1.
(versus 14 years at ThoughtWorks)
Jason Yip
Senior Agile Coach
Spotify NYC
@jchyip
3 insights from 4 years
at Spotify

2.
This talk is about
what I’ve learned at
Spotify over 4 years
(long time for a hypergrowth
company)

3.
Before Spotify, I was
at ThoughtWorks for
around 14 years.
(mostly in Australia!)

4.
I’ve picked 3 insights
that I think might be
most interesting.

5.
Insight #1:
Aligned autonomy is
an ongoing struggle.

6.
Insight #2:
Building teams in the
context of high growth
requires different
assumptions.

7.
Insight #3:
Consulting companies
are better at building
high-performing
teams fast.

8.
Insight #1:
Aligned autonomy is
an ongoing struggle.

9.
What do I mean by
“aligned autonomy”?

10.
Autonomy

11.
Autonomy
Alignment

12.
https://blog.crisp.se/2016/08/23/henrikkniberg/alignment-at-scale-agile-africa-keynote

13.
What’s so hard about
aligned autonomy?

14.
Hypergrowth!
(aka scale)
Politics
(aka people are involved)
“Air Sandwich”

15.
Hypergrowth!
(aka scale)
Politics
(aka people are involved)
“Air Sandwich”

16.
Does the following look
familiar to you?

17.
Clear vision and future direction.
Day-to-day action.

18.
“An Air Sandwich is a strategy that
has clear vision and future direction
on the top layer, day-to-day action on
the bottom, and virtually nothing in
the middle...”
Nilofer Merchant
https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/collaborative-strategy-with-nilofer-merchant/

19.
“We need X,
figure it out!”
doesn’t
actually work

20.
Hypergrowth!
(aka scale)
Politics
(aka people are involved)
“Air Sandwich”

21.
1 Tribe
~20 people
Multiple Product
Area / Tribes
~200 people(After peeling off an entire Mission along the way)
2015 2019

22.
AKA more than
doubling every year.
(even with exits and backfill)

23.
Hypergrowth!
(aka scale)
Politics
(aka people are involved)
“Air Sandwich”

24.
https://labs.spotify.com/2014/03/27/spotify-engineering-culture-part-1/

25.
“Anything that’s human is
mentionable, and anything
that is mentionable can be
more manageable.”
Fred Rogers

26.
What I don’t think
works for alignment

27.
Spreadsheets

28.
One-off speeches

29.
From Spotify: Plan Do Flush issue 5

30.
What I think works
for alignment

31.
“Catchball”
(back-and-forth dialogue)
“Rhythm”
(aka meetings)
Boundary objects
(shared models and maps)

32.
“Catchball”
(back-and-forth dialogue)
“Rhythm”
(aka meetings)
Boundary objects
(shared models and maps)

33.
“Catchball” is a
Toyota/Lean metaphor.

34.
Imagine throwing a ball
to someone, they throw
it back, you throw it
back, etc.

35.
Alignment dialogue
should be like this.

36.
Alignment dialogue is
not one-way.

37.
Alignment dialogue is
typically not just one
back-and-forth...

38.
...especially when it
matters.

39.
Reporting line

40.
Peer-to-peer

41.
Vertical catchball

42.
This doesn’t get any
back-and-forth.

43.
This does.

44.
Lateral catchball

45.
The following doesn’t
work.

46.
“I’m sure they know we’re
depending on them.”

47.
“We’ve marked them as
a dependency in a
spreadsheet that none of
us regularly check.”

48.
The following seems to
work…
(at least better)

49.
“We’ve talked directly about this.”
“They have us in their OKRs.”
(or whatever their planning approach is)
“We have a regular sync.”

50.
“Catchball”
(back-and-forth dialogue)
“Rhythm”
(aka meetings)
Boundary objects
(shared models and maps)

51.
Serendipity
Informality
1:1
Deliberate
Explicit
n:n

52.
As an example...

53.
● “R&D” = “research & development” = product development arm of
Spotify as opposed to business operations
● “Squad” = cross-functional team
● “Tribe” = collection of Squads working on a shared mission
● “TPDI” = 4 main functions we have in R&D: Technology, Product,
Design, Insights. They all have independent reporting lines.
● Tribe leadership team - Typical consists of one lead from each of TPDI
but varies depending on context or other circumstances ← (I typically
operate here)
Crash course in Spotify jargon

54.
“Tribe R&D Leads”
Open-ended
Participants Agenda
Key events Problem-solving
Whatever is top of mind
Tribe Leads (TPDI + Coach)

55.
Open-ended
Participants Agenda
Key events Problem-solving
Whatever is top of mind
Tribe Leads (TPDI + Coach)
Add PMs and CLs
“Tribe R&D Leads”

56.
Open-ended
Participants Agenda
Key events Problem-solving
Whatever is top of mind
Tribe Leads (TPDI + Coach)
Add PMs and CLs
Add Senior ICs
“Tribe R&D Leads”

57.
Started to feel
clunky...

58.
The larger the meeting the
longer it takes to get to depth.

59.
“R&D Leads”
“R&D Leads”
“Tribe Leads”
“Squad Delivery syncs”
Open-ended
problem-solving
Smaller groups
More focused agenda

60.
Started to feel like
meetings were
redundant...

61.
“R&D Leads”
“R&D Leads”
“Tribe Leads”
“Squad Delivery
syncs”
“Tribe Leads”
“OKR sync”
“Squad leads sync”
Open-ended
problem-solving
Smaller groups
More focused agenda
Less redundancy
More focused agenda

62.
The balancing act

63.
The larger the meeting the
longer it takes to get to depth.

64.
The less perspectives in a meeting
the less likely problems are detected.

65.
“Catchball”
(back-and-forth dialogue)
“Rhythm”
(aka meetings)
Boundary objects
(shared models and maps)

66.
“A term from the sociology of
science, “boundary object” refers
to an object (physical or mental)
that allows groups with different
goals to coordinate their actions.”
Brian Marick
http://www.exampler.com/blog/2011/05/22/business-value-as-a-boundary-object-2/

67.
https://www.jpattonassociates.com/read-this-first/glad-we-all-agree-2/

68.
A shared model or
“boundary object”
facilitates real over
fake alignment.

69.
Some shared models
tried/used in 1 Tribe.

70.
Metaphors

71.
Flywheels
This is Amazon’s
flywheel. Replace with
actual Spotify flywheels
that I’m not comfortable
sharing publicly.

72.
“Design hierarchy of needs”
https://medium.theuxblog.com/design-hierarchy-of-needs-the-product-owners-guide-29ceb28205ae

73.
Campaign Setup Segmentation Creative
Editor
Scheduling A/B Testing Rendering User
Protection
Delivery Reporting
Process/Journey Map

74.
Machine
learning
System context diagrams
https://c4model.com/

75.
Cause and effect diagrams

76.
The balancing act

77.
If the model is too
simple, it’s misleading.

78.
If the model is too fancy,
it’s confusing.

79.
Whatever works is the
right model or map.

80.
What works may change
over time.

81.
Insight #1:
Aligned autonomy is
an ongoing struggle.

82.
Hypergrowth!
(aka scale)
Politics
(aka people are involved)
“Air Sandwich”
Because...

83.
Therefore...
“Catchball”
(back-and-forth dialogue)
“Rhythm”
(aka meetings)
Boundary objects
(Shared models and maps)

84.
Insight #2:
Building teams in the
context of high growth
requires different
assumptions.

85.
What do I mean by
“high growth”?

86.
1 Tribe
~20 people
Multiple Product
Area / Tribes
~200 people(After peeling off an entire Mission along the way)
2015 2019

87.
AKA more than
doubling every year.
(even with exits and backfill)

88.
What’s so hard about
building teams with
high growth?

89.
Can’t rely on
cultural osmosis
Can’t assume
stable teams

90.
Can’t rely on
cultural osmosis
Can’t assume
stable teams

91.
This is kind of
straight-forward...

92.
Can’t rely on
cultural osmosis
Can’t assume
stable teams

93.
The new people
outnumber the veterans.

94.
Default culture is
NOT what pre-exists.

95.
Default culture
becomes whatever
new people bring
with them.

96.
What I don’t think
works for building
teams with high
growth

97.
Presumptive
team splits

98.
“This will eventually
be a separate team
so we might as well
split it now…”

99.
OR

100.
“We need to split the
team because teams
shouldn’t have more
than N members.”

101.
Unclear on mission,
missing skills
Disengage or quit
Fill time with low-value activity
Get bored

102.
What I think works
for building teams
with high growth

103.
Deliberate cultureStructure follows strategy
Organic org design

104.
Deliberate cultureStructure follows strategy
Organic org design

105.
“Unless structure follows
strategy, inefficiency
results.”
Alfred D. Chandler Jr

106.
As an example...

107.
● “Squad” = cross-functional team
● “Tribe” = collection of Squads working on a
shared mission
Reminder: Spotify jargon

108.
(For us) Tribe missions
are much more stable
than Squad missions.

109.
Therefore...

110.
Tribes should be more
stable than Squads.

111.
Emphasise Tribe identity
over Squad identity

112.
Encourage movement and
collaboration across Squads

113.
NOTE: The point is NOT
“Tribes should be more
stable than Squads.”

114.
The point is...

115.
Structure should follow
strategy

116.
Deliberate cultureStructure follows strategy
Organic org design

117.
This is how I
approach splitting
(Squads, Tribes, etc.)

118.
Wait for seams to
appear, that is, clunkiness in
communication flow and interaction
patterns, especially meetings.

119.
Nudge things apart, that
is, separate rhythms and events.

120.
Formalise the split. If
done correctly, this is mostly an
acknowledgement and non-event.

121.
The target reaction
is something like
“Finally!” OR “Well,
obviously!”

122.
1.Wait for seams to
appear
2.Nudge things apart
3.Formalise the split

123.
Deliberate cultureStructure follows strategy
Organic org design

124.
1. Artifacts
2. Espoused Beliefs and Values
3. Basic Underlying Assumptions
Edgar Schein’s 3 Levels of Culture

125.
There is no such thing
as universal “bad
culture” but a culture
can be incompatible
with a strategy.

126.
1. Diagnosis
2. Guiding Policy
3. Coherent Actions
Richard Rumelt Strategy Kernel

127.
1. I can’t accept the diagnosis
2. I can’t accept the guiding policies
3. Therefore I won’t engage in the
actions because they will seem
nonsensical.
An incompatible culture means...

128.
If you are not deliberate
about culture, you will
have random strategic
problems.

129.
Default culture
becomes whatever
new people bring
with them...

130.
… unless you a much
more deliberate
about occupying that
space.

131.
1. Role modelling
2. Systems (processes, tools, etc.)
3. Symbols
3 tools for deliberate culture

132.
Insight #2:
Building teams in the
context of high growth
requires different
assumptions.

133.
Because...
Can’t rely on
cultural osmosis
Can’t assume
stable teams

134.
Therefore...
Deliberate culture
Structure follows strategy
Organic org design

135.
Insight #3:
Consulting companies
are better at building
high-performing
teams fast.

136.
Why are consulting
companies faster at
building teams?

137.
No choice, no time

138.
Revenue is based on
billable hours.

139.
Clients don’t want to
pay for setup time.

140.
Therefore...

141.
Get fast at building
high-performing teams.

142.
What I think matters to
build high-performing
teams fast

143.
Focus on craft,
not mission
Practice teaming
and re-teaming
Same training,
same assumptions

144.
Focus on craft,
not mission
Practice teaming
and re-teaming
Same training,
same assumptions

145.
You can hit the ground
running, if you don’t
have to stop to negotiate
roles, rhythms, rituals.

146.
When I started at
ThoughtWorks

147.
“I don’t know you but I
can assume you’re into
XP and Martin Fowler.”

148.
AKA being much more
particular in hiring
(though watch out for D&I)

149.
Alternatively...

150.
At some point after I
started: ThoughtWorks
University

151.
https://www.thoughtworks.com/careers/graduates
“You’ll spend five weeks with
ThoughtWorkers from around the
world, discovering our values,
practices and principles, and
hearing all the best stories.”

152.
AKA much more
involved onboarding
(e.g., 4 - 6 weeks)

153.
Focus on craft,
not mission
Practice teaming
and re-teaming
Same training,
same assumptions

154.
“we need teams of
missionaries, not teams of
mercenaries.”
John Doerr, via Marty Cagan

155.
Enthusiasm for purpose
doesn’t compensate for
lack of skill.

156.
Granted...

157.
Skilled craft doesn’t
excuse participation in
an unethical mission.

158.
Consultants focus on
craft because clients
are typically not that
interesting...

159.
“Time spent on
Open Source”
“How interesting
is the client?”

160.
Craft-building sessions
I think worked

161.
Brown Bag sessions
Facilitate workshops or presentations on
interesting topics over lunch at the client
or back at the office.

162.
Hack Nights
Meet-up after work to work on personal
or Open Source projects together.

163.
https://www.meetup.com/Progressive-Hack-Night/events/hrkfjryzqbgb/

164.
Coding Dojos
A pair demonstrates how they solve a
problem with an audience.
I especially liked the randori style with
rotation and audience participation.

165.
Mob Code Review
I remember doing this with reviewing
coding submissions. I think this is a
very effective design taste calibration
activity.

166.
How should this
happen when the work
IS interesting?

167.
Still have these kind of
extracurricular craft
events?
(practice vs working)

168.
Modify how work is
done to accommodate
more practice?
(aka regular on-the-job training)

169.
Unless something else
pops up, I’d like to
explore this next year.

170.
Focus on craft,
not mission
Practice teaming
and re-teaming
Same training,
same assumptions

171.
Consulting
company
Product
company
Typical lifetime of team
Weeks to months Multiple quarters

172.
“If it hurts, do it more often”
https://martinfowler.com/bliki/FrequencyReducesDifficulty.html

173.
Insight #3:
Consulting companies
are better at building
high-performing
teams fast.

174.
Because...
No choice, no time

175.
Therefore...
Focus on craft,
not mission
Practice teaming
and re-teaming
Same training,
same assumptions

176.
...and non-consulting
companies can do
those things too!

177.
3 insights from 4
years at Spotify

178.
Insight #1:
Aligned autonomy is
an ongoing struggle.

179.
Hypergrowth!
(aka scale)
Politics
(aka people are involved)
“Air Sandwich”
Because...

180.
Therefore...
“Catchball”
(back-and-forth dialogue)
“Rhythm”
(aka meetings)
Boundary objects
(Shared models and maps)

181.
Insight #2:
Building teams in the
context of high growth
requires different
assumptions.

182.
Because...
Can’t rely on
cultural osmosis
Can’t assume
stable teams

183.
Therefore...
Deliberate culture
Structure follows strategy
Organic org design

184.
Insight #3:
Consulting companies
are better at building
high-performing
teams fast.

185.
Because...
No choice, no time

186.
Therefore...
Focus on craft,
not mission
Practice teaming
and re-teaming
Same training,
same assumptions

187.
Questions?
Ideas?
Advice?Jason Yip
@jchyip
https://www.spotifyjobs.com/

188.
How does what I said
about alignment fit
with what Gene said
about lunch factor?Jason Yip
@jchyip
https://www.spotifyjobs.com/