Pak 1974 National Assembly Proceedings

10 NATIONAL. ASSEMBLY 01: PAKISTAN 13~11z ~ ~ . .1 c l i l
Mr. Yahpa Bakhtiar: And is it correck t h a ~all rhs
members of Mirza Ghulam Ahmnd's fimily alc u.r-ol'f-icio
members of this Electoral College?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nearer cxciudes the further away.
, ' I
? L ~ & ~ ~ ~ d ~ ~ ? u ~ q ; a ~ j ~ ~ d l /... -. I-IX&!~J-'I~-
72 F a
#!>/-.& u - ~ e , ~ ~ < u ~ , ~ ~ ~ j ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ; J L . ~ ~ ; ~ ; : ~ ~ + ~-.
., uJ -
- , , ~ J ~ G ~ - U ~ J - , ! > / > ~ L L ! -d
7,&: - tThis oftice. Is it lor life time?-0. - JL - .
Rlirza Nasir Ahmad: 11is for life.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And whcrc you were elccled, was
there any other candidate who contested against you? Or
normally the election is unanimous'?
Slirza Nasir Ahmad: I'he election is unanimous..
onc. two ........ normally cuntcsts thc election.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sc
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: T
under nhich ihr selection is 11c
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A
these rules or conventions f
Khalifa from his office?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So~nchodyconic~ted 1 3 . :. +.
/. /
, W * ' . >
~ ~ ; ; ? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ~ iL,,f:-';.---- . - -
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are tlte ruies or c[>nvcntr~m:
under which the selection i s held in rhis manncr?
Canvassing ir not a!iood.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And. Sir, is there any ~~mvisio!lirt
these T U ~ ~ Sor conventions Sor the re~novalof the L~narnor
Khalifa from his office?

?It. -I!I?;. Bakhtiat: Lcgal position. If you pass an ordcr
I... . . . 1,.,..I~ ( : ~ ~ C I . ~ : ? L I ~ I I,:I- ivithou~consul~ationwith your colleag~~cs
cs lvith ........
, ,. . ,. ,
L,'., ,:- :;.L L~y.lb:, ----L a1~'&~,;1'~~1.,dl; :Jl/t I;/
/ /
u ~ ~ ~ , , = A . ~ + i . . ~ G ~ . < ! G l o ~ ~. - -5J=~"~$~+=LI
----No -----;kt :I-
-?<*&: unanimous :!:Jvtl;/
>I:. l'ai~ywBakiltiar: R4y question is a wry silnple o11le.
;..it!!' t!lc r)vcl ;:~le y c ~ ui'r can you o ~ e r r u l ethem. lcgally
iyc;lki~lg?In k!ct what cvcr may be the position. we are noL
k.orti.er!)cd.
3!irza Nasir Il~rnad:T i q cnn'l ovcnule mi..
Ilr. YahTa Bslihtiar: B ~ Lyuu can oven-ulehem?
IIirza Nasir Ahmad: And the question of my over-
r::l~:igilicm does not rise in the contaxr I have just told you.
.-
..!tfi,L-~y~&..& ~ ~ ~ l a n i ~ n o u smjlhnY~bL/u+Ld
-t-+&&Jlr d i / J L
hlr. Yahya Balihtiar: Bur you can ovenule them'?
LT-?L!l.y g~,,' ( ~ v c = u ] ~ ,JjJ J,31L/6iJ8&:J~/t1;/
-7
And they don't overrule me. -tS

CROSS-EXAMI.UAT10N OF THE QADIANI GROUP D E L U ~ A ~ O N 15
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you.
Sir, what is the significance of lbese three different titles-
Imam, Khalifa and Amir-ul-Momineen? How you or your
Jamaar interpret them?
* '
./ .&Jl<I-L y 1 2 8 1 official designation f-l:Jl/tli/
d J E ~ =bpi-&- L , J = I I & ~ ~ ~ L I - ~- t.LtJ&JB9+3
JI'P~"?J<~~J~I' & & / L L ~ I ~ J % . J ~ P ~ ~
Head of the World-wide Ahmadia C ~ m m u n i t y . & & ~ ~ ~ k l ~
&2,/d term in use ,>+,-+'&#j/v,+.Pix~
-fl&@$rf- dp-lo>
Mr. Yabya Bakhtiar: No, but you said that you are lmam
of the jamaat.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiari And you have not yourself chosen
the title of Imam? They call you?
Miza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! No. no. they call me .......
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .........out of respect?
Mr. Yabya Bakhtiar: And when they call you Amir-ul-
Momineen, what is the meaning of Amir-ul-Momineen, that
You are the Amir of all the momins?

18 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN lSLh Aug.. 1971 CROSS-EXAMINITIO!4 OFTHEQA
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the main function?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: o , that is the main function
I , . coro~lary6/>,dLgJikL dl~,~
<z f d k ~ & & ' ~ , @ ' ~ ~-. 61eLr~lddt&;~=zl
(~lY&bL{J~7j-gn$r<>lL,p{Jd7jd>L&pJ(i
&?,lw7-$n,&.2bL ~ 6 ; l ~ ~ kb ~ d j , > ~ ~ d ~ t d c &
.-&5d.3>
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir. when you convert these
people, you establish missions for this purpose all over the
world?
Miza Nasir Ahmad: Practically
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now can you give us an idea as to
how many, on the average, every year or every week, every
month, you convert to your faith?
Af~6,cff/dl,,'Jn61cr>/"
aJ: &icadult J~rr-rl-flU.. - -
hundred and sixty eight t h o u
- ~ J , 3 6 , t ~ > / ~ ~ , , ~
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Too
?f/;ll+dI:
&!=6,>112b.L~,>f,kL%
7 *.
$&2L(y~k1,,1~+fi,fi+A,lj,
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: C
many have been converted in P
so?
Mr. Yahya Balchtiar: In P
Mr. Yahya.Bakhtiar: b
population. I may cometo that tl

~ / J ~ ~ $ ~ , , ~ I J , ~ J x ~ J $ ~ > / ~ & ' ~ G &t~J@--+$~g
.,
i'a&&!k adult ~ ~ r r - r ~ - f ~ d ~ / u ~ $ t ~
hundred and sixty eight thousand were Ahmadis, according to
- L / & ~ J P ~ , / ~ J ~ ~ . + k%~~?~hJljtheir Census Report.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:Toobusy?
? ~ f i t ~ ~ & i ~ l l ~ ~ ~ ;i . - , - , d d g
J / ' , J j ~ ' ~ ~ L7 ~ J , I J ~ L ~-. , < ~ J f i ~ ; l > i ' ~ : g ~ / ~ l j /
$+$F'Jr~l~,l~+ ~ ~ J ~ J ~ , ~ ~ A ~ ~ P ~ L
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Could you please tell us, how
many have been converted in Pakistan in the past 20 years or
so?
*$'3 &Jcensus i/futf-10 iJ 8, : ~ f p tlj/
-
----J1;
Mr. Yahyn Bakhtiar: In Pakistan?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Sir, I am not asking the
Population. I may come to that the converts?

51 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [51h Aup.. 1974
~llcentire record is available before the debate opens. 1 think
Ihe debate will be after 20th.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes.
Mr. Chairman: By that time we will prepare the record
Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes; and copies should be
supplied.
Mr. Chairman: Copies of the Cross-examination.......:
(Interruption)
No, no, that has been decided by the Steering Committee;
the questions shall remain with the Attorney-General.
Sardar Moula Bakhsh S o o m : We should be given a
copy..........
(Interruprwn)
No, Sir, after writing, Sir, we should be given a copy after
you have finished.
SUPPLEMENTARYQUESTIONS FOR
CROSS-EXAmATION
4 0 n e thing 1 may also point out. -gGl[al:&,%-k
these may be handed over questions e/@&.g-
to Mr. Aziz Bhatti and to Moulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari; so
that the Attorney-General is not disturbed by the Chits. So,
during the break, the Attorney-General will receive these
questions and will examine them and whatever possible course

C O R R E C ~ O NOF RECORD OF THECROSS-EXAMINATION
is adopted, the ~ttorne~-Generalwill adopt.
Yes, Sahibzada Safiullab.
CORRECTION OF RECORD OF THE
CROSS-EXAMINATION
No, no. This is the privilege of the -2.2:
&.<J : A I & ) I ~ ~-f- - I
-members only ' I J ! : & ~ , R
-----JJ:AI&)J%~

122 NATIONAL A S S W L Y OF PAKISTAN
-
[Srh Aug.. 1974
........If the law is made what is a Muslim ----~ ; l g l i ~ J
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you think that, in the country,
the State has the right to make the law to lay down what is a
Muslim because the Constitution requires that the President
has to be a Muslim, the Prime Minister has to be a Muslim?
Or other way.........
Mr. Yahya Bakhtier: ........or in other way I can put it
that way..........
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if they make it in accordance
with the Injunctions of Islam?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 that means that they can make a
law laying down what a Muslim is or who is not a Muslimin
a negative form or in a positive form, and then the Election
Commissioner, in the light of that law. can reject the
nomination paper?

-
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADlANl GROUP DUEGATION 123
Y + ~ L ~ ~ ~ I + ~ ~ ~ J F $o. :JpZvk
----JJ~JJ '+6d2':2vtlj/
----<'d:Jpzvk
-+~J/~A~~JIJ~~~FAJU~$J--:2vt1;/
- - - - ~ T ~ L J & & B ~ J ~ ~ ~ J F J J ~ I:JpgYk
-6LJ&&o,~~suj~~:~vt~;/
Sir, while referring to the -+$ 0 ~ :JF ,k
Declarationof Human Rights, you have not relied on any
Article of the Declaration of Human Rights, but only on the
opinion of one of the draftsmen. Isn't it so?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Annexure-I is opinion of Dr.
CharlesM a l i of Lebanon. It is not any Article of..........
Mr.Yahya Bakhtiar:d, you have filed the Annexure.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:Appendix.

Is it a fact, Sir, that your
er of your community or your
do not accept Mima Ghulam
sort, as not Muslims, or Kailrs?
tr: I said 'not Muslims'; that's why I
bar: First I put that way you can
b:SO,according to you, they are not
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now, you said that Mufti
Mahmood has no right to say that you are not a Muslim.....
Mirza Nasir Ahrnad: And I have also said that I have
got no right to call him a......
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: --.-.butyou have in your.....I
mean when I say 'you',I do not mean particularly you,......
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ---but leaders of Ahmadiyya
Jamaat have called Muslinis who do not accept Mirza
Ghularn Ahmad as a Nabi, as Kafir, as not Muslims, or pucca
Kafir. I mean, to put it strongly......
-LJfl'LJli :JI/Cljf
Mr. Yahyn Bakhtiar: .....-no doubt. Isn't it so?

CROSS.U(AMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELeCATION 183
Sir, next quotation is:
This is from "Alfazal"June 1922, 26-29. I think it was
by-weekly in those days.
members........

ctammk
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN
PROCEEDING
THE'SPECIALCOMMITTEEOF WHOLE HOUSE HELD
IN CAMERA
Wednesday, the 7thAugust, 1974
-
The Special Committee of the Whole House of the National
Assembly of Pakistan met in camera in the Assembly Chamber,
(State Bank Building). Islamabad, at ten of the clock. in the
morning. Mr. Speaker (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair as
Chairman.
-
REClTATIONFROM THEHOLY QUR'AN

3 5 0 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 171h A U ~ U . ~ ,1Yl4 B~AMLNATLONOPTHE a
Mr. Chairman: Is Mr. Attorney-General prepared? Should
we call1them?
Mr. Yabyn BakhPar JAttorney-Ckrumlof Pgkistw)Yes, Sir.
Mr. Chalnnan: They may be,calleQ
(TheDelegation entered the Chqmber).
LKUSS EXAMINATION QFTWQADIANIGROUP
DELEGATION
Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: Mirza Sahib have you verified thal
qumtion which I read out yesterday.
............~ ~ ~ ~ ? ~ : ( # d 4 ~ ~ ~ ~ & k D k / 1 ~ D 1 ~ ~ t ~ j ~
-u~ti,~h.%,$,,t:~@&~?
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-0bt
'$~ ~ $ & A , $ . . . - - ~ # ~ L ~ ~ ! J U ~ ~ ~ X ~ > , ~ & : J P $ ~ ~
,,....fld&Lt?~L-;
The last question which I asked you and you were1.........your
information will be verified.
-etLL.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtir: P

tttorncy-General prepared? Should
mqy-Qwcenl of Pg&stan)Yes, Sir.
Chqmber).
ADIANIGROUP
Sahib have you verified that
bed you and you were,..-....-Your
CRDSS BXAM~NATLONOFTHB PUADlANl GROUP DBLACATION 35 1
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please clarify that.....Thank you

352 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OP P A K W A N (7Ul Auelt. I974
lap1few tLIt&l?eighty-three, eightyfour c&u+:
-&"&,l"lines of eighty-thme,
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Before you proceed further to clarify....,.
4 -&21/tlj/
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JJW=-'$<~~WL,~JG,,CJ~/JL/I&~/;~ ......IS
CROSS EXAMlNA'llON OP
-&vl l i k t ~ f c ~

CROSS EXAMINATION OF THe QUADIANI OROW DELEOATION 353

354 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th AYPUII. 1914
- CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE U
Mr.Yahya Bekhtlar: He is repeatingthe same'?
-C,SLcti,o~lu}.rlpt~2
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-" ~ f '
!' "J&": Jl/tlj/
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62gl+/dJ~~gdL(JJ~vL+%&JuV..~16~c
'I-4 jdd

repeatingthe same?
CWOSS E X A M I N X ~ O NOF THE QVADlANl GROUP UELEGATION 355

CKOSY EXAMINPXIUN Ur'l'W(
356 NATIONAL ASSWBLY OF PAKIY~AN (762AUWM. 1914

H A L ASSWILILY OF PAKISTAN [71hAugun. 1974

358 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Auuu~t,1974 CROSS EXAMMATION OFTlfl
....../,i'd,~;~j&r,~l-+? . 4J&JL?+$~L? J7j,rr>-0tL/?~Wd29 (
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If&j&,t29T T i , l - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ " ~ l " & ~ 1 9 1 5:JPtli/ page hundred and thirty-two.

CROSS EXAMMATlON OF THE QUAOlANl QROUP DF%EGATION 3 3 9
J , Z ~ J ~ I ) - ~ ~ C J ?JUPKZ~ ( L ~ & L ~ J L I ) : J Y ~ ~ ~ /T
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YJ I ~ K , ~ & ~
page hundred and thirly-two. I 132 '(CIV,LlluG(":Jl/t I;/
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- ~ ~ & ~ & & J ~ ~ / ~ ~ l ~ ~ f ~ J J l ! + b

360 NATIIJNAL W S k U t l L Y OF YAKIS7AN LrmAugust. 1974
CROSS FXAMINATION OP THE Q
-bd,/ver~y J:,pgYk ..I
-C
~ ~ y ~ 2 f ~ ~ ~ + ~ ~ ~ ~ 2 ? ~ ~ ~ & f ~ ~ & l " ~ & f 1 ~ ~ " : ~ ~ tMr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1 an
J J ~ ~ L J ~ I , J I - ~ ~ ~ J ~ ~ I L ~ , - . + & L ~ J ~ ~
is meant......
. . . . . - L ~ ~ , / , ~ ~ ~ J I ~ I I ~ ~ ~ I A.-
-$+,1/verify r;j&dlp$rk L&>&'+ t/J j+i,~~
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:J+
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....,.u * i , ~ ~ ~ P ~J I ~ ~ , 'jJ,@'Jyk.T

llLY OH YAXWlAN 118 AUEYSI,I974
CROSS ~XAMMATIONOF THE QUADIANI CUlOUP DELEOATION 361
dd~-+&d.:~~/~tr;/
F -+ :=+quolnt~on,di'di:-11/tli/
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1 am not volunteering to tell you what
is meant......

t h
362 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Auw8~.1974 CROSS EXAMMATON OF THEM
...Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
-&&Jlptli/ asserted that you wen part of M
kefore......
?d&equal :Jl;%$,k
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1
'b@p~t~":~~/t~j/ Pakistan?......
......i$c!arification -0,+~bL7?0,6+7 &I J&JQ$~C? Mirza Noslr Ahm~d: 1
p.Yahya FPkhUar: Sir. I asked some questions about the
+&fp@(?,atLseparatist tendency in Ahmadis
Mr. Yehya BPkhllan Ab
46.
with regard to that there is a statement of Mi~zaBashir-ud-Din.
Mahmud Ahmad. Before I ask about this statement, there IS an
impression that before the Independence, the stand of your Jamaat .......&ddb~,lJfi
was that you are a separate entity, you have nothing to do with
Muslims,, you are just like Christians or Parsees: but afler Mr. Yahya Bakhtlor:Tha
Independence, you have taken the stand that you are part of
...Muslims or Muslim Millat or Muslim nation, but before that, I Mlrza Nasir Ahmad;
.......mean to say, if you know that and you can reply. With that Muslim League
background, I am reading out this.......
Mlna Naslr Ahmad: I do not know what you are refemng
to, because I have never.......
Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: There is an impression that before
Independence......
Mr. Yahya BakhUar: Tha
M n a Naslr A h d : Betl
Mr. Yahya BakhUar:Befc
M n a Neslr Ahmad: Befi
-&&.L&L}:dlptl+L - Mr. Yehye BakhUar: Be
announcement that Pakistan b
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......You said that you were a separate be establishebput it that wa:
.......entity like Christians and Parsees Ifully......
-UH:Jl/'tli/ Mlna N d r A W : I th

IASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Auyusl, 1074 CROSS EXAM~ATIONOF THEQUADIANI GROUP DELEOATION 363
Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: .......But after Independence you
assertcd that you were part of Muslim Nation. Muslim M~llat,not
Mlrzs Naslr Ahmad: Not before the declaration of
Wstan?......
......MinaNaslr Ahmad: Thecreation of Pakistan?
...... &
..........Independence 6J} :,l;%gvk
-0~:~'lf tlj/
ir, I ask4 Borne questions about the
aratist tendency in Ahmadis
Mr. ~ a h y aBakhtlor: About that time. '47 up to that time).
46.
a atatemat of Mina Bashir-ud-Din,
k about this statement, there is an
purdence, the stand of your Jamaat .......d f ~ f l l , ~ l ~ ~ ~ t f i g h tv & ~ J z o ~ : J ~tj/
entity, you have nothing to do with
e Christian6 or Parsees; but after Mr. yahya BakhUar: That was.......
ken the stsnd that you are part of
......or Muslim nation, but before that. I Mirza Naslr Ahmad: Shoulder to shoulder with the
that and you can reply. With that Muslim League.......
Mr. Yahya BnkhCLar: That was after 3rd June. 1947.
II do not know what you are referring
Mlna Naslr Ahmad: Before the creation of Pakistan.
.......
t Mr. Ynhya Bakhthr:Before the
:There is an impression that before
M i m Naair Ahmnd: Before the creation of Pakistan.
- & ~ y ~ ' + & ~ : d ~ t l j / Mr. Yahys Bakhtlar: Before the announcement. Before the
announcement that Pakistan had to become a real~ty.was going to
......You said that you were a separate
C....... ......
be establishebput it that way-the 3rd June statement of 1947.
I fully
Mina Nasir Ahmad: I think the imagination is too far

SATIORL ASSEhlRLY OF P,KISTAN (7111 Aopun, 11171
CR~SS-EXAMINATIONOF THE QAO
4')Lj
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c.0~~-EXAMINATIONOF THEQADLANI <jROUr DEL=AnOY 491

516 NA'lIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 18UI AU~UII. 1976

3111 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF P A W A N [Sib Auew. 1974

C R O S S . ~ ~ ~ A T I O NOFW E QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 579
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............"~J'IJ~ <d":Jp$?k
Y& c"t/~Jd(d":i.l/rljf

590 NATIONAL ASSEUULY OF PAKISTAN L81h A u ~ u n .1 9 7 ~ QUOTATIONSUNSUPWRTE
QUOTATIONS UNSUPPORTEDBY ORIGINALDOCUMENTS
2171du1,i~ - J & > ~ l , ? ~ a ~ ~ ~ J L d ~ ~ y k
-ruled out&-+L>AJJ~,~,J~
:,LJ U7,j "d Gl'Y$
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Mr. Chairman: Sarda
resume his seat; and MI. Qun
LL- &r~~@
-,$L~Jf&1G.cdlkl
reY
+&J $IPJ,r:&f ,~-r?.*.
:+3'977'
p "+
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Any honourable membe~
.
J;;! j~l'l.JH t/&.; 1:
#,J'&& OILLujli

QUDTAllONS Lh'SUPWRTED BY ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS 591
Mr. Chairman: Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro to please
resume his seat; and Mr. Qusuri also.
-cl;.~tdJ~~~P='+& ' : ~ i ~ j c : ~ l t ~
Any honourable memberwho would like to say something?
. ............-7 !Y)b$ f ~ & , ~ ~. -

Mr. Chairman:The House is adjourned to meet at 6.00p.m.
[rile Special Committee adjoumdfor Lunch Break ro re-assemble
a~6.00p.m]
L,~L.,.2yTyl~J'+t b ~
[The Special Cornmittre re-assernbledafier Lunch Break Mr,
Chaimlan (Suhibdu Furooq Ali) in fheChair.]
Mr. Chairman: Are we ready?They may be called.
-+114 /UI &Is, -6 j ~ j!+LP ,~hr ~LIYG,P
They may enter at any time.
ri,i py :J / $ ~ J Y
.Yes. Now they are -L8 Y L y 1 *g$ o(:: (;C$ ck:t
:omlng.
Yes,the AUorney-General.
Mr. Cldrmm: 1 would sa'

-
CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHE QADIANICROUP DBLECiTION 59.;
CROSS-EXAMINATIONOFTHE QADIANI GROUP
DELEGATION
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#
+ J L L~2 y i v l X l ~4 .tbnobjection JL~ ' L LD? I
Mr. Chairman: It would save us a lot of time.
-d, J'ptdnylzJ

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAK~STAN [W? AuguL 1974
Definition may filed. And that will be read as part of the
evidence. Pan of the examination.
Mr.Yahga Bakhtiar: File as a document,Sir.
Mr. Chairman: Yes, file as a document.d d a t e 2bLfl
............with date&d ~ / ~ $ ~ n n e x u r e ~ f
............L,,~&r:z~/r~;f
....
c d ; ,613 1~1~3continuation LC Annexure :t$s t?

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 5<>5

596 N A T I O N A L ASSEMIILY O P PAKI-AN 18th Augusl. In4

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHEQADlANl GROUP DELMATION 597
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:uHi,;4J l

6S2 N A T I O N A L ASSEMB1.Y O F PAKISTAN 9th A u p n . 1974
I~JL~ 2 :iCJ#;/. . . . . . .I&Ji - -
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/*;id/ clarify L/elaborate

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Cp.088-EXAM~PTIONOf THE Qf

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CROSS-EXAMMAmON OF THE QADlAHl GROUP DELEGATION 723

752 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9rh A U W . 1974
Mr. Chairman: Ask the translation.
G. - -' . . . :,-+T&$J->
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( d l * ) ................ y
-J.d>/3?yfc/l:~;r:~~k-
Let it go on the record.
Mr. Chairman: u?'lust a minute. Let this Ayat be translated
by rhe witness.
-d.'- J- *I; 6e7‘f12 't ' d l J P !, k ' : o t F ~ + k
This 1s the question.
Mr. Chairman: Nowsthewitness can add the explanation.
CROSS-EXAMINATION O F THE Q

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(Pause)

Mr. Chairman :Then it need not be repeated. It can be
referred page so and so of Mahzar-Nama yes, it need not bc
referred.
(Interruptions)

PROCRAMME FOR FlJRTHER SITTINGS 01'TllE COMMITTEE 85'.
Mr. Chairman: I know, on the Auomey-General, and on ihc
witness also.
you a r e f t ~ j ~ h ~ i c a lStrain 8 9 (1.&:J$ $
well-acquaintedwith the facts, with the islaniic law, I am not.
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Three days JelqL(J L, tllbl fur&7 17 UJ 2:&* ,C?.
earlier the members of the delegation will be informed.Thank you
very much. And no proceedings have to be disclosed. The
honourable membersmay keep silting.
(The delegation lefi the Chumher)
Mr. Cbairmsn: Yes,anyhonourable member who would
~ r ! - ~ J n ~ ~ ~ ~ d b , 6 ' - +procedurel~ki4 i ~ klike to say?
The reporters are free,they can go, they can have recess.&
Now wc will meet asNatiosal Assembly on Monday at 6.00 p.m
(The Special Cornmineeadjournedsani die)

888 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY Or:PAKISTAN 12aL Au:.. I914

944 NATIONAL A S S E m L Y OF PAKISTAN [2ahAay.. I971 CKOSS-EXAMMATION OF THE C
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f

EMBLY O F PAUSTAN 120th AuY.. 1974
I -= - -
% = d ! + ~ l ; / : , p & k
k LJ.1, d%-JgLI,/ request
-!&& staternenr - GI i d 2 1'L
CHOSS-EXAMMATI<)N OF THE QADIANI GROUP VELEC'IATION 945
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954 KATICJWL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISThN [lmh Auy..l9il CROSS-EXAMVIA'I30N OFTHE p A I
Mr. Chairman: Yes, if w111save a lot of lime or the House Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... . an
andof the witness also.
Mr. Chairman: But if all the
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I know, his valuable time.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whe
It ......
Mr. Chairman: Then, if it can be agreed between the witness
and the .-..
Mr. Chairman: But, Mr. A:
consumed in reading the Hawnlaja
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I requested Mirza Sahib wherever
he considered necessary, he will speak in detail; otherwise he will
just briefly say something about it and file it.
IM~.Chairman: And than we can cross over to the exami-
nation, lest of the examinallon.
Mr. Chairman: If all the t
Hawalajat then......
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I know the difficulty, but I want
Mirza Sahib..--..
Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is upto the witness.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......if he thinks necessary,...,
Mr. Yahya Bakbtiar: ...... then he will give in detail,
othenvise he will briefly mention it.
I may ask the witness, if he likes. hc
can file all the, all the wi-itten.....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but the thing is, Sir, the
Committee membcrs. ....
Mr. Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..... will not be able to read e v e 0
document because the debate time is short. That is why I said that
Mjrza Sahib should briefly expalin.... -
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, S
questions......
Mr. Chairman: .-- . then, tht
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...-
verification, he is giving reply. Ma
think, one or two are left.
Mina Nasir Ahmad: oif
-
Mr. Chairman: Because, f
questions: one, that the particula
admitted? If not admitted, then n
explanation by the witness tha~
context.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sil
before that if I am charged with e
and the Majistrate asked me, I s
thc some offence". Now, if Mirz;
Hawalajat and other Hawalajat h

TIClN4L ASSEMBLY Of PAKISTAN IZOul AUK., 1974
: Yes, it will save a lot of time of the House
80.
htiar: Yes. I know, his valuable time
:Then, if it can be agreed between the witncss
khtiar: No, I requested Mirza Sahib wherever
iary, he will speak in derail; otherwise he will
thing about it and hle it.
I: And than we can cross over to the exami-
amination.
khtiar: No, 1 know the difficulty, but 1 want
I: Yes, it is upto the witness.
khtiar: ......if he thinks necessary,......
, ~ : & , % ~ k
Sakhtiar: .... then he will give in detail.
iefly mention it.
R:Yes. I may ask the witness, if he likes, hc
le written......
Bakhtiar: No, but the thing is, Sir, (he
9 ...
R:Yes.
.....Lakhtiar: will not be able to read eve'?
the debate time is short. That is why I said ha'
.brieflyexpalin..-. -
......Mr. YahyaBakhtiar: and then file.
Mr. Chairman: But if all the
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Wherever he thinks, you know, that
,I....
Mr. Chairman: But, Mr. Attorney-General, if all the lime is
consumed in reading the Hawolajat then--.--.
Mr. Chairman: If all the time is consumed in reading the
Hawalajat then......
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, the thing is that we ask ccnain
questions.....
Mr. Chairman: ......then, then....-.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......and to those questions, after
verification, he is giving reply. Most df them have been over now. I
think, one or two are left.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: L J ~if you ......
-
Mr. Chairman: Because, for all Hawalajat, there were two
questions: one, that the particular statement, which was made. is
admitted? If not admitted, then no second question. If made. then
explanation by the witness that it was given in such and such
context.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I pointed out to Mirza Sahib
before that if 1am charged with an offence and I am taken to COLlll
and the Majistrate asked me, I say: "Otherj have also committed
the some offence". Now, if Mirza Sahib goes on giving Sil-.Sycd's
Hawalajat and other Hawalajat because Mirza Sahib said tlie same

956 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF I'AklSTAN IZOrIl Au:. 197.1
CIIOSS-WLAHTNATIONOF'TW.QADIAN
thing-----I mean that may be relevanr from his point o f
view- but it will not justify this, nor will it expalin it, because
hgim Sahib, according lo them, held a very different position.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: -....But,I think, 1 have not commitred
any criminal offence.
. .
no insinuation. I have just given an e x a m p l e , ~ d L / r ' . J ~ ~ Y ~ :
and I brought myself in. I don? want to insinuate and hurt your
reelings. I was giving an example that. for anything, you cannot say
that "because others have done". That will not jutisy, tkat will nut
expalin it.
Mr. Chairman: That is a question of argument.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say I have pointed out onething.
Mr. Chairman: ......we are talking of the procedure,
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib says, no that was ~lii:
background, this was the history, from his point of view-..
Mr. Chairman:No,my only idc
Iiouse .....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know.
Mr. Chairman: ......we do nM u
honourable members. the witness and
Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: I am awn
House valuable time of Mina Sahib
but this is a very important thing......
Mr. Chairman: If. if. if we can :
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......1 wi
the committee should come to a very 1
Mr. Chairman: My only, m:
written reply to Hawalajar can be file
and the copies will be cyclostyled a
That is my point.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I
alongwith the rcpiy, he can give a br
better, because this is not evidence, a
Mr. Chairman: No. But if the
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if it i
Mr. Chairman: Yes. it is a writ
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: -----itwi
beexplained.

'IONALASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN lUXh AU:.. 1914
that may he relevant from his point of
not justify this, nor will it expalin it. because
g to them, held a very different position.
[mad: -- ..But, I think, 1have not committed
. .
just given an examp~e,C&d'.,L;%g+k
. .
In. I don't want to insinuate and hurt your
an example that, for anything, you cannol say
lave done". That hill not jutisy, that will not
That is a question of argument,
htiar: I say I have pointed out onething
we are talking of the procedure.
khtiar: Mirza Sahib says, no that was thc
the history, from his point of view.---
Mr. Chairman:No, my only idea was to save the time of the
House ......
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know.
Mr. Chairman: ......we do not want to tax the patience of thc
honot~nblemembers, the witness and cveryhody concerned.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am aware of the valuable time of the
House valuable time of Mirza Sahib, and I am nlso getting tired.
but this is a very important thing.. - .
Mr. Chairman: If,if. if we can minirnise.....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .--..I want every clarification so that
the committee should come to a very fair decision.
Mr. Chairman: My only, my only point was that if the
written reply to Hawalajat can be filed, it will he read in evidence,
and the copies will be cyclostyled and given to all the members.
That is my point.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that we doing, Sir. But if,
alongwith the reply, he can give a brief clarification, I think that is
better, because this is not evidence, and it is not inten'ogatory.
Mr. Chairman: No. But if (he witness says that this reply
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if it is a wlitten reply....
Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is a written reply.
.....Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: i t will be pointed out. That it will
be explained.

962 NATIONAL ASSEMBL.Y OF PAKISTAN
[?ah Aug.. 1974 CROSS-EXAAIINATION OF THE OADIAl
Mr. Chairman :When, I think, the denial comes, there is no
need of explanation.
if..... dt:Jt%s,k-
Mr. Chairman :When, when a fact is denied that it never
existed.. .......
Mr. Chairman :There is no need of explanation.
&df,G~i~~d~~JkJuxt/&ny=&c&'~f/tfj/- . -
J-'- 103t/ deny=&-4>-6,~>dl<&A fdld d
'LL d,fJi52!, b ~ l ~ ) J J > d l & > , ~ ~ & p d J k ~ d d ~
-LIH~J/deny&=i&)JJ!
j you don't believe of it$d& iyr'& :JV$,k
"Ahmad, a Massenger of " t k
"Ahrnsdayyat or theTrue Islamu-
-b'
-d~jdJdgJ-u'di:~~tlj/ ----QNJIL,)~M<~dJ-
Mr. Chairman:This is sufficient. Now we go on to the next. (Pause
(Pause) :f ddl-@elf explwatary&bl

$ J i c - p 0 J l + J L ; W J J ~ : J ~ ~ ~ ~ ; /
:When, I think, the denial comes, there is no
if ..... d}:J@$Y k
I :When, when a fact is denied that ir never.
I :There is no need of explanation
' d e n y l ~ - c ( > - g , J J > ~ ~ . & h g d l d ~
~ J J : ~ ~ , ~ L ' Z~/.~J,JJ~JIf
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,
-61
- G L ~ ~ / ~ ~ J - U ~ U : J V ~ I ~ /
n: This is sufficient. Now we go on to the nexl.
(Pause)
"Ahmadayyal or the True ~slarn"__J~,,~~r~bJ:J I / ~ I ~ /
-G,JIA, : J ~ $ u k---
----Qb~fiJ,Jlt:gdl-f &,=-+J J ~ # o , ~ ~ l . : J v ~ ~ v
(Pause)

966 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120L Aug.. I n 4
CROSS.PXAMLNATIONOF THe QmIA
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I wonder. How do you, how can you
estimate without there being any statistics to base your estimathn?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have estimated, Sir, that the
Ahmadis are four million: they can estimate.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..... I don't remember - I may be wmng

~jlJ+=+p,~/~~~j:JI/L.I~/
-f~_lX~!t~t,censuS
~stimatcd& : , p g y k
-LJi:JJ/tlj/
-PL,8&8&~8j: J p $ y k
d: I wonder. How do you, how can you
being any statistics to base your estimation?
htiar: You have estimated, Sir, that the
on; theycan eslimate.
r: .....I don't remember - I may be wrong
----->J&J+=$~~ !/-
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CROSSBXAMVIIATIONOF THE QAUlANl GROUP DELEGATION 967
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97 2 NATIONAL ASSEMR1.Y OF PAKISTAW 120th Auz.. 1V76
CROSS-EXAMINA'nON OF T H E QADI
(Pause
:'I.++t,Q 2JLJ;
(31)

(Pause)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Chairman. Sir, I am feeling tired.
Mr. Chairman: Can the witness come after 10 mlnutes of
recess. or 15 minutes of recess?
d / ~ ~ ~ ~ L / : ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ . ~ r e q u u t- =&/:JP$,L?-
-.+'!LYi/:J
Mr. Chairman: We want to. This is..-.
Mirza Naslr Ahmad: We meet tomorrow at 10.00a.m.?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tomorrow, there is a meeting, Spcnker
is going Cabinet.
Mr. Chairman: If, if we......citherwc...--.if.--.no, we have tl'
give ;~llowancelo the witness---.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, hec
Mr. Chairman: No, no quesc
there two proposals:Eithw we si
after 15 minutes to start, andsit up t(
Mr. Yahya DakhUar: If, if Mil
Mr. Chairman: ......if the wjtne
......L.
Mr. Chairman: .....he"ill beu
J1~.Lydyb7!+b1+f~&6
f
Mr. Chairman: It is up to the
the.-...
.,..;.,--Jf,J~)j~/r~~-&
hk. Chairman: lt was ......
-+J(oI~ dutyjdijc
hlr. Chairman: No,no......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because he is tiled, we can't ......
, . . . . . ! J ~ ~ ? r . ~ ~ : J ~ ~ ~ k..
, . Mr. Chairman: No, no question of continuing, though-....
j,id/ ....J C ~ & : J ~ P L : I ~ / there are lwo proposals: Either we sit up to 10.00or we give reccss,
afier 15minutes to start, and sit up to 10.30or, if. - -
- ~ t . J ; P b ~ d d j ~ /
Ihmd: Mr. Chairman,Sir, 1am feeling tired
e:Can rhc witness come after 10 minutes of
of recess?
-+O/MLJJ'
:We want to. This i s - - - .
Ihmad: iYe meet t o m o m at 10.00a.m.?
khtiar:Tomorraw, there is a meeting, Speaker
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If, if Mirza Sahib......
Mr. Chairman: .-...if !he rvjtness feels that he --.-
Mr. Chairman: ...h e will be unable to, then we can brcak.
Mr. Chairman: it is up to rhc witness, hecaose witness has
the.- ..
W. Chairman: It was
Mr. Chairman:No, no
,,:~ f .,f we....&her we.. ...if. --.no,we have LC1b

L E n E R S FROM QADIAN GROUTS RE: SUPPLY OF 1'APES
AND ADVANCE NOTICES OF QIESTIONS IN
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Mr. Chairman :Before they are called, two letters have been
addressed to the secretary. National Assembly, by Mina Mansul-
Ahmed, Nazir-e-Aala. Sadar Anjumane, Ahmadiyya Pakistan,
Rabwah. One for the supply of the tape, and the other. I will read it.
Of the tape, that. 1have refused in any Chamber. At pmseiit it
cannot be granted to any person because our proceedings are
confidential.
The House agrees with me?
Members :Yes.
Mr. Muhammad Haneef Khan :Sir, you dsed the words 'at
p~esent'.1think, not at present, the tape of the Assembly commit
be granted at any time.
Mr. Chairman :At any time. The order is that this time this
q u e s t commit be Conceded.
Prof Chafoor Ahmad :Even proceedings should nor be
given. Not only lhe tapes.
Mr. Chairman :The proceedings shall be given only to Lhe
honourable members. which are ready, which yesterday. I said that
they can collect the proceedings.
The Second letter, the operation portion. I need in the House :
"in any opinion, to facilitate the matter and the assist the
Committee in reaching a just conclusion, which the
Committee so earnestly desires and also in order to be
fair to the parties concerned, it would be advisable if the
written questions and given in advance and their answers
submined in writing. As a result of our experience in the
first session in the Committee, we sincerely believe that
had this procedure been adopted earlier, it would have
saved a lot of valuat
not a criminal proc
examination of a ac
Committee is studyi
religious beliefs 01
moment and only i~
the history of Islam.
please convey ow F
am sure, the Comn
seriousness of the is!
1would live to hear the A
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar :
the Delegation has come to
They wanted to be heud If th
be present have and we wil
points. Now, it is impassible t
whenever we ask a question tl
lor clarification. That would
question 1ask, that have to b
give time nfter that and the
written replies were to be U
have come at all. We wuld
interrogatory, which they cou
thc point was than that they
not possible it is physically i~
in concerned, Sir, 1am the fi
as they wanted.
Now we are at the fag a
wanted more to answer any $
by you and by the house. The
questions they prepared, and
this is not a reasonable questi
Mr. Chairman :Now,
and the supplementarits areg
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
every subject. I tell t h m in a
am going to ask r few quec

ADIANl GROUPS RE: SUPPLY OF TAPES
NCE NOTICES OF QIESTIONS IN
CROSS-EXAMINATION
P:Before they are called, two letters have been
tary. National Assembly, by Mirm Mansur
.Sadar Anjumane, Ahmadiyya Pakis~an,
supply of the tape, and the other. 1will read it.
I have refused in any Chamber. At plesent it
any person because our proceedings are
aneef W a n :Sir, you used the words 'at
present, the tape of the Assembly commit
y time. The order is that this time this
d :Even proceedings should not be
proceedings shall be given only to the
ch are ready, which yesterday. I said that
,the operation portion. I need in the House :
ion, to facilitate the matter and the assist the
in reaching a just conclusion, which the
so earnestly dwires and also in order to be
parties concerned, it would be advisable if the
and given in advance and their answers
ng. As a result of our experience in the
the Committee. we since~elybelieve that
cedure been adopted earlier, it would have
saved a lot of valuable lime ol' the House. Afrc~.all, 11 1s
nut a criminal proceedings or an ordinary legal cross
examination of a accused, a individual or a pany. The
Committee is studying a many serious mallel- involving
religious beliefs of millions of peoplc ii in a _era:e
moment and only in the history vf Pakista~ibut also in
the history of Islam. I would, therefore, be grateful if you
please convey our request to the Steering Committee. I
am sure, the Committee, realizing the gravity and thc
seriousness of the issue, would grant our request."
I would live to hear the Attorney-General.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar :(Attolney-General of Pakistanj. Sir.
the Delegation has come to the Assembly at then own requesl.
'They wanted to be heard. If they wanted to be heard, then they will
be presenl have and we will and question lo elaborate ccrtain
points. Now, it is impassible to send questions in advance because,
whenever we ask a question there are five, six, ten supplernentarics
lor clarification. That would mean that whatever supplcmcntary
question I ask, that have to be given to then in writing. You will
give time after that and they willsubmit writlen rcply. If the
written replies were to be taken form then. then they world not
have come at all. We could have sent a number of questions as
jnterrogato~y,which they could have ansu'ered from Rahwah. But
the point was than that they should clan@ the position. And it is
not possible it is physically impossible. Point as far as the hearing
in concerned, Sir, 1 am the first person to give them as much time
as they wanted.
Now we are at the fag end of this examination. Whenever thcy
wanted more to answer any question, they have bee given the time
by you and by the house. There was a break of Days. About fifteen
questions they prepared, and answered those yesterday. So, I think,
this is not a reasonable question nor is it practicable.
Mr. Chalrman :Now, I think. most of the questions are over
and the supplementaries are going on.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only on three subjects. And, about
every subject, I tell them in advance. That about Akhand Bharat, 1
am going to ask a few questions; about 'their Separatism' I am

CROSS-EXAMINATlON OFTHE Q*I
r "
' 2 I
the morning, the ob~ectsto expcdite the matter and finlsh 11as early
as wc can.
!JPI7
SUGGESTION RE: MEETING OFTHE STEERING
COMMITTEE
Mr. Chairman: That is very necessary. I think, let the law
Minister come. He promised to come at 7.30 after Maghib praym.
Then we can fixa time.
This is rny.-....&JJ~ -Hfull day utilize JJIJrik_b &
thcn SteeringCommitteeshould C ~ L ~k&d/T&j9 4/rJ
go into sesson and review the progress and give a decision
And........
(Inlerruption)
.and decidethe matter and tell me. .d*b&2b~(;If I
They may becalled.
-d'k2w4
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who is the person d'k L
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Malik Muhammad Akhtar:
Yes, they may be called.
-&LLS
' -LL>JGbfd27,
( 7 7 ~Delegmion enteredthe I
Mr. Chafrman: Yes, Mr. At
CROSS-EXAMINATIONC
DELEG
SECRECYOFTHEPROCXEDINGS
.&y;CJ. 01@secret, @llprocdings =.

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHE QADIANI GRDlTP DELEGATION YY3
who is the person j k L/4r :i;C+ Y k
-+~ P b b ~He is either-d Messengerclerks
Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Wanted to say something Yl
Yes, they may be called
(TlleDelegation entered the Chamber.j
hfr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Attorney-General
CROSS-EXAMINATIONOFTHE QADIANIGROUP
DELEGATION

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CROSS-EXAMMAllONOFTHB QADIANI GROUP VELE(;ATION 99')

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHE QADIANI GROUP DEWiATION 100 I

"2 &/ repudiate -;J+ --&L . .!db lj/ 7:JP3?k
~/&JP~L,~J+Qo~~/.=J-~~/J=
league wasnot A + P < d / ~dJ'IJ'bG1%(i J:
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Mr. Yahya Rakhtiar: Yes, that, is what T rncan; I don't mean
polltical activity; I never suggested that.
. . .
2''Field of missionary activity-'&,&,& : J f / t I>,/
-+> % t H d J l ) l ~ , ~ 1 3 1 3 . ~ i t i ~ " n c t i v i t ~ ~ ( ? j i
L~~,&~~~LH~.,J=J~+. , &'lyd:,l;%;j/"- ..-.b
-+s.+Lz&'I~~l;Jf,-'l:l;f
"our / ~ t~ ~ y ~ > d ' & & k C ~ ~ " : ~ & $ Y F-
..----dJfA ddll L/Iforeign missionw
Mirzn Nasir Ahmad: This is from the concise Oxford
Dictionary: "The field of missionary activiry"
"AhmadiyyaMission in Isri
Israel because you said this.. ....
Ahmadiyya Mission
Mount Karma1 we
HO&C, a library, a B
also brings out a MO
sent out to thirteen dil
the medium of Arabi
have beentranslated
"Some time ago, oul
the mayor of Haifa, v
points he offered tc
village near Haifa,
established Ahmadiy
He also promised tha
at Kababcer which
notables from Hai.
members of the con
school. A meeting
Before his return, I
Visitors' Book.
Another small incid
idea of the position 1
in 1956 when our 1
Sharil, returned to H

.-.lY,.nLno~Y..DL1 Yr r-th,,>I ALY 11111 A I I ~ Y S ~ .1974 LKUSS-tXAM1NATK)N OF THE UADIANI GROUP DELEGATION I I I O Y
akhtiar: Yes, that, is what I mcan; I don't mwn
never suggested that.
. . .
onary activity-'&,&,& :2'l/t lj,
e
----L.:>/A(dly 1 &dlforeign mission"
Ahmad: This is from the concise Oxrord
dof missionary activity"
"AhmadiyyaMission In Israel" because 1said: "The mission in
Israel because you said this..........."
Ahmadiyya Mission in Israel is situated in Haifa nt
Mount Karma1 we have a mosque there, a Mission
~ o u s e ,a Library, a Book Depot, a school. The Mission
also brings out a Monthly entitled All-Bushra' which is
sent out to thirteen different countries accessable through
the medium of Arabic many works of prophet Messiah
have been translated into Arabic through this Mission."
:dg&~&JI,~
"Some time ago, our missionary had an interview with
the mayor of Haifa, when, during the discussion on many
points he offered to build us a school at kababeer a
village near Haifa, where we have a strong and well
established Ahmadiyya Community of Palestinian Arabs.
He also promised that he would come to see our Mission
at Kababeer which he did later, accompanied by our
notables from Haifa. He was duly received by the
members of the community and by the students of our
school. A meeting had been to welcome the guests.
Before his return, he entered his impressions in the
Visitors' Book.
Another small incident, which would give readers some
idea of the position the Mission in Israel occupies, is that
in 1956 when our missionary, Chaudhry Mohammad
Sharif, returned to Headquarters.. ............"

Lf "Separatist tendency"& / r i ~ ~ ? &c/I:&k
:J'?J fl+j~]
"Ahmadis form a separate community fron the outside
Musalamans." 1
-+&J fin1 d d ~ ~ ~ c l i n gQdi 7
"The year 1901 was the year of census. The Prom~sed
Messiah issued a notice to his followers askir. them to
get themselves recorded in the census pagers. tndcr the
name of 'Ahmadia Musalarnan'. This was, thczefore, the
year when, for the flrst time, he differen~iatedhis
followers from the other Muslims by the name of
'Ahmadiya"'.
:.+
"injunctions to Ahmadis regarding Marriage."
-~~/I~~,:J&+c?J,~,I.~HJ$IJ&=?
Mr. YahyaBakhtiar:
"the same year, with
the community and to
promulgated rules reg
and forbade the Ah
maniage to Non-Ahrr
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:lnj
Mina Nasir Ahmad: Nc
-,2$,b 8, &?

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The Honounble members may keepsitting.
(The&legation l e .the Chamber).
Mr. Cbdmmw The Houseis adjournedto meet at 7.30.
Thankyou vay much.
7le Special Commit~ee.aajoumed/or Maghrib Prayers
& mea at 7.30p.m
The Special Com'nee.re-assembledafter Maghrib Prayers. Mr.
Chaimian (SahibzadaFar- Ali) in rhe Chair.
TIMEFOR CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mr. C-n: So far as the first.........
Ssiyid A b h H W n Gsrdui: kept standing.
So far as the fist point is concerned, we cannot sit for an
definiteperiod only on this ground that we am pl.cparing mcord for
the generations we cannot sit for one year or thnc months or two
months...........

1 038 NATIONAL MSEMOLY OF PAKISTAN 121>1 Auaust. 197.1

ITlONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (211~AYFUII. 1974

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [?Is1 August 1974
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 28:
"...........(On whom be peace), and those who only
restore and re-establish the law after mankind have
forsaken it; as,for instance, Elyah,Isaiah, Ezekiel Daniel
and Jesus (On all of whom be peace). The prophet
Messiaha (on whom be peace) also claimed to be prophet
like the laner, and asserted that as Jesus was the last
khalifa (Successor) of the Messiaha dispensation, he was
the last khalihof the Islamic dispensation".
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
"... ........ Just as he was tl
dispensation he was the
dispensation. The Ahmadiyyi
with respect to the other so
which Christianity occupied 1
Judaism."
Does it not conclusively r
different religion compared to Ja
religion compared to other sects?
Please mark the words: "He asserted. M i m Nasir Ahmad: No.
biirza Nasir Ahmad: He was the Khalifa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:This I
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
"........... and assented that just as h s u s was the last
khalifa (Successor) of the Mosaic dispensation, he was
J' comparison R s,/& p-fk
the last khrlifa of the Islamic dispensation."
----'I$ footing'; :Zl/C. 12,
:JLd ' k ~ ~ i ~ d. ~ l p tI;,
"Muhammad (on whom
AI/ being this the like of M
necessary that the Messi
not mlybefrom among
re-establish and pmpag
came with nonew law. I
-----$A .:Jivlakv

On whom be peace), and those who only
re-establish the law after mankind have
as, for instance, Elyah, Isaiah, Fzekiel Daniel
(Onall of whom be peace). The prophet
1n whom be peace) also claimed to be prophet
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
"........... Just as he was the last khalifa of the Mosaie
dispensation he was the last khalifa of the Islamic
dispensation. The Ahmadiyya Movement, therefore, occupied
with respect to the other sects of Islam, rhe'same position
which Christianity occupied with respect to the other sects of
Judaism."
and asserted that as Jesus was the last
ssor) of the Messiaha dispensation, he was Does it not conclusively show that as Christianity is a
the Islamic dispensation".
different religion compared to Judaism, Ahmadiyyat is a different
religion compared to other sects?
ords: "Heasserted".
td: He was the Khalifa,
d assented that just as ~ k s u swas the last
ssor) of the Mosaic dispensation, he was
of the Islamic dispensation."
----Q+ J/ ~ o m ~ a r e r , ~footingfi 4
----c& footing(2:A'I,~
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-----JY%
Mina Nasir Ahmad: No.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This I want you to clarify.
"Muhammad (on whom be peace and blessings of God),
being this the like of Moses (on whom be peace), it was
necessary that the Messiah of lslamic dispensation should
not only be fmm among hjs followers but should come to
re-establish and propagate the Qunnic law just as Jesus
came with no new law, but only confirmed theTorah......"

1052 N A T M N N ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Izlrt A u p n . 1914
".......Ihave already indicated that one of the functions of
a Prophet, who is not the bearer of a new law, is to sift all
errors and misinterpretations which may have crept into
an existing religious system owing to lapse of time. and
this in itself is a great task. To discover and restore that
which had been lost is almost as great a task as to supply
that which is new. But we believe that the promised
Messiah (on whom be peace) had a much higher mission
to perform. In order, however, to understand what that
mission was it is necessary first to understand clearly our
position with regard to the Holy Quran.---
what I wanted to show you,Sir. ,$i / & s c r i k Lis,R
is that Mina Bashimddin Sahib, in his book or lecture draws the
parallel that Miiza Sahib has got the same position with regsrd to
Islam or Prophet Muhammad which Jesus Christ had with regard to
Moses or Judaism.
Then it is also stated -and you may have read it and you
may understand R batter than I do --that Jesus Christ had made
some changes as you just--.-.
-- L ' L L ~ ~L~ o s e s2 (j,basis A i 1
a Prophet without(d d?.&~ut k i n g a Ghair Sharai Nabi
his own Law, he founded a new Ummot t o it a fact or not? He
foundcd a new religion i s it a fact or not? And if you draw the
parallel, does it not amount to the fact that Ahamadiyyat is a new
relgion?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The author of this book drew no
parallel, he refemd to the Quramic Verses.
k &L L;/J+~J(/~T,JJ~'~JL~N7 &C J&I) J,I
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. . . . . . ~ ~ L ~ + J L - . I ! :
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onehas......in J(-&il;lb~ GI u
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-(L

N*L ASSEMBLY OFPAKISTAN
P [zlrt Augun. IY74
dy indicated that one of the functions of
o is not the bearer of a new law. is to sift all
which may have crept into
li'ws System owing to lapse of time, and
discover and restore that
n lost is almost as great a task as to supply
that the promised
whom be peace) had a much higher mission
In order, however, to understand what tha~
it is necessary first to understand clearly our
regard to the Holy Quran......
Sahib, in his book or lecture draws ihe
got the same position with regard to
which Jesus Christ had with regard to
ed -and you may have read it and you
than I do t h a t Jesus Christ had made
t......
L~osesJ1@.9,basis A$d13i,i
Id>.&~ut being a Chair Sharai Nabi
a new Ummnt -to it a fact or not? He
i s it a fact or not? And if you draw the
unt to the fact that Ahamadiyyat is a new
mad: The author of this book drew no
Quramic Verses.
rJ'{/d7,Xy7Ju~ J &(J JI,,~
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t ~ ( l k&L1;.L c o j ~ l ~ J ' ~ a y &.&LL~AJ+;:
Rules of L r7/d% += & separation 8, ~ 9 1 - f $;$
,A;(;,&..~ ( , s ~ l + ~ f - i kd j ~~ f ir?ldi l p YJ,I conduct
......G6,
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d b ~a, &+ ,,I'+ 6air>>J ' { / ~ ~ ~ ~ - ~
onehas in 1d-&~;rL-:61g[passagedl ' U H ~&@jL
ai7Cf{/d~j& facts3 CJbJ t b t h a t case, one has to theorise.
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LALA yrcofi~/attention draw J'yr

- L 2 !
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-fi> impression

134U N A ~ O N A LASSEMBLY OF PAKISIAN ~ n r anug.. IUI+
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We m a t at 10.30
Mr. Chairman: Half Past Ten.
Mr. Yahya Bnkhtlar: A1 half Past Tcn wc will meet,
Mi- Nasir Ahmd: 11.00 -.+(K&
.....rL6~bK8Jfi,: ~ l ; % ( f ~ k
& Y L I ~ Y + = P - , ~ ~O &'ur,"bi~~"a,.~t:~~yt~;/-
-.+tttq
Mr. Chairman: The Delegation can come at 1l.M)?at ll.M).
Mr. Yahya Bakhtier: At 11.00.

CROSS-EXAMMATION OFTWE RADIAN1GROUP L?ZWCAT,TYIN 1341
(The Delegation lefi rk Chamber)
Mr. Chdnnan: 'Ihc honourable memberswill keep sitting.
Reporters can go;They can leavealso.
[The Special Commirtee of the Whole House subsequenrly
adjournedto meer or halfpnsr fen of fhe clock,in rhe morning.
on Sarurday, the 24thAugur, 1974.1

14m NATIOK.I. ASSEMBLY OF PAKJSTAN 124thAug.. I,,;,

CROSS-EXAMINATION O F T M QAD~ANJGRVVF'UEL~UAIION I W I
g.. 19.
4
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-Ivl&~ba, English........ "Review of Religions"
j& ~llti~~A,JJn~jt~dld,~,r:,,~&-~:ll;%zYk
C i ... . . + j ~ L < i ~ ~ +

1436 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124bAug.. 1Y7q
Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: 5 d,there is no need of it. 1
think we will finish in one hour's time.
Mr. Yahya Balrhtiar: Let us continue no further.
Mr. Chairman: $&,for finalizing it, then all [he
members must make up their mind for anything whatever. if
any umissions are left out.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That we will think now; and la mc
know if they want to ask any question.
Mr. Chairman. Yes. So, this break will be utilised for
that purpose.
Thank you very much.
And we meet at 7:30.
The Special Conminee adjournedjor Maghrib
prayers to meet at 7:30p.m.
The Special Commi'ttee re-assembledajier Maghrib
prayers, Mr. Chai- (SahibzadnFarooq Ali)
in the chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATIONOFTHEQADIANIGROUP DELEGATION 143 1

1684 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 1278 August 11x4
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CROSS.U[AMINATIONOF THE LAHOW GROUPDELEGA~ON 1685

1686 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN p71h ~ v g u r ~1974

CROSS-EXAMMATIONOF THE LAHORl GROUPDELEGATION 1687

1690 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [271)1 A u w l 19)4

CROSS-EXAMINA~ONOF THE LAHORI GROUPDELEGATION 1691

CROSS-EXAMINATIONOF THE LAHORI CROUPDELECATION 1693

I710 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (27th A v g v r ~1974
Ch. Jabangir Ali: Mr. Chairman. Sir, on a point of
explanation. Janab, the witness is here to answer the questions of
the Attorney-general and, if there is no question, then. I thiik, hc
need not explain any thing. Therefore, he should hear the question
of the honourable Attorney-general and then he shouId speak in
explanation or in reply of that question Sir. If there is no question,
then he is not supposed to give any speech or explanation.
Mr. Chairman: The Attorney-general will raise this
objection, if any.
d) d,,, J+iZ -&dzA& "renegade" /$

CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE lAHORl OROUPDELEOATION 1711
?lfHrrnegade- 4 0 , -If/floor emss &/d gfJ1 1 'Lb
J1J+=vfJfif(b-d&0~698,-d3J2H4~d1
-UYItJJ“t&~Jli'if':Lt b.-1,/1&/

1712 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 127th Augusl. I974

CROSS.EMMINATION OF THE lAHORI CiROUPDELEtATION 1713

CROSS-EXAMINA'IION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1763
Mr. Chairman: That, that's all. That's all.Next question.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtinr: Sir, I have got to ask him one more
~awalah(J19).But before that, I want this position to be clarified.
' j H d & Y ~ i I i + b f j / / d ' J 7 = ! + b u r % b i &
d
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Mr. Chairman: Next question.

CROSS EXAMINATION OF m LAHOW GROUP DELEGATION 1793
Its a<c-~dt&-+ V*/IL;;~IGJY~JLIj=:dSyt?
quation of interpretation.
Mr. Chairman: It's a question of interpretation, L/ yes.
Attorney-General,nextquestion.
Sardar Maula Bakhsh Swmro: (In-audiable)
Sardar Maola Bakhsh Soomro: (In-audiable) Sir,
because.................some reply should come from there that you

1796 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKrSTrW [ZRlh h e - ,197,

:/d+ b lj/+ conclu~ionkI '+&JI? d&
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t 7- f
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lml NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 128th *Ug.. 1974

C W > L eXAMINAIIUN OF TtE U H O R l GROUP D E L U I A m N 1801

~+,v$+~ALCJ~;,~$JL;CII:~(;%$~C?
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(Pause)
Cb. Jahangir Ali: Madam Chaiian, a point of information,
With your permission.
honourable.......Beg your pardon........,+&#:I;c~%&

Mr. Yahya Bakbtiar: Please iel me continue. Please let me
continue.
Madam Chalmn:
.-.. iij.J/& d J J I Y ~:36xb
the whole thing is dinturbed.Ut&, :~1;%3Y k
Madam Chairman: You write it and give it to the Attorney.
General.
Y 13LJIY/'J'u~ w..t/&lf= s,& :&xid ~ + ~
CUIJQ J% f j j J < J J , l ~+4,>,/&; d, J/= J

CROSS EXAMMATION OF THE W O R I GROIJP DEUGATION l 805

NAllONAL ASSEMBLY UF PAKISTAN [2aUI Aug.

CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE U H O m CROUP DELEGATION 1807

CROSS BXAMR1WION OF 'fH@LAIIORI CROUP DBLEGA'rlON 1813

1822 NATIONAL AYFEMBI.Y or PAKISTAN 128th k u ~ . .I V ~
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CROSS EXAMWATION OF THE U H O R l OIIOUP DELEGATION 1823

IMLU NATIONAL ASSEMBLY O F PAKISTAN IZ8lh Aug.. 1974

CROSS EXAMINATIONOF THE 1AHORI GROUP DEWOAT10N 1829

1832 NATIONALASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 1284 hug. 1971

Madam Chairman: No, this is, this is not the question. The
question is different.
explanation LLJ y f ~&IS AC-Cj- :I&- 3y k
T ~ AJe-iyi the question is ~ J ~ C J : & s y k
Madam Chairman: Nobody has asked the question about the
place of birth.

2160 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN UOth Aup.. 197q

QADLANI ISSUE-GBNWAL DISCUSSION LID.
l ~ ~ ~ ~ ( f / d ~ j J t f - u H & J d k f ~ & ~ i J , l ~v? -
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---- s.rrrunlu. ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13% Rug.. 194

2208 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN I30lh Aug .1174
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2210 NAnONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130UIAug., 1974

QADlANl ISSUE- GENERAL DISCUSSION 2219

2446 NAllOHALASSEMBLYOF PAKISTAN [)la Augun. 1974

m N A L ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131sl August. 1974
1

LJUa NAIIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13181 A u y l , 1974

2518 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PhKISTAR I3Lsl huyrl. LV74

Members: Monday
he Committee of the whole House is adjourned to meet at
5.30p.m. today.
The Special Committee ndjournedfor lunch Break to re-assemble
al X30p.m
TheSpecial Comminee re-assemble afler lunch break, Mr.
Chairman(Sahib& Farooq Ali) in the Chair.
Mr.Chairman :Yes,MaulanaAbdul Hakim.
-&glLJ. 0:&3,G?
(A1this stage Mr. Chairman Vacated the Choir which was
accupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Kharoon Abbasi)

QAMANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2545

2546 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31%lA u p l . 1976

L>>U NA.I'IWIU.ASSEMBLY OF PMSTAN 131rt Augurl, 1974

You should havecontacted me. -0%
MNAs should be given Jf = Jw if,ad,j,
preferencewhile going to attendthe session.
Maalnna Shah Ahmad NooraniSiddiqi: Yes, during the
session.
Mr. Chairman: That I will do.

QADIANI ISSUE.GENERAL DISCUSSION 2779
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IIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2rd S q . . 1974
J'I ~;lij;i&dl - iiir@~&j>,-lr 37
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UBLY OF PAKISTAN [olh SCPL..1'274 QADiANI ISSULGWERAL DlSEUSSlON 2941
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)n him) is the last 1 0 Lr(& L I ~ ,
QADlANl ISSULljENERAL OlSCUSSlON
Z'B3
We will take it up in thc evening. Those members who have
=cepted some invitation for going somewhere may go, if they like,
snd they can come to the House, if they like, because today is the
last evening and we have to finalize it. Under no circumstancescan
I say that.
6.i di.~lfCI+/i&J,~d& dIdI;;rfr~r;!yk
-&J?iJ,XJ~~IJ(C;.'J&c.jl
I am gratehl to you. This the last night and the last day.
- ..J/&L..&l.:..h,~hrf~k
& & A j d y i - G $ ~ ~ b ~ k e r : & ~ y ~7
-21)~tdf-d/lead riI<Lli.b2Jf
-d/;last dinnerld>/~ast night :?If&
($22)
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LY Of PAKISTAN 16th Sw..1974
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Pak 1974 National Assembly Proceedings

Pak 1974 National Assembly Proceedings

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Pak 1974 National Assembly Proceedings