Charlie Rose Interviews Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and COO Sheryl Sandberg
FULL TRANSCRIPTGuests:Mark ZuckerbergSheryl SandbergCharlie Rose:Tell me what the mission is today for Facebook. You’ve got 800 million and counting –Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:– users.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:It’s an extraordinary reach. Someone said it’s the most expansive human enabler ofcommunication, or an enabler of human communication there has ever been.Mark Zuckerberg:We’re trying.
Charlie Rose:You’re doing well at it too. So what’s the mission? Where is this thing going?Mark Zuckerberg:So the stated mission of the company is to make the world more open and connected, right? Andthe idea is that when you give people this ability to stay connected with all the people they careabout, and you make it so they can express new things about themselves or in communicationwith other people who they care about, then you just open up all these new possibilities. Youmake it so people can stay connected in ways that they couldn’t before. They can learn aboutnew things, whether it’s events that are happening in the world or ability to organize new thingsor learn about new products or new movies or music that they want to listen to. It opens up a lotof new possibility when you can keep all of these connections open to the people that you careabout. So obviously, a big part of our mission is just connecting all these different people in theworld. And one of the things that we are really proud of is that now 800 million people aroundthe world are using Facebook every month and perhaps even crazier — it’s mind-blowing frommy perspective. But more than half a billion people use Facebook every day. And I just thinkthat’s crazy.Charlie Rose:500 million plus people –Mark Zuckerberg:500 million people, yeah. That’s growing. And it’s growing every day. And if you just look back,you know, seven years from when we were getting started, I mean, there would have been noway that we would have thought –Sheryl Sandberg:500 million people in your dorm room.Mark Zuckerberg:The funny thing is that, you know, I used to talk to a lot of my friends when I was at — when Iwas in college. We used to go out to get pizza every night. And we used to talk about what wethought was going to happen in the world and on the Internet. And we thought that there wouldbe something like this, right, that, you know, it seemed pretty much inevitable that people wouldhave a way to connect and that they would be able to express all these things and that therewould be tools to make not just a social network, but that every product that you use is betteroff with your friends. We figured that there would be tools to do that. But the big surprise of thisthing is that we’ve played a big role in making that happen. And when we were in college, wejust figured, you know, who are we to do this, right? I mean, maybe we can create this cool littlecommunity for ourselves in college, but clearly it’s going to be some other company that does it.Charlie Rose:That’s what it is, a web within a web, is it not?Mark Zuckerberg:Well –
Charlie Rose:It’s a personalized web within the web.Mark Zuckerberg:I think it’s shaping — it’s shaping the broader web.Charlie Rose:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, right now, if you look back for the past five or seven years, the story of social networkinghas really been about getting these 800 million people connected, right, so that they can stayin touch with all these people who they care about, and getting them signed up for Facebookand all that. But if you look forward for the next five years, I think that the story that people aregoing to remember five years from now isn’t how this one site was built. It was how every singleservice that you use is now going to be better with your friends because they can tap into yourfriends, right, so whether it’s, you know, music services that we just announced this new producta little more than a month ago and since then some of the music services that are out there,Spotify has grown from a little more than three million users with Facebook to now more thanseven million users with Facebook. Another service called Mog [spelled phonetically] has grownfrom I think it’s a relatively small number of subscribers but it’s grown by four or five times inthe last month alone.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:And I think what that just shows is that all of these different products are better when you’redoing them with your friends. I mean think about it, do you want to go to the movies by yourselfor do you want to go to the movies with your friends, right? You want to go with your friends.Charlie Rose:Or do you want to know what your friends like rather than what a whole different[unintelligible] likes.Sheryl Sandberg:That’s right.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:It’s the wisdom of crowds to the wisdom of friends, you know.Charlie Rose:The wisdom of crowds means –Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.
Charlie Rose:– so that’s Google versus Facebook right there.Sheryl Sandberg:I don’t think it’s Google versus Facebook. I think it represents –Charlie Rose:The wisdom of crowds versus the wisdom of friends?Sheryl Sandberg:Well, I don’t think — I think the wisdom of crowds applies not just to Google but to a phase ofthe web –Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:– which is about information and about links. And it was a lot of wonderful things, mostly basedon anonymity and links between crowds.Charlie Rose:Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.Sheryl Sandberg:What does the crowd think? What is the best thing? Ours is just structured a totally differentplace so it is an evolution. The information web still exists, it’s still broadly used, but the socialweb didn’t exist before. The social web can’t exist until you are your real self online. I have to beme. You have to be Charlie Rose. He has to be Mark Zuckerberg. I have to be SherylSandberg. Once we are online as ourselves, connected to each other and our other friends,then you can have the evolution of what becomes the social web, not just on Facebook butthroughout.Charlie Rose:What is it about that people want to be on Facebook, they want to talk about themselves, what isthe sort of essence of that?Mark Zuckerberg:I think that people just have this core desire to express who they are. And I think it’s alwaysexisted.Charlie Rose:It’s as though –
Mark Zuckerberg:One of the things that I think makes us human. But yeah and obviously to know what’s goingon with your friends’ lives or not just your friends but people you care about. Right? You know,people who you’re interested in who aren’t your friends who are maybe on the periphery ofyour social circle, yeah, I think that those are all just core human needs and until Facebookthere wasn’t a great tool for doing that, but I think that a lot of that and building that up was thelast five years. I think the next five years is going to be about, okay now you’re connected to allthese people, now you can have a better music listening experience, you can have a better moviewatching experience, you can see what your friends are reading and learn what news you shouldread first, all of these things I think are going to get better. And that’s the thing that I’m mostexcited about for the next five years. And if we do well I think five years from now people arereally going to look back and say wow, over the last five years all these products have now gottenbetter because I’m not doing this stuff alone, I’m doing it with my friends.Sheryl Sandberg:And it’s personal, it’s not just that you’re bringing your friends with you and then it becomespersonal to you. So if you look at how people use most of the web, most products out there,even if you’re logged in, if I looked over your two shoulders, you see the same stuff because it’sbasically produced for the masses.Charlie Rose:Is the key to –Sheryl Sandberg:And ours is different.Charlie Rose:Is the key to the monitorization of the future the fact that advertising will believe this is the bestway to reach people, who are likely to buy their products?Sheryl Sandberg:Marketers have always wanted you know personal relationships with consumers or relationshipswhere consumers do two things, consumers buy their products and consumers tell their friendsto buy their — that they buy their products. Marketers have always been looking for that personwho’s not just going to buy but spread the word to their friends. What we do on Facebook is wenow enable marketers to find that and then if I do it on Facebook I’m sharing with an average of130 people. And so it becomes a word of mouth marketing at scale, so people can tell each otherwhat they like which is for marketers the thing they’ve been looking for I think for a long time.Charlie Rose:Is there a limit in terms of how many friends you should have?Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, I don’t think a limit in terms of should, they’re just –Sheryl Sandberg:It’s very personnel.
Mark Zuckerberg:– I think that humans have a capacity for different amounts of social relationships. And I thinkit varies from person to person but it’s also not about what you should do. You should use theproduct to keep in touch with whatever set of people you want to. And we try to build all kinds ofproducts that make it so you can stay in touch with small groups. All right, we have this groupsproduct that you know it’s I think it’s 300 or 400 million people who are using it on a monthlybasis now in order to communicate on Facebook with a subset of their friends, right, not theirwhole friends list, something that’s very widely used and a lot of people want to do that. Andthen we have functionality where people can publish things publicly, right? And some peoplehave tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or even in some cases millions of subscriberswho they can publish to and communicate with. So I mean people have a variety of differentcommunication needs and we strive to build products that help people set [spelled phonetically]all of those.Charlie Rose:What’s the valuation today of Facebook?Sheryl Sandberg:So we’re a private company so we don’t really have a valuation.Charlie Rose:So then why do you want to be a public company? Why do you even think about an IPO?Mark Zuckerberg:I actually think the biggest thing for us is that a big part of being a technology company isgetting the best engineers and designers and talented people around the world. And one of theways that you can do that is you compensate people with equity or options, right, so you getpeople who want to join the company, both for the mission, right, because they believe thatFacebook is doing this awesome thing and they want to be a part of connecting everyone in theworld, but also, if the company does well, then they get financially rewarded and can be set.And, you know, we’ve made this implicit promise to our investors and to our employees that bycompensating them with equity and by giving them equity, that at some point we’re going tomake that equity worth something publicly and liquidly, in a liquid way. Now, the promise isn’tthat we’re going to do it on any kind of short-term time horizon. The promise is that we’re goingto build this company so that it’s great over the long term, right. And that we’re always makingthese decisions for the long term, but at some point we’ll do that.Charlie Rose:And it will be a liquid dividend for your –Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, whether it’s a dividend or not, they’ll be able to trade their equity for money. And youknow, that’s something that we take seriously, as a responsibility of running the company. Andwe just care deeply about all the employees and the investors who have been there with us.Charlie Rose:Has the Groupon experience and has other things changed your sense of the timing of an IPO?Mark Zuckerberg:I don’t — I don’t think so.
Sheryl Sandberg:Not really.Mark Zuckerberg:No.Charlie Rose:You’ll go when what? When will you decide?Sheryl Sandberg:When we’re ready.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:No, but how — what will tell you it makes sense?Mark Zuckerberg:I don’t know. It’s a good question. Yeah.Charlie Rose:But you’ll just know?Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, yeah. It’s — honestly, it’s not something I spend a lot of time on a day-to-day basisthinking about it now.Charlie Rose:How do you measure the impact that we now believe social media play in the Arab Spring?Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, my personal take on this is that it’s — the social media’s role is maybe a bit overblown inthat. I mean, the way that I think about it is that if people want change, then they will find a wayto get that change, right. So, whatever technology they may or may not have used was neither anecessary nor sufficient case for getting to the outcome that they got to, but having people whowanted change was. So, I mean, I hope that Facebook and other Internet technologies were ableto help people, just like we hope that we help them communicate and organize and do whateverthey want to every single day, but I don’t pretend that Facebook didn’t exist, that this wouldn’teven be possible. Of course, it would have.Charlie Rose:Yeah, but it certainly accelerated it. And do you know of any effort in terms of wheregovernments, because of that, are trying to shut down Facebook in terms of access?Mark Zuckerberg:There are examples intermittently throughout the world all the time, but –Sheryl Sandberg:
And there are places we’re not available. Well, China’s obviously the big one. We’re not broadlyavailable.Charlie Rose:So how do you see that going into China, because — and if in fact it requires some sense ofcensorship, does that make it a “don’t go”?Sheryl Sandberg:You know, if your mission is to connect the entire world for all the reasons we’ve been talkingabout, you can’t connect the whole world and not China.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:That’s not something we’re working on or focused on right now because it’s not a decision wehave to make. So you are correct that when and if we go into China, we’ll have –Charlie Rose:A billion and a half people.Mark Zuckerberg:Well, we’ll issues. But since, for right now, we’re not available, and we don’t have an immediatepath to become available, it not — these are not policy decisions we have to make.Charlie Rose:So it’s not on the immediate horizon –Sheryl Sandberg:Not on the immediate horizon.Charlie Rose:– to go into China. And the reason is, though, is it because of what happened to Google?Sheryl Sandberg:So it’s not really our choice. It’s the government’s choice, you know. We’re not available becausethey’ve chosen to make us not available.Charlie Rose:Because they acted a certain way, you’ve chosen not to go there. Fair enough.Mark Zuckerberg:Yes.Sheryl Sandberg:No, it’s — yeah, yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah. And then at some point I think there would be some discussion around what it would taketo go there, and then we’d at that point have to figure out whether we were willing to do that.Sheryl Sandberg:
Exactly.Mark Zuckerberg:But honestly, the way that we look at it now is there’s so many other places in the world wherewe can connect more people more easily without having to face those hard questions that I thinka simple rule in business is, if you do the things that are easier first, then you can actually makea lot of progress. So then I assume, you know, we talk about running Facebook for the longterm and over the decades in which we hope to run and build Facebook to be a great company,I would imagine that this will be a question that we have to answer. But, I mean, right now,there’s still so much room for growth in a lot of other countries that it’s just not — it’s not the topthing that we’re worried about right now.Charlie Rose:To achieve your objectives that you want to do, the expansion, the –Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:– connections, the advertising revenue, how important and where do you put making sure thatFacebook gets more of the best engineers than anybody else regardless of where you have tosteal them?Sheryl Sandberg:First, second and third.Charlie Rose:That’s one, two, three, yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:But it’s really important.Sheryl Sandberg:Steal is not –Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:Attract. We attract them.Charlie Rose:If you go to Google and you ask about you, they say, “Steal.”Sheryl Sandberg:Attract. Attract.Charlie Rose:He brought you from Google, and you brought other people from Google.Sheryl Sandberg:He attracted me from Google. And I attracted — you know, I wanted to — but it’s —
[unintelligible] hiring engineers, so Google –Charlie Rose:Do you think Larry would believe it was attraction or theft?Sheryl Sandberg:Well, we’re not proper in the United States. And I’m fairly certain he would say, but you’regetting at a really important question.Charlie Rose:I am.Sheryl Sandberg:Which is engineering talent in this country.Charlie Rose:Yes.Sheryl Sandberg:Which there is not enough of.Mark Zuckerberg:Mm-hmm.Sheryl Sandberg:So we would hire lots more people. Google would hire lots more people. Every company weknow of has more desire for engineers –Charlie Rose:And more need for the talented engineers –Sheryl Sandberg:– than we have them.Charlie Rose:And you can’t find them.Sheryl Sandberg:Can’t find them.Charlie Rose:How much of that is because of the U.S. immigration policy?Sheryl Sandberg:Some.Mark Zuckerberg:I’m not sure. I think some of it is that. But a lot of it is just education. I mean, I think that there’snot enough supply of engineers to meet the demand. I mean, all of my friends who have youngersiblings who are going to college or high school, I mean, my number one piece of advice is youshould learn how to program. I mean, I think that in the future, all kinds of jobs, not even juststraight engineering jobs, but all kinds of different jobs are going to involve some element of
programming. And, I mean, I just look at, you know, when I was at school, and I rememberthe average salary that an engineer, one of my computer science classmates got. And it’s goneup at least 50 percent, maybe even doubled in the last seven years since I was at school. And Ithink the reason is that the economy is shifting, and there are more companies that are growingthat are these technology and software focused companies. And the skill set of being able towrite code is so highly in demand that — and the amount of engineers who are graduating isn’tgrowing at a fast enough rate that the people who are there are just in more demand, and theyget paid more.Sheryl Sandberg:And we have both an education problem and an immigration problem.Mark Zuckerberg:That’s true.Sheryl Sandberg:So it’s an education problem. We do not train — we don’t graduate enough kids from highschool. We don’t graduate enough kids from college in this country. And having these kind ofskills, we’re just absolutely far off. And also, the immigration policy you talked about is very real.So, you know, someone made a joke. We give a huge percentage of the spots in our engineeringundergrad and grad program to people from other countries, and then we kick them out. It’slike a company. We’d have Facebook training, and we train everyone, and then we’d say, but youcan’t work here. Go work for our competitor. That’s what we’re doing as a country. People havetalked about stapling.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:We should be stapling a visa.Charlie Rose:Stapling a green card to every diploma.Sheryl Sandberg:To every high-tech diploma because those people, not only do they not take jobs from otherAmericans. They create jobs for other Americans if we could keep them here and have themwork in our [unintelligible].Charlie Rose:I don’t understand why they that can’t be changed, other than it’s caught up in the overallimmigration politics.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.
Charlie Rose:Otherwise you would think it’s so obvious.Sheryl Sandberg:We’re not — we’re not experts on the political process.Mark Zuckerberg:It’s above my pay grade.Charlie Rose:But you’re having a different — you have to have, today, a company the size of Facebook, apresence in Washington. You have to have a sense of making sure that Washington knows whoyou are, and you know what they’re about. Do you know?Sheryl Sandberg:We do.Mark Zuckerberg:Yes.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah, no, we do.Mark Zuckerberg:It’s an important — it’s an important part, I mean, for these issues and a lot of others. But Ithink changing the stuff is just such a long process, right. If we were actually going to effect anychange in terms of getting more folks, each one be visas so we could not kick some of the bestengineers out to other countries, I don’t know, I mean, that’s years, right. I mean –Sheryl Sandberg:I mean, I think it’s a public education issue. I think, look, we have huge unemployment problem,and we have a growing crisis of people that not only want jobs and need jobs but deserve jobs.And it’s our job to — and so I think people don’t understand that these jobs do not take jobsfrom other Americans, but they create jobs around them. I mean, there are so many storieson this. We have one guy named Javier Oliveon who works here. He was one of the bestengineering students in Spain, nationwide, came to Stanford to get his MBA.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:Started here, works with us, and he created our internationalization tool. He runs ourinternationalization projects. We serve most of the world from the United States. It’s theopposite of what everyone thinks is happening. We’re not hiring out there to serve here. We’reserving — we entered the visa lottery for him, and we won. We had the jobs for him.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, yeah.
Sheryl Sandberg:If we had lost, we would have moved those jobs to wherever he could work. But because we gothim a visa, those jobs stayed here.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:But let me ask this question, which is at the heart of the debate that’s going on in America.Mark Zuckerberg:Mm-hmm.Charlie Rose:Which is, you know, the competition of America with the rest of the world.Mark Zuckerberg:Mm-hmm.Charlie Rose:Facebook came out of America. Apple came out of America. Microsoft came out of America.Google came out of America. Are those things going to be coming — those kinds of companies,the kind of company you created –Mark Zuckerberg:Mm-hmm.Charlie Rose:– more likely to come from China tomorrow?Mark Zuckerberg:Well, if you — I think that there’s actually two big ingredients, right. One of the big parts of theFacebook story was that — you know, I didn’t have to have some master plan at the beginning. Ididn’t have to have a lot of money. I literally coded Facebook in my dorm room and launched itfrom my dorm room. I rented a server for $85 a month, and I funded it by putting an ad on theside, and we’ve funded ever since by putting ads on the side.Charlie Rose:Right, right.Mark Zuckerberg:And but literally just starting small and growing it. So I think you need two things. One is theability to have engineers, right, and educate engineers who can just try out their own ideas.Charlie Rose:Right.Mark Zuckerberg:And the second is the ability to try out their own ideas, right, and the freedom to do that. Andthe U.S., I think historically has been extremely good at both. We’ve led in education, and we’ve
led in freedom and supporting people trying risky things.Sheryl Sandberg:Free market economics.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:And a sense of innovation and creativity and –Sheryl Sandberg:Public policy that supports entrepreneurship.Charlie Rose:Right, right.Sheryl Sandberg:In America, you can hire and fire.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:In America, you can start a company without going through endless bureaucratic red tape, eventhough it’s growing a bit.Charlie Rose:Yes.Sheryl Sandberg:Right? I mean, in America, we’ve had a country of entrepreneurs.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:We have set up our political system so you can start companies. You can close companies. Ithink people don’t always see the costs of increasing bureaucracy on entrepreneurship. Thebest people are going to go where they can get the best talent and where they have the bestenvironment to hire.Charlie Rose:Speaking of environment, how is your culture, say, different from the culture that you saw atGoogle? What is the Facebook culture?Sheryl Sandberg:
You know, when I think about this, if you compare Facebook and Google to, you know, mostof the world, right, to other companies in other industries, they’re actually, in some ways,incredibly similar. They are founder led.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:Silicon Valley based technology companies that have broad [unintelligible].Charlie Rose:Driven by engineering.Sheryl Sandberg:That’s right. Driven by engineering. They’re very similar.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:In the little Silicon Valley bubble in which we live, they’re truly different, totally different.Charlie Rose:How so?Sheryl Sandberg:Couple things. One is that, you know, Google is fundamentally –Charlie Rose:You’re interested yourself.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, I’m interested in hearing [unintelligible].Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah, but Google is fundamentally about, you know, algorithms and machine burning.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:And that — and that has been very important and continues to be very important. They’re doinga great job. We start from a totally different place. We start from an individual. Who are you?You know, what do you want to do? What do you want to share? You know, for us, the vision ofthe world is that we are like a hacking culture, and we mean that in the best of ways. We do notmean scary people breaking into your home or anything.Charlie Rose:Or espionage.Sheryl Sandberg:Or espionage. What we mean is we build things quickly and ship them. So we are not aiming for,
you know, perfection that comes over, you know, years, then we ship a product. We don’t workon things for years and then ship it. We work on things. We ship them. We get feedback from thepeople who use it. We get feedback from the world. We iterate, we iterate, we iterate. We havethese great signs around, you know, “Done is better than perfect.” “What would you do if youweren’t afraid?” we’re very much a culture.Charlie Rose:Because the notion of perfect is the enemy of good.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:And a culture of very, very rapid, very rapid innovation.Charlie Rose:Okay. You set out — did you have a belief in a certain culture when you were building thiscompany, that this is the kind of place I want to work? And this is how I want to –Sheryl Sandberg:Well, he’s never worked anywhere else.Charlie Rose:That’s true. So therefore how did you know what kind of culture you wanted?Mark Zuckerberg:Well, I think it sits [spelled phonetically] from the type of things that we want to build, right?So we’re trying to help people connect with all these different folks, right, and that map of allthose different connections needs to get built from the ground up, right? So it is fundamentallyabout giving people the tools that they need to share the things that they want with the peoplethat they want, make the connections that they want, and bootstrap from nothing to somethingthat’s broader. It is really different from a culture where you’re already taking the web andyour primary mission is okay I want to organize something that’s out there, we have this culturewhere we place a really big premium on moving quickly right and one of the big theories that Ihad about that was that all technology companies and probably all companies just slow downdramatically as they grow, but if we can focus at every step along the way and moving quickerthen maybe when we’re around 2,500 or 3,000 people now maybe we move as quickly as youknow a company that only has 500 people, right, because we’ve invested so much in buildingup the infrastructure and tools and also the culture that tells people to take risks and try thingsout. And I just think that, that ability to build stuff quicker will be a big advantage for us and willhelp us build better products over the long term.Charlie Rose:I want to talk about the future and competition. There are many people who look to the SiliconValley and they say there are four platforms out here. It’s Amazon, it’s Apple, it’s Google, it’sFacebook. And what we’re going to witness over the next 10 years is a flat-out war between thefour of you for the future. How do you see that?
Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, people like to talk about war. You know, there are a lot of ways in which the companiesactually work together. There are real competitions in there. But I don’t think that this is goingto be the type of situation where there’s one company that wins all the stuff.Charlie Rose:But you’re already getting in each other’s businesses. You know that. They have somethingcalled Google+.Mark Zuckerberg:Yes, and no. I mean, I think, you know, Google, I think, in some ways, is more competitive andcertainly is trying to build their own little version of Facebook. But you know, when Ilook at Amazon and Apple and I see companies who are extremely aligned with us, right. And wehave a lot of conversations with people at both companies just trying to figure out ways that wecan do more together, and there is just a lot of reception there. I mean, I can’t think of an Appleproduct or an Amazon product that I look at and it’s like, oh, that’s really –Charlie Rose:Yeah, but come on. Look at it. Apple just — Amazon just announced a new Kindle Fire, which is–Mark Zuckerberg:I know, and they’re tablet –Charlie Rose:– could deeply compete with the iPad.Mark Zuckerberg:And that’s cool. I mean, we don’t have tablets, though, so we could care less about that.Charlie Rose:There are no borders out here in terms of what you might want to do. Come on, Sheryl.Sheryl Sandberg:There are no borders for us, certainly, right, because we want everything to be social, and wewant — prefer everything to be social with Facebook. And so, for us, our goal is really to workacross. We want to work on every tablet.Mark Zuckerberg:Right, this is the important stuff.Sheryl Sandberg:And Apple and Amazon, you know, God bless them. They can compete and buildlots of different tablets.Charlie Rose:You found a device, and we want to be seen on it.Sheryl Sandberg:
That’s right.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, yeah. So if you’re Amazon, and one of the big strategies is sell Kindles so you can sell morethings, right. If you’re Apple, a big part of your strategy is sell devices because that’s how youmake money. If you’re Google, they want to get Android as widely adopted as possible, and ourgoal –Charlie Rose:Therefore, they go out and they buy Motorola.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, but our goal, I mean –[talking simultaneously]Charlie Rose:And there are rumors that Microsoft may buy Nokia or something like that.Mark Zuckerberg:Sure, but our goal is not to build a platform; it’s to be across all of them. I mean,because our mission is to help people connect and stay connected with people nomatter what devices they’re on, we want to be in all these places.Charlie Rose:You — go ahead — you — go ahead.Sheryl Sandberg:This is also really — sorry — but this is really important. It actually gets back tothe differences before retirement with Google and Facebook. There’s one thingthat I think is most important that’s to Facebook, which is that we are focused ondoing one thing incredibly well. We only really want to do one thing.Charlie Rose:Social media.Sheryl Sandberg:Connect the world.Charlie Rose:Connect the world. Okay, fair enough.Sheryl Sandberg:And be the social technology people use. I think if you look at other companies,all of these companies are doing lots of different things, but we are still, as wegrow, doing exactly one thing.Charlie Rose:But here’s the thing. There’s nothing you think you can’t do. I mean, you look at –Mark Zuckerberg:
[unintelligible] were going to go in a different direction with this, because, Imean, it is true, there’s a corollary to what you just said, right. So, it is true weare focused on this one thing, but because there’s all this other stuff out there,that means that Facebook has evolved as a partnership company.Sheryl Sandberg:That’s right.Mark Zuckerberg:– which is very different from the way that Apple or Google or Amazon orMicrosoft or any of these folks are, right. I mean, if Apple or Google want to builda product, they typically go build it, right. Whereas if Facebook wants to makeit so that, you know, we want to help rethink the way that people listen to musicor watch movies. What do we do? We build a platform on top of which peopleconnect, and we enable all these different companies, dozens of companies toplug in, companies that are big companies, companies that are small companies,things that don’t even exist. It’s a really different approach than what all theseother companies have.Charlie Rose:But the end result is you want to provide a means for people to look at movies, to listen to music,to do all kinds of things.Mark Zuckerberg:But they’re all [unintelligible] other people’s services.Sheryl Sandberg:We don’t want to provide the means. This is the thing. Our one thing that is thebasis of our partnership strategy and our partnership approach, we build thesocial technology. They provide the music.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, exactly.Sheryl Sandberg:They — we don’t — we don’t want people to use Facebook to watch movies or read newspaperarticles.Charlie Rose:You want to do what? You want to –Sheryl Sandberg:We want to provide the social technology. So we want them to listen to music on the iPhoneor through Apple or through Spotify, anything they want. We want them to watch moviesanywhere.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:
We just want Facebook to be how they share wherever they are. And so we dothis one thing which is — underlies this huge partnership strategy, and it doesmake us, I think, pretty different than many of the other companies you’retalking about.Mark Zuckerberg:Just take the movies thing as an example.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, the biggest movie company –Sheryl Sandberg:We don’t care where you watch.Mark Zuckerberg:– is that — our partners right now and are building on top of our platform are Netflix and Hulu.Charlie Rose:Right.Mark Zuckerberg:Right? And I guess Hulu’s more on the TV side. But people can share all kinds of videos thatthey’re watching. You can see the top things that your friends are watching. So I go to yourprofile or your timeline and if you want, you can have a box up there that’s what are the TVshows that you watch the most? And I can go ahead and click on it, and it’ll take me right tothe Hulu app, and I can start watching that. That, I think is really powerful. The piece thatFacebook is doing is saying, okay, we’re friends, right, and allowing you toshare that — I want to express to people what are the TV shows that I like. Andnow Facebook is giving me a place to go see what you want to watch if you wantto share that. But then from there, you click on it, and it takes you to Hulu or takes you toNetflix. Or if you want to listen to music, it takes you to Spotify, or it takes you to one of theseother companies.Charlie Rose:But is central your sense that the future belongs to social networking, that that’s the future?Mark Zuckerberg:I think that a big piece of it is –Charlie Rose:Finish that.Mark Zuckerberg:It’s not everything.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.
Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, if you think about it, in your own life, right, with all the things that youdo, how much — how many of the things that you do are better when you’redoing them with other people or with your friends? Probably a lot. But noteverything, but a big piece of that.Charlie Rose:Almost everything.Mark Zuckerberg:And I think that we can help power that. But for all of those things, then, youknow, some of them we’re going to build ourselves, right, so the core experiencewhere I can go learn stuff about you, right, based on what you’ve shared, we’regoing to build that piece, right. The core piece where you can see all of the stuffthat’s going on with all of your friends that they wanted to share. We’ll build thatpiece.Charlie Rose:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:But the piece where, you know, you go to try to consume a specific type of content, right, I wantto see what news my friends are reading. There will be newspapers.Sheryl Sandberg:This is why this matters, right, because we can win along with lots of other people winning.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:And that is totally different, I think about the strategy of what we’re trying to build.Charlie Rose:What don’t you want — go ahead, finish.Sheryl Sandberg:So we can — if — if news becomes more social, that’s great for Facebook if it happens with ourtechnology. But –Charlie Rose:Because you’re the great connector of the world.Sheryl Sandberg:– it is great for the Washington Post and the New York Times and the Huffington Post andanyone who chooses to use our technology which we make available to every news service outthere. We’re not trying to replace everyone or do everything. We want to enable everyone —everything to be more social for everyone else.
Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, I think — it’s actually — it’s a lot more extreme even than you’re saying. I mean, take —and we’ve talking a lot here about –Sheryl Sandberg:It’s always more extreme.Mark Zuckerberg:One thing that we haven’t talked about at all here are games, right. I mean,games is probably the biggest industry today that has gone really social, right. Imean, the incumbent game companies are really being disrupted and are quicklytrying to become social. And you have companies like Zynga.Charlie Rose:Yeah, well –Mark Zuckerberg:– which are going public soon and will be valued at most likely at multibillion dollar valuations.And basically all of their games are built on top of Facebook for the most part.Charlie Rose:Exactly.Mark Zuckerberg:And a huge number of other companies as well. So I mean, does Facebook buildany games? No. We build no games.Charlie Rose:You say that today –Mark Zuckerberg:No, we –Charlie Rose:You say that today.Mark Zuckerberg:Actually –Sheryl Sandberg:I’m pretty sure we’re not going to –Mark Zuckerberg:No, I’m pretty sure we’re not going to build any games.Sheryl Sandberg:[unintelligible] we’re not going to build games.Mark Zuckerberg:We build –Charlie Rose:
Well, why are you so sure?Mark Zuckerberg:Here’s why. Here’s why.Charlie Rose:I’m only saying this because people thought that Steve Jobs –Mark Zuckerberg:I’ll tell you why.Charlie Rose:– would never go into retail, and he did.Mark Zuckerberg:I’ll tell you why.Charlie Rose:All right.Mark Zuckerberg:Because building games is really hard. And so that’s –Charlie Rose:So that’s the only reason.Mark Zuckerberg:And we’re doing — what we’re doing is really hard. And we think that we’rebetter off focusing on this piece. I think that building a great game service isreally hard. Building a great music service is really hard. Building a great movieservice is really hard. And we just believe that an independent entrepreneur willalways beat a division of a big company which is why we think that the strategyof these other companies trying to do everything themselves will inevitably beless successful than an ecosystem where you have someone like Facebook tryingto build the core product to help people connect and then independent greatcompanies that are only focused on one or two things doing those things reallywell.Sheryl Sandberg:And those companies can’t — don’t have the discipline to do it, right. They get big, and everyonewants to do everything, and they just say yes. And then they don’t do everything well.Charlie Rose:At this point, enter this name, Steve Jobs. I’ve had an experience with him onceat TIME 100. And he walked over to say hello, and there was — I was talking toa young entrepreneur who was obviously in awe and in — you know, thrilled. Itwas the greatest moment of his life. There was Steve.Mark Zuckerberg:Mm-hmm.Charlie Rose:
And I said to Steve, “What should he do?” and Steve said to me, “He should focus on hisknitting. Not try to do everything. Do one thing well.”Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:Did you ever have that conversation with Steve Jobs?Mark Zuckerberg:I don’t know.Sheryl Sandberg:[unintelligible] conversations with –Mark Zuckerberg:Well, you know, one of the funny things is when you agree with someone, you tend not to talkabout it for too long because you just take it as an assumption. So I mean, I think in some of ourconversations it might have been like, yeah, that thing, okay, now let’s go talk about somethingelse.Charlie Rose:So what were the conversations like? I mean, here is someone who’s –Mark Zuckerberg:Oh, I don’t know. I mean, he — he’s amazing. He was amazing. I mean, he — I hada lot of questions for him on –Charlie Rose:Like what?Mark Zuckerberg:How to build a team around you, right, that’s focused on building as high qualityand good things as you are. How to keep an organization focused, right, whenI think the tendency for larger companies is to try to fray and go into all thesedifferent areas. Yeah, I mean a lot just on the aesthetics and kind of mission orientation ofcompanies. I mean, Apple is a company that is so focused on just building products that — fortheir customers and their users. And — and that’s like — it’s such a deep part of their mission isbuild these beautiful products for their users. And I think we connected a lot on this levelof, okay, Facebook has this mission that’s really more than just trying to build acompany, right, that has a market cap or a value. It’s like we’re trying to do thisthing in the world. And I don’t know, a lot of it I just think we connected on thatlevel.Charlie Rose:Did he ever suggest that Apple might buy Facebook?Mark Zuckerberg:No. I don’t think it ever really got there. I mean, nor would I have wanted to sell it. He — and Iremember talking to him –Sheryl Sandberg:
And I think he would have known that.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah. And I — I mean –Sheryl Sandberg:I talked to you about this and like I think –Charlie Rose:About what, about the buying –Sheryl Sandberg:I think he understood Mark enough to know that Mark didn’t want to sell hiscompany because he didn’t want to sell –Charlie Rose:Did he raise the question with you?Sheryl Sandberg:No, but he — I think he –Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:– having talked to him about Facebook and Apple, I — he didn’t raise it, but I don’t think hewould have because he would have understood that about Mark.Mark Zuckerberg:Actually, I mean, I think there was –Sheryl Sandberg:He’s just like him. He wouldn’t have wanted to sell his company.[talking simultaneously]Charlie Rose:Go ahead.Mark Zuckerberg:There is this quote I think in the book that just came out about him where, I mean, it’s –Charlie Rose:The Walter Isaacson book.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah. I mean, it’s — and I took it as this amazing compliment. He said, I admireFacebook because you guys don’t want to sell out.Charlie Rose:Right.Mark Zuckerberg:Right, so I actually think that –
Sheryl Sandberg:And I don’t think he would have asked.Mark Zuckerberg:I know that’s one of the ways in which — in which we saw eye to eye on kind of what we weretrying to do in the world. And I just think because of that, it probably –Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:– just wouldn’t have come up.15:17:31Charlie Rose:You’ve had — I mean, Microsoft owns a piece of Facebook.Mark Zuckerberg:Mm-hmm.Charlie Rose:You’ve had an opportunity I’m sure to sell. You will never sell. Is that fair? Is that a fair –Sheryl Sandberg:No one even asks any more.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:It’s too big. Nobody can afford you anymore.Sheryl Sandberg:Exactly.Charlie Rose:Is that the essential idea?Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:But — and you, I mean, can you imagine wanting to buy somebody?Mark Zuckerberg:We buy companies all the time.Charlie Rose:I know, but they’re small, small companies.Mark Zuckerberg:
Yeah.Charlie Rose:And they’re companies driven by certain expertise.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, you know –Charlie Rose:– or certain software.Mark Zuckerberg:I don’t think that buying a company or selling a company is necessarily a good or a bad thing. Ijust think that the key thing that you need to realize is that when you go through a transactionlike that, what you are changes, right. And if you’re now owned by someone else, then your goalsare going to either quickly or over time become their goals, right? So there are actually I thinka lot of compelling reasons why someone would sell a company and why it would advance theirmission. I mean, I think, for example, YouTube might have been a good version of this rightwhere they had these huge expenses, and Google funded it and has grown it, and it’s grown into,I think, a really good product, maybe beyond what the founders had even hoped.Charlie Rose:And maybe if Microsoft were able to buy Yahoo!, it might have worked.Mark Zuckerberg:Maybe. It’s hard to tell. But I mean, a lot of the acquisitions that we make atFacebook are, you know, we look at great entrepreneurs out there who arebuilding things. And often, the acquisitions aren’t even to really buy theircompany or what they’re doing. It’s to get the really talented people who are outthere trying to build something cool and say, you know, if you joined Facebook,you could work on this completely different problem. Isn’t this a more importantproblem? And for the people who answer that question yes, they join. And that’show we’ve had the most success so far.Charlie Rose:All right. Let me talk about what you know about all of us, it is this notion that constantly comesup, is there anything you do not want to know about –Mark Zuckerberg:I just don’t even think we think about it that way.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, it’s –Charlie Rose:Okay, well, help me think about it in the right way, how you think about it, because I mean, likethe “like” button, you know, it’s a powerful tool.
Mark Zuckerberg:It’s not for us though, right, I mean, it’s for –Charlie Rose:It’s for advertisers.Mark Zuckerberg:– people to express — no, not for advertisers.Sheryl Sandberg:Other people.[talking simultaneously]Mark Zuckerberg:This is a core part of what makes Facebook, Facebook, is that we really arefocused on users first and for the long term, right? And we believe that if we builda product where people can connect and can express all the things that they wantabout themselves, that over the very long term we’ll have a lot of people doingthat because that’s a core human thing where people want to do that, and they’llbe very active, and we’ll have opportunities to sell advertising and do all thesethings and build a great business but none of that is the leading thing that we’repushing for. What we’re pushing for is the mission, we think that if we succeed onthat then we’re going to build a great business. Now, if — I just think that there’sthis core part of people where they want to express things about themselves. Sothe question isn’t what do we want to know about people, it’s what do peoplewant to tell about themselves. Right?And we try to answer that question continuously, you know, what do peoplewant to tell about themselves that they can’t tell now? Right, we think this yearthat one of the big things that people want to express that they haven’t had a wayto are what are my favorite songs and different media that I consume. And youknow there’s always — there’s been a way for you to type in, okay, my favoriteband is Green Day or the Beatles or whatever, but there hasn’t been a way to sayokay out of all the songs that I’ve listened to in the last month, here are the topones, but in the month or so since we’ve launched that functionality on top ofplatform, people have already chosen to publish more than a billion songs thatthey’ve listened to into Facebook through partners. And it’s amazing so and it’sbecause they want to do that.Sheryl Sandberg:And it’s really important to understand that we don’t want people to expressanything, we want them to have an opportunity to express what they want toexpress to the people they want to express it, so privacy has been very core tothis service. I think it’s actually one of the big innovations Facebook had, if youthink about online services before Facebook, they’re basically open or closed,you know, something you publish on a blog, the blog is open, you’re corporateemail [spelled phonetically] closed. Facebook was the first place that one of thecore innovations Mark had was actually around privacy. I can take this photo,I can take a photo of the three of us here, I can share it just with my parents,I can share it just with my little group of my high school girlfriends, or I canshare it with all of Facebook or the whole world, and every single time you sharesomething on Facebook you have an opportunity to choose who you’re sharing itwith.
Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:And that commitment to our users, that their trust is sacred, that privacy is the most importantthing we do, is something that’s been here throughout, and it’s really important for people.Charlie Rose:But having said all of that, when you’ve gotten in trouble it’s bulk [spelled phonetically] on theissue of privacy.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, I agree, and I mean it’s something that — I think that just speaks to how important andfundamental of an issue that is.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:All right, when I was talking a minute ago about what are the ways that people want to sharethat we can make happen this year, one of the core things that flows through all of this is that I’dsay probably this point still the vast majority of people don’t want to share everything, or don’twant to share anything with everyone publicly. But if you give people tools so that they can sharewith just their friends, or just one group of friends, or just their family, then they’ll do that.Charlie Rose:Okay, but are they always the wisest people to know what they want to share and how sharingmight be bound.Mark Zuckerberg:I believe that they are. I mean, I think that –Charlie Rose:You trust the judgment of most people to know who they want to share with.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, and I think that people go through a learning process too where I mean maybe when socialnetworks were first ramping up on the web some people shared a few things too broadly but Ithink that, that’s part of the reason why I think Facebook has grown is I think Facebook largelyexisted after that the friends [spelled phonetically] during the MySpace phase of the socialweb and at a point where people were already sophisticated enough to realize hey, you know, Iwant to share different things with different people, I’m going to use these privacy control thatFacebook has given me, that Facebook is really the first company that has built these controls sothat you can share things with just your friends or I can share vacation photos from my familyvacation with just my family if I want, or I can do all these different things, and I think that,that’s one of the big enablers on the service.
Sheryl Sandberg:And it’s something we continue to evolve so control is what matters here. People want control.They want to share what they want with who they want and as long as, as we will allow [spelledphonetically] products, we continue on the control, so for example we are launching, we’vealready unveiled, Mark unveiled a number of weeks ago in the next bunch of weekswe’re making our timeline, our new profile available to everyone.Charlie Rose:What is that?Sheryl Sandberg:It’s — so right now you have a profile, and the timeline is a more visualrepresentation of who you are and includes further back in your life, not justwhen Facebook started, but further back. So I’ve actually spent the last weekuploading childhood pictures. But here’s what matters. I can go back and changethe privacy controls on something I’ve already — so if I go back now and buildmy timeline and I say, “Oh, I shared that with this group of people. I actuallywant to share that with more people or fewer,” we are giving that control. Soit matters as people learn is that they have the controls they need to share withwho they want. And that’s something we are continuing to work on.Charlie Rose:There are also these stories that you read about in terms of if somebody has something on theirFacebook page that somebody got access to and therefore they didn’t get hired, somethingdid not happen that might have happened because they were silly enough or somehow to putsomething on their Facebook page that rebounded to their detriment.Sheryl Sandberg:And people make cell phone calls that rebound to their detriment.Charlie Rose:Or e-mails as well. I mean –Sheryl Sandberg:E-mail as well, or they put something down on their resume. It’s not that people don’t makemistakes, but the information you put on Facebook is only available to employers if you’veshared it to those people, if you’ve shared it openly.Charlie Rose:But once it’s there –Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, if you choose to –Sheryl Sandberg:And there’s a responsibility individuals have. Certainly we want to teach people, and peoplewant to teach people to share the things they want to share. I think that if you look at thehistory of technology, what you always find is that every new technology brings unbelievable
opportunities for advancement and living our lives differently, and it’s also scary. I mean, oneof my favorite stories on this is caller ID. When caller ID was rolled out, and I’m actually oldenough to remember this, unlike my friend over here –Mark Zuckerberg:No, I had caller ID.Sheryl Sandberg:Do you remember before caller ID?Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, yeah, yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:Oh, oh, that’s good. Normally, normally –Charlie Rose:But you don’t remember before caller ID. That’s the point –Sheryl Sandberg:No, he says he does.Charlie Rose:Oh, you do?Mark Zuckerberg:I remember before everyone had it. And maybe it was –Charlie Rose:Oh.Sheryl Sandberg:All right, that kind of sort of counts, but when caller ID came out, there was abig privacy uproar. People thought it was a violation of the caller’s privacy thatthey’re number would show. There was talk of legislation. There was talk ofstates banning it.Charlie Rose:There was talk of a way you could avoid it being seen and all that.Sheryl Sandberg:Ways you could avoid it being seen because it was considered — I don’t knowanyone who answers a call that doesn’t have caller ID now because it’s notconsidered a violation of that privacy. It’s considered my right to know who’scalling me. Otherwise, why would I answer? And so, yes, when you are an earlyleader like we are in technology, there is always concern, and you’re going tocontinue to hear concerns.Charlie Rose:You know why I have caller ID? Because when I’m calling people, I want them to know it’s me
calling, other than “unknown” because I feel that they’re more likely to answer my call if theyknow it’s me.Sheryl Sandberg:But that is something that caller ID is widely accepted. It was a privacy uproar at its time. And so–Charlie Rose:Okay, so, but tell me where the boundaries are about privacy, that you thinkthat we ought to take note of at this moment. Because the privacy question mostfrequently comes back to Facebook.Mark Zuckerberg:Well, here’s the way that I think about it. I think it’s really about control, right.People have things that they want to share with maybe a single person or a smallgroup, and they have things that they’d want to share more broadly. And thereal question for me is do people have the tools that they need in order to makethose decisions well. And I think that it’s actually really important that Facebookcontinually makes it easier and easier to make those decisions, because thedemographics of people who are using Facebook are changing as well, right. Imean, we started off with these people in college, right, who use computers everysingle day. And now, you know, we’re up to 800 million-plus users. We havepeople using the site who it’s one of the only things that they do on a computer,and maybe they’re not computer savvy, right, or they don’t have — they don’tspend a lot of time trying to figure out privacy control. So what we’ve donein the last year is we’ve made it so that any time you to share anything, theprivacy control is now right there, and it says exactly who you’re going to sharewith. If you’re going to be sharing publicly, there’s a little globe and it says theword “public.” And if you’re going to be sharing with friends, there’s this icon ofa few people and it says the word “friends,” and you can just click and you canchange that really easily every time you post anything.And back where we were getting started seven years ago, I don’t know if thatwas necessary because the college students and early adopter-type folks just hadthis intuitive understanding of how the service worked. But now, I just think thatthe boundaries, it’s getting more and more important to be increasingly clearand give people those controls. And that’s what we’re trying to do. And I don’tthink we’re at the end. I think we’re going to need to keep on making it easierand easier, but that’s our mission, right. I mean, we have to do that because now,if people feel like they don’t have control over how they’re sharing things, thenwe’re failing them. I mean, we’re making it so they can share a lot of the stuff thatthey want to.Sheryl Sandberg:I think it is the case that people talk about Facebook and privacy a lot, and I think it willcontinue to be the case, but it’s because we lead in this area, meaning that we are the mostprivacy-focused place for anyone to share anything.
Charlie Rose:Well, no, it’s because you have more information about everybody than anybody else.Mark Zuckerberg:This is an important point though.Sheryl Sandberg:Well, Elliot Trig [spelled phonetically] has this great — Elliot Trig has this great story he tells.He works [unintelligible] company. He says there’s this old joke, where, you know, the manloses his keys and he’s looking for the keys under the lamppost, and someone says, “Well, whyare you looking under the light? They’re clearly not here.” He’s like, “Well, this is the only reasonI can — only place I can see. If I go over there.” We are focused on privacy. We care the mostabout privacy. Our business model is by far the most privacy friendly to consumers. And wetalk about it the most. And I think we’re the light. We’re the light. We are the transparent placewhere people can understand and I think you will continue to see conversations about Facebookin privacy. But it’s because we lead and we care so much about it.Mark Zuckerberg:I think it’s worth explaining this a bit more, though.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah.Mark Zuckerberg:I mean, when you’re saying that we’re the light, it’s because, sure, people have alot of information on Facebook. But that’s information that they’ve put into theservice.Sheryl Sandberg:Exactly.Mark Zuckerberg:If you look at companies, whether it’s Google or Yahoo! or Microsoft, right,that have search engines and ad networks, they also have a huge amount ofinformation about you. It’s just that they’re collecting that about you behindyour back, really. And it’s like you’re going — you’re going around the web, andthey have cookies, and they’re collecting this huge amount of information aboutwho you are. But you never know that. And I mean, some of these companiesmake an effort to give you a product where –Charlie Rose:But do you find that a bit scary?Mark Zuckerberg:Well, I just — I think it’s — it’s just less transparent –Sheryl Sandberg:There’s no light.Mark Zuckerberg:– than what’s happening on Facebook.
Sheryl Sandberg:It’s the dark.Mark Zuckerberg:So on Facebook someone wants to –Sheryl Sandberg:Contact.Mark Zuckerberg:– target say, okay, I want to — I want to advertise — like I’m a band, and I’mcoming to the Bay Area, I’m going to advertise to people who like a band, andthey’re going to — those people only fit if they’ve put in that they like that band.Charlie Rose:Right.Mark Zuckerberg:On those other services, you can still do that kind of advertising, but you’re goingto find people based on what they’ve browsed around on the web and the peoplehave little or no control over the information that a company like Google orYahoo! or Microsoft has about you. And, I don’t know, I think that some of thosecompanies have made an effort to give people to give a payage that they can gosee all the information that the company has about them. But, I mean, very fewpeople are actually going to go do that. So in reality I think that these companieswith those big ad networks are basically getting away with collecting hugeamounts of information, likely way more information than people are sharingon Facebook about themselves. But I think because people can see how muchinformation people are sharing about themselves on Facebook –Sheryl Sandberg:Yes.Mark Zuckerberg:– it appears scarier. But in reality, you have control over every single thing thatyou’ve shared on Facebook. You can take it down and — [unintelligible].Charlie Rose:If you take it down, you say look, enough, gone.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:And what else? What happens if you die? What happens then?Sheryl Sandberg:If you let us know, we memorialize the page.Mark Zuckerberg:
Yeah, yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:If a family member lets us know that someone has deceased –Charlie Rose:And so anybody who wants to –Mark Zuckerberg:– we’ll memorialize the page.Charlie Rose:– take them down and erase forever.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah, you can erase forever.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:It’s not perfect in the sense of if I put something up, I can take it down, it’s gone.Charlie Rose:But –Sheryl Sandberg:If I’ve shared it and someone’s reshared it –Charlie Rose:Right. Exactly.Sheryl Sandberg:– won’t go down. It’s out there. And that’s one of the things. But it really is thepoint that the only thing Facebook knows about you are things you’ve done andtold us. It is self-reported.Charlie Rose:But the genius of Facebook is that it has the possibility of sending it out like nothing else to moreplaces.Sheryl Sandberg:We never — Facebook never sends any information out about anyone.Charlie Rose:I understand that. But it goes out because Facebook has a system that allows that.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah, because Facebook –Sheryl Sandberg:Yes.
Mark Zuckerberg:– allows people –Sheryl Sandberg:Allows other people to share.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:Exactly right.Sheryl Sandberg:That’s right.Charlie Rose:Right, right.Mark Zuckerberg:Yeah.Charlie Rose:Let me talk two things about, one you, the empowerment of women and then asense of who you represent. This is a place that you are — you stand out becauseyou and Marissa and a few others, you know, is — is technology a place thatwomen can find the kind of opportunity that you want them to find? Does it needmentoring and all kinds of other things that people like Sheryl Sandberg candeliver?Sheryl Sandberg:Look, I think the issue of women in the economy and the country is a huge one.It’s something that I care passionately about and Mark cares passionately aboutand has helped me too. You know, we have basically a stalled revolution forwomen. You know, women became 50 percent of the college graduates in thiscountry in 1981 and then made steady progress, more college degrees, moregraduate degrees, more manager positions. Over — and we’re still makingprogress. Over the last ten years, women have stalled out at the top. Women incorporate America have 15 to 16 percent of the board seats and of the kind of CEO[spelled phonetically], the high-level jobs, and that has not moved in ten years.Charlie Rose:Why?Sheryl Sandberg:Oh, it’s probably longer than we have time for. A lot of reasons, but I really think
we need more women to lean into their careers and to be really dedicated tostaying in the work force. I think the achievement gap is caused by a lot of things.It’s caused by institutional barriers and all kinds of stuff. But there’s also a reallybig ambition gap. If you survey men and women in college today in this country,the men are more ambitious than the women. And until women are as ambitiousas men, they’re not going to achieve as much as men –Charlie Rose:And you know, there’s that famous [unintelligible] between, you know, they changed the namein one case it was Howard, in another case it was –Sheryl Sandberg:Howard and Heidi.Charlie Rose:– Howard and Heidi, yeah.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah. And the point of that study is that success and likability are positively correlated for menand negatively for women. So as a man gets more powerful and more successful, everyone —men and women like him more. And as a woman gets more powerful and successful, everyone,including women like them less. Canaleta [spelled phonetically] called it self-doubt and self-defense.Charlie Rose:Now, what does it mean to be Mark Zuckerberg today, in terms of what — the revolution, interms of the attention? I mean, a sense of how you adjust and how you assimilate and how you,in a sense, make sure that you are in command of it, and it’s not in command of you.Mark Zuckerberg:I don’t know. I think a big piece is just to try to stay grounded and, I don’t know,have a pretty simple life, right. I mean, I don’t — so people say that, you know,the company is so valuable, and there are all these people there and all that. ButI think the number of people who I work with I stay focused on keeping themwho I think are really good people, really smart, intellectually curious. I spend alot of time just, you know, with my girlfriend and my dog. And I mean, we don’thave a lot of furniture in our house, so it’s really simple. And we’re trying to buildproducts for everyone in the world, right. And you don’t want to get isolatedto do that. We have a very open culture at the company where we foster a lotof interaction between not just me and people but between everyone else. It’san open floor plan. People have these desks where no one really has an office. Imean, I have a room where I meet with people. But it has all glass so everyonecan see into it and see what’s going on.I don’t know. I just think that — actually, it’s really connected to the mission ofthe company. I think that more flow of information, the ability to stay connectedto more people makes people more effective as people. And I mean, that’s truesocially. It makes you have more fun, right. It feels better to be more connectedto all these people. You have a richer life. But I also think in terms of doing workand in terms of learning and evolving as a person, you just grow more when youget more people’s perspectives and when you’re more connected and have moreof a flow from people. So I don’t know. I think that’s really it. I mean, I really try
to live the mission of the company and embody that for the company and keepeverything else in my life extremely simple.Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah. It’s interesting to watch as closely as I have. Like since I’ve known Markover the last four years, in some ways, everything’s changed, in some ways,nothing has changed. So what’s changed is, you know, he was on his way tobeing Mark Zuckerberg four years ago. But now he’s like Mark Zuckerberg.Charlie Rose:He is Mark Zuckerberg.Sheryl Sandberg:He’s Mark Zuckerberg. Well, you know what I mean, right. Like we used to –Charlie Rose:Halloween, kids come to his house and knock on the door. It’s like –Sheryl Sandberg:Yeah, we used to walk around — right.[talking simultaneously]Sheryl Sandberg:But we could walk around Palo Alto four years ago, and people didn’t like look. And now theydo. But when you actually know him, like nothing’s changed. He wears actually exactly the samething even though it’s a new T-shirt. But he wears the same thing. He has the same girlfriend.Charlie Rose:Right.Sheryl Sandberg:He likes the same restaurants, not necessarily the restaurants I like, right. Likereally nothing’s changed. He has the same group of friends. And I think theability — I think we all focus on it here, but like stay grounded. Don’t changeyour social circles. You know, I have the same best friends I’ve had since I was inhigh school. Mark has the same friends he’s had since I was here. And that stuffreally matters. Live your regular life and just try to build stuff that matters. It’swhat we’re just trying to do.Charlie Rose:Thank you for this. Great to see you.Mark Zuckerberg:Thank you.Sheryl Sandberg:Thank you for visiting us.Charlie Rose:Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. Conversation with Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg
at their place in California. Thank you for joining us. See you next time.