The hidden job market

The Hidden Job Market:
Getting From Informational Interview to Job Offer
Sarah Stamboulie, Sr. Career Coach, Ivy Exec
Want more info? Email us at careersupport@ivyexec.com 1

About Sarah Stamboulie
• Sarah led Alumni Career Services at
Columbia Business School, overseeing
career programming and resources for
36,000 alumni throughout the world.
• Earlier in her career, Sarah served as the
head of Human Resources at both Morgan
Stanley and Cantor Fitzgerald. She holds
an MBA from Columbia Business School.
• Sarah has been featured in publications
such as Forbes and AM New York, and has
made television appearances on Fox 5
News and CBS Moneywatch

Participant Poll
1. What is your current employment situation?
a. Unemployed and fully focused on job search (or should be)
b. Working as well as job-hunting
c. Working and planning to job-hunt
2. How many informational interviews have you had in the last four months
with potential hiring managers*?
a. 0 - 2
b. 3 - 9
c. 10 or more
* Someone who would be your boss if he/she got an opening and hired you.

The Hidden Job Market, “Part II”
• Tonight we will cover what you do once you’ve gotten the
information interview scheduled.
• For Part I, how to get informational interviews: Ivy Exec members
can:
o get an overview of process from earlier webinars
o learn specific techniques and get tools and templates as part
of an individual coaching package.

Two Kinds of Informational Interviews
1. “Informational Interview” that’s really for information (with
someone at your level)
2. “Informational Interview” that you hope will lead to a job
interview – more of an exploratory meeting (with someone at the
level that could hire you if they had an opening)*
*this second type will be our main focus in this webinar

True Informational Interviews
• Have 3-6 purely informational interviews before going for a role
that you haven’t had before.
o “Working closely with” or “working across from” people doing
your target role is not enough!
• Use similar questions and techniques to those used at an
exploratory meeting.
• Places where you don’t want to work (i.e. due to geography) are
ideal for true informational meetings

Tips for Telephone Informational Interviews
• Take telephone interviews seriously and research the
interviewer the same way you would for an in-person meeting
• Use a landline if possible and eliminate all sources of
background noise, including other phones
• Don’t forget to make usual small talk
• Get the interviewer talking as much as possible
• Say no more than two sentences at a time before pausing
• Don’t rush off the phone – (you very much enjoyed the
conversation, etc.) and ask about next steps
• Send detailed follow-up letters

Moving on to Exploratory Meetings
You are ready to meet with hiring managers when:
1. You’ve done the same job as your target job at two or more
organizations just like your target organization (and some of the time
was in the last two years) OR
2. You’ve had 3-6 informational interviews with people doing the exact
role you are targeting at very similar organizations AND
You’ve been told that you “sound like an insider” or something similar.

Path from Exploratory Meeting to Job Offer
1. First meeting -- an exploratory meeting with hiring manager
1. Second meeting -- you are referred to (or ask for):
a. An exploratory meeting/job interview with hiring manager’s
boss, peer, or employee (or an internal recruiter) OR
b. A meeting with a hiring manager in another dept. or company,
in which case it’s like another first meeting
2. Subsequent meetings (in same group) -- like regular job interviews
but more leeway to influence the position

Continuous Research and Questions
• Research and ask questions before, during, and after your
meetings and interviews
• If you keep your target appropriately narrow, the research for each
organization will overlap and it will get easier
o Use the meeting to fill out the blanks
o Then do more research as part of your follow-up

1: Hiring Manager – Initial Research
Become an expert on the hiring manager:
• Study hiring manager’s LinkedIn profile in detail
• Google interviewer and read more than one page of results
• Think about what he or she is likely to like and not like about
you and your background (and ways to present yourself in a
better light)

2: Business Model
Learn everything about the business/funding model:
• What are its products or
services?
• What are its short- and long-term
goals?
• Who are its customers?
• What is the client life cycle?
• How and how much do they
pay?
• Is there another source of
income?
• What are the major
expenses?
• Who are the major and minor
competitors?
• What are the major risks?

3: Hiring Manager’s Role
Completely understand your desired boss’s role:
• Who is his/her boss(s) and other internal clients?
• What are his/her job responsibilities?
• What are his/her biggest challenges?
• What milestones would lead to dramatic success for him or
her?

4: Rest of Departments’ Roles
Work to so completely understand the department that you could
draw an org chart:
• Who else/what other areas does desired boss manage?
• What are each team member’s job responsibilities?
• Does team have the right mix of skills?
• What are the biggest challenges in the group?
• What is the workload like?

5: Your Desired Position/Work
Completely understand work done in your desired role:
• What are the exact day-to-day job responsibilities?
• What are the big cyclical projects?
• What performance milestones would lead to a big bonus or
promotion?
• What contact is there with other departments?
• What contact is there with external clients?

6: Continuously Learn About Them
• Before each meeting, write out all the questions you can’t
answer and bring them to the meeting
• After each meeting, write out the questions you still have
and bring them to the next meeting

Why such a focus on the work?
“People who want to change [jobs] are usually limited by failure
to understand the day-to-day tasks and functions of the new
[job] they want. The more you learn about the work you want to
do prior to applying for a job, the more attractive you will be to
the employer. Don’t wait for on-the-job training. Don’t wait for a
manager to figure out ‘how you would fit in.’ Make the
investment yourself, or don’t pursue the job.”
Nick Corcodilos, Ask the Headhunter

First Half of Initial Meeting With Hiring Manager
Your goals for the first half of the meeting:
1. To fully understand the hiring manager’s job
2. To understand his/her organization
3. To understand his/her unmet needs, if any
4. To determine if you could be a solution to those needs

Second Half of Initial Meeting – Not a Fit
If you are not a great fit for the hiring manager’s needs:
1. Refer him to information, another candidate or a consulting
firm
2. Describe the exact category (function, dept, companies,
geography) of manager you wish to meet
3. If they know anyone, ask for an introduction, and then email
some talking points for him or her to use

Second Half of Initial Meeting – Fit
If you could be a solution to the manager’s unmet needs:
1. Explore those needs further with the hiring manager and in
the process amplify them
2. Encourage the hiring manager to talk about his/her boss and
other team members and remember their names as you will
want to meet with them next
3. Ask for a meeting with boss or other decision maker, either on
the spot or as part of the follow-up/thank you process

Subsequent Meetings
• If referred to different group: handle like it’s a first informational
interview
• If referred to another member of group (hiring manager’s boss,
peer, employee, or an internal recruiter)
o Goals are to further understand and amplify the group’s
needs
o If meeting with an internal recruiter, to answer the questions
well

General Tips: Avoid These Topics
• How difficult the job search is
• What your perfect career would be
• Why you are “perfect” for the job or “uniquely” qualified for the job
• How their work is exactly like what you have done in the past
• The wrong decisions made by your previous
boss/company/colleagues

General Tips: Display Unwavering Positivity!
• Never say anything negative about anything, even the weather!
• Smile as much as possible
• When answering questions, begin each answer with a broad-based,
positive statement conveying positive emotion about the subject of
your answer
• Then bring it back to them and/or ask them a question

General Tips: Keep Focus on Them
• When interviewing with a hiring manager you should be
talking 1/3 – 1/2 of the time, mainly in the second half
• Never talk for more than a minute without pausing so they
can redirect

General Tips: Act Like an Employee
• Talk to them about their work, not about your career aspirations
• A good interview feels like an idea-generating, problem-solving
meeting between two professionals who aren’t working together
yet, but should be

General Tips: The Overall Vibe is Important
• With a potential manager who doesn’t have an
opening/headcount right now, ask yourself: “they can’t hire
anyone right now, but am I “feeling some love?”
• If you’re not sure, ask: If you were hiring right now, would you
hire someone like me?
• If you get feedback like “Well, no, because you don’t have
experience in the X or Y segment of what we do here,” don’t
generalize, but rather check if you get a similar answer
elsewhere (If so, you will need to adjust your targets or
position yourself better)

General Tips: Answering Tough Questions
For instance, if they ask “Tell Me About Yourself?”
• Try to postpone lengthy answers until you’ve gotten them talking
about their priorities
• Might begin answer with: “I’ve been very fortunate with my
career” and then tell a concise story
• Discuss your prior performance and successes that match the
company’s three key needs
• End with a reference to them or a question for them

General Tips: Try a Variety of Questions
• If you could change one thing about this department, what would
it be?
• What's one thing that’s key to your success that somebody from
outside the company wouldn't know?
• To help me understand your role, what would you need to
accomplish this year that would be considered “hitting it out of the
park?”
• If you could hire, what are 3 key things you’d like the new hire to
accomplish?

Final Stages: Increase Their Sense of Urgency
• What you want to do is actually amplify (increase) their
pain about their unmet needs
• In other words, delve into the problems you’ve learned
about to get them more unhappy with the status quo of
not having you on the team!

“Amplify the Pain” - Brutal Workload
If there is too much work, you might ask the manager:
• Is the heavy workload affecting the team’s satisfaction/morale?
• Are you concerned about losing some good employees?
• Are you able to meet all your goals or quotas?
• Might your lack of extra bandwidth prevent senior management
from being able to give you more responsibility and/or promote
you?

“Amplify the Pain” - Undone Projects
• Will the undone projects possibly cause problems with
management later on or at review time?
• Is there any legal or security risk that might result?

“Amplify the Pain” - Lost Opportunities
• How much revenue might [the opportunity they aren’t pursuing]
bring in?
• How much business do you think [x competitor] is getting from
pursuing [y opportunity]?

Follow-up – Bare Minimum
• E-mail within 2 - 48 hours to everyone you meet with, every time.
• Don’t just thank them –
o Write thoughtful letters, focusing on their interests and needs,
showing that you remember and take interest in their views
• Confirm any follow-up discussed (e.g., next meeting)

Follow-up – When You Really Want to Work There
Create a business plan to apply your skills to meet departmental and
company challenges:
• Define top-level problems and challenges the department faces
• Define the work: tasks and skills you will use, new skills you need
• Estimate profit you can bring to the bottom line (Profit may mean
higher revenues, lower costs, new efficiencies, increased customer
satisfaction, etc.)

Why the Business Plan Works
• Before you can legitimately ask for a job, you must assess
the needs of a company and plan how you will contribute to
its success
• By defining the work an employer needs done and showing
exactly how you will apply your skills, you can demonstrate
your value in the new work

IF YOU ONLY REMEMBER ONE THING:
“He who talks least wins”
(They will love you more for listening)

GET INDIVIDUAL HELP IF:
• You do not have a very clear job target
• You are not getting lots of meetings with hiring
managers
• You are not getting 2nd interviews
• You’ve had a lot of 2nd or greater interviews but
haven’t closed
• You aren’t positive that you negotiate well

Addendum
Getting Meetings:
Four Methods, All Challenging!

Formal Job Market - Job Postings
Steps to get a meeting with hiring manager via job posting:
1. Tailor your resume to fit the job description and write a cover letter showing
how you fit the job perfectly (focused on you rather than the hiring manager
and his/her group)
2. Be fortunate enough to apply to ad during the period when the recruiting team
is actually reading the resumes they receive
3. Have one of the 3-10 best-fitting resumes for the job, of all the tens or
hundreds of resumes read, such that the internal recruiter or assistant selects
you
4. Interview well enough with the internal recruiter that he/she passes you on to
the hiring manager

Formal Job Market - Recruiters
Steps to get a meeting with hiring manager via executive
search/headhunters
1. Land a meeting/all with external recruiter by having your
resume or LinkedIn profile found or by contacting recruiter
2. Be such an extremely close fit for one of their job
descriptions so that they recommend you to a hiring
manager
3. Be lucky enough that the hiring manager agrees you’re a
close fit so will meet with you

Hidden Job Market - Networking/Referral
Steps to get a meeting with hiring manager via
networking/referral
1. Compose a message about your interest in the hiring manager
and his/her work/dept/company (focused on hiring manager and
not you)
2. Persuade the mutual connection to use your message to contact
the hiring manager on your behalf OR
Contact the hiring manager yourself using the mutual
connection’s name
3. Be fortunate enough that their relationship is strong enough that
the person agrees to meet with you

Hidden Job Market - Direct Contact
Steps to get a meeting with hiring manager via direct
contact:
1. Compose a message about your interest in hiring manager
and his/her group (focused on hiring manager and not you)
2. Contact the hiring manager directly by email, phone, mail
or in person (i.e., at an event) and convince him or her to
meet with you

Ivy Exec – Job Search Coaching
Job Search Materials and Pitch Creation: A hands-on approach to crafting your
verbal and written value proposition for target roles.
Job Search Strategy Generation and Optimization: An expert's advice on any
bottlenecks in your job search strategy and taking your search to the next level.
Prep for Informational/Exploratory Meetings: Informational meeting prep &
practice using a customized approach leveraging draft e-mails & phone scripts.
Job Interview Preparation: Learn advanced interview techniques, practice tough
interview questions and prepare for 1st/2nd/3rd-round interviews and follow-ups.
Offer Negotiation Guidance: Practice step-by-step responses for each offer and
optimize your salary negotiations.

Want More Info?
Email us at careersupport@ivyexec.com to learn
more about working with Sarah and
Ivy Exec’s Career Coaching.

The hidden job market

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