Transcript Bizo's interview

1. Angie Kapelianis: “Whoor whathas shapedyou?”
George Bizos: “Too many things. Iwas bornin a village (Vasilitsi). Myprimaryschoolingwasthere. I
had a wonderful teacher–a refugee fromAsiaMinor(Anatolia,Turkey)……….whohadaverybroad
horizonof the world. Andthe cloudsof……….war were……….gatheringinthe middle-to-late thirties. And
we were afraidof beingoccupiedbythe Italianfascistgovernmentandthe GermanNazi government.
My father(Antoni Bizos)hadbeenelectedmayor……….of the villagein1934, buttwo yearslater,a
dictatortook overinGreece and he was strippedof hisoffice. Irecitedpoetryandfreedomsongsabout
Greekindependence. Asyoumayknow,for380 years,Greece wasoccupiedbythe OttomanEmpire.
Andall these thingsshapedmylife……….The Nazi occupationof Greece in1941 was a shockfor my
fatherand me,a thirteenyearold atschool. The schoolsclosed. We witnessedthe Stuka(German
“dive bomber”) aeroplaneswiththeirhorriblenoiseandthe blackcross onthe……….undercarriage of
the wings. We were afraid. We livedunderNazi occupationforaboutsix weeksuntil Allied soldiers
came to ourplace. My father,at considerablerisktohimself,probablycommittedone of the acts
of……….defiance of the Nazi occupationbytaking……….New Zealandsoldiersinasmall boat……….togo to
Crete,withoutknowingthatCrete wasbusyfallingtothe Germanswiththeirparatroopers. Happily,we
were pickedupby……….the HMS Kimberleyof (LordLouis) Mountbatten’sflotilla,whichwasgoingto
Crete to try and helpinthe evacuationof the Alliedtroopsandthe governmentof Greece onCrete.
Theytookus to Alexandria(inEgypt). Iwentintoan orphanage. My fatherwasin a refugee camp. The
Italianswere occupyingpartof Egypt. The Middle Eastcommand……….thankstomy father,arrangedfor
a numberof refugees,inparticularmyfatherand me,to be put on the secondbiggestshipinthe world
at the time,the Ile de France,andwe were broughtto Durban. I was disappointedtosee how strong,
blackmenwere pullingrickshaws –somethingthatmade averybad impressiononme because whereI
was born,thingswere……….transportedbydraughtanimals,notbyhumanbeings………..Andthen
I……….didn’tgoto school for two-and-a-half years………..CeciliaFeinsteinsaw me behindthe counter(of
a café),workingatthe age of 15-plus,andshe recognisedme froma photographof my fatherandme
publishedinThe SundayTimes. Andshe askedwhetherIwasthe boythat she saw inthe photograph. I
said:‘Yes’,andthenshe took itup withthe people thatIwas workingforand saidthiswas
unacceptable. She wasa teacher;she wouldcome onMondaymorning(cries,laughs) andtake me to
herschool (crying)……….andI didmy StandardSix overagain andmy StandardSeven……….under
her……….And……….she arrangedforme togo to Athlone Highandhad arrangedwithRita
Greenberg……….the seniorEnglishmistressof thatschool,tolookafterme……….”
Angie Kapelianis: “Whydidyourmom (AnastasiaBizos) staybehind(inGreece)? Whydidn’tshe come
withyouand yourdad?”
George Bizos: "Well……….itwasa verydangeroustrip……….Mygrandfather,mymother……….my
grandmotherdidn’twantme togo, and I threatenedthatIwas goingto swimbehindthe boat(laughs)if
theydidn’ttake me along……….We stayedhere ona refugee permit………..andwe gotpermanent
residence in1948. Andthen the Nationalistscame intopower………whilstIwasa first-yearstudentat
Wits. And thiswasa greatinsulttothe studentbody………..Anditwasthere thatyoucan possiblysayI
was ‘radicalised’……….forlackof a betterword.”

2. Angie Kapelianis: “Why,whenyouwere atWits,didyou decide tostudylaw?”
George Bizos: “……….Because at school I was particularlyinterestedinhistory. Iwasparticularly
interestedbywhatwashappening……….atthe UnitedNations,about……….theUniversalDeclarationof
Human Rights,the AtlanticCharter……….Mygenerationwastooyoungtofightbutold enoughto
understandwhythatwar……….wasbeingfought(criesagain)……….But……….myfatherwantedme to
become a doctor……….(laughs) Ididn’tgetinbecause preference wasgivento ex-servicemen……….and
not women(laughs)……….So,muchtomyfather’sdisappointment,Ididn’tevenapplyfor
medicine……….and……….ItoldmyfatherIwasn’tinterestedindoingmedicine. Iwantedtodo law,
particularlyinfluencedbyalecturercalledLivingstone. InPolitical TheoryandGovernment,we did
Plato’sRepublicandthe firstbookof Plato’sRepublicisonjustice (laughsslightly) Thiswasagreat
debate – whatis meantbyjustice – and that influencedme……….”
Angie Kapelianis: “You’ve focussedonhumanrights. Isit because of yourexperience inGreece andthe
war……….Nazismandfascism…?”
George Bizos: “……….Whenyou come to the Bar afteryou’ve studied……….youcan’treallysaywhat
you’re goingtospecialise in……….Because of mystudentactivism, assoonasI qualified………thefirst
political case Idid(in1954) was……….fora photographer……….whophotographedameetingin
Sophiatown,Eli Weinberg,whowasbannedfromattendinggatherings. He climbedthe roof of ashack
fromwhich………he took……….picturesand……….IwasaskedtodefendhimbyRuthFirst,whohad sent
himthere to take pictures……….. Itgot publicity. Iwasledby VernonBerrangé,whobecame my
mentor……….Iusedanexpressionwhichhe liked……….‘MrWeinbergwasnotonlyabsent……….fromthe
meeting,……….hewasprominentlyabsentfromit(laughs).’ He said:‘Hey,thisisgoodstuff!’ (laughter)
and he (Weinberg) wasacquitted.”
Angie Kapelianis: “FromwhatI understand,youdidcasesforMandela& Tambo(Attorneys). Doyou
recall the firsttime thatyou met(Nelson) Mandelaorsaw him, spoke to him?”
George Bizos: “……….Eduardo……….Mondlane,the Mozambicanleader,wasastudent(at
Wits)………..There wasa………protestmeetingagainstthe universityauthoritiesfornotstandinguptothe
securitypolice……….andNelsonMandelaspoke. He wasa mostimpressiveman. He was introducedas
one of the leadersof the YouthLeague and thereafter……….hewasmysenior………..inthe law
faculty………..FatimaMeer’shusband(Ismail Meer) wasone of the peoplethatwas
active……….in……….sortof Gandhianactivity……….Thisishow Icame……….tomeethimand we became

3. quite friendly……….Nelsonwas……….asmartdresser. He waswalkingerectanduprightandhe
didn’t……….bowand………..say:‘Asyourworshippleases’inasort of subservientmanner………..Igot
quite a bitof work……….fromMandela&Tambo all overthe country. In mylittle MorrisMinor,went
fromdorp to dorp……….todo cases………forpeople……….forcomparativelypettyoffenses,violationsof
the apartheidlaw……….”
Angie Kapelianis: “Whatwas itabout NelsonMandelathatimpressedyou?”
George Bizos: “He was able tostand……….ona platformand……….really……….create aspellbound
atmosphere because of hisself-confidence,because of the wayinwhichhe wasarticulate……….about
how……….ardentlyhe believedin……….the freedomof all the people of SouthAfrica. Originally,he wasa
nationalist……….But,Ithink,withthe Defiance Campaign(1951-1953) andunderthe influence of Bram
FischerandDr (Yusuf) Dadoo……….whenhe saw thatIndian,colouredandwhite people were prepared
to go to jail……….thisisthe beginningof hisattitude thatSouthAfricabelongstoall of us………..”
Angie Kapelianis: “Whydidyoudecide towrite yourautobiography(OdysseytoFreedom)?..........”
George Bizos: “I actuallystartedmy memoirafew yearsbefore the TRC(Truth and Reconciliation
Commission). Butwhatwashappeninginthe TRC – as you well know havingtakenamajorpart in
reportingit– the murderers,abductors,torturersthathaddeniedeverythingthatwe accusedthemof
duringthe sixties,the seventiesandthe eighties……….allof asudden,forthe benefitof
amnesty……….would……….admitthe verythingthatwe accusedthemof. Andto its shame……….justice
exoneratedthem……….forthe deathof (Steve) Biko,the deathof AhmedTimol……….thedeathsof the
Cradock Four(MatthewGoniwe,FortCalata,Sparrow Mkhontoand SiceloMhlauli)……….andthe
others……….AndIthought:‘Hey……….newspaperreports……….canhardlyputitinpropercontext. What I
thinkI needtodo formy profession,tothe administrationof justice,tothe people of SouthAfrica,isto
write,nota personal memoir,butalmostadocumentaryof whatwas done,whatwassaidthen,what
they’re sayingnowandhowtheycheatedjustice toitsshame. AndthisiswhyI stoppedthe biography
and I concentratedonthat (otherbookcalledNoOne toBlame? In Pursuitof Justice inSouth
Africa)………..Itbecame alittle difficulttogoback to the autobiography. Thenthere were alotof
interruptions………..There wasalotof workin the Legal ResourcesCentre……….andthenItookthe
(Zimbabweanoppositionleader,Morgan) Tsvangirai trial inZimbabwe………RandomHouse andStephen
Johnson,itshead,were verypatient,butIdidgetcallseverythree monthsorso:‘Whenare yougoingto
getdownto it?’……….Aboutayear ago (2006), I sort of said:‘Enoughisenough. I mustget downtoit
and finishit.’……….Manyof myfriends……….whohearme talk,flatterme bytellingme thatI’ma
raconteur– whateverthatmaymean(laughs)……….Theysaid:‘Youmustdoitbecause it’s
important……….Manypeople,particularlythe youngones……….thatIdefendedarisingoutof the
Soweto……….uprising……….said:‘………..MrBizos,we wantyou……….totell the storyforour
children……….’ Butwhatthe bookisabout isreally……….whathashappenedinthe trials………Youknow,
the courtroom isthe last forumof the oppressed………..Whatdoyoudoa man……….ora few of the

4. womenwhosay:‘I didcontravene yourlaws,butyouhad no moral right……….to try me! And they
proceedtospeakabout theirpersonal experience (Hitsthe woodentable withhissilverOlympics
watch),whathappenedtothem,whathappenedtotheirparents,whathappenedtotheir
grandparents,howthe police behavedafterafuneral……….These,Ithink,are trials,which……….bringto
the fore,howpeople suffered,howpeople were……….unjustly……….treated……….The blackpeoplein
SouthAfricahave knownoppressionfromthe cradle tothe grave……….AndIwantedto write partof that
history.”
Angie Kapelianis: “You’ve chosenOdysseytoFreedom……….Whydidyouchose thattitle?”
George Bizos: “……….Havingleft(Greece) inasmall boat,havingbeeninturbulentseas,havingbeen
pickedupby a boat,takinga longtime……….Andthe word‘odyssey’ hasa……….secondarymeaning –
that’sa journey………– and alsoyouwill have noticed,Idedicatedthe book……….’Forthose wholetme
walkwiththem’……….Ihave beenfortunate thatIcrossedthe pathof some greatpeople inSouthAfrica
and withoutthemIwould have justbeenanotherlawyer……….But……….theymade me whatsome
people thinkIam(laughs)………..I’ve beenfortunate inhavingundertakenthisjourney……….atthe
instance of greatpeople –people whomade real contributionstoSouthAfrica’shistory.”
Angie Kapelianis: “Whichwasyourmost difficultorchallengingcase?”
George Bizos: “……….The RivoniaTrial was a verychallengingcase because itwasamatter of life and
death……….NelsonMandela’sheroic………(dock) statementbroughthome tothe international
community……….thatthis(the ANC) wasnota terroristorganisation. Thiswasa struggle forthe
freedomandthe democratichumanrightsof the people of SouthAfrica…………Ithink……….Nelson’s
statementfromthe dockand the most articulate mannerinwhichSisuluspokeaboutthe plightof the
blackpeople andGovanMbeki ina……….more intellectual and……….logical fashion,………persuadedthis
judge (Quartusde Wet) that………these peoplewere somewhatspecial and……….even……….thoughhe
couldnot bringhimself tosee themasequals………nothavinghadanycontact with………blackorAfrican
people,orIndianpeopleforthatmatter,exceptonthe master-and-servantandshopkeeper-and-
customer………level,he realisedthattheywere people of substance. AndasAlanPaton putit at the end
of the trial……….he wasaccusedof comingto court by Yutar in orderto make propagandaagainstthe
governmentandthe white people inthe country………AlanPatonsaid:‘Ididn’tcome forthatpurpose. I
came………because Ilove mycountry……….One dayyouwill have tonegotiate withthe leadersof black
people inordertobringpeace to thiscountry. Put these mentodeathand you’ll have noone that will
trust youto negotiate with.’ Andthat’sexactly……….whathappened.So,thatwasthe most difficult.”
Angie Kapelianis: “Was it alsothe most memorable?”

5. George Bizos: “Yes……….youknow,to have todefendyourfriendona capital charge……….is
additional……….pressure……….But,the Delmastrial (MosiuoaLekota,PopoMolefe,MossChikane,Tom
Manthatha, Gcinumuzi Malindi etal),the (Morgan) Tsvangirai trial……….theywere all trialsinwhichthe
people’s……….if notlives,theirfreedom, wasatstake………..Primarily,the casesthatI have done………had
to do somethingwith………freedom……….tobringoutdiscrimination,persecution……….inequality,
injustice. Ididn’tchoose them………..Inmanyrespects………theychose me………..ArthurChaskalsonsays
that………..there isn’tanyone inthe country……….indeedinthe worldthathe knowsof,whohas done as
manypolitical casesasI have. I don’tknow whetherthatistrue or not. Perhapssomebodycandoa
master’sdegree (laughs) onitone day. But……….I was flatteredthatpeoplechose me whentheyhad
theirback to the wall……….WhenIjoinedthe……….Legal ResourcesCentre in1992, I thoughtthat
political trials……….are over(laughsslightly) andIwouldjust……….carryonmakinglotsof moneyin
commercial cases……….Butthatwasn’tto be because the Legal ResourcesCentre hadtodo……….a
numberof inquests……….likethe (Matthew) Goniwe inquest………The Shell House
(massacre)……….inquest………..But,the (Morgan) Tsvangirai case wasanother. Here IthoughtI would
neverdoanothertreasontrial. We were onholidayinGreece,ontopof a hill,bythe
sea……….and……….we……….got……….athree-page letterfromthe attorneyandthe twoadvocatesthat
had beenbriefedforTsvangirai. Andtheysaid……….theycame tothe conclusionthatI wasthe most
suitedbecause of myexperience todothe case………..Iwasthere withmywife (Arethe “Rita”
Bizos)……….andIshowed herthe letter……….Ithoughtthatshe wouldhave said:……….‘Enoughis
enough’……….but……….shesaid:‘Well,there’satelephone number,isn’tthere? (soundslike he’scrying
again) You betterphone thembackand tell themyou’ll take it. Andtheytoldme thatit wouldlastsix
weeks(laughs). Itlastedalmostayear!..........(RetiredConstitutional CourtJudge)Johann
Kriegler………saysthat……….mydefendingTsvangirai reallyhelpedtogethimacquittedbecause nojudge
couldreallyconvicthimafterall that we broughtout……….Itwas a frame-upandwe exposeditforwhat
it………was.”
Angie Kapelianis: “Didyougetany flakfromthe ANC or SouthAfricangovernmentfortakingonthat
case?”
George Bizos: “On the contrary (laughsslightly)……….theytookavicariouspleasureof……….mypresence
there……….and……….certainlynoone highlyplaced –fromthe presidentdown –eversuggestedthatI
shouldnothave done it……….Cyril Ramaphosacame tome afterthe unbanningof the ANC. I wasa
memberof the ANC……….Constitutional andLegal Committee………..andCyril……….said:‘George……...the
National Executivehasconfirmedyourmembership……….of the Committee.’ Isaid:‘Well,thankyou,
Cyril. Doesthismeanthat I have to geta card?’ Andhe said:‘No,no, no. There are some people who
don’tneeda card.’ AndI said:‘What am I supposedtodo?’………He said:‘George,you’ve gottodo
everything,butI’ll tryandgetyouan exemptionfromtoyi-toying!’” (laughs)
Angie Kapelianis: “Havingwitnessedthe evolutionof the ANC fromthe middle of the lastcentury,hasit
metyour expectationsingovernment?”

6. George Bizos: “……….There is noone,in myopinion,thatcan dobetter……….I’mcritical of some of their
decisions……….Isometimeshave towrite tonewspaperstoremindour people,whocall me a
comrade………..where we come from………..particularlyinrelationtothe judiciaryand……….fundamental
humanrightsand the introductionof terrorismlegislation……….There are manypeopleingovernment
whounfortunatelyare notlivinguptothe standards……….where peopleare hungryforpowerand
hungryfor moneyandtheyare notalways……….ashonest……….asmyfriendsNelsonMandela,Walter
Sisulu,GovanMbeki,DumaNokwe wouldhave expectedthemtobe. But………thatis………government
and………the temptationsof committingactsof corruptionforpersonal gainisthere,particularlyfor
people whowere poor,andtheysee othersdoingit,andwhynotme? Andit’san unfortunate
thing……….aboutwhichI’mnotparticularlypleased. Iamupsetby the povertythatthere is. I’m upset
aboutthe lackof qualityeducationthatthere is……….Iamupsetbythe great chasm betweenthe very
rich andthe verypoor………..Ibelievethatwe are slowlymovingalongthe roadof establishingan
egalitariansociety,inwhichthere isgreaterequality………greaterjustice. Absoluteequalityandabsolute
justice……….(laughsslightly) are notof thisworld……….The onlythingthatwe can do isreallytryour best
to mitigate………whatis……….nothappening. AndIfindcomfortinquotingthe greatdemocrat,Pericles,
inancientAthens – that there isnoshame in admittingpoverty. The real shame isinnot takingpositive
stepsto putan endto it. AndI thinkthat despite the factthata lotof people saythat nothinghas
changed,that’snot correct. You go to the universities,the bankinghalls……….the airways………the jobs
that people doinfactorieswithoutjobreservation……..Countthe numberof people thatwere atschool
before andthe numberof people atschool now. True,that some of it is not goodeducation,butitcan
onlyimprove. AndthisiswhyI’moptimisticaboutourfuture. I’mhopingthatwhatI have said inthe
bookwill……….bringhome tothe youngpeople……….of where we come from.”
Angie Kapelianis: “Lookingback at your life,doyouhave anyregrets?”
George Bizos: “I didn’tdoall the casesas well asI couldhave. I lostsome. It’sinevitableforsomeone
who’shonestwithhimself tosaythatI could have done better. ButI have neverapologisedforanything
that I didinmy professionallife………..”
Angie Kapelianis: “Didyouas a Greekin SouthAfricaexperience racism?”
George Bizos: “The Afrikanernationalistsregardedthemselvesasthe ownersof SouthAfrica;the Anglo-
Saxons……..aswelcomedguests;…….the southernMediterraneans,asJimmyKrugersaid,inrelationto
the Greeks………theywere here onsufferance………..Igotamessage fromJohnVorster,whenhe was
prime minister,thatmyrope wasgettingshort………buthe,onthe otherhand,isthe one whorelented
and actually……..saidthatIcouldhave a passportwhenhe was approachedbyone of the judges……….”

7. Angie Kapelianis: “………He was probablyhopingyouwouldn’tcome back?”
George Bizos: (Laughter) “Ja,well,if he hopedthat,he waswrong………..But……….I have never
complainedof beingill-treatedmainlybecause,youknow,the sortof jibe about………the Greeks. Ihada
lotof jibesduringthe periodof the dictatorshipinGreece. Theysaid:‘Youtalkaboutdemocracyand
wantto teach us aboutdemocracy,lookat yourmothercountry,I mean,they’ve gotdictators.’ And
that washurtful. But all these thingswere minorcomparedtothe indignitythatblackpeople hadto
sufferandI couldn’tcomplainaboutthat. Infact……….the country has beengoodtome……….Both
professionallyandpersonally,I’vegotsupportfromall sectionsof the community –black,white and
differentethnicities. IneverfeltthatI wasdiscriminatedinrelationtothe workthatI was offered. It’s
true that I wasn’ta fashionable……….lawyerforthe mininghousesandbiginsurance companies,but
there’slife withoutthem.”