago?
4 A. I’m not sure when.
S Q. What type of boat was it?
6 A. It was a fishing boat.
7 Q. And how large was it?
8 A. Thirty-two feet.
9 Q. And what became of that boat?
10 A. It’s in Ventura.
11 Q. Do you own it at the present time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you sell it?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you give it away?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Then how is it that you no longer own it?
18 A. Because it was owned -- I only owned a part of
19 it originally.
20 Q. Do you own any part of it at the present time?
22 Q. Who else owns a part of it?
23 A. I don’t remember the name of the person.
24 Q. What’s the name of the boat?
25 A. The Uniflight.
82
1 Q. That’s the manufacturer of the boat,
2 Uniflight.
3 Do you remember the name of boat at the time you
4 owned it?
5 A. It was called “The Great Escape.”
S Q. Do you know whether it is still called
7 “The Great Escape”?
8 A. I think it is.
9 Q. And how is it that you know that it’s situated
10 in Ventura?
11 A. I just know that’s where it is.
12 Q. And what facts lead you to know that it’s
13 situated in Ventura?
14 Have you seen it?
15 A. Not recently.
16 Q. When was the last time you saw it?

18 Q. When was the last time you were on it?
19 A. A long time ago. Three or five years ago.
20 Somewhere between -- maybe longer, I don’t know.
21 Q. Well, you seem very certain that it’s still in
22 Ventura.
23 Are you certain that it’s still in Ventura?
24 A. I think it is.
25 Q. Who is Gary Mueser?
83
1 I’m sure about the spelling of that, M-U-E-S-E-R.
3 Q. Did you ever -- do you ever recall driving a
4 vehicle that’s commonly referred to as a humvee,
5 H-U-M-V-E-E?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Who is Judy Ross?
9 Q. You don’t know Judy Ross?
10 A. No.
11 Should I?
12 Q. I’m asking the questions here.
13 Do you have a personal assistant at this time?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you have a secretary that works for you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC. Does
18 at that name mean anything to you?
19 A. You have to be more specific with your
20 question.
21 Does it mean anything to me in a romantic way?
22 What -- let the record reflect we’re laughing.
23 I just need a specific question.
24 Q. I’ve asked you about the names of several
25 business entities, and I’ve started my series of questions
84
1 with whether that means anything to you. And in almost
2 every instance you’ve said “yes” or “no.”
3 MR. HARRIS: I don’t recall that specific form of
4 questioning, but the record will reflect however you asked
5 the questions.
6 MR. STEIN:
7 Q. So now there is an entity called Sulphur
8 Mountain Land & Livestock LLC.
9 Have you ever heard of that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is that -- aside from a limited liability
12 company, what is Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC?
13 A. I don’t understand the question.
14 Q. Well, what do you know about Sulphur Mountain

15 Land & Livestock LLC?
16 A. That it’s a limited liability company.
17 Q. What else do you know about it?
18 A. I know if you want to ask things about Sulphur
19 Mountain Land & Livestock, you should probably ask Sulphur
20 Mountain Land & and Livestock.
21 I don’t want to get into trouble divulging
22 information that may be construed as their private
23 information.
24 + Q. I’d like to know what you know about it.
25 A. And I’m telling you I’m not go going to tell
85
1 you what knowledge I have of a third party or entity
2 without their attorney and them being present to ask for a
3 protection of that information being disseminated.
4 MR. HARRIS: To the extent the witness has an
5 ownership interest in the company, he can answer that
6 question.
7 But if he doesn’t have an ownership interest in the
8 company, then I’m instructing him not to answer the
9 question on the grounds that the information sought invades
10 privacy interests of third parties who are not present here
11 at the deposition. And based upon that, he’d be instructed
12 not to answer.
13 THE WITNESS: And I do not have an ownership
14 interest.
15 MR. STEIN:
16 Q. Did you ever have an ownership interest in
17 Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock company?
19 Q. What could you look at or review that might or
20 might not change your answer in that regard?
22 Q. How is it that you have heard of Sulphur
23 Mountain Land & Livestock LLC?
24 A. I have heard of it.
25 Q. How?
86
1 A. I don’t know that. That might be privileged.
2 I’m not sure.
3 Q. Did you hear about it on television?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you hear about it on the radio?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you read about it the newspaper?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did somebody in a bar tell you about it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did a friend of yours tell you about it?
12 A. I don’t understand the question.

13 Q. What part of the question don’t you
14 understand?
15 A. Well, if you’re talking about discussions with
16 friends about the entity, yes, I’ve had discussions with
17 friends about the entity. And those discussions may be
18 privileged, as I have no ownership interest in it.
19 Q. Who does own it?
21 And I don’t know that that information is something
22 that’s necessarily your affair. It may be, but I don’t
23 think because I don’t own it --
24 Q. Who does own it?
25 A. I’m not sure that I know.
87
HUTCIIINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 I’ve already answered that question, so I’m not
2 going - -
3 MR. STEIN: Are you going to instruct him?
4 MR. HARRIS: Is your answer you’re not sure that you
5 know?
6 THE WITNESS: My answer is that I’m not absolutely
7 certain, as I sit here today. And if I was certain, I
8 wouldn’t tell you because it’s disclosing private
9 information from a third party.
10 MR. HARRIS: He says he doesn’t know the answer to
11 the question.
12 THE WITNESS: I’m not exactly sure.
13 MR. HARRIS: I’m not going to instruct him if he
14 doesn’t even know the answer to the question.
15 MR. STEIN:
16 Q. Well who do you thinks owns it?
17 MR. HARRIS: Calls for speculation.
18 MR. STEIN: Are you going to instruct him not to
19 answer?
20 THE WITNESS: I’m not going to speculate.
21 MR. STEIN:
22 Q. I’m not asking you to speculate.
23 Who do you think owns it?
24 A. I’m not going to speculate since it’s not
25 mine.
88
1 It’s speculation -- I’m sorry.
2 What did you say?
3 Q. Go ahead. Finish. I’m sorry to interrupt
4 you.
5 A. I’m through.
6 MR. HARRIS: If he doesn’t own it and he doesn’t
7 know who owns it, any testimony about who he thinks owns
8 it -- you know, it can’t possibly to lead to discovery of
9 information about his assets.
10 MR. STEIN: I wonder.
11 Q. You’re not sure whether you ever owned any of

12 Sulfur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC; is that correct?
13 A. Was that my testimony?
14 Q. I’m asking you a question.
15 A. Was that a question? I thought it was a
16 statement.
17 Q. No, it was a question.
18 A. I’m sorry. It didn’t sound like a question.
19 I’m not sure if I did or not.
20 Q. And if you did, when might you have had any
21 ownership in Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC?
23 Q. Have you ever done any work for Sulphur
89
1 Q. Were you ever paid anything by Sulphur
4 Q. You don’t know? You don’t remember?
6 Q. What does that mean, exactly?
7 A. Get a dictionary, I suppose.
8 Q. What does that mean to you?
10 Q. It means it’s possible that you were paid
11 something by Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock?
12 MR. HARRIS: Anything is possible.
13 MR. STEIN: He’s not sure.
14 I’m trying to pin it down a little bit. I’m
15 entitled to that.
16 THE WITNESS: I’m just not sure.
17 MR. STEIN:
18 Q. And who would have information that would
19 allow me to find out whether you were ever paid anything by
20 Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC.
21 MR. HARRIS: Calls for speculation. You can answer
22 it you know.
23 THE WITNESS: I don’t know.
24 MR. STEIN:
25 Q. Would Mr. Walters have information in that
90
HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC — GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 regard?
3 Q. Would Mr. Praske have information in that
4 regard?
6 Q. Would Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock have

7 information in that regard?
9 + Q. Do you know whether Sulphur Mountain Land &
10 Livestock LLC owns any real property?
11 A. I’m not going to answer any questions about
12 Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock company because I don’t
13 know who owns it.
14 + Q. Do you know whether it owns any real property
15 or not?
16 A. If I did know, I wouldn’t give you that
17 information without them and their attorneys present to
18 defend their right to privacy.
19 MR. HARRIS: Okay. To the extent he knows any
20 information about that company’s ownership of real property
21 and since he has no ownership interest in that company, I’m
22 instructing him not to answer that question because it
23 invades the privacy interests of third parties who aren’t
24 here at this deposition.
25 MR. STEIN:
91
1 Q. Do you presently do any consulting for Sulphur
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what sort of consulting do you do for
5 Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC?
6 A. It depends. I can’t think of anything right
7 now, but it would depend.
8 Q. What would it depend on?
9 A. They’d have to have ask me to do something.
10 + Q. What was the most recent thing that you
11 consulted for Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC?
12 A. I don’t think that that is information that
13 they would want divulged, so I would ask that they be privy
14 to this question and be allowed to answer the question if
15 they would like to.
16 MR. HARRIS: Could you read back the last question.
18 MR. HARRIS: Can you give just a general
19 description?
20 THE WIThESS: They’re an ongoing business, and
21 they wanted me to consult in those business affairs, but
22 their business affairs are private.
23 MR. STEIN:
24 Q. So you’re not going to tell me what sort of
25 work that you did for Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock
92
1 LLC?
2 A. I didn’t say it was work. I said I did
3 consulting.

4 Q. Do you differentiate “consulting” between
5 “work’?
6 A. I’m not sure, but I want to preserve my right
7 in case you try and twist it to be something it’s not.
8 Q. I’m not trying to twist anything.
9 A. I understand. But you’re trying to get
10 information about entities that aren’t me.
11 So if you want to get information about entities
12 that aren’t me, I suggest you go and try to get information
13 from those entities and leave me out of it because I don’t
14 want to be in any trouble over it.
15 Q. Does Sulphur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC owe
16 you any money?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Does sulfur Mountain Land & Livestock LLC owe
19 any business entity that you are -- that you control any
20 money?
21 A. No, not that I know of.
22 Q. Do you control any business entity, be it a
23 partnership, corporation or otherwise?
24 MR. HARRIS: Just object on the grounds it’s vague
25 and ambiguous. Also calls for legal conclusion and calls
93
HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC -. GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 for speculation.
2 But you can answer if you understand.
3 THE WITNESS: First of all, I don’t understand what
4 you mean by “control.”
5 MR. STEIN:
6 Q. What do you think the word “control” means?
7 A. I need you to define that for me. It’s not my
8 responsibility to break your questions down. I need you to
9 be more specific on what it is you’re asking me so I can
10 try to give you my best answer.
11 Q. You don’t understand my question?
12 A. No. I think it’s vague.
13 Q. Are you the president of any corporation?
14 A. I think we’ve already discussed that we know
15 that I’m the president, I think, of Avalon, and I’m not
16 sure about Clipper.
17 Q. Are you president of any other corporation?
19 Q. Are you the general partner of any
20 partnership, be it a limited partnership or general
21 partnership?
23 Q. Are you a member of any limited liability
24 corporation besides Genova?
25 MR. HARRIS: Genova.
94

1 MR. STEIN:
2 Q. Genova Sunset, I think it was called.
3 A. I don’t think so, but I’m not sure.
4 Q. Are you a member of any limited liability
5 partnership?
7 Q. Have you set up -- have you caused to be
S formed, by that I mean hiring someone or doing it yourself,
9 any corporation in the last five years?
11 Q. On an average, how much money do you earn each
12 month for the last 12 months?
13 A. $3,000.
14 Q. And what is the source of that money?
15 A. My consulting work.
16 Q. And would all of the money -- from the source
17 of that money, would all of that money be deposited in the
18 bank account for which you have provided me a document?
19 A. Not necessarily.
20 Q. Where else would the money go that you receive
21 for your consulting work?
22 A. I would spend it to live.
23 Q. Well, is it all paid to you in the form of
24 cash or in the form of check?
25 A. I think you asked me that question before.
95
1 It varies.
2 Q. It varies.
3 So some people pay you in cash?
4 A. No, I don’t know. Maybe they do. I’d have to
5 think about it.
6 What’s the time?
7 Q. Last 12 months.
9 I can’t remember if somebody has paid me cash in the
10 last 12 months. I don’t think so.
11 Q. So when you get a check, do you always deposit
12 the check in the Frontier Bank -- Jackson -- I’m sorry.
13 lost the name of the entity.
14 THE WITNESS: Go ahead and look that up.
15 MR. STEIN: Why don’t we go of f the record and take
16 a break.
18 MR. STEIN: Can you read back the last question
19 before we took a break.
21 MR. STEIN:
22 Q. When you get a check in the last 12 months,
23 let’s limit to it that time frame, do you always deposit
24 the check in the Jackson Federal Bank?
25 A. No.

96
1 Q. Do you deposit the check in any other banking
2 or savings and loan institution?
3 A. No, I don’t.
4 Q. Do you cash the checks?
5 A. Sometimes.
6 Q. Sometimes you deposit the checks, and
7 sometimes you cash the checks?
9 Q. Do you do anything else with the checks?
10 A. Like what?
11 Q. Endorse them over to a third party?
12 A. I don’t know if I do or not. I don’t know if
13 I have in the last 12 months done that. It’s not a normal
14 practice. I just don’t know if I have or not.
15 Q. If you get paid for consulting services,
16 you’ll either put the money in Jackson Federal Bank, or
17 you’ll cash the check?
18 A. Those are two options.
19 Q. Are there any others?
21 Q. Who would know?
23 Q. Is there anyone that handles your money for
24 you besides you?
25 A. No. I handle my money.
97
HtJTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 Q. Who pays that VISA Bill?
2 A. Pacific Coast Management pays it.
3 Q. Pacific Coast Management pays your personal
4 expenses incurred on that VISA bill?
5 A. Sometimes. Then they’ll deduct it from the
6 $3,000, or they won’t, and I’ll pay them separately.
7 Q. So you receive $3,000 a month from Pacific
8 Coast Management?
9 A. They’ll deduct it from $3,000.
10 Q. But your regular income on a monthly basis
11 within the last 12 months from Pacific Coast Management is
12 $3,000 a month?
13 A. I’m not sure if it’s every month or not.
14 How many months did you say?
15 Q. Twelve?
16 A, I’m not sure about that.
17 Q. How about the last six?
18 A. I’m not positive.
19 Q. How about since the beginning of the year?

21 1 think it’s been that.
22 Q. How much did you receive from them in the
23 month of May of 2001?
24 A. When? 2001?
25 Q. Yes, this year.
101
1 A. I think $3,000.
2 Q. Have you received any money from them for the
3 month of June 2001?
5 Q. Do they make direct deposits into Jackson
6 Federal Bank on your behalf?
7 A. Sometimes.
8 Q. They give you checks sometimes?
9 A. They give me checks sometimes.
10 Q. Do they give you cash sometimes?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But the income that you receive, then, is
13 reasonably regular on a monthly basis over the course of
14 the last 12 months from Pacific Management?
15 A. That’s a vague question.
16 I don’t know what your interpretation of “reasonably
17 regular” means.
18 Q. You’ve said you receive approximately $3,000 a
19 month from Pacific Management.
21 Q. And that’s been going on for about the last 12
22 months?
23 A. I don’t know that to be the case.
24 Q. That’s been going on for longer than 12
25 months?
102
2 Q. Do you have a check register for your bank
3 account at Jackson Federal Bank?
4 A. You mean when I enter the checks I wrote, yes.
S Q. Does anyone else enter information on that
6 check register on your behalf?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you have a computer program in which you
9 keep track of checks that you have written on Jackson
10 Federal Bank?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Are you a signatory of any other bank account?
13 For example, can you sign checks on any other bank

14 account besides the Jackson Federal Bank account?
15 A. I think I can sign on Avalon, on Avalon’s
16 checking account.
17 Q. Does Avalon have a checking account?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is there any money in it?
20 A. Well, since I’m not the owner of Avalon, I
21 think that’s private information, and that’s something that
22 Avalon and you can take up.
23 Q. I’m not clear exactly, and I don’t recall.
24 I’ve asked a lot of questions.
25 Do you presently have any ownership interest in
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1-IUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 800.697.3210
1 Avalon whatsoever?
2 A. You have asked that question, and I told you
3 I’m not a shareholder of that anymore.
4 Q. Do you own any other interest in Avalon aside
5 from the interest of a shareholder?
6 A. I don’t understand what that would be.
7 Q. Have you lent any money to Avalon for which
8 they are obligated to pay you back?
10 Q. Do you hold any security interests in any of
11 Avalon’s assets?
12 A. I don’t know. I don’t really know what that
13 means, really.
14 I don’t know that Avalon has any assets, first of
15 all, and so the question is puzzling to me.
16 Q. In March of 1998, March 19th of that year,
17 exactly, you signed a grant deed transferring your interest
18 to Gingerbread Court L.P. a certain parcel of property.
19 I’m going to show you a document that’s entitled
20 Grant Deed. I’ll ask the court reporter to make it part of
21 the record.
22 It is -- in the upper right-hand corner, it has a
23 number 98-461443. It bears a signature above a line with
24 the typed name “Stephen M. Gaggero.”
25 MR. HARRIS: Is that going to be marked as a --
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HtJTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL SERVICES - 80O.97.321Q
1 MR. STEIN: As the next exhibit in order.
2 I don’t have an additional copy, I’m afraid.
3 MR. HARRIS: Okay. What exhibit will that be?
4 THE REPORTER: 2.
5 MR. STEIN:
6 Q. Mr. Gaggero, this is Exhibit 2. It’s a grant
7 deed.
8 Do you recall seeing that document before today?
9 A. Yes.

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