Michael Gilmour: 50% ROI Per Year on Domain Name Parking


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Watch the full show: http://domainsherpa.com/michael-gilmour

What are the best domain names to buy for parking, how can you maximize your return on investment when buying such names, and what is an appropriate return on investment for parking? These are but three of the questions answered in this week's show with Michael Gilmour.

An entrepreneur and investor, Gilmour started his domain name business by placing a big bet: his last $100 on a single domain name that he immediately parked. Learn how Gilmour parlayed his earnings from that single domain into a portfolio that at its peak generated thousands of dollars a day in parking revenue.

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Michael Gilmour: 50% ROI Per Year on Domain Name Parking

  1. 1. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Interview with Michael Gilmour, ParkLogic.comWatch the full video at:http://www.domainsherpa.com/michael-gilmour-parklogic-interview/Before we get started, you know DomainTools.com, right? I can typewhois.sc/domainname really fast and I do it daily, but until recently I didntknow how powerful their other tools were. If I want a domain name, I can seta free alert to notify me when it changes status. If it goes to auction, I can usetheir sales history tool to find comps and determine my maximum bid price.After I buy it and develop the domain into a business, I can set up alerts forany domains registered that contain my trademark, and I can set up registrantalerts of all my competitors so I can keep an eye on what domains theyrebuying and know what theyre up to before they make any announcements.DomainTools.com needs to be in your toolbox, like it is in mine. Go sign upfor an account on DomainTools.com today.My second sponsor is David E. Weslow at Wiley Rein. Imagine having alegal issue, like a UDRP or cease and desist, imagine having to get anagreement put together quickly for buying or selling a domain name, andimagine going to your family lawyer who just doesnt get it, or one of theexpensive law firms in your city who are going to invoice for thousands uponthousands of dollars. Then imagine going to David E. Weslow, who willunderstand your domain name portfolio and your intellectual property assets,understand the domain name environment, and be able to help you out. DavidE. Weslow. I trust him, and I suggest you give him a call. Your initialconsultation is free. Call David E. Weslow at Wiley Rein.Finally, our newest sponsor is Protrada - The Domain Exchange. Protrada isan amazing new platform for professional domainers and new-comers alike.Protrada makes trading domain names easy. With just a few clicks, you cananalyze, bid, buy and sell domains across all major marketplaces includingNameJet, Go Daddy, SnapNames and Craigslist. You can also developstagnating domains you own into great-looking, content-rich, socially-activewebsites that will rank at Google and Bing. This tool is more comprehensivethan any other Ive seen. If you only use it for its 21 powerful buying filters,Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 1 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  2. 2. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  youll get your moneys worth. Get your free 14-day trial now atProtrada.com.Heres your program.Michael Cyger: Hey everyone. My name is Michael Cyger, and Im thePublisher of Domain Sherpa (dot) com, the web site where you come to learnhow to be a successful domain name entrepreneur directly from the experts.Weve heard over the past few years, over and over again, about the death ofdomain name parking. What used to be a very lucrative tactic a few years agohas now dried up according to many domain name investors. But if therewere a way to actually make money parking domain names? Thats thequestion were going to answer today. How can a domain name investormaximize revenue from parking domain names? Joining me to answer thisquestion is Michael Gilmour. Michael is the Founder and CEO of Park Logic,a domain name management and parking service. Michael, welcome to theshow.Michael Gilmour: Hi, how you doing Michael?Michael Cyger: Great. Michael I hope youre up to the challenge today. Iveput out quite a task for you to tell the audience how to make money withparking. Are you up for it?Michael Gilmour: Absolutely. Yeah, let me tell you. Parking is alive andwell.Michael Cyger: Great. And Im glad you said that. Were gonna find out inthis show. And I find this particularly interesting, because Ive never parked adomain name in my life. So while Im asking you the questions, Im going tobe thinking in the back of my mind how can I put this to work; what domainnames can I buy to park; how will I monetize them; what kind of return oninvestment can I expect to receive. So lets get started with this question.What are the major points that someone should know about when consideringdomain names to buy for parking?Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 2 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  3. 3. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Well, the number on concern is, the domain has to havetraffic. If it doesnt have traffic, then no parking service - I dont care who it is- is gonna make money with that. Everything comes down to traffic, becausethats what the advertisers want.Michael Cyger: Yep.Michael Gilmour: And so, thats the thing. These are an important thing tolook at.Michael Cyger: The first thing: needs traffic.Michael Gilmour: Yep.Michael Cyger: Whats the next thing?Michael Gilmour: Okay. The next thing you need to really look at is, onceyou got the traffic, you got the domain, then you need to be able to increasethe click through rate; the relevance. In other words, you need to find outwhat advertisers wants this traffic. Then you move from there and say, great.I know that, say, games. Is it games traffic, so I want to attract games typeadvertisers to them. So you set your keyword, but you need to set the highestpaying keyword. Being to work on the earning per click.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: So, you got a high click through rate because you knowwhat the traffic wants. You then wanna get the highest paying keyword.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Thats what its about. Now, you can do other things suchas begin to alter the look and feel of the pages and things like that, and itllgive you an even better result, but ultimately what it comes down to workingon the click through rate and also the earning per click.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 3 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  4. 4. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: Alright. Got it. So we need to buy domains with traffic. Weneed to know how to monetize them best; where to monetize them. And thenwe need to make sure that were monetizing the best; that the highest earningsper click, and converting that traffic.Michael Gilmour: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thats what it boils down to.Michael Cyger: Alright.Michael Gilmour: But, can I just say...Michael Cyger: Yeah, please.Michael Gilmour: If I interrupt you for a second is that, get domains withtraffic. I cannot emphasize that enough. Like people have said, as you said inyour intro, that yeah, maybe domain parking is dead and all that sort of stuff.The bottom line is theres more traffic around in domains than there has everbeen before. And advertisers want the traffic. So its a matter of trying tobetter match and doing some more work. Well, in the past you made about asimilar beach drinking. Sipping a nice cocktail, or something like that, andearning your billion dollars a year. But now youve actually gotta do somework. So its like welcome to the real world everyone.Michael Cyger: Yeah. Alright. Were gonna dig into each of these steps thatwe went over. But if someone was to watch this show, Michael, you know,and they wanna know, if I invest the time in watching this show, andlistening to Michael, and taking what he says to heart, and I go and do thisstuff, and I buy the domain names, and I modify my portfolio, and I have thedomain names that hes recommending, what can they expect as a return ontheir investment? Whats a good; what would you expect to be a good returnon investment from parked domain names?Michael Gilmour: If I didnt get a fifty percent return on investment, Id bevery concerned. Thats the bottom line; is that you can buy portfolios, now,for around two years revenue; and theres some risk associated with that, somake sure you know who youre buying from. You need to do someMichael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 4 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  5. 5. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  appropriate due diligence. But its around two years revenue, so fifty percentreturn is what Id be looking for.Michael Cyger: Okay. Alright, great. So, Michael, before we get into thedetails of this, I wanna go back a little bit in your history, and find out howyou got to this point, and how you know so much about domain nameparking. So lets go back for a moment. Im gonna go back to about 1998.You just graduated with a Masters Degree in Business Administration fromwhat I understand, and you wanted to get in this thing that was coming out,called the Internet. And so, you bought some modems, and you started yourown ISP. Tell me about that.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. Boy, youre taking me down memory lane here. Iremember that. It was actually my marketing group in the middle of myMBA. And we had the opportunity to study photocopy paper or the Internetas our marketing project. And the other guys in the group said; we call madea very important decision. And that was to study photocopy paper. And weended up with a high distinction for the subject, but this thing called theInternet really bugged me. Because Ive been involved in the bulletin boardsystems back in the eighties and stuff, and I thought theres something aboutthe Internet. And so, I thought, well, if you wanna learn something, becomeit. So I founded an ISP in the back room of my house.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: And in the end, I had like a cord of phone lines about thatbig, you know, coming. Itd been pulled into my house, and I had a wall ofmodems. And every now and then Id bring my friends into my back room,and itd be like Starship Enterprise here. Id turn on the sound for themodems, and they go [sounds of modem] continuously. And I said to them,That is the sound of a cash register. And I was getting like five bucks anhour. It was like they were the days.Michael Cyger: Five bucks an hour youre making at your ISP?Michael Gilmour: Yeah, and I was running out of the back room of myhouse, thinking, How good is this?Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 5 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  6. 6. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: Yeah. Thats pretty good.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, but..Michael Cyger: Five bucks an hour. Youre talking about five bucks an hourper line, not five bucks an hour across all the lines that were coming in onthis bundle.Michael Gilmour: Oh, no, no. Five bucks per line.Michael Cyger: Per line. Right.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, absolutely. And so, it was like, every time I wouldturn the modem sounds on, and Id go, Thats the sound of a cash register. Itwas wonderful.Michael Cyger: Yeah, and Im so sad that my kids are never gonna have thepleasure of starting up their computer, and then connecting to their 56K BODModem and hearing that beautiful sound connecting.Michael Gilmour: Fifty-six? Thats fast! I was doing thirty-three.Michael Cyger: Wow.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, so that was an interesting experience.Michael Cyger: So, how big did you build that business, Michael? How manycustomers did you have?Michael Gilmour: Oh, Im trying to remember; some thousands of customers.Michael Cyger: Thousands.Michael Gilmour: Yeah.Michael Cyger: So, what was your revenue at the end of that business?Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 6 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  7. 7. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Oh, youre asking me to remember a long time ago. I wasdoing - let me think how much -. I cant even remember now.Michael Cyger: No?Michael Gilmour: I really cant. In the end, I grew that business; we hadtwenty-three staff.Michael Cyger: Wow!Michael Gilmour: I got some venture capital, which was an experience initself. If youve ever raised venture capital before, its always an experience.And we predominately was for developing an online advertising system. Andwe call it active information. And so, what would happen was; is that themoney would come in in (Unclear 8:43.2). And I remember I put my handout one day, and the people that invested was actually Compaq Computers.Michael Cyger: Oh, wow.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, yeah. So I put my hand out for my next (Unclear8:54.6) of money, and they said, oh, look, essentially if you read between thelines, it was like, Michael, were emerging with Hewlett Packard. And werecleaning up these small investments. And your 1.6 million youre expecting;its just not gonna come. And I go, Well, were under contract. And theysaid, Yeah, we know, but you know, we got like three hundred lawyers and afew hundred million dollars worth of legal fees weve allocated to deal withrisk stuff, so, nah, its not coming. And I looked around, and business modelsran because research; a lot of it was research. Was to run down a cash downto zero, and then you put your hand out for the next bit of money youexpected, and so forth; until you commercialize the product. And so, Youretrying to fill at one point a six million dollar hole in a few weeks. Prettydifficult.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 7 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  8. 8. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: And so, I had to close that business. I just about lost myhouse.Michael Cyger: Wow.Michael Gilmour: In that process. It was not a pretty situation.Michael Cyger: What year was that roughly, Michael?Michael Gilmour: Was it 2001? So its just after the Sydney Olympics, yeah.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Right around then.Michael Cyger: So you had thousands of customers; each of which, everytime they connected to the Internet, they were paying you five dollars anhour. So you had a good amount of revenue. You know, I cant count theamount of entrepreneurs that I have spoken to in the past who built up theirwealth in ISPs, you know. Its amazing how ISPs grew. How much money -how much cash - they threw off. And then a lot of them got acquired. Youdidnt necessarily have that exit. When you concluded the business, you werecompletely out of money?Michael Gilmour: Yeah, so, essentially what happened was; when we got theinvestment in, the ISP became less and less of a focus. Because it began tomodernize that time.Michael Cyger: Oh, I got it.Michael Gilmour: And so, you wont get five bucks an hour. Something likethat. In the end, it was getting. It wasnt an hourly rate. It was a fixed fee permonth, and all that sort of stuff.Michael Cyger: Got you.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 8 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  9. 9. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Yeah, so the money was put in predominantly for an onlineadvertising system, so I cut my teeth on that. And in the process, I becamethe Vice Chairman of the Australian Internet Industry Association. And infact, I headed up the online task force; forcing the standards for the wholecountry. I was the chairman of that. So I learned a lot about onlineadvertising and so forth, and its during that period of time. And it was verydifficult. So when you have a research project, and you run your cash down,and you expect the next cash to come in, you have no where to move.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: So we had to close that business and everything. And therewere some other smaller investors who got called out and everything, whichwas not a pretty scene, but it was great news later. Those same smallinvestors did some further investments with me. Because they said, Look,Michael. Its one of those things that happens in business, and no one can doanything.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. So that was nice so much to me. Because youwonder what people think.Michael Cyger: Yeah. No, definitely. And so, at the end of that period ofyour professional career, you found yourself without your company, withouta savings nest egg, almost without your house, without a job, but I read youhad a hundred dollars to your name.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. Well, just to be clear on that. It took us quite sometime to save up that hundred dollars. Yeah, it was just that we literally hadlike a hundred bucks. And we saved that. My wife and I had saved that up togo out for dinner. It was like a big thing to go and have a nice dinner. And Ibegan to look at this domain thing. And I thought theres something aboutdomains. And I blew the hundred bucks.Michael Cyger: What did you buy?Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 9 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  10. 10. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: I bought a domain. It was Bigpap (dot) com.Michael Cyger: Bigcap? C-A-P?Michael Gilmour: Bigpap. P-A-P.Michael Cyger: Bigpap (dot) com.Michael Gilmour: (dot) com. And I remember buying this domain. And I hadbought it on one of the forums from some person who had it, and I reallyknew nothing. And I remember the next day, and I parked it. I was like one ofthe very first people to do parking.Michael Cyger: Where did you park it at the time?Michael Gilmour: I parked it at Ceto.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: I just liked them. I dont know. I was one of their firstcustomers.Michael Cyger: Yeah. Yeah.Michael Gilmour: And I remember the next day. I remember earning likefifty cents. Like, let me tell you. At that point in time, I had an epiphany. AndI thought I suddenly made; I felt like Id just fall into a pool of money. And Icalled up all my friends and everything like that. And I must of my veryunderstanding wife, and I said, Guess what? We made fifty cents! Someoneclicked on our name, and we made fifty cents! And she goes, Was it you? Isaid, No. I didnt click. Its not the right thing to do, and all this differentstuff. And I remember calling up and some of my friends would say, Comeon Michael. Go and get a job. I said, No, no. Theres something about this.Because the thing I understood was that I earned the money, and I actuallydidnt have to do any effort after acquiring the domain.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 10 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  11. 11. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Yeah. So, I then looked around the house, and we soldeverything we possibly could. Like, including the kids slide at the back; theirslide. We sold everything, and get every penny and poured it into domains.Michael Cyger: Wow! So let me get this straight. So you went in thebackyard. You saw the play system you bought a year before for your kids.You said, Sorry kids. Theres a school down the street you can go play at,and you sold that. Sold your Walkman. Whatever you had, you sold. Andhow much did you raise? How much did you raise?Michael Gilmour: Well, it was across a period of time. We probably raisedabout five thousand bucks or something like that. It was like I had this thingthat just said, I need cash now! And I couldnt get credit cards. Because weessentially had no income or anything. So I couldnt (Unclear 15:02.8) fromthose sources. So I just got it.Michael Cyger: So over a period of time, how long did you raise the fivethousand dollars?Michael Gilmour: Over a few months.Michael Cyger: A few months. And then, what did you do with that fivethousand dollars?Michael Gilmour: We just bought domains. Let me tell you the story. Thesecond domain I bought was; I think it was - from memory - RBCMP3 (dot)com. It was something like that.Michael Cyger: RBCMP3 (dot) com. Something like that.Michael Gilmour: It was something like that. And that made me preciselyzero money. And I reregistered that domain every single year because itreminded me to ask the question, Where does the traffic come from? It was arussian music site, and you really couldnt monetize that traffic at that time.Michael Cyger: Yeah. Wow.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 11 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  12. 12. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Yeah. So it was like an eight buck training course I wenton every year; to remind me to ask where the traffic.Michael Cyger: So were gonna get into why Bigpap (dot) com even madefifty cents to begin with, but Im gonna put that aside for right now. So therest of the story is, you saved up five thousand bucks over a few months. Andthen you put it all into domains. Do you remember how many domains youowned after you spend that five thousand dollars?Michael Gilmour: I cant remember.Michael Cyger: No?Michael Gilmour: I really cant. What actually happened is that - I rememberthis distinctly - I got to earning. Like, I was acquiring domains. And back inthose days, you were looking at Alexa. You were looking at Overturerankings. All that sort of stuff. Yeah, and you do whatever you could to beable to source the traffic. And so, what I then did was, it raised the portfolioup to about twenty bucks a day. Sorry, two bucks fifty a day. I called up mybrother. And I said to him, Guess what? Im earning two bucks fifty a dayfrom my portfolio. And he said, Michael, you can now buy like a burger aMcDonalds and a coke. Come on, get a life. Then it went to like twenty-fivebucks a day. Then fifty bucks a day. And I kept on reinvesting; just constantreinvestment. And then a hundred bucks a day. And about a hundred bucks aday, people started going quiet. Like they were just completely like slingingoff at me up until then. Then a hundred bucks a day. And at about twohundred bucks a day, all my friends wanted to get involved. And then atabout four hundred bucks a day, I began to get calls from people saying,Heck, youre in this interesting business. And Im thinking, I havent spokento you in like ten years. And they all say can you get me some domainnames. And Id say to them, No. Im getting them for myself.Michael Cyger: Right. Exactly.Michael Gilmour: And it just kept on growing from there. And it just kept ongoing up, and up, and up.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 12 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  13. 13. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: So you started with five thousand dollars worth of domains,and you were making two dollars and fifty cents a day, then twenty-fivedollars a day, then a hundred dollars a day; reinvesting the profits that youremaking off the portfolio. Heres the question that everybody wants to know.How did you pay your bills? How did you have kids? Why didnt your wifedivorce you? You know, if youre spending all your money on domains, howdid you make your life work?Michael Gilmour: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thats an interesting question. I think mywife is too busy working herself, just to make sure we paid the bills, todivorce me, so.Michael Cyger: That works out. If you dont have any money to contribute tothe family because youre reinvesting it and everything, then your spouse oryour partner has to work twice as hard.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. I was also doing. I actually do some consulting typework in that sort of stuff in the space. I understand the Internet and how itworks. And so, as well as doing all these things, I was doing that sort of stuffas well. And that was pretty full on.Michael Cyger: Alright.Michael Gilmour: So I was working eighteen hour plus days. On domains, Iwasnt just a hundred percent domain because I couldnt afford to be, as yousaid. Like, how do I turn my computer on if you havent paid your powerbill?Michael Cyger: Right. Exactly. If they shut off the Internet, you cant buydomain names.Michael Gilmour: Exactly. Yeah. So it was. Like, we even went to the stage,and we rented our lounge room out to another business. So we had anotherbusiness for a period of time running in our lounge room in order to raisecash.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 13 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  14. 14. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: Wow.Michael Gilmour: So when I say we raised cash, I mean we did anything. Wehad students stay with us. Like, foreign students would come. Theyd need tostay for like a few weeks or something like that. And so, we had a house fullof foreign students as well.Michael Cyger: Wow. Alright. So before we jump into these points that wetalked about in the intro Michael, I need to ask you, how many domains doyou own today? And how many of them are parked?Michael Gilmour: Okay. About ninety-nine percent of my domains areparked, or are being monetized in some way.Michael Cyger: Yep.Michael Gilmour: I personally own about five hundred domains now. Maybepart of my story I should say, I sold out a whole lot of my portfolio.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: But Im involved in portfolios of about twenty odd dabsand thirty thousand domains.Michael Cyger: Okay. So you personally own five hundred. I assume thatyou park them all with Park Logic, your company?Michael Gilmour: Of course.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Why wouldnt I? Its the best place.Michael Cyger: Are you willing to go on record and tell the audience howmuch you earn from your parked domains?Michael Gilmour: They heyday, or now?Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 14 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  15. 15. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: Both.Michael Gilmour: I prefer to keep.Michael Cyger: Lets talk about the heyday. During the heyday, this was inthe past. Its not being done anymore. What was the highest revenue that youearned per day on your domains?Michael Gilmour: Thousands a day.Michael Cyger: How much?Michael Gilmour: Thousands.Michael Cyger: Thousands. Ten thousand? Five thousand?Michael Gilmour: Yeah, Ill leave it as that. Thats pretty enough. Put it thisway. The electricity bill was paid for.Michael Cyger: Alright. So in the heyday, you earned thousands of dollarsper day on your domain names, of which you may of actually owned more atthat time since youve mentioned that youve sold off. Are you willing to sayhow much you earn today on average, per day?Michael Gilmour: No.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Enough. Let me tell you what Ive done. Ive moved froman active manager of my domains, to an investor. And so, what Ive done is,although I have the company Park Logic; it manages all domains. But frompersonal perspective, I just get a return on my investment.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 15 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  16. 16. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Yeah. I used to completely outsource that. And so, I donthave to think about my domains anymore or anything. I just know that thesystems process this stuff, and all the systems handle it.Michael Cyger: Well, let me as you this then. What your return on investmentfor your five hundred domains that you own today?Michael Gilmour: Oh, my return on investment. A few hundred percent peryear.Michael Cyger: A few hundred percent per year. So at least three hundredpercent per year.Michael Gilmour: Yes.Michael Cyger: So if you own one domain, and you paid a hundred dollarsfor it, youre getting three hundred dollars per year on that one domain.Michael Gilmour: Yes.Michael Cyger: Okay. And you own five hundred domains, and you spent alot of money for it; most of which probably werent hand registrations.Michael Gilmour: So the majority of my domain investment, now, is actuallya part of a (Unclear 22:37.0) kit, who has a share of portfolio domains.Michael Cyger: Got it.Michael Gilmour: Portfolio of domains actually.Michael Cyger: Alright. Well, hundreds of percent sounds much better thanthe one percent I think I get from my savings bank here in the United States,and definitely better than the maybe five or six percent that Im getting frommy portfolio right now. So lets jump into the recommendations formaximizing parking revenue. In the beginning, we talked about a fewdifferent things that we need to do. You said that the first thing that needs tobe done is you need to own domains that get traffic.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 16 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  17. 17. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Thats correct.Michael Cyger: Alright.Michael Gilmour: Thats actually critical. The number of people who come tome that say, Michael can we go, and I want you to monetize our domains. Isay, Fantastic. Do they have traffic? And they say, No. And I go, Well,what does the advertiser want? You know, its sort of like, come on. Andthey say, Well, we thought you could just wave your magic wand andsuddenly wed start earning money. And so many people have been burnedbecause they just go along and they get excited about domains, and they juststart registering domains, and they have no relevance for advertisers; notraffic. Its bad news.Michael Cyger: Okay. So let me ask you this. I dont even.Michael Gilmour: Where do you find them?Michael Cyger: No. Im gonna take five steps before that! I dont even knowif my domains are getting traffic. I know, Im terrible. I am the worst. I am adomain developer; thats my only excuse. I dont even know if some of thedomains I own are getting traffic. They dont resolve. They dont do anything.What do I need to do first?Michael Gilmour: The first thing you do is you need to get those numbers.And you get those numbers from, like. As a domain developer, using GoogleAnalytics.Michael Cyger: Well, but most of them arent even on web sites. And I canteven put it in Google Analytics. What do I do to see if its even getting trafficon any of the domains?Michael Gilmour: Send the domains. Just park the domains.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 17 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  18. 18. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: Park em any place. I can go to your companys Park Logic. Ican go to Ceto. I can go to GoDaddy. Park em, and theyll give me freeinformation on what kind of traffic.Michael Gilmour: Thats correct.Michael Cyger: Okay. So I get them parked. What kind of traffic do I need tosee in order for it to tell me that I should be doing something with thisdomain?Michael Gilmour: Okay. The rules that we apply is that if a domain has oneunique per day, you wanna keep that domain.Michael Cyger: Thats it. One unique per day. And not me; somebody else.Michael Gilmour: Well, if it makes eighty percent of the registration cost, wewould re-register the domain.Michael Cyger: Okay. Alright. What if it wasnt hand registered? What if Ibought it for fifty bucks off DN Forum?Michael Gilmour: For what purpose?Michael Cyger: I thought it was gonna make some money. I went and parkedit. If it doesnt get eighty percent of that fifty dollars that I paid for it, is itworth keeping?Michael Gilmour: No, I say its eighty percent of the registration cost.Michael Cyger: Okay. Whatever I paid to register it every year. The ongoingregistration.Michael Gilmour: Thats true. The ongoing.Michael Cyger: Okay. I got it. So at least one unique visitor per day. Thatdoesnt seem like a very high threshold to get over.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 18 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  19. 19. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: No, it really is if you think about it. Youve gotta makesay, eight bucks, eight bucks fifty per year on (dot) com. Depending on whatyoure paying for registration fees. Yeah, so its evidently doable with oneunique a day. And if you get twenty cents a click, and you have lets say tenpercent click through rate, then its close enough to eight bucks, you know.Its very closeMichael Cyger: Okay. Alright. So, I take my domains; I move them over to aparking company. I see how much traffic theyre getting. If theyre gettingtraffic, then. Or lets stop there. So if theyre getting traffic, then I wanna parkem. If theyre not getting traffic, dont renew em, right? Or try and sell themsomebody else.Michael Gilmour: Thats correct. I think that the important thing to alwaysask yourself is, what is the business model that youre using for yourdomains? Is the business model, this day, a very, very good brandabledomain that you managed to acquire somehow, and so you wanna sell it for amillion bucks? Or is it a traffic domain, which youre gonna go and park? Oris this particular domain just a whole series of them, which like stock itemsthat shot, and you wanna sell them for like seven hundred bucks a shot,which is roughly the average price; a thousand bucks a shot for a domain fora small business. And so, you wanna move your business model from a onepercent per year stock turn to two percent year stock turn. So thats the thingyou need to be very really clear on is for your domains, is what you actuallyhave as your business model.Michael Cyger: So I get that. And everybody thats doing domain nameinvesting, I agree, they should have a business model. But in all three ofthose. But they dont; I agree. But in all three of those cases, until theyremaking money or whatever, until they decide what they wanna do, or untilthey find a small business owner to buy it, they wanna park it and earn somerevenue.Michael Gilmour: Well, absolutely. Like, lets face it. If youre not parkingright now your domains, youre earning zero. So anything above zero is good.Im a pretty simple guy. Anything above zero is a good number.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 19 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  20. 20. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: So I park my domains, Michael. I, you know, I like mydomains. I dont wanna give em up even if theyre not making any moneybecause I bought em because I have a business idea for em, or I think its justa great brandable domain name. But lets say I wanna go out, and I actuallywanna acquire. I wanna diversify my income stream. Im holding on to somedomain names, which I know arent gonna generate revenue, but later on Imgonna hopefully sell for a nice little A. But I wanna have some domain that Idont wanna sell. I just wanna keep them for parking. What kind of domainnames do I wanna buy that I know are gonna do well in parking?Michael Gilmour: Yeah, thats a really interesting question. Look, the bestdomain names to buy - and people hate me saying this - is typos. Typos ofkeywords and things like that, so youre not infringing trademarks. Or somepeople buy typos of trademarks, which I think it would inherit a legal risk.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: They really do. And particularly a lot of the trademarkowners are becoming more aggressive around that. But typos of keywords isfine. Or you can get keywords; its good. Personally, I actually didnt invest ahuge amount of money in (dot) COMs. I looked at the rest of the world, said,Look. Ill let everyone fight over (dot) COMs, and Ill have the rest of worldthank you very much. So I went and got CO.UKs, DEs, ATs; all that sort ofstuff. So I looked at the rest of the world, and said, okay, where is there verylarge economies. I also looked where theres a high penetration of creditcards. Because then the advertiser who buys with their credit card onlineadvertising can then seek a return, because they got a web site where peopleare buying with credit cards. And so, I looked at that. And I began just to buyup in those jurisdictions, and I let everyone else fight over (dot) COMs. Justgo for it guys. So I bought a lot of (dot) ESs; a lot of IN, for India. And Ifound that they were extremely lucrative (Unclear 29:55.9). But theinteresting thing is its sort of like the (Unclear 29.58.7) analogy. Whileeveryone else is trying to build them on, which is like three miles deep withall this sort of stuff, Im there strip-mining other countries. So it was just a(Unclear 30:11.3) goal. Just lying around the place. Still no ones doinganything about it because its not a (dot) com so it cant be good. And Imthinking, I go to these conferences year, after year, after year, and everyoneMichael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 20 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  21. 21. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  will only talk about (dot) COMs. Take a look a the auctions at theconferences, and theres only (dot) COMs.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: And I just smile. I just sit back. And Im there with myEuropean friends in particular, and were just smiling. And were going, Keepgoing. Just keep emphasizing (dot) com. And let me tell you, were justbuying up everything.Michael Cyger: Alright. So now everythings bought because of guys like youand your friends that went into auctions in other countries besides the US andbought em all. So what is a new entrepreneur, whos trying to get out of theirdaily job, Michael; they dont wanna be in the rat race anymore. They wannacontrol their own destiny. What kind of domain names can they buy today?You said make by trademarks, if youre willing to risk legal action, which,you know, I do not recommend.Michael Gilmour: No, Id steer clear of them.Michael Cyger: By typos of generic words.Michael Gilmour: Yeah.Michael Cyger: So, if somebodys typing in diapers, which, you know, we gothrough a lot over here with a one year old in my house, getting some sort oftypographical error of diapers; if its not a trademark, which I dont think it is.I know it was bought my Amazon - Diapers (dot) com. So that would getmore traffic because people are just mistyping things. Are there any generalrules regarding typos that people should?Michael Gilmour: What you gotta understand is that most people, like Imtalking about the professional domainers.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 21 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  22. 22. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: They build typo machines. And they said, okay. Im goingto typo every single word in the English language, and youll see if thatdomain has traffic; that particular domain. And when I say strip-mining, thereis people who are doing this with millions of domains a day they are testing.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, okay. So, they are just completely going foranything that moves the traffic. So if I was to say to someone, what wouldyou do to buy a registered domains, I would go to CCTLDs. Okay. Becauseparticularly (dot) com has been completely stripped out. I would also thenplay it into trends. Like, you pick up your newspaper or something of value;look online. You suddenly see there are these different strange words.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: I go and Id begin to sort of buy some domains aroundthere. Like, solar energy and that sort of stuff, for example. You see a trendhappening there. Or you can go into some of the forums and things like that,and rather than buying individual domains, you buy a portfolio of domains.And your pay could cost two to three years revenue or something like that;depending on the quality of the portfolio. Like, I must admit, like when I buya portfolio, now, of domains, or any domains, we put them into the ParkLogic system, and it allows us to bench mark them against an industry riskindex weve created; which we allow all of our customers to see. So it givesus an idea of the financial risk of a particular portfolio.Michael Cyger: Okay. So if Im gonna buy a domain portfolio, the generalrule that you think is a good measure and practice is to look at the revenue forthat portfolio over a year, and then pay two times that.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, two times that; two and a half times. That sort ofstuff. That sort of range.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 22 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  23. 23. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Like the market will be what the market is. And sometimesyou get distressed sellers, and sometimes you get what you want.Michael Cyger: There are quite a few distressed sellers unfortunately. Justdue to the market conditions. So you might be able to pick up a decentportfolio now.Michael Gilmour: Oh, absolutely. Like theres a lot of people who theybought their portfolios in the past based upon raising capital either via equityor raising capital with debt. And now, say some of their parking earnings hasgone down, and so now theyre struggling to pay debts and so forth.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: And that becomes a really big issue. And so, theyrewilling to sell. Theyre selling the capital value.Michael Cyger: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we talked about which domain namesare the best domain names to focus on. And then your next step was therewas once you get the domain names, you need to figure out how to monetizethem.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. The number one rules is this: do not put all yourdomains with a single provider; a single parking company. Do not. If you dothat, you are losing money. I tell people this over and over again. I feel likeIm a broken record. If you put all your domains with a single place, you arelosing money. And you may have made if you say, Well, Michael. Im notlosing money because I was earning ten bucks a day at this one place. Imoved to another place, and now Im earning twelve dollars a day. So Im notlosing money. Okay, no. What you need to understand is on a domain bydomain basis, some will do better and some will do worse. So what youactually wanna do is break apart your portfolio, and find out where theyre alldoing better. And by the way, that changes on a daily basis.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 23 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  24. 24. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: So its a complex thing. And I recommend to people that tomanage your own portfolio in todays day and age, is a bad idea. Dont. Youget your spreadsheets out; all that extra stuff. My recommendation is, go toone of the aggregators, whether its Park Logic, whether its any of the others- I dont really care -, but get your domains, go with someone which has builtsystems over years, which allows you to go on, spread your traffic to thehighest paid solutions.Michael Cyger: So you wanna go with a provider that monetizes throughdifferent opportunities.Michael Gilmour: Yeah.Michael Cyger: And they have a logic. They have algorithm that shouldoptimize this domain goes best for Legion; this domain goes best for GoogleAdsense; this domain goes best for this revenue stream.Michael Gilmour: Yeah.Michael Cyger: And being able to optimize those.Michael Gilmour: Thats correct. So theyve built a system, which allows theoptimization of the traffic.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Now the thing you need to understand about that is thatoptimization of traffic is as much about revenue loss minimization as it isabout revenue maximization. Let me explain. Lets imagine Ive got adomain; Im earning a dollar a day for one place. And Im thinking, Well,maybe this other place will allow me to earn more. So I send a bit of trafficover there, and it earns eighty cents. That information has cost me twentycents. So how can you get that information, but at a reduced cost? And thatsreally what true optimization is all about. And weve spent; Ive spent nowprobably six years doing this sort of thing.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 24 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  25. 25. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: And Park Logic the last five years. So its a tough, toughjob.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: Requires lots of computing power. And to be able to do allthis.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: But if youre not doing something like that, then I canactually guarantee youre losing money.Michael Cyger: So you say not to go with one parking provider, but is thateven a good solution? Isnt a better solution to go with an aggregator?Somebody that, you know.Michael Gilmour: Yes.Michael Cyger: Because if I go to just one provider, and to be honest withyou, I dont even know enough about the parking situation to say company Aonly uses Google Adsense, you know. Isnt it better to go with an aggregatorthat could say I use Adsense; I use two different type of layout systems; I use,you know, provider B,C, and D, and advertisers A and B, and you know,brings it all in? I cant just use that solution. I need an aggregator solution.Michael Gilmour: Thats good. Let me separate things out. Youve gotParking companies, and the typical parking company will have a singleadvertiser source. Like, a Google or Yahoo.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Typically would be. Alright. Then youre gonna have theaggregators, who just sit on top of them. And realistically, what an aggregatordoes is they traffic in, and they say, At this point in time, for this day, whosgonna pay the most for this traffic. Its like an auction system on domain byMichael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 25 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  26. 26. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  domain basis. Whos gonna pay the most. And I know thats what we do, sowe then send the traffic to those places.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: This is a number of benefits for a particularly newdomainer. The first benefit is you get to be a part of somewhat a scale. Sowere managing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of domains right now.But if you go in with your three hundred domains and say to a parkingcompany, Id like a really good deal, theyll smile politely and say, Yeah, wegive you the best deal youre gonna get. And people are like, Really? Woah.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: And if you go and put domains with an aggregator, youautomatically get part of the big deal. Because the aggregators have got sucha scale.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: And so, I would recommend, just for that; forget all theoptimization, if you get all the traffic and stuff like that, do that. Theaggregator will take a cut of the action. Its worth every penny.Michael Cyger: Yeah. Okay. And how many?Michael Gilmour: If you ask for someone else, I dont care. But its worthevery penny.Michael Cyger: So, not to make this a promotional video for Park Logic, buthow many revenue sources do you plug into your system? If you had to countthem all, how many do you have? How many are there?Michael Gilmour: Over time we probably use about twenty to twenty-fivesources.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 26 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  27. 27. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Right now weve cut it back to about ten sources ofrevenue.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: And the reason why is this. The more sources of revenueyou have, the more testing you have to do, and the more twenty centss youlose.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: From the example before.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: So you actually want. Its a very sophisticated algorithm onhow you gain information and not lose revenue.Michael Cyger: Yeah. So if I give you one domain, and you look at it, youmay say, Well, its similar to this domain over here. So I can minimize theserevenue sources, and then do less testing to get you to a maximum revenue.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, theres all sorts of things that we do.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: Theres stuff such as you never send the same IP address tothe same parking provider within a twenty-four hour window.Michael Cyger: Interesting. Okay.Michael Gilmour: Because they dont count the second (Unclear 40:51.4).Michael Cyger: Right. So thats one way that you maximize the revenue forthe domain owner. Okay.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 27 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  28. 28. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: We do many interesting things like match lunch time inBerlin with lunch time in LA. Because you wanna be able to work at differenttimes when advertisers are working and that sort of stuff. So theres a lot ofsophistication in what a good aggregator will do.Michael Cyger: Alright. Great. So we talked about buying good domainnames, and which domain names might be better. We talked about notputting all your eggs in one basket; dont go with one provider. When you gowith a provider, go with an aggregator that can dynamically drive traffic tothe highest bidder. We also talked in the pre-interview, Michael, about bestmatching the keywords to the traffic thats coming to that domain name.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. Yeah, a good aggregator should be able to do a lotof this work for you. Is that theyve been tracking keywords for years, andyears, and years, and that sort of stuff. And so, they should automaticallybegin to put this into place for you. You wanna get relevance. So increase theclick through rate to make sure youre matching the traffic to the advertisers.And the second thing you wanna do is then find out what is the highestpaying keyword in that. And by the way, that changes all the time.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: You cant set your keyword and say forget it. It changes allthe time. So there needs to be systems in place. Like, personally, if I was toget into the domain industry now, I would definitely go with an aggregatorwho had all the tools - the system - to do this. Because then you can treat it asan investment. You know its being looked after. You put the domains overhere with this aggregator and theyre doing all these things. And then you cango along and spend your time trying to find better domains.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, and developing more competency in finding thedomains. And spend the time doing that. And then push them across.Michael Cyger: Got it.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 28 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  29. 29. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Thats what I would do right now. And thats forgetting ofIm involved in Park Logic and stuff. So it just makes logical sense.Michael Cyger: So if I wanna focus only on the domains that are generatinggood revenue from parking, I can follow these steps. I can move them over toan aggregator like Park Logic. I can let you do your work. And then I canfocus more on buying more domains, or taking whatever earnings I have andfocus on buying more domains. And my benchmarks are if theyre getting atleast one unique visitor per day or Im generating eighty percent of myregistration cost for that domain per year; then its probably a good domainname to keep.Michael Gilmour: Absolutely.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Absolutely. So I would definitely be looking to domainsthat have that sort of profile.Michael Cyger: Okay. Sounds good. So when it comes to parking today,Michael, how much should somebody spend on a domain name that theyreexpecting to monetize with parking?Michael Gilmour: I lost a piece of string. If you a domain names doing tenthousand uniques a day, you know; like ten thousand uniques a day, then, youknow, its how much do I wanna spend, because that domain may earn me athousand bucks a day.Michael Cyger: Okay. Let me phrase it this way. If I bought a domain nametoday, I should expect to receive fifty percent of that investment per year.Thats the benchmark that you use, right?Michael Gilmour: Yep.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 29 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  30. 30. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: If I was buying from someone else. If I was registering adomain name - hand registering -, typically speaking, youre looking at abouta return.Michael Cyger: Okay. So if I hand register it, its completely clear. Immaking my own judgment. Im buying that domain name. I move it to aservice like yours. I measure how many uniques per day and how muchrevenue Im generating. Its cut and dry; black and white. I know whether Imgonna keep it or let it drop.Michael Gilmour: Yes.Michael Cyger: I wanna buy a domain name from somebody. I think itsgonna be good. Its got insurance in the word. Its relatively short. Whatevermy reasons for buying the domain name. How much should I spend on thedomain name given I dont know what kind of information that domain namehas? You know, the current owner is on a discussion forum, lets say. Let megive you a scenario. Hes on a discussion forum. He says that it gets sometraffic. I ask him for revenue. He says he doesnt have any revenue numbers.What do I do when I wanna buy a domain name, Im gonna spend more thanregistration cost, and [Sorry. My video just blanked out.] I wanna make agood decision for buying that for parking, Michael. What do yourecommend?Michael Gilmour: Okay. What I think youre actually asking is this. Its acouple of questions. The first one is due diligence. How do I know what Imbuying is actually what Im really buying?Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: Okay. If Im buying a forum, the first thing Id look at -you go to DM Forum, or something like that - is how many posts has thisperson done.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 30 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  31. 31. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: And you can see; if theyve done like a thousand posts, youknow that theyre an established person.Michael Cyger: Theyve been around for a while.Michael Gilmour: Yep.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: Exactly. So dont buy from strangers. Thats the rule. Thatsthe first thing Id look at. If someone cannot provide you with revenue stats,or they cant provide you with traffic stats, I would be very, very nervous.Michael Cyger: Because if they had traffic, theres no reason they shouldntbe monetizing it.Michael Gilmour: If not, it could be all bots. It could all be electronicallydriven, so its like the reason why theyre not showing you revenue stats isbecause there isnt any.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: So the only time Id ever buy a domain which just hadtraffic stats would be if I was buying off a personal friend.Michael Cyger: Okay. So if you knew them and trusted them, thats onething. But if you dont know the person, they gotta provide traffic stats andthey have to provide revenue stats.Michael Gilmour: Yep.Michael Cyger: Otherwise you wouldnt buy it personally.Michael Gilmour: I wouldnt buy it.Michael Cyger: Okay. So when they provide you the traffic stats, and it saysthat theres five unique per day; and they provide you the revenue stats, and itMichael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 31 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  32. 32. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  says its making two hundred dollars a year, you would probably pay fourhundred dollars for that domain name.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, four to five hundred bucks for that domain.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: And it depends. Like the other thing I would look at is ittrademark infringing? If its trademark infringing, then I go, Oh, hang on asecond here. Or if they say typo of a keywords, so theres no legal issues overit, then that alters the (Unclear 47:23.4) profile.Michael Cyger: Definitely.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, so Im very wary of the trademark type situations.Michael Cyger: Okay. So that makes perfect sense. So were talking return oninvestment that you wanna see fifty percent per year. Alright. So I waslooking through. I receive a few different newsletters per day, which I think alot of domain entrepreneurs do. They sign up for the newsletters. They comein. Theyre sort of an amalgamation from a broker of multiple domain namesthat were for sale. My inbox showed an email today. It was a three letterdomain name. It looked like decent letters. And you know, three, four lettershave a good price; three letters have even better. I think it was listed for abouttwenty thousand dollars.Michael Gilmour: Yep.Michael Cyger: And they said that it generated a thousand dollars per year inparking.Michael Gilmour: Yep.Michael Cyger: With two thousand type-ins per month. Good buy or not agood buy?Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 32 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  33. 33. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Okay, theres a couple of things about this. If I was buyingit purely on the parking revenue, its a bad buy. And because why Im gettinga twenty year return investment here. Ill put my money somewhere else.Michael Cyger: Alright.Michael Gilmour: But if Im buying it because its a good three letter domain,which has a generic value - Im not sure what the letters were for this domain-, then hey, absolutely. Keep it.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, and go after it. Because your business model then ismigrating from one of pure traffic to I think I can sell this domain for morethan twenty thousand dollars. Thats essentially what youre saying.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: Well, I think I can build a site on this domain, which willgenerate more than twenty thousand bucks a year.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: And youll take a look at a couple of things. You look atyour opportunity cost, and you look at the actual cost. So if youre buyingdomains saying, you know what? I think this is a great domain. Im gonnabuild it out. Im gonna build a business on it. Theres an opportunity costassociated with that, so you gotta take that into account.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: All those different things. So in terms of pricing, andsomeones asking for twenty thousand bucks for a particular domain, thoseare the sort of things I think about. Look its a tough one, yeah?Michael Cyger: Yeah. No, thats great advice. Because I was interminglingtwo separate valuations. You know, one is the valuation based just on theMichael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 33 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  34. 34. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  parking, and then the other one is the inherent value in a three letter genericdomain name; and theres only a certain number of three letter genericdomain names available. So it does have a value associated with it, you justhave to wait for your payday to show up.Michael Gilmour: Thats the thing; is that you are waiting for your payday.So what youre saying is this domain is worth more than twenty thousanddollars.Michael Cyger: Yep.Michael Gilmour: And thats essentially what youre saying. So then you askyourself today is it worth more than twenty thousand dollars, or is ittomorrow? And if its tomorrow, then theres time cost value of capital.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. And so, could I use that twenty thousand dollars forsomething else versus buying this particular domain?Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: I think that one of the difficulties that occurred over theyears, though I saw it anyway, was that you had domainers; they created theaftermarket. And so, they began just buying domains and all that sort of stuff.And you get people; its like a collection. I remember, as a kid, I used tocollect hockey cards and this sort of stuff. And Id say, Oh, Ive got that one.Ive got that one. Youre very proud because you got the set, you know. Andits the same thing with domainers. It was like an addiction. They would juststart buying domains, and it pushed prices up. Yeah, and they look at them;they go, Ive got twenty thousand domain names now. Theyve got asubstantial registration bill each year. And theyre look at these domainnames and they say, Im gonna build them out one day. And I go, You gottabe kidding me! Its twenty thousand domain names! Youve got no chance.This is why I like; I went into the parking space. Because its scalable. Is thatI can park twenty thousand domains. And, you know, I can pick one of thosedomains, and I actually recommend to people always get one domain youreMichael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 34 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  35. 35. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  passionate about and build it out. Like I have Downwind (dot) com. Anddown wind is an aviation term that every pilot has to say when they land theirplanes and everything. And I built a web site on that, because Im passionateabout aviation. I love flying. Im a pilot as well. And so now Ive got thirtypercent of the pilots in Australia attend and go to the site each month.Michael Cyger: Wow.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. And so, I always say to people, get something yourepassionate about and build a business on that. But dont try to say, Im gonnabuild ten thousand domains. Ive seen, over the years, so many people burnso much money on development, and not get a return.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: Because the first question I always ask people and theysay, Oh, Im developing this domain. I go, Great. And whats the businessmodel? Wheres the business plan? Oh, no, no. Im developing it. I go(Unclear 52:36.8) a second here. Its no longer a technological problem tobuild a web site.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: Just get WordPress, Joomla, or something like that. And Iwork that, I can now build a web site in about an hour and a half. Yeah. So Ican build with lots of content; all that sweet stuff. Just there it is.Michael Cyger: Yep.Michael Gilmour: Very, very quick. Yeah. So I can go ahead and do all that.So its not a technology problem. Its a management focus problem. I couldbuild a web site, but how am I gonna get revenue on this thing?Michael Cyger: Right. Are you generating revenue right now with Downwind(dot) com?Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 35 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  36. 36. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Yeah. Yeah. And the best part about it is because I can runall my flying through that as a business because its a real business. And so, Iget to claim all my flying on tax.Michael Cyger: Exactly. All your person. I dont know what the equivalentIRS is down in Australia, but clearly its allowed.Michael Gilmour: (Unclear 53:32.8).Michael Cyger: And yeah, exactly. Alright. Fantastic. So come up with thebusiness plan. And then if you love what you do, then you can run yourpersonal expenses maybe through the business if youre using it for businessexpenses also. Let me ask you this, Michael. Do parking companies chargefor their service? You know, if I used a sophisticated parking service thathelps me manage my portfolio and uses sophisticated algorithms withmanaging multiple providers, should I expect to pay money for that like Ipay, you know, a money manager to manage my money?Michael Gilmour: If youre not paying money, dont go with them. Becauseyoull get exactly what you paid for. Put it this way. If you went to a moneymanager and you said, Id like to put my money with you. And you go,Well, whats your fees? And they say, Oh, we dont charge at all. Whats thefirst thing you think? You get very suspicious. Everyone needs to makemoney.Michael Cyger: Well, theyre making money somehow. Otherwise theyre notgonna stay in business.Michael Gilmour: Yeah, thats my exact point.Michael Cyger: But the question is, do you pay them a flat fee regardless ofwhether they make you money or not? Or do they only make money; youknow, I know theres money managers out there that only take a percentageof the profits that they produce for you. So theyve got skin in the game.Michael Gilmour: Yeah. Maybe I can talk from Park Logics perspective,because I cant comment on other peoples.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 36 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  37. 37. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: Okay. That sounds good.Michael Gilmour: Okay. Well, what we looked at in the early, early days; welooked at doing a percentage of the upside. And we found just that just endedin tears. Like its the upside in December; its the upside in June. Like whatare we comparing here, so lets just start. And we said, Look. That justdoesnt work. Like everyone gets upset about it. Everyone thinks theyreripped off. So we said, Look. Lets take a percentage of the revenue, andwell take a lower percentage.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: And so, what we do now is we charge between, or we payout, between seventy-five to eighty-five percent. Depending upon the size ofthe portfolio.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour: We also charge a twenty dollar a month fee. And thereason why we charge twenty bucks a month is because we dont want; inAustralia we have a term called tire-kickers. People decide for (Unclear55:50.6) end up doing nothing with it. And you sit there and you think, Well,I wanna get rid of those people.Michael Cyger: Right. Right.Michael Gilmour: We wanna do business with people who wanna dobusiness, you know.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: So we start a twenty bucks a month, and it seems to solvethat problem. And so between twenty-five to fifteen percent. Fifteen totwenty-five percent we charge.Michael Cyger: Okay.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 37 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  38. 38. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: And, typically speaking, you get that over, and over, andover again. Plus we developed a very sophisticated platform. Not only that; iswhen you log into our interface, it says this is how much your domain hasmade for the month. And then it says, this is how much Park Logic charged.So you had a thousand bucks in a month. Park Logic charged a hundred andfifty bucks or something - whatever it was -, and this is what your payoutwas. Were completely transparent. You can do the math, and gee, you knowwhat? Its exactly what they said they would charge.Michael Cyger: Right. Right.Michael Gilmour: Versus I find. One of the difficulties I find in this industryis the lack of transparency. It is you do not know what you get paid.Michael Cyger: Right. If I display a Google Adsense banner on my web site,I know Im getting a check, but I dont know how much theyre making.Michael Gilmour: Thats right. I remember I stood at a conference. And I wasup there, and I was speaking at one. And I was tossing a coin over and overagain. And I said, You may be wondering what Im doing. And Im actuallytrying to work out what my parking earning are gonna be next month. Andwhich is a bit of concern, because people will say to you. Quite a number ofparking companies will say to you, Oh, youre on seventy percent, or Youreon eighty percent. My immediate reaction is eighty percent of what?Michael Cyger: Right. So, Michael, just to clarify. Youre saying youregetting seventy percent. And then youre saying seventy percent of what,because they may have expenses. And they may say, Well, my expenses aregonna be higher this month, or My expenses are gonna be lower this month.And they can basically adjust it to whatever they see fit. And they dont haveto tell you. Theyre just saying Your net is...seventy percent.Michael Gilmour: Thats correct.Michael Cyger: Okay,Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 38 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  39. 39. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Thats correct. And the problem that happened when theindustry is in the infancy, like a lot of really bad activity was done. Becauseessentially, the prime (Unclear 58:14.3) set their own EPC rates; earnings perclick rates. And when people left the companies, some of this informationbegan to get out. Yeah, its sort of like, do you realize what so and so isactually doing? Theyre ripping everyone off and so forth.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: And you know, it leaves a bad taste in everyone mouth.Michael Cyger: Oh, yeah.Michael Gilmour: Oh, yeah. You feel like, Im being completely ripped offhere. And in my blog - (Unclear 58:37.5) blog -, I did a whole series ontransparency. And really the biggest blockage for this industry is the lack oftransparency.Michel Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: And in any mature market, you have transparency sopeople know what theyre buying. And they know what theyre getting. So wetook a Philosophical position in Park Logic; is where ever we can possibly betransparent, we be transparent. And so, we say exactly how much we earn.Theres no hidden conditions or anything like that. This is what we have. Thisis what it is. And the number of people who said to us, Were so happysomeones actually doing this. Like the next time you got to a parkingcompany, if you arent currently parking, I would recommend to all yourviewers that they ask their account manager: Can you please post up whatyou guys are actually earning alongside what Im earning? They wont do it.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: And theyll say thing; Oh, were not allowed to do itbecause of our upstream advertising providers and all this. Thats nonsense.Just make sure you just get that information.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 39 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  40. 40. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: Yeah. And if they say, you know, We make roughly twentypercent. You know, we usually take twenty percent off the top. Thats notgood enough youre saying?Michael Gilmour: No. Not good enough.Michael Cyger: Because what they say isnt whats necessarily happening onthe account side?Michael Gilmour: Im not. Look. Theres a couple of things, here. Im notsaying that parking companies are ripping people off. Im not saying that atall. What I am saying is, there needs to be transparency. So that everyone canbe assured that it is not happening.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour: If we wanna get half a billion dollars worth of investmentinto the domain industry, then some guys gonna stand in a boardroomsomewhere and say, Guess what? I just found this new industry. Its cooldomain names, and traffic, and so forth. And I think we should invest thishalf a billion dollars into it. And the boards gonna say, Well, this soundsinteresting. Tell us about the returns and tell us the levels of transparency.Those are the sort of questions theyll ask.Michael Cyger: Right. Right.Michael Gilmour: Before they say, Do this investment.Michael Cyger: Right. Right.Michael Gilmour: And what the person will do. Theyll stand up and theyllsay, Well, you know, we just get paid. We dont know why we get paid. Wejust get paid. And that just doesnt work at serious sums of money.Michael Cyger: Right.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 40 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  41. 41. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: It just doesnt work. And the industry needs to grow up andrealize that. And so, Ive been trying to spearhead this for years; is the fastestway that I can get the value of my domains to increase is to bringtransparency. Because thatll attract more serious money. At the moment,were not getting that, and we havent for years. And its very frustrating. Solike I said, we just decided, as a company, to be as transparent as we possiblycan.Michael Cyger: Well, I respect you for doing that. And I wanna see yousucceed because I agree that the industry does need more transparency if itsever gonna grow.Michael Gilmour: Yeah.Michael Cyger: So let me ask you this, Michael, as a final question. Whatadvice do you have for domain investors who wanna get started in parkingtoday? Where do you think they should start?Michael Gilmour: Thats a really interesting question. The first thing I woulddo would be do a lot of reading. I would go to Ron Jacks and DN Journal.Fantastic load. And hes a very reputable guy. I would go to DNJournal (dot)com, and I would just read, read, read. And the other thing I would do is Iwould go to my blog. My blog is (Unclear 1:02:07.7), or go toMichaelGilmour (dot) com and itll get you there. And its G-I-L-M-O-U-R,so not O-R-E. And I would go there and theres a lot of articles there that Ivewritten over the years. And just on domain, and all the thing you can do, andthat sort of stuff. I would attend a conference. Like if you are serious aboutinvesting in a business, pay the thousand bucks and go to a conference, youknow. And the number of people you meet; ninety percent of them are reallygood people, and you can learn a lot from them. The sessions are great aswell, but personally I think the value of the conference is the people.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: And ten percent are sharks, so steer clear of them.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 41 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  42. 42. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Cyger: So let me ask you this. Is this a good tactic if I say, Hey,Michael, I heard your show on Domain Sherpa. I wanna pick your brain onsome domains Im thinking about buying, and get your thoughts on how Imight be able to monetize them. Can I buy you a drink? Is that a goodinvestment idea? For ten dollars to buy a drink, take you to the bar, and pickyour brain for ten, twenty minutes?Michael Gilmour: Absolutely.Michael Cyger: Best investment probably somebody could make?Michael Gilmour: Absolutely. Definitely do that. I would definitely dosomething. But Im not saying it because I want everyone to buy me a tendollar drink, but I would definitely do that.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: Its the two to three AM conversations, is you end up doingmost of your learning from.Michael Cyger: Yeah.Michael Gilmour: And let me tell you, Im constantly learning from otherpeople. I go out of my way. Theres people in the industry which I callregularly, talk to, and we swap ideas and that sort of stuff. Because as soon asyou say, Im now the expert and I know everything, then youre dead. Youredead in the water in this industry. Youve really just gotta keep on learning allthe time. And I think thats a mantra almost. As I say, you must always learn,learn, learn. Because it just moves so quickly as well. All the differentchanges and that sort of stuff.Michael Cyger: Definitely. Alright. If you have a follow up question, pleasepost in the comments below. Well ask Michael to come back and answer asmany of them as he can. If people wanna follow you Michael; follow whatyoure doing, what conferences youre attending, whats the best way to dothat? Youve already mentioned WizBangsBlog (dot) com. Im gonna spellthat out for the transcriber.Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 42 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  43. 43. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Just go to MichaelGilmour (dot) com.Michael Cyger: MichaelGilmour (dot) com. Are you on Twitter or Facebookalso Michael? If people wanna follow you that way.Michael Gilmour: Yes, absolutely. Just go to Facebook. Its probably the bestway. And youll see me there. Just search for me, and Ill be there. And youcan go to ParkLogic (dot) com, and theres more and more informationappearing there. ParkLogic (dot) com. And we can take you through a demoof the system. Like Ron Jackson did an article on Park Logic, and he says,the most sophisticated domain management platform hes ever seen. And webuilt it on SouthFours (dot) coms technology platform, so its all fortune fivehundred; top type of technology. Very robust. Yeah, so Im happy todemonstrate that to people if theyd like me to. And just reach out to me. Youcan send an email to MGilmour@ParkLogic.com. Its probably the best.Michael Cyger: Okay. That sounds great. And I do this a lot Michael. Imgonna urge the audience, if they found value in this interview, if they tookaway some tactics that theyre gonna go implement, please go out of yourway to find a way and say thank you to Michael through email, throughTwitter, through his Facebook, you know. And remember, when you reachout to somebody and you do something as easy as saying thank you, posting acomment below in this show, you establish your relationship. And thatrelationship can then go and blossom, and mean more in the future. So I urgeeveryone to go do that. To say thank you. And Im gonna do that right nowby, again, mentioning your web site, Michael: ParkLogic (dot) com. Andyoure blog; Ill have a link to it WizBangsBlog (dot) com. Michael Gilmour,Founder and CEO of ParkLogic (dot) com, thank you for coming on theshow, being a domain sherpa, sharing your story, and helping others becomesuccessful domain name entrepreneurs.Michael Gilmour: Thank you very much for that. Let me just say. I cantemphasize what you just said that its wonderful getting feedback, and I liketalking to people. It is good to talk to people and no question is stupid.Michael Cyger: ExcellentMichael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 43 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa
  44. 44. DomainSherpa.com:  The  Domain  Name  Authority  Michael Gilmour: Its all about the learning experience.Michael Cyger: Exactly.Michael Gilmour: So thank you very much for running this great show. Ireally do appreciate it Michael. Its good.Michael Cyger: Thank you Michael. Thank you all for watching. Well seeyou next time.Michael Gilmour: Okay, see you later everyone. Bye from down under.Watch the full video at:http://www.domainsherpa.com/michael-gilmour-parklogic-interview/Michael Gilmour (ParkLogic.com) Interview Page 44 of 44DomainSherpa.com: http://www.domainsherpa.com http://twitter.com/domainsherpa http://facebook.com/domainsherpa