Training Within Industry with Jim Hutzinger


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TWI may be the Missing Link for a successful Lean Implementation. Jim Huntzinger believes it was for him and explains why it was for Toyota also. It is a learn-by-doing approach that helps your team leaders create a high performance, cross functional team.

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Training Within Industry with Jim Hutzinger

  1. 1. Business901 Podcast Transcription Implementing Lean Marketing SystemsIntroduction to Training within Industry Guest was Jim Huntzinger Related Podcast: Is Training Within Industry (TWI) old hat? Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  2. 2. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJim Huntzinger has over twenty years’ experience developing leanenterprises through system design and development,implementation, and guiding organizations both strategically and tactically through the transformation process. Currently he is the president and founder of the Lean Accounting Summit, TWI Summit, and Lean and Green Summit. He authored the book, Lean Cost Management: Accounting for Lean by Establishing Flow , was a contributing author to Lean Accounting: Best Practices for Sustainable Integration, and hasauthored many articles including the ground-breaking article, Rootsof Lean – Training Within Industry: The Origin of Kaizen.Jim began his career as a manufacturing engineer with Aisin Seiki(a Toyota Group company and manufacturer of automotivecomponents) when they transplanted to North America to supportToyota. Over his twenty-year career, he has held positions inengineering, operations, and management working to implementand evolve lean into operational and business practices. He hasalso worked as a consultant with organizations ranging from smallprivately-held to huge global corporations.Huntzinger has also researched at length the evolution ofmanufacturing in the United States with an emphasis on leansinfluence and development. He has researched and worked to re-deploy TWI (Training Within Industry) within industry anduncovered its tie with the Toyota Way. He is also developing thehistory of Ford’s Highland Park plant and its direct tie to Toyota’sbusiness model and methods of operation. Jim can be contactedat Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  3. 3. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe Dager: Welcome everyone. This is Joe Dager, the host ofthe Business901 podcast. On the show today I have JimHuntzinger, who has over 20 years of experience guidingorganizations, both strategically and tactically, through thetransformation process. Jim has also researched, at length, theevolution of manufacture in the United States, with an emphasison leans influence and development. Currently, he is thepresident and founder of the Lean Accounting Summit, TWISummit, and the Lean and Green Summit. He has authored thebook, "Lean Cost Management", and was a contributing author to"Lean Accounting", and has authored many articles.Jim, Id like to welcome you today. One of the things I have tocompliment you on is your contributions to the Lean Edge. Couldyou tell me about that website?Jim: The Lean Edge was started and managed by Michael Bally,one of the co-authors of the book, "The Gold Mine", and they justpost particular questions. They do a really good job of posingquestions that a lot of people, that they know have that question.Then they have a variety of folks that have been involved in Leanfor a number of years, a number of authors like Pascal Dennis,Jeff Liker, Mike Rother and other people and they just giveanswers to those questions based on their experience, theirknowledge, their ideas.Joe: You really did a lot of research on the evolution of Leansinfluence and development in manufacturing in the United States.I saw an article from you back in 2002 about TWI, or TrainingWithin Industry and you called it, "The Roots of Lean", or "TheOrigin of Kaizen". Could you tell me how you got involved withTWI? Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  4. 4. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJim: I guess my nature, Im an engineer as far as education,career wise Im an accountant, but I guess Ill define myself as acurious engineer. When I was going through my Leanimplementation early on, we were doing a lot of things that a lotof companies were doing. In the early nineties and still now, a lotof companies are going through it today, which is implementingflow manufacturing along with that you have, you want StandardWork put in place in order for those lines to function consistently.You know based on TAKT time. Well, that was always a problem.We actually would put together standard work and spend a lot oftime. The engineers worked with the operational people, theoperators, the supervisors and department managers to work outgood standard work based on the same methodology that Toyotaused. The interesting thing was we still got a lot of inconsistencyfor a variety of reasons. I just always felt that there is somethingmissing, but I didnt know what that something was, somethingwas missing that Toyota or the group companies, were using,that made them more effective at it.I thought, theyre humans like everybody else, its not like theyreany smarter, theres just got to be something missing. When Istumbled upon the TWI, actually I read something about it, in acouple of books that just mentioned it briefly and it was thisWorld War II program called Training Within Industries, but I keptthinking what the heck does some World War II program havegot to do with the Toyota production system?I spend about another year or two trying to find out actually whatTWI was and then when I finally did start getting someinformation on it. It was a report written about it by the folks,who did it during World War II. This report from 1945, I was justshocked by what I was reading. I was going, "Oh my gosh, this isthe very thing that this guy had gone through, was some of thestuff that Ive gone through when I worked for The Toyota GroupCompany. Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  5. 5. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsId gone through some of the early, the original Kaizen workshopsdone by the Productivity group originally back in the early 90scalled Five Days in a Night Workshop and this was verbatim thesame thing theyre going through. What I discovered bycontinuing research in this, that TWI was developed in the UnitedStates to help us in the war effort, to help us build up our ownarmaments. It was a massive success and when we deployed it toJapan during the occupation that it got institutionalized in Japanand in the industry.Theyre still using it today and in particular, specific to Toyota. Itwas actually the very thing that Toyota had grabbed onto to helpdrive the methods they were trying to drive. They had actuallyspent nearly seven years trying to make changes in the machineshop to change it from a batch to a flow environment and theyactually struggled, like all the rest of us for quite a few years.TWI became the, I kind of called it the vehicle that they used toreally leverage and drive these changes through the machineshop, through Toyota and originally out in their supply base and itevolved into what we call today, Standard Work and Kaizen. Theyevolved it at Toyota because theyve using it for about 50 years.But the job instruction, which is how you train people, is stillbased very much in the same format as when it was deployedback during the occupation.This was this thing Ive been looking for that really makesStandard Work much more successful, much more powerful in anorganization. It also becomes just a building block on developing,you know Toyotas big on developing people, this is also one oftheir foundational building blocks they used to develop people.Joe: I find it interesting, you go back to the Charles Allen andjust his description of how similar it is to Deming, PDCA and thewhole process of continuous improvement. It seemed that its Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  6. 6. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsjust evolved, Toyota, Lean is an evolvement of these principles,and that Charles Allen developed back in 1910?Jim: They are very much so and actually Ive even traced itback... Ive been working on it in the last few years writing allthis up. You can trace the 4-Step Method that Charles Allen talksabout back around 1910 and 1920, traced that back 200 years, toactually a fellow by the name of Johann Herbert, who was aGerman philosopher and educationalist and he developed,originally a 5-Step Method to educate children with. That overtime, developed and evolved into the 4-Step Method that CharlesAllen utilized and wrote about extensively and actually becameTWI. Three of the four guys that led up the TWI program duringWorld War II, one of them actually worked for Charles Allendirectly back then and two of them had actually been trained byhim back late 1910’s.They went back to that during the war, and picked up that FourStep methodology that they used and incorporated in all four ofthe J Programs, Job instructions, Job methods, and Job Relationsinto the four-step methodology used in those. The otherinteresting thing with TWI is after the War, the workcontinued--even during the war--continued developing andevolving it, so a lot of this stuff--some of its used in the UnitedStates--a lot of it continued its development in Japan during theoccupation because a number of these guys who worked on itduring the war actually got contracts to go over to Japan to workwith them and incorporate it into the Japanese industry.So they continued to evolve it further. They did a lot of work onproblem solving, and actually colleagues of mine have beendigging this out of the National Archives. So a lot of this stuff wethought came from Japan on problem solving actually, they weredeveloping through the guys that did TWI during the occupation.A lot of things we look at coaching and mentoring evolve directlyout of TWI that they continue to work on even to this day. Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  7. 7. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsSo, its relating to Deming and all that, so thePlan-Do-Check-Act--fundamentally thats what TWIis--Plan-Do-Check-Act-- and they just continue that work evenafter the war for quite a few years, and developed some veryrobust problem solving methodologies that we can use today.Joe: I think of TWI, and if its developed during the War, it hadto be something that could be implemented very quickly. I alwayskind of look at things a little different than everybody elsesometimes, but TWI had to be implemented right now becausewe didnt have a lot of time? Time was of essence during the war.That kind of constraint puts urgency to things. Do you think thatTWI can be implemented quickly?Jim: Yes, it can. It definitely takes a concerted effort, aconcerted effort and a supported effort to do it. They even raninto that problem originally at the beginning of the War whenthey put together the TWI organization. They got these mendirectly from industry-thats why its called "Training WithinIndustry." They got these four gentlemen directly from industry,and they actually spent about the first year working on somestuff, but actually struggled, and basically their conclusionwas-because basically they were using the consulting model.They concluded that theres no way in a rapid time were going tobe able to hit all the industries, companies that we need to hit tohelp them ramp up by using the consulting model. Thats whatdrove them back to Charles Allens four-step methodology, to usethat and then what they took that four-step methodology andbasically scripted it out exactly.The training manuals that were used are completely scripted withdifferent fonts, with different meanings, timing along the side ofthe book, and a 100 percent of whats delivered in thoseprograms was scripted. And the reason why was, they usedwhats called the "multiplier effect." They knew they were goingto have to have a multitude of people-in order to deploy this Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  8. 8. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsquickly--that have no training in training to a lot of training intraining, so they had to come up with something that was simplybulletproof that would deploy the method regardless of who wasdelivering it.So they did put that together, and they went through a lot ofiterations, and actually again, continued making changes evenafter the war, and got it down to where the methodology could besuccessfully deployed if people followed the format regardless ofwho the person was delivering it.Now, you can help that out, thats part of the mentoringprocesses, the coaching processes they had and developed aswell, but youre right--youre exactly right--you had to do itquickly, and they had to do it robust enough, so that the methodswould be picked up and be utilized and be successful. And thatsvery true of what they did with that program.Joe: Now the four-step process-we really havent mentioned itfrom Allen-and its Preparation, Presentation, Application, andTesting. In reading your article, the thing that I noticed the most,and I thought was a great description of it is that Step one: thePreparation--youve got to be in the right frame of mind. Then,the Presentation, but really what it gets down to is theApplication. Unless someone can actually do it and do it correctly,the learning has absolutely no value, and we forget about thatsometimes.Jim: Thats why the mantra that they used-and actually itsinteresting because you hear this out of Toyota today-theirmantra was "Learn by Doing." Thats what they did. It was handson, you had to get out there and do it. So youre right. Step one:Prepare the Worker. Step two: Present the Operations. Three: Tryout the Performance. And then Four: Follow up. Repeat it untilthey get it, and youre comfortable that theyve gotten whateveryour training them to, and to be successful. Again that parallels Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  9. 9. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsplan- Do, Check, Act, Plan, you know, prepare the worker, Do,present the operation, Check, you know try out the performanceand Act, you know kind of the follow up. You know its a completeparallel with Plan, Do, Check, Act are basically the scientificmethodology.The other thing they would say would be, "The worker hasntlearned, the worker hasnt learned, the instructor hasnt taught."They could put the onus on the instructor in order for it to besuccessful, not just, "This guy doesnt get it." No, the guy will getit only when the instructor has been successful. So they put theonus on that instructor. That was an important key to making itsuccessful too.Joe: Why do you think TWI is kind of, do people still look at it asa backward way, something from World War Two and why hasntit been more popular, lets say than what it is? I know itssomewhat popular in the Lean manufacturing culture, but whyisnt TWI out in the forefront, lets say like Lean more? If its aPlan, Do, Check, Act, why arent people sitting there talkingabout, you know PPAT?Jim: Well, I guess it is, I guess I think it has become morepopular in the last few years. I mean thats one of the purposesof the TWI Summit is ideally we want to get it back in industryand by industry again, I dont just mean manufacturing but itsevery bit applicable in the service industry as well. Anywherewhere youre teaching people procedure, its applicable. I think itjust, I think it came down to this, we believe, you know post-war,post-World War Two, if you look at the United States situation,the global situation, is we had won the war. We had won the warby building our manufacturing infrastructure and it isnt the onlything, the only reason, but overwhelmed our opponents with asuperior output of products. Obviously war products, we hadoverwhelmed them. Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  10. 10. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsSo after the war, one, we had developed ourselves to a superiormanufacturing country as well as with the two other parts of theworld that would have been our top competitors, Asia andEurope, both those were devastated. They were done. They wereshot after the War for a number of years. We built ourselves upto the top and then had no competitors. Obviously the responseto that becomes a lot of complacency.A lot of complacency was in place after the War because we just,we didnt have the urgency anymore because of the War, wedidnt have the urgency there because of the competition.Another thing to combine with that we think might havecontributed to this was you know, since all the boys came backfrom the War and they had not been trained in these methods.And they came back and came back into their positions, into thejobs, into the companies without being trained in this. We believeat kind of a high level we think thats probably maybe the reasonswhy it diminished fairly rapidly overall.And with anything thats a change and all that, just like weveseen with Lean, even though we know its been more successful,its still been very hard and very difficult to get people to changeto it and not only change but then sustain it over the long term. Ithink the same thing applies here with TWI specifically.From a Lean perspective, I mean, as important, as foundationalas I think TWI is, theres still a lot of dynamics that obviously gointo Lean or if youre even looking at the history of Toyota, a lotof other things that played a very significant, predominant role inmaking it, you know grow into a successful organization.Joe: Tell me a little bit about the TWI Summit then, it takesTraining Within Industry to really a new level cause it, causethere wasnt one before, was there? Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  11. 11. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJim: I think this was our fourth year for the TWI Summit, it wasin May for the TWI Summit so its grown substantially each yearin the number of people that come to it. Even like the LeanAccounting Summit was in its first year, a lot of people TWI, LeanAccounting showed up and they were like, "Well, what is this TWIthing? I want to learn a little bit more about what it is." Well bothof them have matured enough although we still obviously,obviously we still have people that are learning about it, maturedenough where you have a lot more, and particularly some of thecompanies that have been doing things with Lean that knowabout it and even have done it so theyre coming with theattitude of, "We know about it or were in the process of doing itand we want to learn more, we want to become more effective atit.You know weve had some success with it", and usually you havesome backward steps too. "What can we do to be more effective?What can we do to be better at sustaining what weve alreadyaccomplished?"Were also introducing some of these things weve actually beenfinding in the archives with problem solving. The things thatarent specific TWI in the sense that the J programs are veryimportant to make them more robust and more sustainable,which is a lot of the mentoring and coaching aspects that weredeveloped, and also the problem solving methods and tools thatwere developed.Joe: Wheres Jim Huntzinger going to? Where are you headed?What are you doing with your company?Jim: Well I guess what were doing and I guess we kind ofevolved into this niche where we try to find, I guess these nichetopics. I guess what we do with our summits and things we dealwith are trying to find these niche topics under the umbrella ofLean that are there but maybe not widely known or widely Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  12. 12. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsaccepted or widely understood and then through the Summit, inparticular, and we do webinars and some other things, try to in asense, get the word out. Let people know what these things are.Let them know, not only how they integrated work in a Leanorganization, but just an organization overall.We actually this year launched another summit called, "LeanLogistics Summit." Again, something thats involved in industry,particularly from the Lean perspective and theres some examplesout there but were trying to build a community where again, thisstuff becomes commonplace.Like I said, if you looked at Lean Accounting six years ago it wasa few people kind of vaguely heard about it. Well now we have alot more companies that are practicing. We have, theres even afew companies now that are really out there on the cutting edgedeveloping things involved in finance in their organization wherethey really dont have any place to go because nobodysdeveloped this stuff yet.Thats why wed like to get more people out there on the edgedeveloping new techniques, new ideas and new methods that justhelp themselves and help other organizations be much moreeffective. You know to some degree I look at it as a consumer, aselfish consumer standpoint. If I can help organizations get betterthat means I should be able to get better products and servicesout of you know companies and that I purchase from or use.Joe Dager: If I want to get involved with Lean Accounting andto understand Lean accounting, what would you recommend asmy first step?Jim: Well, Id say, come to Lean Accounting Summit, could beone, of course, but no, actually you could go to the LeanAccounting Summit website or even the TWI website. We have aresource page on each of those. You can get on those to get Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  13. 13. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemssome articles. There are a lot of good books, especially with LeanAccounting that have been out for a number of years. There isgood information out there to go learn about what it is. There aresome other groups, blogs and other sources to get and to learninformation about this whether its reading, whether its throughblogging, like you mentioned, the Lean Edge, other things likethat out there that you can go get information and begin learningabout it.I recommend two basic things. First is do it. Like we talked aboutbefore, with TWI, learn by doing. Go do it. Go get your handsdirty, try it out. The other one is, is supplementing that.Supplementing that with articles, with you know books andreadings. Going to some of these blogs and just learning fromother people. Learning what other people are experiencing.Learning what other people are thinking and doing from you knowthought leaders in the area to practitioners. Both those are validand good places to go. Supplement your own knowledge and yourown experience of what youre going through.Joe: Is there anything that youd like to add that maybe I leftout of this conversation about Lean Accounting or TWI?Jim: Wed love to have listeners come to any of our summits.Like I said, we, theyre great learning environments and acombination of case studies, so that people that are actuallypractitioners doing it, as well as with thought leaders and thoughtleaders, some of the thought leaders are former CFOs in the caseof Lean Accounting or actually practitioners of TWI in that case,as well as with academics. So we try to really bring everybody,you know all the different gamut of knowledge under these. Theother big thing is just do it, just really start practicing andlearning about how to do that and tapping into resources, like Isaid, colleagues you may have or organizations. I know a varietyof different states and around areas have a lot of network groups. Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  14. 14. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsActually, Im located in central Indiana and theres one in centralIndiana, a Lean manufacturing group that meets once a month.So just go find, one of those, or at, get involved with them, getinvolved, learn, with what youre doing yourself, and learn youknow from others as well. And if you do that I think generallyyoull catch the fever and youll learn a lot and youll have a lot offun in doing it. And be successful too.Joe: Id like to thank you very much, Jim. The podcast will beavailable, not only on the Business901 podcast site, but also oniTunes. Again, thanks Jim, very informative, I appreciate it verymuch.Jim: I thank you. I enjoyed this well. Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901
  15. 15. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Joseph T. Dager Lean Six Sigma Black Belt Ph: 260-438-0411 Fax: 260-818-2022 Email: Web/Blog: Twitter: @business901 What others say: In the past 20 years, Joe and I have collaborated on many difficult issues. Joes ability to combine his expertise with "out of thebox" thinking is unsurpassed. He has always delivered quickly, costeffectively and with ingenuity. A brilliant mind that is always a pleasure towork with." James R.Joe Dager is President of Business901, a progressive company providingdirection in areas such as Lean Marketing, Product Marketing, ProductLaunches and Re-Launches. As a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt,Business901 provides and implements marketing, project and performanceplanning methodologies in small businesses. The simplicity of a singleflexible model will create clarity for your staff and as a result betterexecution. My goal is to allow you spend your time on the need versus theplan.An example of how we may work: Business901 could start with aconsulting style utilizing an individual from your organization or a virtualassistance that is well versed in our principles. We have capabilities toplug virtually any marketing function into your process immediately. Asproficiencies develop, Business901 moves into a coach’s role supporting theprocess as needed. The goal of implementing a system is that the processeswill become a habit and not an event. Business901 Podcast Opportunity Expert Status Introduction to Training Within Industry Copyright Business901