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Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation
Hi
1
#innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com
MICHAEL J SKOK
Hi Harvard innovation lab
Turning Products into Companies
By Design & Architecture
twitter: @mjskok mjskok.com
North Bridge Venture Partners
STARTUP
SECRETS
Case Example: Gregg Favalora
Founder – Actuality Systems/Principal – Optics for Hire
Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation
Hi
2
#innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com
For context and more information:
• The entire “Turning Products into Companies”
presentation can be found here.
• For more on the Startup Secrets series, visit
www.startupsecrets.com
• Related Startup Secrets presentation recommendations:
– Building a Compelling Value Proposition
– Go To Market Strategies
Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation
Hi
3
#innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com
Gregg Favalora, Principal,
Optics for Hire
- Founder Actuality Systems
- @gfavalora
Client Confidential
Building and
Commercializing 3-D
Display Products:
Startups are Hard
April 2013
Gregg Favalora
Principal, Optics for Hire
* Founder, Actuality Systems (1997 – 2009)
gregg@opticsforhire.com
Client Confidential
Client Confidential
Client Confidential
Actuality Systems, Inc.
• Founded 1997
• At its peak, 23 employees
• Laid everyone off: Friday Apr. 24, 2009
• Product: Perspecta Spatial 3D System
– Developer tools, Perspecta Medical, Perspecta Viewer
• Target Markets: Medical Imaging, Military, & Entertainment
• First product released on less than $2M
• Total Raised: $15M
• 20 customers, $M in gov’t grants
• 19 patents – strongest 3-D portfolio in the sector
• Assets acquired by Optics for Hire: December, 2009
• Real exit: 2011 patent sale
Client Confidential
www.opticsforhire.com8
Actuality
Systems
Actuality
Medical
Series A
$1.5M
Note
$0.8M
Series B
$3M
Series C
$6.5M
Notes
$2.5M
1997 2004 2009
PerspectaRad
Acquisition
By OFH
Patents
Sold to “X”
2011
Client Confidential
Actuality in 2005
Client Confidential
Client Confidential
Client Confidential
Discussion Topics
• Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic)
– Setting the Scene: 1997
– Market Need
– The Technology: Spatial 3D
– The Company - Initial Fight for $$$
• Three Lessons Learned for Startups
• Getting your foot in the door with prospects
• Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them
• Things we were glad we did a lot of
• Things we wish we had done differently
• Regarding optics, imaging
• The 3-D industry
Client Confidential
Discussion Topics
• Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic)
– Setting the Scene: 1997
– Market Need
– The Technology: Spatial 3D
– The Company - Initial Fight for $$$
• Three Lessons Learned for Startups
• Getting your foot in the door with prospects
• Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them
• Things we were glad we did a lot of
• Things we wish we had done differently
• Regarding optics, imaging
• The 3-D industry
Client Confidential
The First Few Years:
Harder Than You‟d Ever Think
> What to expect when starting up
Client Confidential
www.opticsforhire.com15
Actuality
Systems
Actuality
Medical
Series A
$1.5M
Note
$0.8M
Series B
$3M
Series C
$6.5M
Notes
$2.5M
1997 2004 2009
PerspectaRad
Acquisition
By OFH
Patents
Sold to “X”
2011
Client Confidential
I started working in 3-D in 1988
Client Confidential
T-3 years before funding: 1996 - Prototype
1996
Client Confidential
T-2: 1997: Met Chairman, entered Bplan comp.
IPO: 1994
+721% („95)
Merger: $24 Billion („99)
Client Confidential
In 1997, people actually said “cyber-”
Client Confidential
T-1: 1998, 1999
Client Confidential
T-0: 1999 – Met key journalist at MIT
Struggle, struggle...
ka-ching!
Client Confidential
Getting your ducks in a row for funding
• Get an amazing mentor who made VCs richer
• HAVE A CLUE ABOUT YOUR MARKET (ZOMG!!1!!!)
• Read Crossing the Chasm so that you know all the elements of a product
• IP
– Have and use an NDA to not mess up your patent rights
– File several provisional applications (see: Patent it Yourself, Pressman)
– Do a decent prior-art search
– !! After funding, when you’re filing patent applications, remember:
attorneys will agree to cap their fees !!
• References: talk to warm-blooded customers who like you, get money or
purchase orders from them... And ask them to be references to investors
• Plan for future expenses: get quotations on key components and processes
• Founders work for free to make prototypes and sell whatever you can
• Don‟t pitch any investors until you‟ve practiced your pitch on “friendly fire”
• “Consultants” – don’t rack up $xx,xxx in payables, investors won’t want to
pay it and you’re probably not getting anything in return anyway
Client Confidential
2000 – 2004 – Actually, a ton of fun
• 6 full-time employees
• Tiny office in Reading (128)
• Engineering
• Ship betas & product
• Rounds of funding
• Winning awards, getting grants
& customers
• Bringing in seasoned exec team
• ...a whole new set of challenges
& excitement
Build it, baby!
Client Confidential
So How Do We Do this?
And now...
Client Confidential
Under the Hood (ca. 2001)
3-DMD
Projector
Three rotating
relay mirrors
Client Confidential
12-year Fishing Expedition
Gregg
The Elusive
“Market”
Client Confidential
[what I said during the previous slide]
• For many years, a few employees and I searched “wide
and deep” for a market that would sustain Actuality,
while we improved the core 3-D display product. This felt
backwards.
• Every one of these markets seemed like a good fit, but
ultimately, none felt the $100k ASP provided good ROI:
• Virtual prototyping, molecular visualization, C4I /
battlefield visualization, air traffic control, diagnostic
medical imaging (PET, orthopedics, cardiac),
interventional medical imaging, radiation therapy, 3-D
luggage scanning, video games, petroleum, ...
Client Confidential
Traditional Radiation Therapy
Pinnacle3 (Philips Medical Systems)
Client Confidential
Beam Planning
YesNo
Eyes Tumor Brain
Client Confidential
PerspectaRAD
Client Confidential
We won technical awards, but markets and larger
investments weren’t materializing.
Client Confidential
Actuality‟s financing rounds (1999-2008)
Series A ($1/share) (2000) $ 1,500,000
“2001 Note” 807,500
Series B ($0.2826/share) 3,499,996
Series C ($0.35/share) 6,499,998
Note 1 (Mar 2006) 1,445,134
Note 2 611,206
Note 3 (2008) 536,356
$14,900,189
Client Confidential
Note: This slide goes with significant verbal commentary. I gathered these data from a filebox of quarterly
financial statements and board meetings. It conflates balance sheets and income statements, but gives an
overall picture of what happened: rapid headcount ramp in the absence of a big customer .(Why? Well, we
needed a headcount of 90% engineering just to get the basic product out the door in the first place.)
Client Confidential
Acquisition
• 2004: CEO transitioned out. I was asked to be CEO during the Search.
• 2005: Frankly, a very difficult year for me – large team, 70% travel, etc.
• 2006-2009: PIVOT – new CEO stops 3-D displays, contemplates [merger], and
starts work on software for prostate cancer treatment
• Mar 2009: The financial market TANKS. The CEO exits, to help reduce burn.
• Apr 2009: I lay off remaining staff
• [Not a good year for selling IP]
• Dec 2009: A flurry of paperwork, then acquisition by OFH
• Dec 31, 2009: Formal dissolution of Actuality
• Jan, 2010: Acquisition:
Client Confidential
While working at OFH
• [Summary: I got a job at product-engineering firm OFH.
We approached 150 prospects to buy the ex-Actuality
patent portfolio. One deal came close to completion, and
collapsed a few months later. About 6 months after that,
a buyer was identified. We are all quite happy about this
exit.]
Client Confidential
A happy ending (2011!)
Client Confidential
Discussion Topics
• Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic)
– Setting the Scene: 1997
– Market Need
– The Technology: Spatial 3D
– The Company - Initial Fight for $$$
• Three Lessons Learned for Startups
• Getting your foot in the door with prospects
• Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them
• Things we were glad we did a lot of
• Things we wish we had done differently
• Regarding optics, imaging
• The 3-D industry
Client Confidential
Three general lessons for HW startups
• “Technology looking for a market” is hard
• It is very difficult to raise money for HW plays. Best
bets are savings[1], SBIR, and angels. The exception
is if your CEO already made $$ for VCs. Convince
your accounts to become paying customers.
• And...
[1] Be PRUDENT about this. Do not risk your family’s
savings!
In my opinion:
Client Confidential
Discussion Topics
• Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic)
– Setting the Scene: 1997
– Market Need
– The Technology: Spatial 3D
– The Company - Initial Fight for $$$
• Three Lessons Learned for Startups
• Getting your foot in the door with prospects
• Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them
• Things we were glad we did a lot of
• Things we wish we had done differently
• Regarding optics, imaging
• The 3-D industry
Client Confidential
Sales for Dummies
• One-paragraph, iPhone-
friendly email intro, “I’m a
student…”
• Explicitly respect people’s time
• In demos, “you” not “I”:
– NO: “With our feature-rich
software, I can click here…”
– YES: “You can learn about your
customers with ClientSort 2.0…”
• Use less techno-jargon.
• The two best words are “for
example.”
• Smile, use first names, talk
about happy things
• Email their PR people
• Email one of their VCs
• Try to Shopify it – sell
prototypes (FCC / UL though)
• Don’t use gimmicks, e.g. don’t
use Re: unless it really is
• Go to the account’s office and
show up day after day,
because that’s not creepy or
anything, but I hear it works
• (On landing SBIRs)
Client Confidential
Discussion Topics
• Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic)
– Setting the Scene: 1997
– Market Need
– The Technology: Spatial 3D
– The Company - Initial Fight for $$$
• Three Lessons Learned for Startups
• Getting your foot in the door with prospects
• Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them
• Things we were glad we did a lot of
• Things we wish we had done differently
• Regarding optics, imaging
• The 3-D industry
Client Confidential
Advice particular to optics, imaging
• Takes a lot of money and time for prototyping
• Our best computer graphics people were
mathematicians
• ITAR / DFARs / customs
• Investor contracts are (for better or worse) not
etched in stone – later-stage investors often require
amendments to early-stage investment contracts.
E.g., “Hey, you can have 100% of a $0 company, or
2% of a potentially $100M company, take your pick.”
• Government money and audits
• The creative process
• COMPONENTS ARE NOT SOLUTIONS
Client Confidential
Try really hard to sell systems instead of
components
!=
Client Confidential
What Went Right
• Went for it, low-risk at first
• Extraordinary luck at hiring engineering team
• Incredible IP portfolio – so good, we sold it twice!
• Broke four world’s records in display technology
• In early years, publicity from CNN to Wired
• Numerous Product of the Year awards
• We supported 23 people and their families over a
decade
• We were acquired and I am now happily working for the
acquiring company
Client Confidential
Contact me anytime
• Gregg Favalora, Principal
Optics for Hire (Arlington, MA)
gregg@opticsforhire.com
Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation
Hi
46
#innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com
For context and more information:
• The entire “Turning Products into Companies”
presentation can be found here.
• For more on the Startup Secrets series, visit
www.startupsecrets.com
• Related Startup Secrets presentation recommendations:
– Building a Compelling Value Proposition
– Go To Market Strategies
Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation
Hi
47
#innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com
MICHAEL J SKOK
Hi Harvard innovation lab
Turning Products into Companies
By Design & Architecture
twitter: @mjskok mjskok.com
North Bridge Venture Partners
STARTUP
SECRETS
Case Example: Gregg Favalora
Founder – Actuality Systems/Principal – Optics for Hire

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Harvard innovation lab startup secrets company formation

  • 1. Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation Hi 1 #innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com MICHAEL J SKOK Hi Harvard innovation lab Turning Products into Companies By Design & Architecture twitter: @mjskok mjskok.com North Bridge Venture Partners STARTUP SECRETS Case Example: Gregg Favalora Founder – Actuality Systems/Principal – Optics for Hire
  • 2. Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation Hi 2 #innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com For context and more information: • The entire “Turning Products into Companies” presentation can be found here. • For more on the Startup Secrets series, visit www.startupsecrets.com • Related Startup Secrets presentation recommendations: – Building a Compelling Value Proposition – Go To Market Strategies
  • 3. Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation Hi 3 #innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com Gregg Favalora, Principal, Optics for Hire - Founder Actuality Systems - @gfavalora
  • 4. Client Confidential Building and Commercializing 3-D Display Products: Startups are Hard April 2013 Gregg Favalora Principal, Optics for Hire * Founder, Actuality Systems (1997 – 2009) gregg@opticsforhire.com
  • 7. Client Confidential Actuality Systems, Inc. • Founded 1997 • At its peak, 23 employees • Laid everyone off: Friday Apr. 24, 2009 • Product: Perspecta Spatial 3D System – Developer tools, Perspecta Medical, Perspecta Viewer • Target Markets: Medical Imaging, Military, & Entertainment • First product released on less than $2M • Total Raised: $15M • 20 customers, $M in gov’t grants • 19 patents – strongest 3-D portfolio in the sector • Assets acquired by Optics for Hire: December, 2009 • Real exit: 2011 patent sale
  • 8. Client Confidential www.opticsforhire.com8 Actuality Systems Actuality Medical Series A $1.5M Note $0.8M Series B $3M Series C $6.5M Notes $2.5M 1997 2004 2009 PerspectaRad Acquisition By OFH Patents Sold to “X” 2011
  • 12. Client Confidential Discussion Topics • Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic) – Setting the Scene: 1997 – Market Need – The Technology: Spatial 3D – The Company - Initial Fight for $$$ • Three Lessons Learned for Startups • Getting your foot in the door with prospects • Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them • Things we were glad we did a lot of • Things we wish we had done differently • Regarding optics, imaging • The 3-D industry
  • 13. Client Confidential Discussion Topics • Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic) – Setting the Scene: 1997 – Market Need – The Technology: Spatial 3D – The Company - Initial Fight for $$$ • Three Lessons Learned for Startups • Getting your foot in the door with prospects • Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them • Things we were glad we did a lot of • Things we wish we had done differently • Regarding optics, imaging • The 3-D industry
  • 14. Client Confidential The First Few Years: Harder Than You‟d Ever Think > What to expect when starting up
  • 15. Client Confidential www.opticsforhire.com15 Actuality Systems Actuality Medical Series A $1.5M Note $0.8M Series B $3M Series C $6.5M Notes $2.5M 1997 2004 2009 PerspectaRad Acquisition By OFH Patents Sold to “X” 2011
  • 16. Client Confidential I started working in 3-D in 1988
  • 17. Client Confidential T-3 years before funding: 1996 - Prototype 1996
  • 18. Client Confidential T-2: 1997: Met Chairman, entered Bplan comp. IPO: 1994 +721% („95) Merger: $24 Billion („99)
  • 19. Client Confidential In 1997, people actually said “cyber-”
  • 21. Client Confidential T-0: 1999 – Met key journalist at MIT Struggle, struggle... ka-ching!
  • 22. Client Confidential Getting your ducks in a row for funding • Get an amazing mentor who made VCs richer • HAVE A CLUE ABOUT YOUR MARKET (ZOMG!!1!!!) • Read Crossing the Chasm so that you know all the elements of a product • IP – Have and use an NDA to not mess up your patent rights – File several provisional applications (see: Patent it Yourself, Pressman) – Do a decent prior-art search – !! After funding, when you’re filing patent applications, remember: attorneys will agree to cap their fees !! • References: talk to warm-blooded customers who like you, get money or purchase orders from them... And ask them to be references to investors • Plan for future expenses: get quotations on key components and processes • Founders work for free to make prototypes and sell whatever you can • Don‟t pitch any investors until you‟ve practiced your pitch on “friendly fire” • “Consultants” – don’t rack up $xx,xxx in payables, investors won’t want to pay it and you’re probably not getting anything in return anyway
  • 23. Client Confidential 2000 – 2004 – Actually, a ton of fun • 6 full-time employees • Tiny office in Reading (128) • Engineering • Ship betas & product • Rounds of funding • Winning awards, getting grants & customers • Bringing in seasoned exec team • ...a whole new set of challenges & excitement Build it, baby!
  • 24. Client Confidential So How Do We Do this? And now...
  • 25. Client Confidential Under the Hood (ca. 2001) 3-DMD Projector Three rotating relay mirrors
  • 26. Client Confidential 12-year Fishing Expedition Gregg The Elusive “Market”
  • 27. Client Confidential [what I said during the previous slide] • For many years, a few employees and I searched “wide and deep” for a market that would sustain Actuality, while we improved the core 3-D display product. This felt backwards. • Every one of these markets seemed like a good fit, but ultimately, none felt the $100k ASP provided good ROI: • Virtual prototyping, molecular visualization, C4I / battlefield visualization, air traffic control, diagnostic medical imaging (PET, orthopedics, cardiac), interventional medical imaging, radiation therapy, 3-D luggage scanning, video games, petroleum, ...
  • 28. Client Confidential Traditional Radiation Therapy Pinnacle3 (Philips Medical Systems)
  • 31. Client Confidential We won technical awards, but markets and larger investments weren’t materializing.
  • 32. Client Confidential Actuality‟s financing rounds (1999-2008) Series A ($1/share) (2000) $ 1,500,000 “2001 Note” 807,500 Series B ($0.2826/share) 3,499,996 Series C ($0.35/share) 6,499,998 Note 1 (Mar 2006) 1,445,134 Note 2 611,206 Note 3 (2008) 536,356 $14,900,189
  • 33. Client Confidential Note: This slide goes with significant verbal commentary. I gathered these data from a filebox of quarterly financial statements and board meetings. It conflates balance sheets and income statements, but gives an overall picture of what happened: rapid headcount ramp in the absence of a big customer .(Why? Well, we needed a headcount of 90% engineering just to get the basic product out the door in the first place.)
  • 34. Client Confidential Acquisition • 2004: CEO transitioned out. I was asked to be CEO during the Search. • 2005: Frankly, a very difficult year for me – large team, 70% travel, etc. • 2006-2009: PIVOT – new CEO stops 3-D displays, contemplates [merger], and starts work on software for prostate cancer treatment • Mar 2009: The financial market TANKS. The CEO exits, to help reduce burn. • Apr 2009: I lay off remaining staff • [Not a good year for selling IP] • Dec 2009: A flurry of paperwork, then acquisition by OFH • Dec 31, 2009: Formal dissolution of Actuality • Jan, 2010: Acquisition:
  • 35. Client Confidential While working at OFH • [Summary: I got a job at product-engineering firm OFH. We approached 150 prospects to buy the ex-Actuality patent portfolio. One deal came close to completion, and collapsed a few months later. About 6 months after that, a buyer was identified. We are all quite happy about this exit.]
  • 36. Client Confidential A happy ending (2011!)
  • 37. Client Confidential Discussion Topics • Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic) – Setting the Scene: 1997 – Market Need – The Technology: Spatial 3D – The Company - Initial Fight for $$$ • Three Lessons Learned for Startups • Getting your foot in the door with prospects • Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them • Things we were glad we did a lot of • Things we wish we had done differently • Regarding optics, imaging • The 3-D industry
  • 38. Client Confidential Three general lessons for HW startups • “Technology looking for a market” is hard • It is very difficult to raise money for HW plays. Best bets are savings[1], SBIR, and angels. The exception is if your CEO already made $$ for VCs. Convince your accounts to become paying customers. • And... [1] Be PRUDENT about this. Do not risk your family’s savings! In my opinion:
  • 39. Client Confidential Discussion Topics • Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic) – Setting the Scene: 1997 – Market Need – The Technology: Spatial 3D – The Company - Initial Fight for $$$ • Three Lessons Learned for Startups • Getting your foot in the door with prospects • Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them • Things we were glad we did a lot of • Things we wish we had done differently • Regarding optics, imaging • The 3-D industry
  • 40. Client Confidential Sales for Dummies • One-paragraph, iPhone- friendly email intro, “I’m a student…” • Explicitly respect people’s time • In demos, “you” not “I”: – NO: “With our feature-rich software, I can click here…” – YES: “You can learn about your customers with ClientSort 2.0…” • Use less techno-jargon. • The two best words are “for example.” • Smile, use first names, talk about happy things • Email their PR people • Email one of their VCs • Try to Shopify it – sell prototypes (FCC / UL though) • Don’t use gimmicks, e.g. don’t use Re: unless it really is • Go to the account’s office and show up day after day, because that’s not creepy or anything, but I hear it works • (On landing SBIRs)
  • 41. Client Confidential Discussion Topics • Case Study: Actuality Systems (basic) – Setting the Scene: 1997 – Market Need – The Technology: Spatial 3D – The Company - Initial Fight for $$$ • Three Lessons Learned for Startups • Getting your foot in the door with prospects • Four challenges at Actuality and how we overcame them • Things we were glad we did a lot of • Things we wish we had done differently • Regarding optics, imaging • The 3-D industry
  • 42. Client Confidential Advice particular to optics, imaging • Takes a lot of money and time for prototyping • Our best computer graphics people were mathematicians • ITAR / DFARs / customs • Investor contracts are (for better or worse) not etched in stone – later-stage investors often require amendments to early-stage investment contracts. E.g., “Hey, you can have 100% of a $0 company, or 2% of a potentially $100M company, take your pick.” • Government money and audits • The creative process • COMPONENTS ARE NOT SOLUTIONS
  • 43. Client Confidential Try really hard to sell systems instead of components !=
  • 44. Client Confidential What Went Right • Went for it, low-risk at first • Extraordinary luck at hiring engineering team • Incredible IP portfolio – so good, we sold it twice! • Broke four world’s records in display technology • In early years, publicity from CNN to Wired • Numerous Product of the Year awards • We supported 23 people and their families over a decade • We were acquired and I am now happily working for the acquiring company
  • 45. Client Confidential Contact me anytime • Gregg Favalora, Principal Optics for Hire (Arlington, MA) gregg@opticsforhire.com
  • 46. Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation Hi 46 #innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com For context and more information: • The entire “Turning Products into Companies” presentation can be found here. • For more on the Startup Secrets series, visit www.startupsecrets.com • Related Startup Secrets presentation recommendations: – Building a Compelling Value Proposition – Go To Market Strategies
  • 47. Harvard innovation lab : Michael J Skok : Startup Secrets : Company Formation Hi 47 #innovationlab @mjskok #startupsecrets www.mjskok.com MICHAEL J SKOK Hi Harvard innovation lab Turning Products into Companies By Design & Architecture twitter: @mjskok mjskok.com North Bridge Venture Partners STARTUP SECRETS Case Example: Gregg Favalora Founder – Actuality Systems/Principal – Optics for Hire

Editor's Notes

  1. Actuality Systems operated from 1997 to 2009. We were best known for the 100 million voxel display PERSPECTA, while we secretly developed a series of light field displays that made less conspicuous use of moving mechanics.In 2009, a company called OFH aquired Actuality’s patents. And in 2011, sold them to a confidential buyer.I am a partner at OFH.Today you’ll learn about two displays, made around 2004 and 2005. One worked really well. The other did not work at all.
  2. Actuality Systems operated from 1997 to 2009. We were best known for the 100 million voxel display PERSPECTA, while we secretly developed a series of light field displays that made less conspicuous use of moving mechanics.In 2009, a company called OFH aquired Actuality’s patents. And in 2011, sold them to a confidential buyer.I am a partner at OFH.Today you’ll learn about two displays, made around 2004 and 2005. One worked really well. The other did not work at all.