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Living and Dying 
in Very Old Age 
The limits of choice 
Tony Walter 
Centre for Death & Society 
University of Bath, UK
Living & Dying in late old age: 
Ambivalence 
• One of the great achievements of advanced 
industrial societies is that most of their members 
live to a good age. 
• Dying in late old age: the kind of dying many 
people fear after the long life they hope for 
• My perspective: 
Age 66, not a healthcare professional
Dying in late old age: Question 
• Under 1/3 of old people die of cancer 
• Principles & practice of palliative care are 
based on cancer 
• Can they be rolled out to other kinds of dying?
Dying Trajectories: Cancer vs Other
Cancer & Frailty Contrasted 
HOSPICE PRINCIPLE REQUIRES 2nd / 3rd age 
CANCER 
4th age FRAILTY 
and/or DEMENTIA 
Informed choice Clear prognosis & 
trajectory 
Awareness of dying 
Mental capacity 
Social agency 
√ 
√ 
√ 
√ 
X 
? 
? 
Reduced 
Living & dying at 
home 
Co-resident family 
members 
Capable family 
members 
√ 
√ 
? 
?
INFORMED CHOICE: Who wants it? 
• Baby boomers / 3rd Agers: 
consumerist / neo-liberal / secular 
versus: 
• Non-western, religious patients: 
may prefer family/doctor/God to choose 
• Gradual giving up of agency as 3rd Age morphs into 4th Age 
• Survival vs Post-material values 
• C.Gilleard, P.Higgs. The third age & the baby boomers. International Journal of Aging and Later Life 2007, 2(2): 13-30 
• R.Inglehart et al. Human values & beliefs: a cross-cultural sourcebook. University of Michigan Press, 1998.
INFORMED CHOICE: Is it possible? 
• If mental capacity is reduced, then informed 
choice has to be made much earlier, when in 
good health. 
• But how does a healthy 3rd Ager know what 
it’s like to have dementia or a stroke? 
• Is the 4th Age a black hole? 
• C.Gilleard, P.Higgs. Aging without agency. Aging & Mental Health 14(2), 2010: 121-128.
What do people fear about dying?
What do people fear about dying? 
• Powerless in face of opaque systems 
• Unjoined-up care 
• Under-resourced care 
• Confusing care 
• Uncaring care 
Making choices doesn’t guarantee being in 
control!
CHOICE: Summary 
Patients are now required to speak and state 
preferences/choices that: 
a) reflect a political agenda 
b) cannot be fully informed 
c) may not address their fears 
d) may not be realisable
So what do people want? 
• To know they will be cared for 
• To know they will be cared about
RELATIONALITY 
• Does dying in very old age need a relational 
ethic more than an ethic of individual 
autonomy? 
• Eastern relational ethics 
• Western relational ethics
Relational ethics: Eastern 
Japan: Interaction relies on nonverbal empathic guesswork, 
considering others: omoiyari. 
• Implications for coma care. 
• Loss of autonomy ≠ social death. 
Maori: consult whanau: 
• Takes time 
• Individual may not have final say 
• Family group conferences have influenced western child 
care. Have they influenced palliative care? 
• R.Frey et al. "Advance care planning for Maori, Pacific and Asian people." Health & Social Care in the Community 
22(3), 2014: 290-299. 
• H.Yamazaki. Rethinking good death: a case analysis of a Japanese medical comic. University of Oxford, Uehiro-Carnegie- 
Oxford Conference on Medical Ethics, 11-12 Dec, 2008.
Relational ethics: Western 
• Feminist ethics: Autonomy achieved in and through relationships 
‘The feminist ethics of care is based on the understanding that vulnerability and frailty – and therefore the need 
for care – are inherent within the human condition…. The relational nature of care means that the perspectives of 
all involved need to be taken into account.’ (Lloyd p.33) 
• Healthcare ethics: Presence as well as intervention (PLC) 
• Christian ethics: To be dependent is still to be human 
• Disability lobby: Colludes in stigmatising dependency 
• L.Lloyd, Health and care in ageing societies, Policy Press, 2012. 
• J.Tronto, Moral boundaries, Routledge, 1994. 
• A.van Heijst, Professional loving care, Peeters, 2011. 
• W.H.Vanstone, The Stature of Waiting, Darton,Longman,Todd, 1982.
Voices: East & West 
Individual 
autonomy 
Relationality 
Western / 
Individualist 
Loud Quiet 
Eastern / 
Collectivist 
Quiet Loud
POLITICS! 
• Neo-liberalism requires citizens to be self-governing 
individuals 
• Lack of agency = social death 
• Health message to the old: Keep active! 
OK, but marginalises 4th Age 
• Palliative care has UK government’s ear (eg 
National Choice Offer) & doesn’t want to lose it 
• Healthcare markets & the language of choice
Final Question? 
Palliative care: 
o Based on white, 2nd/3rd age cancer patients in 
individualistic Anglophone countries 
o Meshes with western political discourse about autonomy 
• Can its principles be rolled out from cancer to elder care? 
• Or do we have to start again from scratch, looking 
elsewhere for ideas? 
Thank you

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Thursday 30 October - Tony Walter

  • 1. Living and Dying in Very Old Age The limits of choice Tony Walter Centre for Death & Society University of Bath, UK
  • 2. Living & Dying in late old age: Ambivalence • One of the great achievements of advanced industrial societies is that most of their members live to a good age. • Dying in late old age: the kind of dying many people fear after the long life they hope for • My perspective: Age 66, not a healthcare professional
  • 3. Dying in late old age: Question • Under 1/3 of old people die of cancer • Principles & practice of palliative care are based on cancer • Can they be rolled out to other kinds of dying?
  • 5. Cancer & Frailty Contrasted HOSPICE PRINCIPLE REQUIRES 2nd / 3rd age CANCER 4th age FRAILTY and/or DEMENTIA Informed choice Clear prognosis & trajectory Awareness of dying Mental capacity Social agency √ √ √ √ X ? ? Reduced Living & dying at home Co-resident family members Capable family members √ √ ? ?
  • 6. INFORMED CHOICE: Who wants it? • Baby boomers / 3rd Agers: consumerist / neo-liberal / secular versus: • Non-western, religious patients: may prefer family/doctor/God to choose • Gradual giving up of agency as 3rd Age morphs into 4th Age • Survival vs Post-material values • C.Gilleard, P.Higgs. The third age & the baby boomers. International Journal of Aging and Later Life 2007, 2(2): 13-30 • R.Inglehart et al. Human values & beliefs: a cross-cultural sourcebook. University of Michigan Press, 1998.
  • 7. INFORMED CHOICE: Is it possible? • If mental capacity is reduced, then informed choice has to be made much earlier, when in good health. • But how does a healthy 3rd Ager know what it’s like to have dementia or a stroke? • Is the 4th Age a black hole? • C.Gilleard, P.Higgs. Aging without agency. Aging & Mental Health 14(2), 2010: 121-128.
  • 8. What do people fear about dying?
  • 9.
  • 10. What do people fear about dying? • Powerless in face of opaque systems • Unjoined-up care • Under-resourced care • Confusing care • Uncaring care Making choices doesn’t guarantee being in control!
  • 11. CHOICE: Summary Patients are now required to speak and state preferences/choices that: a) reflect a political agenda b) cannot be fully informed c) may not address their fears d) may not be realisable
  • 12. So what do people want? • To know they will be cared for • To know they will be cared about
  • 13. RELATIONALITY • Does dying in very old age need a relational ethic more than an ethic of individual autonomy? • Eastern relational ethics • Western relational ethics
  • 14. Relational ethics: Eastern Japan: Interaction relies on nonverbal empathic guesswork, considering others: omoiyari. • Implications for coma care. • Loss of autonomy ≠ social death. Maori: consult whanau: • Takes time • Individual may not have final say • Family group conferences have influenced western child care. Have they influenced palliative care? • R.Frey et al. "Advance care planning for Maori, Pacific and Asian people." Health & Social Care in the Community 22(3), 2014: 290-299. • H.Yamazaki. Rethinking good death: a case analysis of a Japanese medical comic. University of Oxford, Uehiro-Carnegie- Oxford Conference on Medical Ethics, 11-12 Dec, 2008.
  • 15. Relational ethics: Western • Feminist ethics: Autonomy achieved in and through relationships ‘The feminist ethics of care is based on the understanding that vulnerability and frailty – and therefore the need for care – are inherent within the human condition…. The relational nature of care means that the perspectives of all involved need to be taken into account.’ (Lloyd p.33) • Healthcare ethics: Presence as well as intervention (PLC) • Christian ethics: To be dependent is still to be human • Disability lobby: Colludes in stigmatising dependency • L.Lloyd, Health and care in ageing societies, Policy Press, 2012. • J.Tronto, Moral boundaries, Routledge, 1994. • A.van Heijst, Professional loving care, Peeters, 2011. • W.H.Vanstone, The Stature of Waiting, Darton,Longman,Todd, 1982.
  • 16. Voices: East & West Individual autonomy Relationality Western / Individualist Loud Quiet Eastern / Collectivist Quiet Loud
  • 17. POLITICS! • Neo-liberalism requires citizens to be self-governing individuals • Lack of agency = social death • Health message to the old: Keep active! OK, but marginalises 4th Age • Palliative care has UK government’s ear (eg National Choice Offer) & doesn’t want to lose it • Healthcare markets & the language of choice
  • 18. Final Question? Palliative care: o Based on white, 2nd/3rd age cancer patients in individualistic Anglophone countries o Meshes with western political discourse about autonomy • Can its principles be rolled out from cancer to elder care? • Or do we have to start again from scratch, looking elsewhere for ideas? Thank you